I've been thinking about this a lot lately. Everybody wants to speak for God. I don't understand why. It seems to me, if God had a point to make, he could do it himself? If he isn't talking, and you are a believer, it seems safe to assume there is a perfectly logical reason. Why constantly attempt to put words in his mouth?
I just think the religious are afraid he doesn't exist.
This isn't meant as an inflammatory thread. I have just come to believe that believers don't really believe. They just hope they are right.
Believing without experiencing requires a huge amount of faith. Especially when the logic and intellect get involved. If anyone challenges the believers logic or intellect. faith can appear to be lacking. Mainly because now one tries to limit God and fit God into the box of the logic.
The simplicity of belief...one must first have knowledge to exercise True belief....
and it is not a question of doing any special things...but merely being who you are.
otherwise it is unbelief...
All would be in unbelief for a while, So humility of one while therein proves that one, thus he his unbelief is transformed into belief by knowledge.
This exposes all religion and many many more..
I don't think that many believers actually believe the stuff that comes out of their mouths. If they did they would be better people and America would have universal health care.
To your question "Do The Devoutly Religious Lack Faith"? No, but they do lack critical thinking skills.
The percentage of devoutly religious, by the definition used to start this thread, isn't high enough to ensure universal health care. The absence of that can be blamed on all of us. I'm not interested in transferring blame.
One does not have to be devoutly religious to support universal heath care. I'm an example and so is the rest of Canada and Europe.
I agree, but by your post you implied that if the devoutly religious had faith we would have universal health care. But I'd rather not have America adopt universal health care if we end up like Europe. I've heard enough (not to mention seen the effects of universal dental care over there)
Yes, American's are constantly being told how universal heath care doesn't work by people making lots of money off the American health care system until they move up to Canada and see how it works. Then they don't leave.. Have you seen sicko?
I thought it was Christians that wanted to help the poor and needy?
My opinion of health care in other nations is brought about by personal experiences shared by people from those nations. But also, by a natural distrust of government that is a corner stone of standard American philosophy. The problem with allowing the government to control anything is that you lose personal accountability and open the door to pork barrel politics. If you had bothered to read throught the lengthy legislation that is Washington's idea of addressing a problem we the people felt existed you would understand this. The American public was sold out because corporate interests don't know when to stop gouging and start caring. And politicians can't grasp the concept of working for the good of all. As long as 'what's in it for me' is the mantra of those in power, we don't need to give them more powers.
And, to be quite honest, I'm sick and tired of footing the bill for medical research that benefits the entire world while the rest of the world gets prescription drugs at less than half the price our citizens pay. I'm not sure how any of the citizens of other countries would react if we were able to level the playing field and they had to offer comparable compensation for their prescription drugs. Not that I trust prescriptions enough to take one, but those whose health affords them no other option lose a good percentage of their income every month covering the bill.
Believing for me is in the form of strong feelings of the reality of a higher power in the world. This is not a controling power and perhaps not an all knowing power but a power of goodness and wonder. I do not think that I am putting words in God's mouth when I share these feelings as I am merely trying to describe it. Faith is more like a discipline, a reminder when some events and experiences do not always seem to support these feelings. I guess I am religious in the sense that my belief in God and Christ has been my connection, for the most part, to this reality while I recognize and appreciate the many other forms of spirituality that I see around me as well as the goodness I see in many of those who do not believe.
Have a nice day.
Good point about many of the loudest religous being afraid their arguement being incorect.
Maybe all people are all like that a little bit. Whatever the issue, the greater number of people that I can get to agree with me, the more validated I feel.
I am not sure that God said everything as depicted in “The Bible” After all there are SOooo many translations and interpretations. Each one seems to cast a different light on so many issues. Which one of these is the closest to correct ?? no one could know.
I don’t know about anyone else but I as sure as I can be that there is a plane of existence other than the one we are on. And I feel confident that these (at least two) are relative; which would suggest interaction between the two,
Kinda like one of those mirrors at the police station. And that other side only lets us know what we need to know.
I also think that while we are arguing about different religious beliefs, we are being distracted so that we are not investigating other stuff which would prove detrimental to both sides.
I am sure there are some folks who are seeking validation. If they can convince others to believe what they tell themselves they believe it makes them feel more confident. With religions like atheism, I am not sure what other reason they would have for trying so diligently to win converts. For many religions, however, there is a directive from the church to evangelize, making it difficult to use those activities as a barometer of an individual's faith. For Christians and folks who consider themselves to be Christian, they have a directive from Christ Himself, so again, evangelizing may in itself be evidence of faith. Faithful will evangelize. Are there folks who claim to be Christian who do it for validation? Undoubtedly. Those may fall away...or they may come to faith. As for God speaking directly to unbelievers, according to the Bible, He has through creation. It testifies of Him. Nobody would believe a Corvette happened by chance, but it is exponentially less complex than a single cell....and not even alive. Hope that helps.
Since evolution doesn't happen by chance anyways, your point about the Corvette is valid.
If not by chance then is it on purpose? If so, whose purpose? What is purpose? How much does purpose weigh? How does science quantify purpose? Where does purpose come from? Expand to thought, love, joy, passion, justice...where do all these things originate from and why do they exist according to the materialist? It appears science is silent on pretty much everything that matters most to us. Why do we care? "Science" doesn't know.
