If more wives followed this part of Ephesians, do you think we would have happier families/ homes?
It seems to me that more households are run by the wives?
>Please read or be aquianted with this section of the Bible before commenting.
Of course I agree with this! - my wife lets me have my own opinion, it is of no consequence of course - but we do have freedom of speach in my house!
Being serious, just like the Koran can be taken out of context, or a passage within it can be misused, so can the bible.....
women should have every right that a man does. no one should be owned or ruled by someone else. it sickens me when i see how religion has made women into nothing more then slaves to men, christianity and islam need a swift kick in the nuts.
I am not religious nor married but came across this passage in the book. Was just wondering how people perceived it. And wow, what a bunch of silly responses.
Of course women immediately think it is an attack on them. But did anyone read the next few lines of scripture? The very next paragraph explains how men "should" love/treat their wives to the most amazing extent. In fact, it's a huge paragraph about 4x the length of the womens part. So in other words, men have a large role to uphold as well. Isn't it amazing how a simple question can turn this into an ugly debacle?
Yes, but we have moved well beyond the misogynist mindset that originally created those passages.
Well that's because your separating the sexing and giving each a roll. Which is taking control away from people. People who are not in control of their lives are not happy people. I've been married for 22 years and she hasn't kicked me out yet. Why? Because we share responsibilities and make decisions together. Trying to get marriage advice from a 2000 year old book in nothing more the idiotic. Sooner or later a control women wakes up and says "I want to make decisions and out you go". Seen it happen over and over.
I try to live by this along with other gender rolls that most people feel are out of date. I do not think it is something for all woman. Me and my husband are very happy with our choice, and w do feel it makes our family closer. I get say on everything, but my husband gives the finale word, but he thinks of my wants, the family wants and needs before doing so. and 99% of the time I get what I want.
I like your attitude. I don't have a problem with people choosing roles in a relationship. We all do it. I get testy when people do as this thread has done and imply some deity wants to shove women down. It's ridiculous. We all need to do what works for us as a couple.
I dunno the statistics on how many women don't submit! ha. So I dunno if homes would be happier or not. But I'm pretty sure homes would be happier if both spouses followed the Word.
What I do know is that it's a mutual thing. Actually, first and foremost I believe the husband should follow the word of the Lord where it says for them to love their wives as they love their own bodies and to be willing to give their lives for her! And that doesn't just mean protect them from physical attacks, but to give their time and their minds and hearts to understanding their wife's feelings and needs on an ongoing basis. When a husband has that attitude, then, and only then, is a wife required to be submissive to her husband's authority. The Bible says to obey God rather than man, meaning that no one is supposed to follow the lead of wrong-doing and submit to it. So, no, a woman is not supposed to submit when a husband is doing wrong or treating her like a "thing".
I've heard preachers preach on the wife's role of submission and laughs were elicited from the congregation, like the man should be proud to have a wife "under submission". But I have yet to hear any preacher expound upon the husband's role with the same fervor. So, what is needed is for more men to take responsibility for their own role before they want to exert authority over their wives.
Yet another reason to reject Christian dogma as far as I am concerned.
Also not everyone is married. The only male available to be head of my household is a goldfish.
The only reason to perpetuate this belief begins in the insecurity of men. Should we stroke an immature ego, or expect them to learn to be adults? Everyone has strengths and weaknesses. A mature couple will find the give and take that works for their relationship. No one need be chief or indian.
Actually this beleif begins with a letter Petter sent to the Ephesians. so by saying that it starts with the insecurity of men you are implying that Peter, Himself was insecure. Peter, The one who is depicted as the Lion, and as being part of the inner circe of Jesus. That my dear, is very far-fetched and biased.
The letter to the Ephesians was not written by Peter, but by Paul of Tarsus, who was not in the "inner circle" of Jesus. Paul converted without having ever met Jesus, after experiencing "a vision" while recovering from an epileptic attack.
Paul made many misogynist statements in his works. He obviously did not like sex either:
“It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” 1 Corinthians 7:1
A couple of verses later (vv. 8-9) he goes on to reveal his own opinion of marriage as being something to satisfy the lustful fires in the more bestial elements of humanity, and thus as being something that those of a higher nature should avoid:
"Now to the unmarried[ and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion."
Note in the above, he makes it clear he was never married.
There is nothing whatsoever wrong with someone deciding to stay celibate if they consider that the best way for themselves. However, Paul's statements, and the way he tries to impose his own choices on others, make we wonder if he was not only insecure with women, but impotent as well.
Well, I think Write Angled rebutted your statement from a fairly knowledgable standpoint. But, it wouldn't matter who wrote that, imo. Insecurity demands subservience. I bow to no one, nor do I demand it of others. No man worth his salt with an ounce of intelligence would agree that a woman should subject herself to him. It is an insult to both parties.
Letter Peter sent to the Ephesians?? Hmm...Seems I only remember Paul writing a letter to the Ephesians...
I never wrote a letter to the Ephesians but I did post on their facebook page... they liked and shared it.
