Why was the tree of knowledge there
I read that question earlier and have been thinking about it while trying to go to sleep .... Well? Here I am ??? I was wondering what life would be like if it hadn't been?
Had we not received knowledge we wouldn’t have anything to fear or anticipate. We enjoy the quest much more than the victory We wouldn’t know enough to attempt to find the TRUTH.
What would life be like without fears and desires? What would it be like if we didn’t long for anything? OR if we had found all of the answers to our questions?
If the fruit of the tree of knowledge had not been available and we did not eat, how much enjoyment would there really be in living?
I think that NOT knowing all of the answers creates a quest for them which brings us much joy.
So If truth is what we are searching for …. And if we found it? What then would be our purpose which brings us joy?
So maybe ? too much of a good thing is not a good thing. And this was the plan all along.
Just the ramblings of a man which has been awake way too long and now going back to bed
But ? I'm interested in hearing what YOU think good night for now.I think that this is the best analogy to what Eden and earth would be like without Eve taking that bite.
Let me know if you get it.
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=the … mp;first=0
Wait for the river scene.
Regards
DLWhy Indeed? Was the Tree there in Eden? Because he fell, from Heaven or from his position in Heaven; which was to Protect the seat of Mercy, or forgiveness.
Satan is the Fallen Light Giver or Instructor of True Knowledge which he perverse, changed, and corrupted. And he did so as to claim the souls of the children of GOD for himself. So he could play god as he still tries and will do once he is again released or cast from Heaven.
Where he is now restrained by Micheal the Arched or Risen Angel of GOD promoted to the foot of the throne. Were once Lucifer Stood.
GOD creates everything with a purpose and ours was so magnificent. That some became jealous and confused as to why GOD the Father was doing it for us.
No we wouldn't be like the drones at the river of the "Time Machine" clip. for we were purposed for much greater things; other than, lounging around all day.
This is one of Satan's Lies! Six days we shall work and on the seventh we will rest with or GOD or Father and or Saviour. For He rested and saw that it was good.My opinion, which, ladies and gentlemen, is all I have, is that if Adam and Eve didn't eat the fruit, then none of us could have ever been born because they wouldn't have had children. That comes from the idea of them being innocent and ignorant before eating the fruit and gaining the knowledge.
Rufus don't take this as I am picking on you or singling you Out Many believe GOD created ADAM as a Babe ignorant. But in Fact what Adam and then Eve were Ignorant of was Evil or the Failure to repent and sin no more. Lucifer was instructed to Keep this for all of Creation It was His Charge His JOB. The very thing He was design to Do in God's Heaven.
No Adam and Eve were not Ignorant of anything except evil. Satan Got himself a death sentence in the garden. He did this by turning Eve and Then Adam or beguiling them Satan seduced Both of them into Wanting GODHOOD which was the very Sin That Lucifer committed and would Not repent From. There was No Apple or even a Fig a natural fruit except that of the ability to create a New Soul which Satan did not Have until He Laid with EVE.No. I don't mind you explaining me your opinion or giving me new information. I enjoy it, and it provides me an opportunity to think.
I do mind, however, that you are saying you are absolutely correct and everyone else is wrong. We're all entitled to believe what we want. For example, I don't believe what you're saying. Although, to be honest, I haven't fully examined it. So, we'll see.
But, right off, it doesn't go well. If Adam and Eve are part of the evil 1/3 that were cast out, and they are also created in God's image, then God is evil? Or, when they were cast out of the garden and God said they had become as Gods, then all the Gods are evil? Unless you would like to clarify for me.I don't ask that you believe me In fact I would warn you not to believe Me or any other with Out going to the source of the truth of all things. I am not a great believer of any one source except The One Jesus Promised to send the Comforter has straighten Much of the Bible and the works of others out for Me. And The Comforter will do so for you Also. Ask Father Through Jesus to Send Him And you shall receive Knock upon the door and It shall be opened. Seek your Own salvation with Fear or reverence and trembling a sense of loss If you Fail to connect to the truth. Awaken the sleeping giant within sort of speak. The truth is out There! No my friend it is within You and your Heart as you begin to seek as you have never sought before.
That's a good answer. Thanks.
I would say, I have done exactly that. And the Holy Ghost, aka the Comforter, has told me that Adam and Eve were the first of God's children to take part in his plan to come to the earth, obtain bodies, and be tempted of Satan in order to learn and grow and to prove to God that they were worthy of exaltation.
So, like I say, that's good advice. I agree with you 100%.
Scripture isn't clear on this issue. They don't say from this day forward you will bear chindren; but does say from this day forward you will suffer pain in child birth.
I kinda think that the story of A & E and the tree somehow is connected to a transition from the spiritual life into the physical realm. I can't explain this very well, it just seems right to me.
going to keep reading through these posts ... thanks Everyone for giving your thoughts.Yeah you're right. There isn't any scripture that explicitly says it. It's more of an observation based on what happens and in which order it happens. They don't have children until after they're cast out. But, as always, interpreting scripture can be... Tricky?
I agree. They call it "The Fall", but I don't think it was a bad fall. I think it's called the Fall because of their "spiritual death", that is, being separated from God and obtaining physical, mortal bodies.
The tree of knowledge of good and evil was there because it was and is still part of God's creation. Don;t forget the fact that everything both visible and invisible was created by the same God. Without that tree, creation is incomplete.
Well said. And the epitome of creation is a human being. The sum-substance of all the Days in one perfect form. Knowledge was necessary in order for him to understand and manage this intricate creation called earth --all its parts, and perhaps other worlds. The Tree of Life also there, so man would enjoy that creation without end.
James.Are you jokers so delusional that you actually thing a tree can give knowledge of damned near everything; as good and evil applies to just about everything you can think of. Try it to confirm this. Come up with three things or issues that are not subject to good and evil.
Regards
DLArgumentative, I move to strike! My statement was not said in jest.Now, who is not being intellectual honest? The Trees are metaphoric. Knowledge applies to everything.Nature is not conditional to good-evil. Logic is not conditional to good-evil. Not even Knowledge itself, from where good-evil {Reason} comes, is truly subject to good-evil. Yet good-evil is subject to them all. Three for three. Ding! Pick it up. Figure that one out genius.
James.
It's an allegory: God wanted man to live ignorantly blissful to the knowledge of good and evil, He wanted man to not analyze, categorize, and personalize views.
Once the snake, a cynical facet of the human mind, convinced them to question the fruit - the universe - it began an endless conquest for more knowledge. What we value as knowledge is just a means to disconnect us from the world, one another, and God, so we can selfishly consider our owm place in the world.
Eve thought the fruit tasted better than the rest, she noticed her chest was different than Adams, and both became uncertain - embarrassed - about their personal differences.
They were never immortal, they just lacked the knowledge of time - material decay - and judgment of it being good or evil, effectively living eternally never knowing - never having - a disconnect from God.
- Emile Rposted 12 years ago
0As with any good allegorical story, there are many ways to view it. I think you are right on many levels.
But, I don't think you would even know you had a good thing without the bite. You wouldn't know anything. The story prior to that action was presented through the eyes of God. I see the bite as not the first independent action, but the first independent action that was recognized as such and put into perspective by a human.
She was aware of the action of the bite. By being aware of the bite she recognized 'the here and now'. She created a separation between that moment and the actions that preceded it, this creating the past. By considering the ramifications of the bite, and making the decision to bring Adam along for the ride she was planning for the future. I think her story represents the beginning of the concept of time.
Knowledge is, first and foremost, information acquired through experience. The bite was the first action recognized as experience.
Prior to the bite, maybe the two humans represented in the story were content but they couldn't have known it. Nor did they have even the most rudimentary tools necessary to know anything else.You seem to agree with the Jewish take of Eden being man's elevation and not the fall that Christians later gave it.
Respect grows.
The latest I have seen of the Jewish midrash is that they see God creating desire for all knowledge in man.
Before that, as you say, man would have been too stupid to know he was stupid.
Regards
DLEmile R
I think you are right. this is an allegorical story, similar to what you/we described. It should be seen as a rise and not a fall. I also think that the"Fall" of mankind could have as easily been translated as "coming down". A Third of the children of God came down to inhabit the physical form which they/we created. .... "Let US make man in our image". ... They/we "came down" in shifts.
without having eaten from the tree ?...? Life wouldn't have had much of a purpose.
Here is my point of view regarding the tree of knowledge.
For the first time ever a being that had never existed before had now been created (Man). Providing this being with a number of attributes one of which is the freedom to choose that was something God wanted to test. Adam and Eve were not robots and so they were free to either follow God or go their own way and it is my belief that the tree of knowledge was there as the catalyst for making that determination.So it was God's will or theirs and the moment they chose their will over God's, he decided to murder them by neglect by hiding away the tree of life.