I can only conclude by your responses here that you have not taken the time to understand evolution, yet you appear to be criticizing it. Why would you do that?
If you know very little about science, which appears evident, how you can make that assertion?
ATM, I have long studied many religions, including those claiming to be science, which frequently incorporate one or more of the many versions of evolution theory. You didn't answer my questions because science can't. Science is limited to the material, but life is much more, as evidenced by the fact that you are even able to ponder any question. Thinking, reasoning, consciousness, etc. are all outside the realm of the material, but admitting that leads right back to a creator. Hiding behind and within genuine scientific observation are many religions which bluff having answers relating to matters beyond the material world. When cornered, their only defense is to avoid the question and turn it back on the person asking, demanding that the emperor they represent actually has clothes and anyone doubting them must be fools. Lots of folks are intimidated by the ploy, making it effective, so it perpetuates. It seems over time some folks even convince themselves that they possess superior intelligence and those who question their "science" simply aren't capable of understanding.
But, you actually have never taken the time to learn evolution, just religions.
It would appear you don't even know what science is all about, it doesn't tell us anything about philosophical questions.
Nonsense, thinking, reasoning and the consciousness are all characteristics of the brain, which is physical and therefore in the realm of science.
LOL. So, because you put forth a philosophical that science doesn't answer, it's a ploy?
I've read the gospels and I see no evidence that Jesus gave Christians a mandate to evangelize. I've heard that argument all of my life, but it is not supported by the text. They are more akin to the people Jesus spoke to. Such as the ones sitting on the hillside listening to the sermon on the mount. They are not apostles.
Considering oneself an apostle shows a lack of humility, which causes all of the problems that run rampant throughout religion.
You know, that's an interesting idea, Emile. Throughout my faith life, I've run into so many different kinds of believers. In my experience, the deepest believers - those whose faith is most certain - tend to quietly live their faith and pray privately for others. BUT, what I have noticed is that these are generally mature believers. Those who have either been truly walking their faith for the majority of their life, or those who have been tested in numerous ways and come out stronger on the other end of the struggles.
The ones who often shout the loudest and hit the hardest with the Bible are the ones who are very young in their understanding of their own faith.
And, I hate to sound like a broken record, but there most definitely is a difference between believers and 'religious' folk. Religion truly is man made.
I love this. You said what I wanted to get across, but did it so much better ;~D
My mother was lamenting to me one day about a good friend who did not believe what her religion taught her about going to a better place after death. She faithfully attends mass every Sunday and even though she is very knowledgeable about her religion, she has no faith.
My mother, on the other hand, stopped attending church years ago and is a deeply spiritual person. Though she is naturally afraid of the unknown, she is not afraid of what awaits her after death and has faith that there is something bigger.
I commented to my mother that her friend might be very religious, but she was not a "believer". We talked for quite a while about non believers being more religious than most of the believers we knew.
Hello ahorseback.. I assume that comment was directed at me, the OP. It's always hard to tell with you. You tend to throw out posts without naming who, exactly, has stuck in your craw. For future reference, I don't label myself an atheist. I'm more of an observer, not inclined to take up a label without hard evidence to support it.
I am actually a great fan of the historical Jesus, but not a fan of the Jesus that has been created by religion who appears to manifest as a giant chip on religious adherents shoulders. I'm not sure I completely understand how that could possibly equate to any more than the occasional ulcer and a constant level of discomfort in daily life.
A fricking religionist set me off with their post in another thread.
I am sick of being buried with all the religion crap here.
Emile , I can assume then that you are merely searching for answers here instead of the usual 'lets see if I can step on some toes " type of thread , I get a little edgy when I see these obviously pointed faith questions , -"Do The Devoutly Religious Lack Faith ?" answer - No these humble fellow human beings of yours and mine merely question their own level faith from time to time ! I take it you are not a devout believer or that you would understand that yes , even those of "devout faith" are also human .....Lets just say I like sticking up for the underdog ! I too am more of an observer than a participant , yet I observe quite clearly when the O.P.s are a bit pushy !
Sorry if you perceived the question as pushy. My primary problem is that so many insist so much in the name of an unseen God and most claims could only be true if this entity weren't unseen and unheard from with a universal ear. Most claims fall short simply because they are so over reaching. If what some say 'God says' flies in the face of reality then I simply see the words as a desire to be God. Not a desire to know God. I don't see faith as a factor in many religious posts. I was talking out loud when I posted the thread. My bad, I guess.
Just saying,what differnce is there in a believer bringing into question his own weakness for his own faith than ,say a non-believer questioning that same persons faith. I mean where do you stand asking this question to begin with. Whats the intent but to push a button if you don't care anyway ! ......This may not be your intent , but I gotta say ........if it quacks like a duck! No insult intended at all, by the way, I'm only as human as you are !
These threads of hypocracy by the non-faithful know no bounds my friend ! You are what you eat !
You are what you eat? I'm currently consuming a bag of Snyder's Honey Mustard and Onion Pretzel Pieces. I don't feel like a pretzel. Am I in denial?
Hey, come on ahorseback- not all the non religious upset people. Where ever I can I help people! I'm clearly an atheist and I eat junk. See how much we have in common.
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