My mistake Peter/Paul. As I states before I am not religious amd was reading the book. Actually I have never read it before and have not even finished yet. The Bible is a good book in small doses.
If I went home and told my wife "WOMAN, YOU GOTS TO BE SUBJECT TO ME CUZ THE BIBLE SEZ SO! NOW FIX ME A SAMMICH!" she'd kick me square in the nut sack.
Hahahaha. That I will surely do if my husband will tell me that.
This comment made me laugh. But honestly, you totally missed the point. I have never heard of a minister or person who reads the book every sunday tell the people of the church to go make him a sandwich becuase they are in the house of god. Nor does he tell the men to go home and tell their wives to do it. You don't hear about women following behind the diciples to make sandwiches and grab them a cold one from the ice box.
Perhaps you need to tell me exactly what I *am* missing out on then. Because if being head of house does not involve being able to tell followers what to do as you see fit, it seems like a token position.
Being a faciliator and decider of certain decisions is far different than telling someone to go make you a sammich.
That rather depends on the man. You are either in charge, or not in charge. Whether you use that power wisely is another matter.
I prefer not to even suggest one person is naturally in charge whether the other agrees or not. It seems one step from slavery (another thing the bible condones).
I can't imagine barking at a wife to go make me a sandwich, or treat her as a slave. But I was simply asking a easy question. That from the general look of it, never got answered, instead got attacked. A simple, Yes or No then a polite short explaination of justification would have been quite sufficient.
Most white slave owners in the 19th century South treated their slaves relatively well, in fact many slaves were considered part of the family. Watch "Gone with the Wind" to see what I mean. Does that make the actual, legal relationship between master and slave right?
Correct, when you tell someone they can't make decisions for themselves you take there dignity away. If they make you a sandwich they are being nice.
No, but sometimes you do hear them pontificate about why women should never be allowed to be ordained!.
Ha ha ha ha ha. Yup mine too. Then I'd make my own sandwich.
Wifes submit to your husbands AND husbands submit to your wifes.
It is a wise man who can keep his wife happy while maintaining the position of head of house.
In all fairness; ... somebody does have to be the captain of the ship; ... and sometimes the wife is better equipted for that position.
Good morning, Rumpelstiltskin. After many decades of sleep, you will find times have changed.
Bible worked great for ... ??? 2000 years. but since what, 1991 it stopped working ? hahaha.
Would that include all the holy wars started as a result of the Bible?
Wars between 2 religions or wars between sceptics vs religion? Either way, it is still the same book that has a large following of content individuals.
LOL! What skeptic vs. religion wars?
And, the cause for setting a record number of murders throughout our history.
You seem very aggressive about this subject, so here are some facts for ya.
~In their Encyclopedia of Wars, authors Charles Phillips and Alan Axelrod attempt a comprehensive listing of wars in history. They document 1763 wars overall, of which 123 (7%) have been classified to involve a religious conflict.~
This information was derived from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_war
Deaths from top 5 Religious Wars - 20.75 million (est)
Deaths from world war 1 - 37 million (est)
Deaths from world war 2 - 60 million (est)
I disagree. All decisions can be made mutually. Control over ones life makes a happy person. What we want is a happy person. I now to many guys to tried to control their wives and ended up living in an apartment wishing they could see their kids.
My conservative Christian hubby and I found a way around all this before we got married. I agreed to submit to his orders and he agreed to never never give me any.
His religious beliefs are thus preserved and I don't have to superglue his junk to his leg while he's sleeping.
It has always been my place to make all of the big decisions in my marriages.
Come to think about it now in hindsight! .... I don't think that there ever was any decisions that my wife thought BIG ENough to trouble me with.
Marriages? As in, you've been married more than once? Isn't that a sin?
And, if you've had several marriages, notice that they obviously failed? Perhaps, the women you married were not into a submission.
Perhaps, that's why the Christian divorce rate is highest.
Has it occured to you that sometimes wives die? There you go jumping to conclusions.
While overlooking the humor.... there wasn't any decisions that "SHE" thought BIG enough to trouble me with.
LOL. You sound like a guy who knows the secret to a happy marriage.
Well, you want us to read the surrounding passages, so let's take a look...
"Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is."
"giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, submitting to one another in the fear of God."
One must always understand the will of the Lord. Moreover, one must "fear" the Lord. Always give thanks to the Lord for everything (i.e. even the small things).
Then it says: Ephesians 5:22-24
"Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything."
So wives must treat their husbands the same way they treat the Lord. They have just been instructed to always understand the will of the Lord, to fear the Lord and to thank the Lord for absolutely everything they have. It follows that wives must always understand the will of their husband, fear their husband, and thank their husband for absolutely everything they have (there seems to be a jurisdictional conflict between the husband and the Lord here, but let's leave that aside...)
Just as the Lord is the leader (the "head") of humanity, the husband is the leader of the wife. Throughout the Bible we are instructed to never question the Lord, to always follow the Lord's commands, NO MATTER WHAT. If the husband is to enjoy the same treatment from his wife, it follows the wife must never question him and always follow his commands. No matter what. He is the leader, and she is the follower who should be grateful to him in all things. Never question him, and always strain to understand his will and his desires.