Quite the murdering prick that God.
Regards
DLFrom the God prospective ... is it murder to bring the child home earlier than first intended?
I don't think murder is the right word from that prospectiveJust like it was not murder for God to plan the murder of his son even before man was created. Or harden Pharaoh's heart so that he could flex his muscles and kill the innocent first born.
Murder is exactly the word when one intentionally let's their children die.
Just because you do not want to use that word, it is still the right word.
You cannot see from God's perspective so try that B S where it might fly.
Regards
DLQuite a narrow mind to accuse the sustainer of all that exists on a secondly basis. If you can grasp a glimpse of the magnitude of existence that is.
Death is a term for the physical aspect of their life only, and He has right to do with things as He pleases. Do tell what He done with their spirit once their bodies vanished?
God is not subject to the term murder sir, He is capable of saving the soul, we are not. You judge based on a purely physical understanding which screws up the whole perception just as if you judged what was in a house by what you saw in a single window. Would be silly wouldn't it?
Well you're doing just that.
Regards
VectorProve he is the sustainer of anything.
"Death is a term for the physical aspect"
Yet your bible says the soul can die. Try reading it.
"He has right to do with things as He pleases."
"God is not subject to the term murder sir,"
Not biblical. Quote it or be seen as a liar.
"He is capable of saving the soul, we are not."
Again, you do not know your own bible.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Are you not able to repent?
"You judge based on a purely physical understanding "
Not at all. By both my physical and spiritual understanding.
If this is your best apologetics then you get a fail.
Regards
DLI think ego is the obstacle for you.
Perhaps you know the Bible well enough to know pride is Satan's initial sin. Yet you blunder on with self promotion as the great i am.
And you have no understanding of the spirit beyond what God gives. You are about as knowledgeable of the spirit as a fly is of physics.
I don't need to defend the Bible, it does that itself and God controls the outcome.
As for proving God sustains anything, take a breath. If you don't believe the air came from Him or the sunlight that supports all life, you'll find out soon enough in due time.
And concerning your regards, the very sentiment contradicts your words which I think is silly. It isn't in the least intelligent, considerate, nor proper.
It was the point I was attempting to make in my prior post with the example.
And don't call me a liar for not quoting text. I am no liar, sir. You are being petty and attempting low blows. Do you require such methods?The usual Christian doge.
No wonder the churches are on a downslide.
Done here.
Regards
DLSo much for elaboration. There is no dodge, and I'm not your usual Christian.
What exactly is your point to make here? That God is evil?
If you are done here it is because you are on sinking sand sir.
If you cannot make your point because it lacks validity simply state it. The sarcastic remark and stereotypical accusation does your argument no good.
Would you clarify the quoted scripture and how you were using it to explain? I don't think I understand how you used it to prove him wrong.
2 Peter 3;9 ?
It is quite clear that repentance is the key to salvation.
He did not provide any quotes to back up what he said and just went into insult mode.
Typical for modern Christian who are poor apologists.
I do not think it is to us to prove fools wrong. It is to them to back up what they say when they make definitive statements.
Regards
DLI don't need to open my Bible and pull another verse if I so choose.
I said God is able to save the willing soul, those of whom accept the gift of help, and you supplied the very verse that proves that statement.
You did not disprove anything. You made it utterly clear that God is indeed able to save the soul.
As for my insults, I apologise as they are insulting to a degree it seems. But it's somewhat harder for me to be kind with you throwing insults at every post you submit.
But just to clarity things and so we don't hear another "...you do not know your own Bible." here are some scriptures for you and everyone else reading.
Matthew 16:25
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
This verse makes it very clear God is capable of saving the soul. For you cannot lose a life except it be your physical life and still live.
Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
It is blatently obvious God does what He pleases and is able to save any soul that so deserves it, or destroy any soul He sees fit. Whether the destruction is eternal or not is of no consequence to the point at hand, although I hold it is. The point rather, is that He does what He pleases with the soul, is able to do so, and can save any soul from "destruction" which leaves only one option, life.
Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment;
So the soul can "die" or be "destroyed" I agree and never disagreed except for the definition of death I hold is a worse outcome than yours which is oblivion. But the fact still remains that the death of the physical body is not the end of a man or woman's life and the soul goes to God to be judged accordingly, meaning again, He can save any soul that deserves it according to His perfect judgement.
As for me being a fool, I may be a fool, but I try to be humble. The thing that bothers me is that you are so proud in your insults against the Bible.
No matter, I will try to be kind from here on if I respond to you, because whether I like it or not you were right that I insulted you and whether you deserve insults or not it isn't my place to entertain them. It's my place to be kind.
But, though I'll admit you were right in part concerning me, I'll never admit you are right concerning your ill thoughts pertaining to God or His Holy Bible.
God is good. He always was, and He always will be.Sure. Tell that to those he has murdered all; over the bible. He is a good murderer.
I did not dispute that your imaginary God is said to be able to save souls.
I showed his moral method as far as scriptures are concerned.
My dispute is with you trying to profit from God having his own son needlessly murdered. Human sacrifice is immoral and so are you if you try to profit from it. Jesus said to pick up your cross/burden and follow him. Not to add to his with you and your burden. Scapegoating is immoral and so are you if you try to profit from it.
Regards
DLI see nothing noteworthy of a full response.
I rest my case.So, instead of repeating ourselves over and over, we should really talk about what "morality" means, because that seems to be the base of your argument, is that correct? You think that, according to our society's definition of morality, that God is immoral?
Absolutely.
Vector believes that human sacrifice is moral and that it is also moral for him to try to profit from the murder of an innocent man.
I do not.
Here is part of the logic to support my position. He has nothing to support his.
Thomas Paine, in Age of Reason, wrote:
If I owe a person money, and cannot pay him, and he threatens to put me in prison, another person can take the debt upon himself, and pay it for me. But if I have committed a crime, every circumstance of the case is changed. Moral justice cannot take the innocent for the guilty even if the innocent would offer itself. To suppose justice to do this, is to destroy the principle of its existence, which is the thing itself. It is then no longer justice. It is indiscriminate revenge.
This single reflection will show that the doctrine of redemption is founded on a mere pecuniary idea corresponding to that of a debt which another person might pay; and as this pecuniary idea corresponds again with the system of second redemptions, obtained through the means of money given to the church for pardons, the probability is that the same persons fabricated both the one and the other of those theories; and that, in truth, there is no such thing as redemption; that it is fabulous; and that man stands in the same relative condition with his Maker he ever did stand, since man existed; and that it is his greatest consolation to think so.
Emphasis mine.
So not only is the killing of an innocent man immoral, but it shows that the redemption allegory being used is that of a financial debt. Which is an interesting parallel to the practice of purchasing 'pardons'.
[It is] not good that the man should be alone ; I will make him an help meet for him. (Gen. 2:18) KJV Story book
Free will to me is the ability to make a choice without coercion.
A choice made while under coercion, (especially under threat of pain and suffering), is not a freely made choice, ergo it is not free will. In fact there is a name for it; it's called extortion and it is a criminal offense precisely for the reason that it is not a free choice but a forced one.
"Extortion (also called shakedown, outwresting, and exaction) is a criminal offence which occurs when a person unlawfully obtains either money, property or services from a person(s), entity, or institution, through coercion. Refraining from doing harm is sometimes euphemistically called protection. Extortion is commonly practiced by organized crime groups. The actual obtainment of money or property is not required to commit the offense. Making a threat of violence which refers to a requirement of a payment of money or property to halt future violence is sufficient to commit the offense." Wikipedia
"Test all things"
1 Thessalonians. 5:21
No noble and gracious God would demand the sacrifice of a so called son just to prove it's benevolence.
Regards
DLEverything you quoted and said makes complete sense... when looking at it under the system we're currently in. To clear the confusing assumption, we should point out that probably most Christians think that God abides by some other system that is not ours. Therefore, to us it is murder, but to him it is a sacrifice.
Therefore, we really need to determine what "moral system" God abides by. Does he abide by ours or some other one? I wonder if Ethical Absolutism applies here? Because it sounds like you are saying that our current moral system is the correct moral system that should apply to everyone everywhere, including God. Am I correct in saying you believe that? I do not think that Christians agree with that form of "ethical absolutism". They probably agree in "ethical absolutism", but the absolute moral system would come from God, and not man.
For example, the ten commandments said, Thou shall not kill. But if someone practice witchcraft, they were condemned to death. Obviously, there is some "higher law" or "higher moral system" that God is following.
