There was a women whose right brain was a suicidal maniac and the left a devote christian. She had a stroke which caused a right left dissociation. Suddenly the restricting effect of her left brain is gone and her right brain managed to kill her.
Will she go to heaven?
If she goes, which part of her brain goes to heaven?
The very fact that an injury to the brain can change the personality of the injured is proof that personality and thought as well as consciousness is a product of the brain. Upon death consciousness (thought and control of the subconscious) ends. All memories and thought are gone.
So to answer your question the women does not go to heaven as there is no heaven. You question was proof of that. A little critical thinking would help you come to the same conclusion.
You might see that I do not contest that.
A little critical thinking is unfortunately what I don't see in you. If something is said by someone who call himself a scientist you believe him.
In a reply above I specified that this is applicable only to those people who know there is heaven, which is also implied in the OP.
Sorry, again, nobody knows there is a heaven. One can only hope, think and speculate. You asked a question of which I have an answer for. I've stayed on topic and answered your question, you don't get to stipulate that only only the gullible need apply.
Since the brain is a part of the physical world, how can either side pass into another plane?
Also, if the part of what makes you distinctly you is not a part of the physical world (the part loosely identified as a soul); is it fair to hold it responsible for the actions of faulty hardware? Suppose you are driving a rental car down the highway and the brakes fail. Or, you are house sitting and there is an electrical fire in the walls. How much responsibility do you bear in either situation? Only the parts you have control of. If you have no control, is it fair to imprison you?
The question is only directed to those people who "knows" there is heaven and the ways to get there.
If it is the fault of the hardware, then none of us are responsible for anything we do, we simply react to the circumstances based on our brain programming. And one person's right may be another's wrong.
Not a fault but inherent to the system. There is no 'I' or ego or 'architect of the matrix' - only an interpreter of the parallel processing brain function akin to a political convention whereas the ones with the loudest voice wins.
"Your Interpreter says “I pulled my finger in pain” when you have already made the decision before the awareness of pain. - - b/ChaosFreeWill
There was another woman whose left hand was always folded in prayer while the right hand was holding a gun and shooting innocent people. Did one of her hands got to heaven and the other to hell? The answers to these questions are critical in my faith formation.
Unlike your hypothetical scenario, this was real, called Alien Hand Syndrome, first described by Kurt Goldstein. The lady sometimes, even had to sit on her left hand, to prevent it from strangling her.(She died of another stroke, before her hand could kill her).
Unlike hands, the brain is what make as we.
Her case, after the destruction of brain wiring that connects each half, each half started to behave independently as they couldn't 'communicate' each other, the left bend on killing her and right preventing it, as if she became two personalities, one suicidal and other rational.
If you believe in Heaven why don't you believe in forgiveness and mercy?
I don't believe in Heaven and yet I would have compassion for a woman who went through all of that.
It is not a question of whether I believe in heaven. What we are and what we do, is based on our brain structure and memory, both of which we cannot control. So either every human go to heaven or none.
Asking a question regarding a disease do not mean a lack of compassion, I only want more and more people to think about why we behave the way we behave, which has everything to do with structure and nothing to do with divine.
Once again, you appear confused. Unless one is psychotic, one have control of ones mind. We can let control go and become psychotic or we can control our subconscious with our conscious mind. So you can't blame it all on structure and memory because one can fight the demons so to speak. No human go to heaven because heaven is a lie you have been gullible to.
Do you agree that mind is a function of brain?
Is so any derangement in structure can change function, not psychosis alone. Even psychosis is caused by micro structurall abnormalities.
The given case is a real one and she had no psychosis, was normal just like me or you.
The have been many studies on split brained people. Doctor's we surgically splitting the brain to prevent seizures. These studies and others on injured patients showed where different functions of the brain originate. Very often the two haves would be at odds with one another. There was one case where the left hand had to hold the right hand from hitting her husband. Consciousness resides primarily in the left side as the right side understands language but can't talk.
Exactly my point. So we are not as responsible for our actions as is being traditionally thought, and a deity as described in bible (or similar ones) ought to know it and should not sent anybody to hell. So there is no point in the insistence of believers that they will be going to heaven.
This kinda brings to mind some questions. How do scientist really know that these functions originate in the brain? Is there no way of measuring these functions without the brain?
What I am getting at here is this....
When we receive picture or sound on our TV, the TV will only function if whatever waves exist in the ethers. Without these waves the TV would not be functional. Although it is designed to receive these waves it is useless without the waves.
What if the brain was designed in similar fashion? Scientist could be in error and believe that the functions originate only in the brain, when in all reality the brain may facilitate these waves just like the TV does?
Doctors have been studying people with brain injuries for a long while. It's easier now with CT scans and MRI's, but what they used to do is document the symptoms (different language problems (speak, write, read) or any change in personality. When that person dies they autopsy the brain and document where the injury is. For instance an injury to the mid left of the brain (known as Broca's area) causes Broca's aphasia. Which is a non-fluent language disorder that affect speech, reading and writing.