It's one thing to blindly follow the Lord if the Lord is all powerful and all-knowing. But it is quite another to blindly follow a fallible human being.
The following passages (Eph 5:25-33) exhort husbands to love their wives as their own bodies, be willing to sacrifice for them as Christ did, etc.
That's all well and good, but it does not negate the terrible sexism inherent in Ephesians 5:22-24.
Why do husbands enjoy this great leadership position? Why not the reverse, wives as the leaders? Why does there have to be a leader in the relationship at all? Why not an equal partnership? And why does "leadership" entail a total, unquestioning, blind following? Why is the follower, the wife, not allowed to protest AT ALL?
These inconvenient questions verify (as if we needed it) that this is all from a horribly backward sexist mentality.
Hahaha, I personally like the way you cut off the most important part and only highlight what you chose. What a horrible way to display this book of all books. I bet if I had the time, I could copy and paste certain parts of the book to make it look like we all worship snakes and we are only allowed to eat apples for 7 days straight. Ugh, >_< .
I would call saying the bible is good advice for all time, when it says you can have slaves, is more of an example of picking and choosing then what I said.
I'll go with the Bill of Human Rights instead. Each person follows only those they choose to follow--and the community stays out of it.
I gave you several passages, you started us off with one sentence.
I'll copy and paste the whole section if you want. It doesn't matter.
If you think you can refute my argument, by all means, let's hear it. Otherwise you're offering nothing but rhetoric.
No we would have happier marriages if women and men didn't feel bad about treating their spouse well. My husband doesn't control me, but I take care of him and he takes care of me. We stick to the old fashioned family values. Almost 7 years in and we are still in our honeymoon phase. I personally do think more women should stay in their homes and raise their children, but thats just my opinion.
You know what, I guess I am 'subject to my husband as to the Lord"
In that, for me, neither exist.... : / (that is, I'm not married, and not a believer).
i demand submissiveness from all my wives
They must know their place and like it
Occasionally, they may speak, if granted permission... but only to ask if I would like vanilla or chocolate with my dessert
My wives are not allowed to waste money on vanilla. Pah!
I hear what you are saying, but sometimes I let them have it as a treat for servicing me properly...
any other flavors excite them too much... and that could lead to thoughts of rebellion.
You are very wise indeed. One should not be too miserly when it comes to the pleasures of life.
Wives ARE biblically instructed to be in submission to their husbands, but that is far easier than husbands who are called to love their wives as Christ loved the church (i.e. to lay down their lives for her). By doing that, no husband will "lord" it over their wives or subject them to anything that is harmful to them.
Men are generally (there are some exceptions) less emotional beings and hence decision making was given to them for their family because those decisions could be made without emotional bias. Oftentimes fathers find it easier to discipline their children for the same reason.
Wives are truly a precious gift to men. That's why the Bible says that "he who finds a wife finds a good thing". Marriage comes with a great responsibility for a man and I believe I will be answerable one day for the way I led my household and the way I treated my wife.
Here's another way of looking at it: Back when the bible was written, people had a limited understanding of how things worked. Psychology wasn't a science. So, the teachers of that time had to try to word things in a way the people would understand. How would someone 1,000 years ago explain a car or a plane if they saw one? .... so it is with trying to get the people to understand an idea that is not commonly understood:
Men need to be respected. It is how they feel loved and valued. "Submit to your husband" is another way, a much older way, for women of the time to understand this concept. Ask his advice, fluff up his ego, make him feel special and important. Forgive him. Trust him. Have faith in him that he is doing the best he can to provide you with your needs.
You don't go around kissing God's feet, don't do it for your husband. But you do trust that God has your best interest at heart, even when you don't understand his methods; this is what to do with your man. You may not always understand why he's doing what he's doing, but you need to trust and have faith that it is for the good of the family.
I generally hate religious debates & topics because everyone has their own set belief and interpretation of what it all means. I guess I just thought this thread needed another way of looking at it
no...Lord mentioned here was created by men who wrote books which r termed as scriptures and that is why they are gender biased...if women runs governments all across world ,most wars would not happen ..., world would be much better place...
Haha. You've obviously never worked with women. My experience is, if we ran government there would be no war, but there would be ninjas running around stabbing people in the back and some of us would have the life sucked out or maybe die when the high heels punctured through from being stepped on. But, there would always be smiles and laughter; so I guess that's a plus.
I worked in an office full of Women and your assessment is accurate. It took me a long to to learn the rules. Oh the heal marks on shoulders hurt especially when you don't see them coming! Rule number 1, don't expose them for who they are or they WILL cut your throat. Men and women work differently. Guys work as at team to get something done. Women work to get something done and they use others to make that happen.
Men have their own cut throat ways, but I do prefer men. I know where I stand with them better. I think the primary problem can be summed up with the fact that most women in the office want to be seen as 'the girls'. I, personally, grew up a long time ago and am not ashamed to admit it, or to be treated like a grown up.
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