I hope that makes sense to clear up the assumption.
So. The next question: What moral system does God abide by?None that would make any sense if murder or condemned to death were considered sacrifice. Seems such a "moral system" would be one held only by dictators and despots.
And yet until they ate from the tree ????? Until they received knowledge ? How did they "KNOW" what disobedience was? How did they know of the consequences?
How did God know his experiment was successful unless he saw that Adam and Eve use their free will in eating from the tree? Kinda like a toy maker, he builds his toy, winds it up and points it in a direction. If the toy maker gave his toy free will to change directions or NOT; It the toymaker didn't see the toy deviate from the direction it was headed, He wouldn't know if the free will part of the program works. So, Adam and Eve had to eat of the fruit of the tree in order for God to see that free will was working.It was God's plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.
If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?
God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.
This then begs the question.
What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?
Only an insane God. That’s who.
The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.
One of Christianity's highest form of immorality is what they have done to women.
They have denied them equality and subjugated them to men.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqN8EYII … re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dspWh9g … re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c0RFxXr … re=related
Regards
DLThe foundations of the earth do not translate to mean before the earth was made. It translates to mean after the earth was made, a period during which Adam was in existence.
Many scholars agree, the true meaning was speaking of a time after the Inception, when Plan B was put into motion. Again, safeguards are generally put into place, even by humans, just in case something happens. So to say "it was Gods plan to have Moshiach crucified" from jump street, in a manner of malicious intent which you have suggested on several occasions, is unfounded. The sacrificial requirement did not come into view until Issac, the First Born of the Covenant of Abram. It was not the original plan, it was the backup plan brought about by the necessity of law, of covenant, of restriction resulting from the Inception and a complete recovery plan.
James.From a God who is said to know all.
Twist scriptures all you like but you cannot get away from the fact that your God promoted the human sacrifice of his own son when he had many moral options.
Do you believe it to be good justice to punish the innocent instead of the guilty?
Regards
DLI just wanted to add an amen to what you are saying Greatest I am. Also, When God booted Adam and Eve out of the garden he gave them commandments that he knew they would not be able to keep (remember God knows all) and when they did not keep his commandments, he sent a flood to kill all the world except for 8 souls. No offense to everyone, but that is not the god I wish to believe in. There are bullies who are better behaved than that
That has always bothered me too. The only thing that sense to me would be that when God said "US" make man (Physical form) in "OUR" own image ... we did.
He was talking to the sons of God. You know ? Sometimes called angels.
We came down and took physical form, bringing with us everything that we knew about the universe and everything in it. That just didn't work at that time nor will it work at any time in the future.
Had to wipe the slate clean and start all over. Second go round, we only know what we learn here on earth. We pass what we have learned down to the next generation.
If we are spiritual beings who have temporarily put on physical form, this makes sense to me.
But if we are physical beings who grow or produce a spirit, then nothing makes sense to megood point. Lets look at the end game and see where the God of the bible stands. When Jesus comes back, the book of Revelation says that every knee will bow and every tongue confess jesus or they will be destroyed and sent to everlasting burning. Sounds like a God who is a dictator and it is his way or the highway. Where is the love in that? Again, I am sorry but that is not the God I wish to believe in. I believe that the real God wants us to choose paths that lead us to happiness. Lets begin with being tolerant of others beliefs and not judge them. If God sends some of us to hell in the next life, let it be God that does it not a self righteous religious person.
Tolerance is good but too much of it is not. Many say live and let live but that would mean turning a blind eye to injustice.
It is my view that all literalists and fundamentals hurt all of us who are Religionists.
They all hurt their parent religions and everyone else who has a belief. They make us all into laughing stocks and should rethink their position. There is a Godhead but not the God of talking animals, genocidal floods and retribution. Belief in fantasy is evil.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HKHaClU … playnext=1
They also do much harm to their own.
African witches and Jesus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlRG9gXr … re=related
Jesus Camp 1of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBv8tv62yGM
Promoting death to Gays.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMw2Zg_B … re=related
For evil to grow my friends, all good people need do is nothing.
Fight them when you can. It is your duty to our fellow man.
Regards
DLYeah. That does sound pretty bad. In the end, God is comparable to the law. And they say the law is blind. Either you stole that watch or you didn't. It doesn't matter if you just really needed to know what time it was, or if your life depended on it. If you stole the watch, your guilty. But then, Jesus is comparable to a Judge. And Judges are known for giving people breaks. If you go to court for a speeding ticket that you got because your wife was about to give birth and you sped to the hospital, the Judge would give you a break. That's how I see it. Though, in the end, it makes Jesus look nicer than God. But God is just because he doesn't make exceptions, he requires the same from everyone.
Thanks Edward
Keep thinking your way.
Regards
DL
Agreed. There is no Plan B for a God who knows all. That explanation doesn't fit that description of God. Following that logic, God did plan from before the Earthly existence for Jesus to be sacrificed because he knew Adam and Eve would sin.
The answer to your question comes from the Mormons. God put us through this so we could come and obtain a physical body, that must die and then be resurrected. It's two step process that is necessary for man to be exalted. Death is a step, like a step in a chemical reaction, that leads to a creation of something else. Is that a better answer? ;p
Everything else you said makes complete sense.Here we go I always try and I fail so often so let me put as plainly as I can.
Satan was in The Garden, It was Satan that was being tested! There are not two Sides of man or even an EGO of Will against Mans own will this is the whispering of Satan and the Fallen Angels that mankind hears not a split or duel personality EGO is Satan in the spirit form as are his comrades.
Adam was Not the only Human upon the earth Adam was in the Fallen third of Heaven Now know as Paradise. Where all souls for earth go to await Judgment. After the Millennium. Satan is GOD's Adversary because he and his comrades have refused repentance. And they seek to do to Us here shortly what they did to get this whole thing going in the first place. Satan was sentence he alone in the Garden after the beguiling of Eve the divided Adam whom the Devil was afraid to Confront in His singular Form as an equal to the Fallen Lucifer. The new Light source that was given for the fallen whom were placed into the flesh. Satan when he was Lucifer Was charged to protect the Mercy Seat which is the very place we all go to be forgiven an instructed. This is Why he Satan is been sentence to Die Satan is the Son of perdition and at this point in time is the only one sentenced to Die or to parish from GOD's Memory. the War is all about POWER and Principals. and it is between GOD and Satan and the Fallen Angels who did not choose to be birth into the Flesh by way of the woman form that Satan beguiled. It is an easy Story to understand when you Ask with A contrite Heart and A belief in a Loving Father. Ask an you shall receive, knock and the door shall be opened.Wait... This is in response to my post? I don't get it. What you just said has something to do with what I said? Sorry
That confused me big time!Yes these Flesh Bodies will not rise again as did Lazarus did in the flesh. When Christ returns He will return in the form of the Father; with all of the 2/3 of Heaven that did not Fall.
He will no longer be in a flesh Body. As we will no longer be in flesh bodies. It is given to man to walk this earth in these bodies only once!
On the Lords Day all flesh that remains will be return unto their GOD GIVEN BODIES or a spiritual body. The way we were created from the Beginning.Ooo. Thanks. That makes it clearer for me. I think I understand better what you're saying, although I don't agree.
I think physical bodies are an essential part of God's plan. That is why Christ was resurrected. That is why it is said that everyone else will be resurrected also.
But our opinions differ from the very beginning. I believe the 1/3 were cast off and were denied the chance to obtain bodies since they refused God's plan. They remain spirits and will always remain spirits.And that is because of what the Mormon's have taught you. As I give little credence to their Teachings.
I rank them up there or down there with the Jehovah Witnesses teachings or the Muslims for Christ revealed to us All Things! Unto us through the Prophets of Old, the Apostles, and Himself and then Sealed It with It is Finished!
So NO I yield not to the Mormons, the J.W.s, or to the Muslims. Nothing after John the Apostle of Christ. And those before if they have counteractions to any of these that I have mentioned. For there were Anti-Christs even back then.
For indeed their teaching come after the Likes of Christ and the Prophets of Old as well as after the Apostles. Even worst would be all this New age Crap or even Oprah Winfrey's new church.
They Don't hold Sweet Water they are mixed with Bitter waters.
Rufus
Why would a resurrected body deserve more than one that does not die?
What is the benefit of dying?
Where are all these resurrected walking dead?
Regards
DLI dunno. Maybe it's necessary, like a purifying process during a chemical reaction?
Adam and Eve's bodies were immortal, but they ate the fruit which made them mortal, so resurrection turns us back to immortal. So, I guess, we die because of that consequence, but then Jesus fixed that also by providing the resurrection?