In the case of the split brained patients they discovered that the right brain is incapable of speech, but can yet answer question (like pick up the ball), but when asked why they picked up the ball they have no idea why or if it's evan a ball.
Another example of the functions of the brain would be during surgery. Medication can stop consciousness totally. If consciousness were not a function of the brain one would remain conscious.
Perhaps? Yet when we turn a TV off the wave/s that allow us to view and hear TV do not cease to exist, the TV just no longer facilitates those functions because we turned it off. If we take out the part of the TV that facilitates the pictures we will not see a picture and hear only the sound. If we took out the speakers we would still see the picture but will not hear the sound.
Does that mean then that these waves cease to exist... No. It just means that, that which facilitates these waves no longer function in the manner the TV was built for, because we have altered it.
Perhaps it is the same thing with the brain? Remove or damage parts and it will function differently. Turn it off via medicine it ceases to function as it did. When the medicine wears out it resumes it's normal function.
We are more like a computer than tv.
We do not relay but react.
Yes, but a damaged brain does not resume normal function. Mental (psychological) trauma and decease can effect personality and memory. What does this mean when we die? It means we can't take our personality or our memories with us when we die.
Agree. Rarely can a damaged brain resume it's normal functions. In saying that, brain plasticity is finding that when parts of the brain have been damaged it can sometimes create new pathways to compensate for the damage. They are still researching last time I heard.
I doubt personality or our memories as a coherent whole can be taken with us when die, however, if our consciousness does not originate in the brain and is like the waves that we know exist in the ethers, we are not that much different to TVs or other like technologies. Our bodies then are machine like that facilitate whatever waves we do not know exist yet....
Which brings to mind a question I was once asked.
Does a blind and deaf, new born child who is paralized from the neck down have thoughts?
I would think; certainly!
If so, what kind of thoughts would they be?
They would be pretty basic thoughts - if any at all. We humans possess very little cognitive ability until later development. These cognitive skills come mostly through information processing. New born humans have only reflexive motor skills for about 6 weeks and eventually these automatic reflexive motor skills become intentional - some of them.
We don't actually begin to reason until several years old and it takes several years to develop this skill. In a child that is blind, deaf and paralyzed, I suspect these cognitive skills would be extremely slow to develop - if they developed at all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Piaget … evelopment
This is why religious people like to indoctrinate children as young as possible. At a young age - we are incapable of determining the difference between true and false, but we are strongly driven to believe what our elders tell us.
Nothing further to add, still,
What we do or think depends on our gross brain structure at birth and the changes in the microstructure that occur based on the inputs. The reward and punishment works at this stage because it reinforces or dilutes the existing structure ( Which can extend to adulthood owing to the plasticity of brain) but we have no control on the external stimuli either. So we are NOT responsible for what we do to merit heaven or hell.
Their thinking, I imagine, would be so different to ours in the sense that it would be less tainted by conditioning. The ability to convey those thoughts might be limited. A mama's gentle stroking of the face or kiss might invoke thoughts and feelings of love. A nice tasty meal might invoke a feeling of satisfaction and contentment. The many aroma's that are present at any given time may invoke thoughts of beauty or love. The opposite might occur too. So yes maybe they do and maybe they live contently because they would not be aware of not having what they don't have.
You are in the wrong forum, the topic is not whether heaven exists, it is 'whether the women described can go to heaven, IF there is one?'
I think it's okay to ask for clarification of terms so one can form an opinion.
I agree wholeheartedly, a clarification or definition is always necessary to avoid ambiguity, but if I remember correctly you were not much fond of definitions, but I might be mistaking you for someone else.
But as I already told, and there are only a few posts to read, my question is directed only at those who say there is heaven (Whatever that is and the general meaning is a place where humans go after death where there is only happiness)
If one think there is nothing after death or there is no utopia before death, the question has no meaning.
The question still has meaning for one who thinks there is no heaven. It's still a yes or no answer. You can't decide who gets to answer the questions you ask.
The question is about going to heaven.
For somebody who has no heaven, the only meaning that can be related to is about the working of brain and responsibility for ones action, which is not the topic of discussion, meaningless regarding the question is what I meant.
If you say there is no France, what is the point in asking you whether someone can go to France?
It's important to note that I still have an answer and am aloud to voice my opinion. It's like me asking the question "are religious people delusional?" but demanding only Atheists reply. You don't get to be the school yard bully telling people who can play and who can watch.
You are welcome.
Are you not understanding me or are you simply trying to be confrontational?
The question was Christianity, the Bible and Jesus»
Can this women go to heaven?
And the question is a loaded one, it implied there is heaven.
The question's answer was an yes or no one. Yes/no the women can/not got to heaven because.......or you can point out that the question is wrong.
