Unbelief = going to hell is not logical

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   Disappearingheadposted 11 years ago

   So after two years visiting this forum I think that both the fundamentalist evangelical Christian and the atheist agree on one thing. That is the existence of God cannot be proven. Therefore how can it be a logical argument that God would condemn someone for not believing the unprovable? Thus a god whose love expires at the last breath of the unbeliever is no god at all.

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      kathleenkatposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      If God is real, and Heaven is real, and Hell is real... I am sure I would be able to make the choice of accepting God or being condemned to the gates of Hell once my spirit reaches the 'afterworld.'
      
      I don't think people, particularly saying "you will go to Hell," really have any business claiming to know anything about God, especially if God is real.

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      Shadesbreathposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Dude, there are so many religions out there. If you don't like how the story was written in that one, just go with another one. Or skip them all and try to fathom the universe on your own. And why shouldn't you? Emerson wrote, "We build the sepulchers of our fathers: can we never behold the Universe as new and feel that we have a stake as much as our predecessors?" I think we can. And we should.

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         Disappearingheadposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         I like that quote from Emerson.
         
         To be honest I think I'm probably wasting my time with this post as most of the fundies appear to have left this forum.

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            Shadesbreathposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            1. You're not going to change a fundie's views anyway, so why try?
            
            2. If you just ignore them, they won't bother you.
            
            3. Live and let live. Who cares what they do? It's their life, if they want to writhe about in the contortions of righteousness, so what. If it makes them happy, good for them.
            
            4. Picking fights is not nice. Number 1 above is true, and everybody already knows it. So why troll? Yes, it can be fun, but, well, it's still not nice.

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               Quilligrapherposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               +1
               

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      SirDentposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      God is only unprovable to those who are blinded by the god of this world.  Jesus said, "I am the Way."  What happens to those who do not follow Jesus and go by Him?  Jesus also spoke of hell in Mark chapter 9. 
      
      The Bible also states that the heavens declare the glory of God.  There is plenty of proof, for those who want it.

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         A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Where is this proof? We want it.

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      udontnomiposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      God condemns no one. The gift of salvation is free. You can squander it, sell it or just give it away. It is entirely up to you. God will not force you to do anything. It is an all volunteer army.

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      Richawriterposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I think that is just something those ridiculously devout believers way back thousands of years ago added to ensure the entire race or as much of it as possible became followers of God.
      
      Undoubtedly, the original transcripts of religious material were edited and transformed into a message that better suited those zealous believers.
      
      I think we all know there is much more to this existence than those scientific principles and religious laws that govern us these days. On an intrinsic level we 'know' there is something higher than us, although we have no inkling of what that 'thing' is.
      
      We just don't like being 'told' what we should believe and that we 'must' believe when there is no conclusive evidence.
      
      Look at the state of society and our planet. Are we not already experiencing hell in some form? Well, it seems most of us are. Obviously that depends what part of the planet you live on. Still, in some form there is a 'Devil' and there is 'Hell.'
      
      Right here on this Earth!

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   jacharlessposted 11 years ago

   Yup, said a mouthful there. The god of this world is man -the Ism {science & religion}, und hence the Ego. Weird huh.

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      udontnomiposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Weird is cool.

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         thegeckoposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Not when Johnny Depp says it o.O

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            jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            How about when Jonnycomelately says it?  lol.
            
            Can I introduce another slant on this topic, please?  (don't know how to start a new Thread here, so must continue in the current thread.)
            
            Topic is this:   I have said a few times, and in other Hubs, that I can accept the possible existence of a  sort of "designer" of this finite world, but I cannot accept the existence of a judgmental god.
            
            If I can accept one and not the other, does that mean they are two different gods?

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               thegeckoposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               If God created this world, who created God?
               
               If no one created God, then why can't it be that no one created this world?

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   thegeckoposted 11 years ago

   They have found an illogical workaround for this dilemma. They call it - Faith.

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      Sinbadsailormanposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Logic Is that everything we Humans Know of Ourself would point to a Father or a Creator. A which came first the Chicken or the egg scenario. Man or GOD. The world is Not Flat. How can there be air if we can not see it. Well since Science some peoples New god has not proven God's existence let alone GOD's this is were the debate always ends up. With Belief or Faith we all have it faith, but who and what It is in is the Choice or free will decision we all have to make and this is what we are here to do. GOD is are unknowable because; HE is Undefinable, UN-Limited, and Eternal. We don't know Him even the Angels don't Know His limits or His comings or His goings. GOD clearly states this over and over. The Word of GOD is liken unto an avatar; a Mediator, that GOD speaks to and through, a SON. We know of the Son He has walked and talked amongst us. We know of His Gospels or His story. We see all that we can in this our world and still know little of It all and GOD is so much more then It. For all of It resides within in HIM. To know GOD one must seek to know HIM. One must ask HIM to reveal Himself to them. One must want to know HIM. And One must be taught of HIM by HIM! But through the Comforter the Spirit of Christ .  So one must ask of the Son to  send the Comforter whom He promised to send. GOD divorced HIS CHURCH or ISRAEL and HE is not on speaking terms with Her as of yet. So HE sent the Son. If you Have seen or therefore believe in the Son you have see the Father The Creator GOD. LOOK for the Comforter That the Son Promised to send to you to See and Know of GOD But you as a Human we never walk or Talk with HIM to do so would end your existence here in this world.

