How exactly doe Jesus dying for our sins work?

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   Matthew Kirkposted 11 years ago

   This is a genuine question;
   
   I would like to know the mechanics of how a man being killed by a group of Romans washes away sins?
   
   I don't want to be preached to, I would like a 'rational' answer / explanation if one can be interpreted in the bible? If one cannot then is it symbolim? Did God literally kill his son a a symbol of deciding he would wash away our sins? If so, why and how does that work?

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      Mark Knowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Rational and Christianity are not comfortable bed fellows.

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         Matthew Kirkposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         True, but we can all use logic, there must be some tiny ounce of it somewhere in there!

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            Mark Knowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            I think not.

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      Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I've been asking the very same question over and over, and from what I understand the logic is a sacrifice is an indication that you are willing to give up something dear to you to obtain something. One would sacrifice a goat and not eat it to show one's love to God. So God sacrifice his son to show his love to us. Of course it makes no real sense at all to kill a loved one to show respect because it goes against the shall shall not kill command. 1. If you watch someone kill someone and do nothing but set the scenario up you are guilty of murder. If you use the logic set forth by Christians, Jesus and God are one, then how can you kill one without killing the other. The stories of Jesus talking to his father indicates they are two, but Christianity has them being one. Then they through the holy spirit and all the angels and saints to pray for, which is directly against one of the commandments.

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      Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I should add it's like a girlfriend telling the boyfriend to give up his stoner friends (that he really likes) for her. It's also like the line in Shrek when the King (John Lithgow) says "Some of you may die, but that is a sacrifice I am willing to make".

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         Matthew Kirkposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         This sounds likes potential winning explanation!

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      A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Barbaric behavior. The Bible is a perfect snapshot of the type of behavior back then. Human sacrifice.

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      kessposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      The man Jesus found himself to be life.... therefore he call himself the same and Christ...Christ is not his name but a title synonymous with Life.
      
      His message has has been narrated in many ways but it is not understood fully by those who repeat it.
      So what you hear sound like the truth but not quite complete.
      The completion of his message occurs in the understanding of  hearer, not merely in the words of the speaker.
      
      For words always need to be interpreted first by the hearers before understanding comes. For there is always an alternative meaning for each and every word.
      
      His message to mankind is this.... It is impossible for Life to die... and the one who dies are the one who believe a Lie...
      
      The Lie that Death reigns over him (man) indefinitely....
      
      So Life (which is himself) cannot die, and he proved it by himself in that He willingly went through the similitude of Death ( As it is commonly understood) and still Lived, bearing in himself the burden of Proof of his message.
      
      So if any man dares to believe the message, that one will find it in himself also to completely overcome death just as he did.
      
      and the burden of proof of this belief will be found  in the one believing and that One shall not die...
      And if for what ever reason that one dies, he shall live.
      
      So can you believe this?.... then you will find that Life belongs to you and is YOU.

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      BongSantosposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I won't pretend I have the answer. My Faith has guided me from way back when for which I'm very grateful. However, I'm inclined to believe the sacrifice is symbolic of God's love for His children, exactly the same thing with Catholics "eating and drinking the flesh and blood" of Jesus. Faith works fine for me, and there's no reason why I will doubt, much less abandon it. Too, I believe that God's workings are beyond human comprehension.
      Others choose to ask why. I respect that. I choose not, and I hope others will respect that too.

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         Mark Knowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Why would anyone respect deliberate ignorance? And why would you want to be respected for not asking questions?

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            BongSantosposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Because I respect those who ask questions

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               Mark Knowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               No you don't. If you did - you would not accept deliberate ignorance. You would ask questions instead.

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   Emile Rposted 11 years ago

   By my understanding, sacrifice was the way the ancients atoned for sin. This was their custom. The sacrifice of Christ was to signify the end of a barbaric custom and the end of a belief that actions in this life can separate you from the love of a deity, or gain you greater favor than others with that deity. A sacrifice to end all sacrifices. An action to end the perception of religion being the way to raise oneself in the eyes of the creator. All humanity is known to the creator and all humanity is equal in the eyes of the creator.
   