When you answer "what is heaven", that is an answer but not the answer to the question, and I only pointed that out. I didn't say do not answer because you are not supposed to, what I said was you are answering the wrong question, a question that was not asked.
Actually the bully is hubpages, not me.
"What are the Forum rules?
We ask that all Hubbers choosing to participate adhere to these guidelines, in order to maintain the kind of resource everyone will love using and feel comfortable participating in:
Stick to the Topic: Please stay on the thread’s topic when replying to an existing thread. If you don’t see an open thread about something you’d like to discuss, please open a new thread."
you want to discuss whether there is heaven, start a new thread, says hubpages.
We both agree there is no heaven. This topic is asked to make those persons who think there can be a heaven, to understand the futility of it. I am presenting a conundrum, a real world conundrum, and let them conclude for themselves. May be still their answer is there is a heaven and then I'm interested in knowing how they reached the conclusion.
Just as I thought, you are not being honest. If you do not think there is a heaven, be honest. Intelligence has very little if anything to do with a belief in heaven.
Didn't I tell you before, even in the comment to which you replied, there is no heaven.
Quote from the previous post "Between,
We both agree there is no heaven. "
Did I, at any point, said there is heaven?
I state once more, The question is only for those persons WHO THINK there is heaven, other words the question is directed to such people, doesn't mean I think there is heaven. IS this too complicated a language for you not to understand?
And I am interested in knowing why people think there is heaven and what they think happens to the women if there is heaven, hence the question. If you do not think there is heaven, you have no answers for it.
You're allowed in the conversation, but I'm not. You're not being honest because you didn't mention you thoughts in the question. You're letting people think you're wondering if she can get into heaven, when you don't even think there is a heaven yourself.
Have you got some comprehension problem, really?
You too can answer if you can answer the question. If you have no answer to the question, why are you trying to answer?
My thoughts? Didn't I tell you that? Only a person who think there is heaven can answer the question. Anybody who speculate about the existence can also think about it and I'm interested in knowing what that think and their inference. I'm intetested in knowing how they solve the conundrum.If I'm not interested in knowing, or if I'm able to solve it, why should I ask in the first place?
Didn't you just tell me YOU don't think there is a heaven? I have no comprehension problem at all. I understand everything that you have said, but agree with very little of it.
I asked the question not answered it. Some persons, including you, answered the wrong question and I merely pointed it out.
The question is one of the reasons why I think there is no heaven. By asking the question, either someone will find a solution- most probably not, or they too will come to the conclusion that there can be no heaven.
But you might have noticed that those who vociferously vouch for heaven haven't attempted to answer the question, they ignored it. But I'm happy that they ignored it, because that also gives me some answer, that human beings see only that they wanted to see and ignore the rest. At least some 'heavenly' persons might have read it, but as it will challenge their pre-existing beliefs they ignored it.
So, information or sound arguments are not going to change anyone, nor are they going to make them thinkdifferently. The forums are a waste as a place for "discussions", people come here just to preach.
riddle, you are asking a question that requires an nswer from someone who believes there is a heaven. I understand. For those who believe in heaven there must also be a belief in God. Heaven is a non physical place/realm/demension that exist within us and outside of us. The same with God. God is just - God is love, therefore God does not hold us accountable for things which we have no control over. If we are insane, mentally deficient, ignorant...etc., we are not able to make decision that God would deem to be right or wrong. Now there is more to us than a physical form. We are also a spiritual being. The physical form does not go to heaven - Only the spiritural which holds all the information of our lives. That part of us continues. The brain is an organ that functions like the "brain" in my computer. I have to ad programs if I want it to perform certain functions. The better the program the better it will perform and the more options I will have. I make those decisions and I instill the programs. Now if my computer gets contaminated, infected, damaged, etc. it will no long work as well or at all, but my information could still be there, though unuseable. Now someone might ask, then why doesn't the spirit take over and control the brain so the body will function properly. Because the spirit is not the controlly mechanism of a human. The brain is. The spirit is not wired to us. The brain is. The spirit speaks to the brain, but the brain has to be able to understand. Having said all that, my answer is this - Maybe yes or maybe no. Only God can answer that question, because God does not judge the brain, but the heart. He does not judge the action alone, but the intent. God knows our thoughts, and He know why we do what we do, so the decision is His. Those who know such a damaged person can assume the answer by their own judgment of the persons life, but they could be wrong. So you are asking a question that none of us can answer, we can only tell you what we believe or think.
Your answer essentially is you do not know, that's ok.
If your spirit cannot control the body, the spirit is not responsible for what the body think or does, so cannot be punished for what the body does.
As for brain and heart, it is the same, as shown by this women. Her one side of brain has an innate tendency for suicide which was kept in check by the opposite, the check which was destroyed by the stroke. Though we think we have free will, cases like this shows that what we think and do is dependent greatly on our brain structure which we cannot control, and are really not responsible for what we do.
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