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         thegeckoposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         I don't mind you debating this... but, if you're going to use 'logic,' than please try not to use faulty logic.
         
         Yes, we cannot 'see' air (for the most part), but we can feel it and hear it. We have more senses than just sight.
         
         Evolution suggests that the egg came first. I don't even see how this is still a debate. Some species or combination evolved into a chicken. For the first chicken to come into being, there was an egg.
         
         Science use to be, and in many cases still is, a tool of the Church as well as the world at large. One of the Church's own ways to find truth. Science and religion are not always natural opposites nor do they inherently attempt to discredit one another. They're two means to find the truth.
         
         Science is not a God and I don't believe anyone we would take seriously in the scientific community would equate it that way.
         
         God is definable.. People are defining God, spirituality, and their relationship with him everyday.
         
         As far as we know, God has stated nothing. He has written nothing. He has done nothing throughout the existence of humanity. We have only the word of other people who believe they've heard God's words or seen his actions. All of which cannot be reasonably accounted for or verified.
         
         Jesus has not walked or talked amongst any of us. If he ever did, anyone he connected with died long ago.
         
         Many seek to know God and still come to the conclusion that he does not exist.

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            AEvansposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Huh? Jesus did walk the earth and he did exist, no not in this time but he was a real walking, living human being.
            
            
            
            "Many seek to know God and still come to the conclusion that he does not exist". Really? I don't know of anyone who seek to know him and have only came to the conclusion that he does not exist.
            
            ***Sigh***** Free will is amazing isn't it? We are born and we can decide which path we will take. I prefer the path of righteousness and God. God is the Alpha and Omega as written in the Bible and sadly because people do not always get their prayers answered, they denounce him. He expects that to because God is a forgiving God.
            
            But here is the deal with me when it comes to God. If there are those who do not believe then why do they call upon him? Why do they use the word so loosely when they are in trouble? If a person does not believe than they should say " Oh my Amoeba!" instead of " Oh my God!" or " God help me!" then they should say, " Oh Amoeba help me!" Wouldn't that make more sense? I debate this all of the time with some of my close friends who are non-believers and it can be an interesting conversation.
            
            I don't judge them for what they believe and tell them I will pray for them and they don't judge me for my beliefs which is in God. Nobody will ever win a debate when it comes to religion.
            
            Carry on.

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               thegeckoposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               Why do the so called 'non-believers' call out to God? Perhaps religion is so entrenched in our society that even someone who would call themselves atheist or agnostic cannot completely remove themselves from it. Like superstitions, stereotypes, or even racism.
               
               I'm not equating religion with racism or trying to give it a negative connotation. We are a product of numerous social behaviors and beliefs that many of us are not even aware of. Once raised or exposed to a set system of beliefs, it's very difficult to remove them from the Self. Not that I'm advocating people do in all cases, including religion.
               
               Another possibility? A 'hail mary.' A last resort hope that despite feeling completely alone and helpless, a supernatural being will reach out and save them. Hypocritical? Yes. Proof of God? Probably not.
               
               Free will is as disillusioning a concept as democracy in America. True free will would allow for people to make choices with equal negative and positive consequences. Free will in monotheistic religions equates to this - If one lives their life according to a 'good' set of actions and feelings, they will live with God for all eternity. If they live a life of sin, they will be damned and devoid of God for all eternity. That is not free will, that is a bad parent saying do as I say, or I will throw you out into the street forever.
               
               Many people denounce God because they truly believe he does not exist. They see the inherent contradictions in a universe where he would exist. They see all the hate, misery, randomness, and chaos. If God created the universe, he created an existence that allows for all these terrible possibilities. If he's a loving and caring God, why would he allow for all this suffering? Not the minor suffering, but children dying of starvation, genocide, mindless slaughter over territorial disputes, over culture.
               
               Without God, the world makes much more sense. Human behavior falls in line with nature, with the behavior of other animals, taken to a more sophisticated level. In this universe, good and evil as moral labels can be taken out of the equation. People can focus on reducing harm to one another, as opposed to trying to fit into an unrealistic moral code. A code that demonizes natural behaviors such as sex, greed, and violence. People begin to understand that suffering is not a condition set as a punishment from a deity, but a side effect of our natural instincts set to the extreme on a mass scale.
               
               I feel that too many people who are fundamental about religion are blind to the real world around them. Long ago they decided to take the blue pill and escape to the comfort of God's embrace.
               
               But if they took the red pill, as a large minority of us have, as did many of the founders of our country, they would probably be doing much more of 'God's work' to help make the world a better place for everyone.

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                  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  +1  Well said.

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               jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                
               And they remain your closest friends?  Wow.   I am surprised they don't become totally bored if they are non-believers.
               But then you say: 
               
               Obviously your faith is your own.   You admit you will not win the debate.  So why continue the debate?  Do you not have sufficient confirmed faith within you which can allow you just to live and let live?
               
               You have come by your faith via the road, the journey, unique to your own life.   How can you presume to know the intricacies in the lives of others?   You cannot know.   You presume that your readings of the bible and the statements you hear from your peers/pastor, etc., give you authority to push your beliefs onto others. (If you disagree with this bit then why do you debate?).  I say you do not have that authority.

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