   Whether it is true it not, I've always liked the sound of it. You probably think I'm horrible for thinking this, but if it is true then, in the grand scheme of eternity, Christ probably doesn't look back on the events of the crucifixion with anymore discomfort than does any woman who endured labor. A fleeting pain worth the effort made.

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   pisean282311posted 11 years ago

   it works on many layers...first it shows how cruel god can be...now jesus was son of god...god loved him but still got hang for 5 hours in huge pain...imagine what god would do with you if u sin?...
   
   secondly it is punishment to god himself...he screwed up and paid by getting his  son killed...god deserved it , so we dont have to worry much at it...
   
   how it works for humans?...well god had many debt to repay to humans...after getting his son killed...he repayed those debts and account got to zero zero level...

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      Emile Rposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Darn. If we could just find God we could make him pay.

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   psycheskinnerposted 11 years ago

   Before we get lost in pre-emptive scorn, I would actually be sincerely interested in hearing the doctrinal answer to this question.

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      Collisaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I will give it a go as soon as I can. My daughter is in a play this weekend, so I'm super busy.

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      Emile Rposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      If that was directed at me,I was joking with pisean. It sounded like a George Callan joke about getting that guy God. He made me smile when I read it.

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         pisean282311posted 11 years agoin reply to this

         @emile i was giving just another perceptive of looking at it ...

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      Matthew Kirkposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Perhaps it is a historical question, not a religious one in which case Emile R may be spot on. Human sacrifice was common around the time in various cultures. The West was growing out of it, but the middle east?

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   Collisaposted 11 years ago

   I am working on an answer for you. I have to pick up my daughter now - I'll get to this as soon as I can. It's a great question! God bless!
   Lisa

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   jacharlessposted 11 years ago

   Sin: the division of Understanding which is unity of spirit {Creator within} and logic//knowledge {of all elements of creation} genetically built into humans. Throughout history, it has been shown that Reason, the great divide of human understanding has caused his nature to be forgotten. To compensate for that amnesia, man formed religions of both a scientific and sensational nature. Neither is "wrong nor right" commonly known as "good and evil". Both, however result in one singular thing: death. Death for a human is to end its existence, to be no more. After reading thoroughly the texts, one comes to realize the information collectively points to this.
   
   The said works of Moshiach speak often and directly of this issue, and are peppered with events to show humans what they truly are. This man -and some before him, although to a lessor degree- shows human abilities and unlimited power when this divide is reunified. When the connection is once more fluid between mind and spirit, void if the Reason issue, void of "good evil", "right wrong", void of duality. his actions are to show this as being possible. an example -as the text puts it- of many more others, just like him, to come.
   
   This amnesia is removed and the elements pertaining to human death are removed, thus enabling complete reunification and thorough immortality renewed. The text further emphasizes the need to have the individuals memory restored, by that power, to insure said unity remains.
   
   Should these events be as they were expressed and said unification enabled, the element known as sin has been rectified by that action. Therefore the actions of  Reason, of "good evil", "right wrong" are null and void, as man is no longer held captive by his thoughts. Therefore no form of Theos {science & sensation} can be applied. Reason returns to its rightful place as a processor, not master, of the human being. What remains then is one of two options: complete acceptance of the Restoration or continued acceptance of morality, that is one's death and seizure to exist.
   
   This option will continue, I feel, until humanity accepts its "evolution", which is essentially a restoring to their original stasis. Some call it destiny, others heresy, still other ludicrous. But, there is much evidence to support humanities desire and yearning for "peace" within himself, with his environment and his true nature -and that desire is getting stronger, even as the elements of Theos get stronger//more dramatic, climatic. A nature long forgotten and suppressed by the Twins of equation and sensation. The two undeniable elements that have caused mankind all its trouble.
   