Well... Not everyone is resurrected. Not until the second coming? I guess God is and Jesus is and some other random people. I don't know. Where does everyone else think God and Jesus are? If we want to get deep, maybe they live on some other planet?Read genesis again for the first time my friend.
A & E are never shown as being immortal when created. The tree of life was to give that gift. That is why God prevented access to it and in effect, murdered A & E by neglect.
Today we jail those who murder their children by neglect, think J W and blood transfusions. Strange that Christians adore their God for what we jail people for doing.
Regards
DLThat is silly.
For them to die because they ate of the tree they would have to have been incapable of dying prior to eating of it. Otherwise there would be no point in saying, the day you eat of it you will surely die. Nor would there be any point in the serpent telling them they would not die opposing the commandment made by God. Obviously from judging by the innumerable countless numbers of dead human beings the serpent is a liar.
Your words are a twisted delusion of what is the truth. It would make no sense to create something in order to to erase it all with no gain.
Your hatred for God is outlined in the Bible as well in Genesis 3:15. There are only two directions to walk, to God and good, and away from Him and evil. Your hatred is as obvious as the daylight pouring from the core of the sun of this solar system.
I'll repeat the beginning of this post. The words you're spewing are silly and they are falsehoods.Yeah. What vector7 points out is good logic.
It was after they ate of the tree that God cast them out of the garden and guarded the Tree of Life so they wouldn't be able to eat it, become immortal again, and live forever in their sins.
Neglect might be the wrong word, because he did provide a way for them to recover from that.Victor---Rufus
Moral questions for both of you.
Did A & E die or did God kill them by not allowing them to eat of what would keep them alive?
If A J W withhold a blood transfusion and their child dies, did they die naturally or where they murdered by omission?
If either of you have a child crying for food and you do not feed it and it dies, are you not culpable for the death of that child if it starves to death?
Regards
DLYup. It's murder by omission. Why do you ask?
Because I am not sure just where your head is at in terms of belief or non-belief. We seem to be on the same page sometimes but other times not.
As to Victor. I want to see if he can think out of his dogmatic box.
Regards
DLSorry, but I don't think Vector can think out of his dogmatic box. He never has as far as I can tell.
Tree of Knowing. Intelligence. Information Elite.
It was there, in my opinion, to enable the Tree of Life unlimited.
There to provide complete understanding of the workings of all systems on earth.
With this information, perfectly executed and not requiring further scrutiny, change, manipulation or splicing, the Immortal Human had, quite believably, the perfect existence. Able to understand the beauty of a drop of water suspended in air and why it was wet. Not just to know it, but to enjoy the awesomeness of it.
Creator even says he designed humans, nd the worlds, it to reveal himself.
The entity he designed to be that revelation was a human.
Beside the Tree of Knowledge sits/sat the Tree of Life Eternal.
Working together, side by side, in the same place -inside the human, to allow the human to remain thoroughly immortal even while living in a moral environment. An infinite connection to the finite.
What would life be like had that scrutiny, that splicing, manipulation, indulgence come about? Well, I have often wondered this. The image that seems to jump out is: other worlds. Yes, other worlds where humans would be caretakers. Was earth the training ground for the first of Immortals, in preparation for more immortals? Am not certain, because prior to the Inception, procreation is not mentioned. In actuality, Adam was androgynous, until Creator found him lonely. So, He did to Adam what He did to himself, made a reflection.
JamesI just don't understand how death of a physical body which returns the soul back to where it came is a bad thing. It is going to happen eventually. I guess it can be said to be a punnishment "IF" it happens before its preordained time is spent. Those suffering the most are those who will miss them.
That would depend on if a souls is bound for heaven or hell.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc
Better to shovel coal in hell than to spend eternity in heaven watching friends, neighbors and our children in torture and flame forever.
Only a sick mind would conceive of such a situation or wish it upon anyone. That is why God would not do such because then, heaven would be hell.
If those in heaven did not go insane then they could not have once been human or good.
You should think of hell just a bit and recognize that God would not create such an immoral construct. If you believe in hell, lose your barbaric tribal mentality. We are in 2012, not 112.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9FKn4rK … re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTpJ8PGT … re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaL7CkQa … re=related
Regards
DLI don't believe in hell the way that it has been translated and interpreted. Punishment of sorts YEP, if you consider NOT getting any rewards as punishment.
I'd have to say that I agree with John Spong on this one.
There is definately a difference between being religious and believing in God.
Those who are making the assertion that God is nothing more than a murderer clearly are confused and or possibly blind to the truth.
The death of Jesus Christ was brought about by the Sins Of Mankind we are responsible for Jesus death. It is not God that Jesus was dying for it was man. If mankind had chosen not to be so sinful then Jesus would not have had to go to the cross.
One other point if Jesus did not accept going to the cross mankind would not be around to argue that point for Jesus was the only qualified sacrifice in the universe.So said God when he put the bounty on his own son's life.
Thr act of an insane God as he could and did forgive sin before Jesus was even born. Then again, myths cannot be born.
Put your bloodthirsty pagan ears to these. Listen. Learn.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoHP-f-_F9U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ott15j2 … re=related
It was God's plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.
If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?
God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.
This then begs the question.
What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?
Only an insane God. That’s who.
The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.
One of Christianity's highest form of immorality is what they have done to women.
They have denied them equality and subjugated them to men.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqN8EYII … re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dspWh9g … re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c0RFxXr … re=related
------------------------
Christians, like you have done here, are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.
That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."
But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.
If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin.
Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.
Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.
Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.
Evil then is only human to human.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.
Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.
This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.
Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from. God or nature.
There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.
http://www.youtube.com/user/ProfMTH#g/c … F680C1DBEB
Regards
DLWhat an interesting and strange post. Have you given this topic much thought? Perhaps a little critical thinking would be in order. Ask yourself if your post makes sense.
Why would a God need a sacrifice? It makes no sense. Was it punishment? Was he punishing us? Or was Jesus just a martyr?
Why didn't God reveal himself to the whole world? Why did his peers not believe he was the son of God? Why did he only reveal that he had risen from the dead to his only followers?
Jesus dying as he did reveals more about the God you follow than mankind. Or perhaps it reveal how primitive the story was and they picked up the idea of a sacrifice from older religions.S S
Just in love with human sacrifice while ignoring many of the bible quotes that speak against it.
You be a blood thirsty fool just as your God would be if as you describe.
Regards
DL
Once again ignoring the ills of evil that men do and pointing the finger in the wrong direction when it should be pointed at us.
Apparently you have never read the history of man-if you want to talk blood thirsty there you will find life saturated with it.
Why don't you talk about the murders, killing the rapes, lying, stealing that mankind does every day of every year generation after generation?? And you' re talking like our hands are clean what a laugh!
"If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?"
Why put hazard signs on drums being transported, why put fences up in one yard when they have young kids? People aren't doing anything better
or more then God-Please.Shall we compare your genocidal God's morality with ours?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCovYF51 … ature=fvwp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c0RFxXr … re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94f2h-5T … r_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx7irFN2gdI
--------------------------------------
""If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?"
Why put hazard signs on drums being transported, why put fences up in one yard when they have young kids? People aren't doing anything better
or more then God-Please.
----------------------------
I have no problem with signs and warnings. I do have a problem with God having his son needlessly murdered. That is insane when he had other options. That is scripture.
Listen. Learn.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoHP-f-_F9U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ott15j2 … re=related
Regards
DL
It is not about whether you care if they have signs on drums or not based on your analogy if God doesn't anticipate a problem why provide a solution. When people are shipping hazardous material they don't anticipate a problem so why bother putting signs on drums?
You remain with your blinders on how many deaths has humans caused through human action how is it that you keep ignoring that? What does it take for you to see the evil that we generate on this planet? Examine the horrific experience of the nuclear bomb at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Do you know that those involved with creating this horrible bomb-(the scientists) signed a petition for our government to present a demonstration of this bomb someplace where people would not be harmed rather than dropping it on a populated area. But we are so much better than God we chose to ignore that advice and obliterate those people-and you think you can compare the evil we do like we are somehow so much better-what a bunch of crock.I indicated above that evil was human against human from the POV of not having been created.
If your God created me then I am his responsibility be I good or evil.
As scriptures say in the Esau story, God either loved or hated me in the womb. God hated Esau in the womb because he knew what Esau would do beforehand. He created him to do evil.
Your all knowing God had to know what was coming and knew that Eve would eat and made sure by putting Satan or the talking snake there to insure it would be as it ended up.