   One man's opinion, though, which am sure few -if any- will agree on. But, it is not my place to instruct anyone nor create//destroy belief//disbelief. Doing so makes it just as useless and demeaning. But, I will leave you with this one statement said to have been spoken by Moshiach to the 12 and Magdalene, after his return from the grave, prior to the ruach coming.
   
   "Teacher", they asked, "What is Creator, matter, energy?"
   "It is the Ineffable everything, is all things and in all things -it is you and what made you.
   "Teacher, why do we grow old and die?"
   "Because you still believe in sin, you divide yourself and this causes your body to get sick and die."

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      Mark Knowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Show us Teacher!

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   Jerry Hulseposted 11 years ago

   The Life is in the blood.
   Keep searching and you will find your answer.
   It goes back to breaking God's commandment with Adam & Eve who had God's blood but after they sinned Rom.3:23 says the soul that sinneth shall surely die. I recommend getting my book "The way to God" on Amazon for list price which is the price they charge to print it.

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      brotheryochananposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      adam and eve had Gods blood?
      
      id love to hear more about that

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   brotheryochananposted 11 years ago

   This is the way it was set up from the beginning.
   if we look at the passover feast of the Hebrews we see Jesus.
   Noticing the passover in exodus where a lamb was slain and its blood spread over the door posts and lintel. We simply have a slain lamb with its blood spilt for the purpose of those behind the door being saved.
   When we look to the day of atonement sacrifice we have a scapegoat situation. 2 goats are used (goats, lambs are always interchangeable - lambs being the more precious of the two animals goats were used more often) one for the sacrifice (Jesus) and the other, the one set free (barabbas). The scapegoat was symbolic of Israels sins being forgotten, gotten rid of, disappearing.
   There is so much more that the length of this reply would be very long, but just to keep it brief we have Jesus as both passover and atonement.
   
   With Jesus dying for our sins, He atones those sins and we are passed over from the wrath of God.
   There is much biblical attestation that Jesus is messiah from the front cover to the back cover.
   The shedding of blood shows that sin costs something and is evident within jesus crucifixion, he, as the suffering servant, had to die or be sacrificed to divorce all people from the old laws and ways so that we can marry without fear of adultery - God himself. <-- that goes deeper into the analogy but you can study it yourself in romans 7.

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      Matthew Kirkposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Most of the religious answers have been that it is symbolic; I just don't get the symbolism unless you put it in a historical context of animal sacrifice, which makes it a purely consequential thing, there are no mechanics to it then?

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         Don Wposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         The 'paschal lamb' is the most common exegesis of this tenet I've heard in discussions with Christians. I don't think there is a particular mechanic to it, at least none that I've heard.
         
         The closest thing I've heard is the idea that the crucifixion allowed two attributes of god as characterised in Christianity to be fulfilled. Forgetting about all the sins of humanity without a sacrifice might be loving, but not just. Making everyone pay for the consequences of their sin might be just, but not loving. So a sacrifice fulfilled god's old covenant, i.e. that sacrifice should be made for the atonement of sin. But in making Jesus the sacrifice (as opposed to all of us) god showed love for humanity. Instead of us suffering the consequences of sin, Jesus is said to have suffered it for us, giving everyone another chance (the new covenant). In doing so it is said that the crucifixion can be seen as an act of perfect justice, and of perfect love, both of which reflect two of the main attributes of god as per Christian tradition.

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            Matthew Kirkposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            so vague!

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               Don Wposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               Yeah that's kind of the nature of religion. Claims that are specific might be testable using scientific method, so the vaguer the better as far as maintaining a religion is concerned.

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   bBereanposted 11 years ago

   Matthew,
   
        Great question especially considering the murder of an innocent man was in itself, a sin being committed by the Romans to appease the Jewish leaders.  “A(n innocent) man being killed by a group of Romans” would not in itself wash away sins but rather add to the sin tab for mankind.  I will try to present the answer as concisely as possible although a thorough answer requires an entire book, (the Bible). 
   