Either follow the logic of your own myth or read it literally. You cannot have it both ways and if you believe that God created us then you have to believe he knows what he is doing.
Comparing your imaginary God to man is just plain old stupid.
When did God put Satan in Eden?
If you want to compare that to what man does, then why would a farmer put a fox in the hen house and then be surprised when a hen gets eaten?
Regards
DLDL, could it be instead that God hated Esau because of something he had already done?
God's children are created in His image and likeness and God is not Homo sapiens. God is immortal. Would His children also be immortal? Likely they would be, unless they bit of the fruit of knowledge of physical continuity and dichotomy (good-evil).
As immortals, we do not die. As fallen immortals, we remain dead asleep. Homo sapiens is a tool for our rescue. God loves His children; not the bodies they wear.The God of ants is an ant.
The God of lions is a lion.
The God of man should be a man.
Not some alien.
That is why Jesus said, ye are Gods.
You can follow a man. You cannot follow a God described as un-knowable, un-fathomable and works in mysterious ways.
You cannot know his ways so what are you following if not the words of men and thus, men?
Regards
DLIncorrect! We are Humans/ Fallen Angels wrapped in flesh Bodies. Jesus Said We are GOD's as we all belong to HIM.
We are HIS possessions. All Souls belong to GOD the Father and GOD the Creator of All things; seen and unseen.
If you were a god you would not fail so well and so often. In either the spiritual form from which you fell or in these flesh bodies in which we reside.
We all belong to GOD and we all shall return to HIM, but we all shall not choose to stay with HIM. "Free Will" what a Pill and a hard one to swallow.So God is the ultimate slave owner.
Ok.
How many of us do you think insane enough to choose torture and burning in hell after God finally becomes honest with us and gives us the full disclosure that he has denied us? Like his presence?
Especially when scriptures say that most of us will end in hell.
As to your free will deflection.
Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.
That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."
But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.
If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin.
Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.
Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.
Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.
Evil then is only human to human.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.
Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.
This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.
Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from. God or nature.
There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.
http://www.youtube.com/user/ProfMTH#g/c … F680C1DBEB
Regards
DLYou need to refocus on one thing! You need to get to Know the Creator our Father and not the little god of this world who pretends to be. You seem to be confused to whom GOD is and Why we are here in the first place.
I have no need to protect GOD He is very capable of that. But you have already laid blame on Father falsely and incorrectly. You have a poor knowledge of who and how He is and why He is.
Or even why we are yet here and being treated as we Are. Learn the Story by asking the Author of It. Humble thy self before thy Father and See the Truth of the Matter.
GOD is Not battling the evilness of Flesh Men! This is but a passing phase these bodies are a teaching aid. Nothing more nothing less. It is the fallen Soul that is being accused of and being so accused of by the Fallen Light Giver.
The Father of Lies and the Adversary of GOD is not nor has it ever been MAN or Mankind! It has always been Satan and his fallen comrades. Who refuse to repent and sin no more.
Safeguards brother you have much to re-learn.
Donnie/ Sinbad the Sailor Man
Ooh. Once again, that answer is from the Mormons. God is a man. Your logic is correct! Otherwise, the phrase "he created us in his own image" is wrong. God is simply an exalted man. God is not his name, but a title to reflect his position. Right on!
Thanks.
We seem to agree on some things but not on others.
The Mormons religion was born the same way all other religions basically were. This clip shows the basic process.
http://www.milkandcookies.com/link/59507/detail/
Regards
DLOh yeah. Probably. I was just offering a rather different opinion than the ones normally given. The history of the Mormon church is quite confusing and I can't really say what really happened (since I obviously wasn't there) but I really like most of the doctrine. It makes more sense.
If you want to make sense of the O T then you would have to take the view of the originators, the Jews. You will note that their way of looking at it makes sense as compared to what Christianity sees since they reversed much of the Jewish thinking.
Further, the Jews knew that they had written myths. Only Christians and Muslims are silly enough to read their scriptures literally.
As a Gnostic Christian, I believe that all scriptures were written to stimulate discussions about Gods. Not point to any one particular God.
Seek God my friend but not the prick that Christianity is trying to sell.
Regards
DLSo, by what you say, did the Jews really follow what is written about the Law of Moses, or that was just... A myth?
The idea that just because God knows the end from the future makes you responsible for our behavior isn't how I see it.
Are the parents to blame for "Ted Kaczynski-Unibomber." "Timothy McVeigh.", "Machine Gun Kelly", the guy who just shot up the theater in Colorado, Columbine, etc.
As parents we can pretty much understand the steps our children are taking in life however knowing that are we responsible should they choose a life of crime?
Having free will means nothing if I am to dictate, intervene in the ones life!Again you hide behind being human and compare human actions to a fully informed God.
I spoke above of a human farmer and asked a question.
Stop jumping all over the place trying to bob and weave away from the argument or ignore me.
I do not have time for your games thanks to you being a poor apologist.
Finish something before opening something else just because the going gets tough.
Regards
DLTired of my games as you put it-Good cause I was tired of your "God like attitude a long time ago--the idea someone who thinks himself with having all the answers when you can't answer the questions why don't people stop killing, stop raping...you aren't bring anything new or old to the table."
Good question, @SpanStar.
Why don't people stop violence and evil?
Ego, that's why.
Ego is the physical self we use instead of our true selves (immortal soul, Holy Spirit), within. Ego is all about selfishness and self-centeredness.
We find ego in the tyrant who cannot stand others to criticize. We find ego in the suffering suicide perpetrator because of all the things the world has done to them. We find ego in the little old lady who must go to Church every Sunday and wouldn't be caught dead talking to a prostitute or homeless bum.
Ego is matrix of dichotomies -- good-evil, wisdom-stupidity, generous-selfish, compassion-indifference, confidence-doubt and more. Ego is victim-perpetrator. Within every victim is a piece of the perpetrator who suffers to lash out. Within every perpetrator there is a piece of the victim who suffers to lash out.
When one takes on perfect humility, ego disappears. One is no longer a victim to anything. One thus returns to the viewpoint of spirit -- child of God.
This is the purpose of God creating Homo sapiens, civilization and religion -- a massive rescue mission.
Genesis says that God created man twice (Genesis 1:26 and 2:7). First was in His image and likeness; second was from the dust of the ground. Thus man has a dual nature -- immortal spirit wrapped in Homo sapiens flesh. When the rescue is complete, God will no longer strive with man, because he also is flesh (Genesis 6:3).
After that time, Homo sapiens will revert to the laws of physical reality without the creative skills of forgiveness, forbearance, inspiration and the like. Man will revert to action-reaction continuity -- wailing and gnashing of victim-perpetrator and blood feuds.
But that's just the bodies without their souls, or with souls who have denied their true selves and opted to stay behind in the dark well of physical reality.S S
It is the old shit in your heads that is preventing new ideas.
You compare God and man all the time. Do so here and your question is answered since your dogma prevents you from thinking or answering my simple question of the farmer and the hen house.
Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.
That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."
But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.
If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin.
Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.
Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.
Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.
Evil then is only human to human.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.
Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.
This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.
Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from. God or nature.
There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.
http://www.youtube.com/user/ProfMTH#g/c … F680C1DBEB
Regards
DLVery interesting perspective. The problem lies in what Christians are taught. They are taught not to take credit when credit is deserved and not to take blame when blame is deserved. They thank God for the most ridiculous things like putting food on the table or winning a race or a football game. If there were a God can you imagine what he must think of a baseball player praying to win a game or get a hit when children are dying in the hospital across the street? They have also been taught to blame the devil for mistakes. The devil made me do it. No you did it. Take ownership and move on.
Yes. Teaching Christians to take responsibility when their mind-set is to use a scapegoat human sacrifice is hard.
They have to ignore 3/4 of the bible to reach that position but they do not care about their morality and just focus on their being saved when no God worth his salt would ever lose who they say they love or send them to useless torture in a hell.
Regards
DLAgreed. Isn't that what "faith without works is dead" means? It's all about acting, and then being responsible for our acts, both the good and the bad. If I don't study, praying to God will not help me pass the test.
We as Men of Christ have been Charged with Two very distinct tasks! One to be Fruitful and Multiply. Two to Feed the children to whom cry out for truth from Father.
Or those who come through Christ seeking of the Father. Who said If you have seen the Son you have seen the Father.
Two Charges to be Fruitful and Multiply and to Feed the children of GOD whom seek GOD. Show me your works and I will see your Faith! The Bread of Life is not food of this world it is the living words of CHRIST.Again, thanks for your response, but I don't exactly think it applies to what I just posted. If I'm wrong, please help me understand.