        God creates man with free will, man sins (goes against God), God wants the relationship restored, but God is also just and must remain so, which means He cannot ignore the penalty of sin which must be paid and that penalty is death.  Death itself refers to more than one thing, but here I am referring to a separation from God.  Sin is falling short of God’s standard which as you would expect, is perfection.  Every normal man sins thereby incurring his own debt he cannot pay, (if your already imperfect you can’t restore perfection).  No normal man could pay for anyone else’s sins when he can’t even pay for his own.  Think about those credit card commercials that talk about the cost of different things but ends with their catch phrase, so in this application: Sins of mankind = death, Value of a sinless Savior = Priceless.  Jesus is God, (the Trinity is a whole other long discussion), and as the Creator was able to be born a man yet live a sinless life.  He thereby possess the unique qualification to be able to pay the penalty mankind owes, as a man.  Enduring the indignities and suffering put upon Him by men served a few purposes.  Primarily it was fulfilling many unique prophecies which the Jews knew well from their scriptures, which identified Jesus as the Christ they had been promised.  It also illustrated in a very real way that mankind could relate to, the degree of sacrifice God was willing to make to restore a relationship with those who would accept the gift He was offering.  In reality everything Jesus endured as a man was virtually nothing compared to God placing the sins of the world on Him while He was on the cross.  We cannot begin to understand what took place there, so the visual of the suffering we do understand will have to suffice as that too, is unimaginable.  It also needs to be understood that Jesus life was not taken from Him. He willing laid it down and as He promised He would, He picked it up again.  Details of how that works is above my pay grade, but expecting to understand the nuances of such things when we can’t even understand our environment would be ridiculous. 
   
        What we do need to understand is Jesus paid the penalty for all mankind which is why the gift of salvation can be offered.  As with any gift though, it must be accepted.  Remember when I mentioned death was separation from God?  Here is where free will, (without which there could not be true love), comes in.  In order to accept the gift of salvation you must first realize you need it.  How could you sincerely accept the payment on your behalf for a penalty you don’t admit you owe?  How could you sincerely accept that gift from a God you don’t acknowledge exists?  Each person longs to know God and can’t escape it even if he calls his god evolution, mother nature, whatever.  In order to deny accountability to a Creator, and in the hope of avoiding it, folks create a god to suit them.  Hopefully they can thereby appease their conscience and avoid dealing with this issue.  By doing so, however, they make a choice with that free will God has given them.  They reject God and thereby reject his gift.  This then becomes the one sin that can’t be forgiven because ignoring this would be to disrespect the choice to reject Him and negate that whole free will thing.  Ultimately when all the dust settles there are only two places folks can be, either in the presence of God or out of it and He will honor your choice.

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      Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Atheists don't reject God. No one in the right mind would reject a God when confronted with him. The problem is there is no evidence that God exists and a matter of fact there is plenty to indicate the world was not created in six days.
      
      If you could reread your post through the eyes of someone who has never heard of religion you would see how ridiculous your claims are.
      
      Jesus was God, but called him Father. That makes no sense whatsoever, If Jesus was God he would have said "I am God". He also wouldn't have had to appear to only a few.
      
      We wouldn't have had love without free will? Do you even know what love is? It's a chemical reaction in the brain exactly like an addiction. Being around the other person is the fix and the break up is the withdrawal.
      
      You say God gave us free will, while some Christians say they are under God's control. Which is it?

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      Mark Knowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      What utter drivel. I don't need salvation. The very idea of needing to be saved because Adam was deliberately set up to fail is so ridiculous as to be rejected immediately by any one who gives it a moment's thought.
      
      This is why your religion causes so many arguments. It makes no sense at all and anyone who doesn't agree with you is "rejecting god," or "denying accountability (for something they did not do )".

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      A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Yes, so a story is concocted from what "We cannot begin to understand" and "the visual of the suffering" showing evidently that the entire story was made up by others based on what they wanted to believe was occuring.

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         A Troubled Womanposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         

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