A cobo of all your posts GOD is in No way comparable to the LAW the LAW can not Nor was it designed to Save!
For One! GOD did Not create IT as it stands today! The god or the little God of this our world re-created it.
It was designed to accuse you with. Satan often pretends to be God or GOD and he has often succeeded in the earthly realms of the religions of this world.
Christ tells us this when He was asked about It and He reveal that only two were still intact. To Love thy GOD with all thy Heart, Mind, Body, and Soul. And to Love thy Neighbor as thyself. For we are all GOD's or GOD's children.Oh. I hope you're not angry? It's so hard to tell from just words without seeing body language or hearing tone...
Well. The Law does save, if there's a Law that says, "Do X, Y and Z and you'll receive this reward." It's not exactly comparable to our laws because our laws only punish for not following them.
But it's correct if you think of it like a mathematical equation. 1 plus 1 equals 2 is always true. Call that a Law. Therefore, "for example", Baptism plus Obedience equals Salvation. Call that a Law. Therefore, the Law can save, or condemn. It's a Law...! It works both ways.
Rufus
His comments do not apply because he is preaching and not discussing.
Regards
DL
- Rad Manposted 12 years ago0
The forbidden tree of knowledge is no mystery. It's a very simple threat to keep Christians ignorant. The story is that God doesn't want you to have knowledge, as if knowledge was bad. Knowledge of evolution and the universe contradict the bible, that's why we have people asking ridiculous questions like "if we evolved from monkeys they why are there still monkeys" (actual question asked on another forum.
(I stupidly posted this on another question...Neewbie mistake) I am a firm believer that when we finally die, something will be revealed to us, what, is the question. And somehow, I completely understand your question. I myself am a struggling "Carnal Christian" Many will argue that Adam & Eve, were given freedom of choice to eat from the tree, but it is stated directly in Genesis 2:16-17...it was commanded from Him not to eat from the tree of life (knowledge), if you ever do get an educated answer that makes sense to you, please share it because I am still confused why Jesus Himself killed the fig tree?
if you ever do get an educated answer that makes sense to you, please share it because I am still confused why Jesus Himself killed the fig tree?
=================
First off the book was written from mans prospective.
2ndly .... I think the fig tree might have represented the hebrew peoples. the fig tree had been taken care of for all of this time and even though it was probably early in the season for it to bear good fruit, It had none to give. The tree wasn't plucked up or hewned down but only withered and died. It was still there but it's streingth was taken from it.
Kinda the same way the Hebrew nation's streingth was scattered to the four winds in 135 AD.They were command not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil this is Satan Himself as he appeared as Lucifer the fallen angel; also the Man exalted as God. Again is this same Fallen Angel as when he fell the 2/3 of Heaven that did not fall belittled Him as A Man!
Not even an angel any longer; for the Truth, was no longer within in him; as the Light barer. Satan the Snake or serpent, Lucifer, The tree of Good and Evil Knowledge; Is the Fallen Lucifer.
The Knowledge of Evil is! That one Can refuse to do GOD's will and Not except repentance or forgiveness and instruction. This is the Evil Knowledge! This Is what Lucifer and those who Fell with Him Did! Were doing and are still doing.
John the Baptist His message was to Man KIND the son's and Daughter of the fallen Children of GOD. Which are the fallen angels and Now Adam and EVE and their children were: also because Satan, as the Serpent swayed Eve into listen to Satan as the Tree of Good and Evil who look as fair as the Tree of Life!
For they were command not to eat of Its Knowledge or even to touch It; to go near unto IT!
Eve then saw Lucifer's Beauty for Lucifer was created in the Full Pattern of GOD there was None other in Heaven or upon Earth with his Beauty! Not Even was Christ More Beautiful, but equally as Beautiful! Some would dare say Twins even in their Looks as to beauty's sake.
The command to be fruitful was the reason this Fig tree was Cursed and withered and die within in a days time. This tree is the very Likeness of the shepherds of our world. Our pastors.
As Judgment will come first to those who preach the truth. Such As I am trying to do for you all here. We will be hunted down first and brought up unto Death (Satan) as Lucifer who is pretending to be Christ.
The tree a fig was indeed more than an earthly tree. But more so an example of future Preachers and Teachers of the words of GOD. That shall wither in parish within a day's Time.
"THE LORDS DAY" for GOD's Elect or Shepherds and light givers or pastors, preachers, and Teachers will Be the first that the anti-Chirst will Try to get to save their skins.
For if they save their flesh lives or bodies of flesh. They will lose their soul or spiritual Life eternally.
Hope this clears this up! The tree is a metaphor stating GOD didn't create this tree with the possibility of NOT bearing fruit. This tree choose not to offer it up, UNTO the son Of GOD at this Time. It is the tree of both good and evil knowledge that Christ is speaking of. A lesson that made the Apostles marvel the meaning of. For indeed It is Satan choosing to crucify Jesus that he could have choose not to do.
@Jerami, powerful question, one I've pondered for many years.
Here's my take on it:
First of all, the Garden was a non-physical (spiritual) place. I come to this conclusion because of a number of facts:
* Adam and Eve did not literally, physically die on the day they ate of the forbidden fruit, though God said they would surely die on that day. Instead, they were "escorted" out of the Garden. The consensus is that they died spiritually.
* The Tree of Life (the other tree mentioned in Genesis) is shown in the Jewish Kabbalah to be merely a matrix of concepts (not a physical tree). The Tree of Knowledge seems to be a tree of dichotomies -- good-evil, but also generous-selfish, confidence-doubt, compassion-indifference and more.
These dichotomies are part of the physical world of continuity. In reality we have continuity of space, of time and of various states of existence (hot, cold, chaotic, calm, etc). The realm of spirit is discontinuous. This is where creation is born, and you can't get any more discontinuous than that -- one moment, nothing -- the next, something.
The word "knowledge" in the Bible has one rather interesting meaning that may apply here. When a man "knows" a woman biblically, he has had sex with her. He has become intimate with her and known her deeply (pun intended).
When a spiritual child of God (you or I) turns from God and wonders about the feelings and meaning of physical continuity and dichotomy, we might fall into the machine and become one of its cogs -- thus "knowing" it deeply.
How would such "knowledge" manifest itself? With that knowledge, we would have a physical viewpoint, rather than a spiritual one. That physical viewpoint would be built of dichotomies. That viewpoint goes by the name "ego."
Thus, it seems to me, that ego is the fruit of the forbidden tree. (Fruit is also "product" or "end result.")
That physical viewpoint would require physical instrumentalities (eyes, ears, etc.) in order to perceive, otherwise the spiritual being would be lost in a dream-like state (likely nightmares [hell?]).
The Tree of Knowledge was there because the universe had been created. We could have chosen to remain as spiritual beings viewing physical reality, or we could have chosen to become a cog in the machine and view spirituality from a physical viewpoint. We chose the latter.
Homo sapiens, civilization and religion have all been part of a massive rescue mission to bring God's children out of the dark well of physicality.
Remember: we were created in God's image and likeness and He is not Homo sapiens.Now if I were a more literate man, I might have been able to come up with some of those words and put them in the right order and said the same thing as you just did; but I'm not and I didn't.
I agree with everything you just said about 99%. Maybe a little bit more?You not literate? You could've fooled me! Well shucks, Jerami. Thanks for the kind words. But sometimes I don't believe I write the things I do. They seem to come from someplace beyond me. When I try to interfere, I only muck it up. Thankfully, I'm slowly starting to listen to the cry to back off when I do start to interfere. It's a humbling experience. And I'm still learning... always!
Lonestar
"The consensus is that they died spiritually."
So, as God said of A & E, they have become like Gods, means that God is spiritually dead.
Rather a strange view you have.
Regards
DLWell, DL, you have a strange interpretation of what I believe. And yes, it's wrong.
Where did it say that Adam and Eve have become like gods? I never read that. I remember reading that they had that potential, if only they ate of the tree of life. But they were already like gods in the garden before they ate of the tree of knowledge. That's what children of their parents are: they are born in the image and likeness of those parents. God has baby gods. And even Jesus reminded his enemies, "Ye are gods."
And God is spiritually dead? Where did you get that? The nietzschean belief that God is dead is far from my own viewpoint. God is very much alive and He is and always has been only spirit (non-physical, thus the prohibition against graven images).So how could A & E have sinned if they were like Gods?
Strange that you have not read where God says they became as Gods and not they are Gods and became as God's. That would be stupid.
If A & E were spiritually dead, how is it their spirituality told them they were naked and created shame in them?
Regards
DLThey became as Gods because the Gods know good and evil and then, after eating the fruit, A and E knew good and evil? Does that work? Therefore, their new knowledge is what told them they were naked. It's like a baby that doesn't know any difference and an adult that does know.
Although, I wonder still why being naked made them ashamed. I think being naked is considered "embarrassing" just because of modern/culture ideals.All of creation except for Adam and Eve Knew of Evil and Knew of Life Eternal. Except for Adam and Eve for Adam was a New Creation. Created for a fallen Lot of Angels about 1/3 of Heaven Fell and needed to hear the truth of GOD and HIS WORLD. Not all of them (the fallen angels)were Born of Woman. Either from "The EVE" the mother of all the living or those whom excepted the path to repentance or the Eves; The sixth day creation. These were fallen angels placed into Flesh bodies and whom Cain found in the land of Nod.
A prison Suit if you Like (these flesh bodies) for they are chained here to this Earth; tethered, to be more exact. This is why we are in Flesh Bodies we have been isolated from the rest.
An GOD separated the waters from the waters. As well as the spirits from the spirits. There is a war in Heaven still today. Over all that the fallen have caused to come about.
Satan is held in Heaven behind the throne of GOD; my Michael, and has been since Christ told him to get the behind me.
After Satan tempted Christ in the wilderness. This is why Christ came and had to Pay the Price! The Price is not for Man or Mankind alone! It is also for the separation of those whom fell; and refuse to repent, and be found of sinning no more!
For Now Not Only will Satan Perish But all who follow him and his ways.Out of curiosity, are you part of any specific church?
That belief is very different from most other Christian churches, which is OK. I'm not saying that makes it wrong or bad or anything like that. It was just an observation.
I think that's very interesting though.At birth I was Baptized Lutheran, At Age twelve I was Baptized a Baptist this is where My Path to enlightenment began and then was squashed. after being asked to leave my new churched I tried many religions Pentecostal JW,s Even Mormon and Catholic I was Married ten 1/2 years to a Catholic Woman and My children have all attended Catholic training My eldest is Now a Baptist Pastor. I as of Three almost four years Have Dis associated with all my former trainings I still Use My King James and Many other Bibles and CD's and Tapes and Videos Much stuff. But my First Bible is my go to Document. I am a Non denominational man of Christ. I am have reach a point were I now believe I am instructed By the Comforter ( the Holy Spirit of GOD) as you put it early. All that I have experience throughout my life and all that I have learned are being clarified. I believe By the Spirit of God. But yet I still study My Bible and converse a lot with others whom are experiencing the same beliefs. as we are now. I no longer play the game of Scripture Lawyer I am a story Teller of the Story I consider to be the truest Version of the truth that I have been Given to give.
How does someone describe something for which there are no words?
How, for instance, would a first century monk describe the meltdown of a nuclear reactor which poisons one third of the world?
Metaphor is one method. Genesis and Revelation are similar in this respect.
Just like the early myths of ancient Greece and Egypt. There was a truth behind them for which the primitives had no vocabulary, so "Empire" became "god." And when Zeus swallowed Metis whole, this was the ocean swallowing Atlantis whole. Metis = latter day Atlantis. Poseidon = early Atlantis. Zeus = all of nature (including oceans). Athena = the refugees of Atlantis.
And when Heru (Horus) cut off the head of his mother Asett (Isis) and hid it from her in the mountains, this was really the new ruling body of Kemet (Egypt) kidnapping the leader (head) of the Asett group (refugees of Atlantis who were friends of Kemet). While Sett (Seth) was the selfish group of refugees who wanted to conquer and settle Kemet.
The myths make much more sense when you find the plausible reality behind the metaphor. But in the case of spiritual things, we need to be prepared for a broader range of plausibility.
The tree of knowledge is a concept I have been struggling with myself, recently. What knowledge did the tree give them? What was gained and lost by them eating of it? Why would they choose to do that if they had no knowledge?
I don't believe that Adam and Eve were robot like. Child-like perhaps, accepting of Eden and what God had given them without question and until Satan told them to question it all, they hadn't thought of it.
What knowledge did they gain from the fruit? I believe they were given the knowledge of the universe, the knowledge of sin, of shame. They were able to see all that God had kept hidden from them, as a parent might, to protect and allow innocence. I believe they weren't kicked out of the Garden of Eden so much (A mental state moreso than a physical state) but once you know all of the things of the universe and of sin you can not go back to innocence. You can't get back into the Garden because you can not unknow what you have learned. You are given knowledge, but you lose what all children lose. The ability to just be, to exist without worry or embarasment or fear. They realized they were naked, as a young boy might if he were playing naked after a bath and was taunted by his siblings and the knowledge that he was naked and should cover himself and that he should be embarassed to be naked. He can never go back to being that innocent carefree naked boy because he has eaten of the tree of knowledge and he can not go back to the Eden of his innocence.
Why was the tree there? Social experiment? I don't know, I cant know God's purposes.
Thanks for this!! It really helped me understand my own beliefs!One thing for sure ... the story of the tree of knowledge is a metaphore holding a deeper truth.
I wonder if the serpent being "IN" the tree has any importance.
Was the serpent "IN" the knowledge as it was IN the tree?Can a tree lose it's legs and have to crawl in the dirt?
Regards
DLIt might in one of our dreams ... and what do you suppose the interpretation of that dream would be?
The G. I am It is not physical legs the serpent had lost. It was his actual physical body (his God Given Body)the serpent some surmise; was a Seraphim class of Angel.
Seraphims are Part of the higher Archy of GODs ruling class an elder. Which also would have been privy to great Knowledge and Power.
This serpent is now a possessive spirit without a body of its own. It is not the serpent's head that will be bruised by the women of the world, but Satan's Head or the Heads of his ruling power.
They will bruise our hells (make it hard for us to do the works of GOD) and She shall Bruise their Heads cut off or stun their power and rule.
This will happen most noticeably, after Satan returns. Although we AMERICA have as a many membered Body; stunned and cut the Heads off of many of Satan's ruling Bodies.Thanks for sharing your fairy tale.
Anytime you want to grow up, let me help.
You are aware of how silly you sound stating things that you have no way of knowing or proving are true and thus are lies.
Regards
DLNo more so then the One you Claim. But as we all must come to the truth we must do so at our own speed and at our own understanding.
I believe you believe that you are discrediting GOD by claiming your Dislike of the God of this world and his actions and likenesses and in truth I believe that you believe not in any God or gods let alone The GOD.
I see you as a wolf in sheep's clothing. Mingling in a heard to devourer others and their beliefs.I do not dislike a God that is imaginary. I do dislike having good minds lost to what is more a God with the morals of a Satan.
Note even in yourself how Satanic the notion you follow are. Human sacrifice and punishing the innocent instead of the guilty. Satan could not come up with such a disgusting system that completely ignores justice.
Yet you embrace them.
Regards
DL
@Sinbadsailorman, I find your analysis interesting and thought provoking. Very nice.
I view the Garden as a non-physical place. In the OT, Satan is merely the opposer or challenger, sent by God -- like the angel who confronted Balaam and his donkey.I once thought that This Devil was a teaching tool as some still come to this conclusion. I no longer do.
The very question was ask specifically unto Jesus by an elder of the church in Jesus's time. The question; this question was posed or rather feared. That all Is or has been for naught? Jesus was asked was it possible that this Devil receive forgiveness and re-enter Heaven.
Jesus answered with; least a man be reborn He could not re-enter Heaven. This has baffled many unto today still. I believe Jesus was referring Directly to or of Satan and his Fallen Angels. Who have never been born, or re-born into flesh by way of EVE or the Eve's of our world and into flesh bodies. So Satan is Not liken to the Angel that Cause the Priest Balaam to understand the Donkey's creation Tongue.
No Satan is sentence to Die which Makes him much more than a thought or spirit or even an EGO. Satan is a Re-Named Cherubim by most accounts. I think he was lifted up and was a Much higher Angel.
That he was awarded his position of "Light Bearer" and for this reason his forgiveness is or was pending In The Garden of Eden and upon Testing in the Garden; he again, failed to repent. And then again when he tempted Christ, and then again when Christ asked of The Father in the garden before His crucification.
That if it were possible that His Cup be removed. So Satan Is sentenced to die or be separated from GOD the Father Forever. And GOD will do this by simply Forgetting about Satan in all his forms or names. Poof Gone for all eternity. The Father Is a Just, Merciful, and Forgiving, GOD HE loves all of HIS creation. Satan Chose to do this separation. Not GOD our Father!
And Father will have No more of It ever again! So Satan will by his own choosing Die!I understand, @Sinbadsailorman. I used to have similar views.
What does "reborn" mean? I think Jesus made it clear when he talked to Nicodemus -- not physical, but spiritual rebirth.
Could the use of "Satan" in the Pentateuch be different than later usage?
And could we be the fallen angels? (see Gen. 1:26)The Let Us; I believe is God and The Little God of our World. I see the Remaking or the restoration of the Earth and Not the First Making of It.
I believe in the Fall and I believe in GOD the Fathers Loving and Correcting Nature. I see Satan and God Hashing out what they see for us or their Image of what we are to them, being decided here.
And Yes none of us are innocent we are the falling angels and the children that were captured or beguiled; as were Adam and Eve. After the loss of Able there were no longer any innocent Souls.
We have all fallen short of GOD's Glory and Grace. And We in the flesh were reborn to be able to Repent for are former sins. Which were only trespasses.
But because Satan would not repent from the Lie that he was our God we had to choose to be re-born into the flesh.
Which made us Innocent once more. But know Satan is still trying to deceive us, But has no claim upon us. And we can repent of our Original Sin and tress-passings which was the failure to Repent or Disobedience and the chosen Separation from GOD the Father our Creator.
You have it correct, Jeremi. The serpent was "in knowledge", in the know, so to speak. Which means it was already existing between both trees. The metaphor of crawling in the dust, to daily eat of that dust, exemplifies man coming from that dust and suffering by indulgence, submission to his own knowledge, his own ego -individuality, that made him so unique.
James.The human mind wasn't designed to be capable of understanding the truth in/of all things.
At least mine wasn't.
When reading a little of everyones opinions and beliefs I can see some truth in them all and understand (a little) why and how they have come to where they are.
If we could design a computer program that separates the BS from the rest and diagnose how these things which seems to be oposits do support each other ??? I'm getting dizzy just thinking about that OH Well (lol)I disagree. The human mind is chock-full of so much information; such intricate details of this planet, its systems and creatures. Plus nonphysical systems, even itself. It has the capability to process each and every blip correctly. And it seems that "correctly" is where we have missed it. There is nothing but truth in each of us. And every word humans speak or think further proves this. Our own obscure view of that truth, again, is what has been the misstep. As for the later statement, I also disagree. You are just as brilliant as any/everyone else. Equal brains, equal bodies, equal spirits and equally capability....imo.
James.You are right I was Aaa... at the time I was thinking about our concious mind; I quess Well mine anyway??
The brains may be full, but isn't there something beyond our brains which has access to all without being attached or burdened by it?
Instead of looking through a glass darkly, letting go of the glass and simply looking.PRECISELY!
And this has been my firm argument is favor of Free Will versus Choice. An existence void of the good-evil duality {aka Reason}. All truth has been genetically programmed into every human. By the indulgence {division} of Understanding, man caused his own demise -a endless descending spiral into the depths of Choice. Understanding or Philos allowed humans to exist beyond the million billion beautiful threads of light information put there. The Processor did its thing while man enjoyed complete perfection, a complete reflection of the sum-substance of creation, to mange it/rule over it and the sum-substance of Creator's attributes.
Yes, indeed. To achieve this is to fulfill the Will of Creator, that complete restoration to immortality, as the Firstborn shows us. It requires that ruach, also promised to be provided to every single human who accepts it. The effect or amnesia of the Adamic Inception begins to be reversed as all things are brought to our remembrance. Memory and Ability of an existence long forgotten by humans. Instant, perfect health; Agelessness; Elemental Handling; All languages understood; Acute Planetary Hearing, perhaps even the ability to create. An existence of Ineffable proportions.
James.Interesting, James. Some of the words seemed to be misspelled, so I missed a few of your points.
You say, "long forgotten by humans." But couldn't it have been forgotten by us even before humans came into the picture? After all, according to Genesis 1:26, we were created in the image and likeness of God, and He's not Homo sapiens.
I like the list of abilities. But I suspect we will no longer want or desire a human existence, once we reawaken fully and permanently.
This is an important point that you have made here Jerami, the serpent is in the tree or rather under the tree and his rule.
The serpent which I gather would have been Satan's Right Hand Man or angel. When we understand that Lucifer was left in charge and that he had and still has others under him and that he Holds the most and sought after Knowledge that there is about the ONE. And even still that he was Made in the Full pattern of GOD. We can than begin to see a little clearer why and How EVE fell as she did.
Let us not forget that one third of Heaven Fell. And along with that one third others were captured; as were the new creations, or Babes the younger children.
This is what the Devil thinks will raise him up to a higher level than GOD for these that were created. Were created to create and reproduce.Can any part ever think that they will be greater than the whole?
- Greatest I amposted 12 years ago0
Rufus8956
A Troubled Man
Here is the formula for the human morals that are showing themselves to be better that what the WORD of all the Gods ever gave us.
You will note that the morality from us goes to placing others above us.
God's laws put his ugly ass first and are thus inferior to man's morals and laws.
http://blog.ted.com/2008/09/17/the_real_differ/
Regards
DL Just want everyone know that I've very much enjoyed everyones comments.
Just can't get in here as much as Ild like.
Sinbadsailorman & lone77star I come real close to agreeing 99% with both of your statements, kinda. lol
I think We are the US in "Let US make man in our image" and that 1/3 of the angels (us) were permited to take human form at that time. We came down otherwise known as falling.
I think that when they came down, they brought with them all of their prior knowledge. This caused all kinds of Havoc. This caused God to say “Ha this will never work”
Let’s start all over and this time we have to come into this world as new born babies having no prior knowledge.
As far as evolution is concerned ? ?? Sure it happened, and once evolution had reached a proper stage, then the spirit world knew that the conditions on earth were favorable for us to inhabit.
All of this is just speculation ….. and not very well expressed … All I know for sure is that I am a spiritual being temporarily trapped in a man’s body. my spirit person may be a lesbian trapped in a mans body, (Joke).Once we were all in all; and Now we have been caused to be Divided. We are all Both Male and Female. And do not have to choose to that effect. Our sex was decided By Father the whisperings to or about HIS decision are cause by Satan.
To drive us away from Father further still. It is No Joke! Satan has tortured many souls with this division of Self. We are neither given or promised in Marriage for we are already married and we were design to play a singular Role. Not a divided One.
United we stand, divided we fall! Satan believes that we shall all fall and serve him as a God.
The Let Us I believe is God trying to do a One on One with Lucifer to get him to repent. Satan is the original Prodigal Son. Only he has Chosen to Become the Father not return to HIM.
And it is Not possible for him or for any of GOD's creations to become. There is but ONE GOD and HE Must remain GOD or all shall; fall, fail, and drift away. Back into the Darkness that was.If there is only one God, which God was God referring to when he commanded that we put no other God above him?
Further, you have no way of knowing that there is only one God.
You are therefore lying when you say that there is a God.
All you have is hearsay and book say and if you believe those, then you are an idol worshipper.
Name your idol.
Regards
DLThere is only One GOD. There are Many Gods and gods I never said that. I also Stated that the Devil often Plays GOD and is the God of this world our planet Earth. So Grow up and Ask the Creator for some Knowledge and Don't stop asking until you get some. Donnie/ Sinbad The Sailor Man Your eternal Soul depends upon You receiving the correct Answers that you Seek. Seek and you Shall Find. Knock and the Door shall open Wide for the Time is soon. Repent and Sin no Longer or better said Be found guiltless and forgiven.
You say seek and ye shall find yet we seek answers from you and all we get is useless non-informing preaching.
Thanks for showing how you deflect seekers.
Thanks also for ending the usual Christian way. With threats.
You are pathetic. I hate to see a good mind lost to fantasy thinking.
Get well soon.
Regards
DLThanks, @Sinbadsailorman. Good points, even if DL doesn't take the time to "get it." Yes, the "Devil" often plays "god" and is the "god" of the physical realm.
I suspect that the "Devil" is really "ego" -- a physical construct and false self used as an interface with the physical realm. Because "ego" is a created object (created by each of us individually, as children of God and thus creators each of us), ego is full of dichotomies -- an "action-reaction" device on all social conceptual vectors: good-evil, right-wrong, generous-selfish, victim-perpetrator, compassion-indifference, confidence-doubt, wisdom-stupidity and many others.
The Devil (ego) only has the power we give it. And since ego pretends to be us, we find it extremely difficult to let go of this beast.
But like Christ said, we need to let this "self" die in order that we may gain everlasting life. Only through humility and confidence can we subdue ego, weaning us of the dependence on physical consciousness and allowing us to return to non-physical, spiritual consciousness -- from darkness to the light.
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