If God wants total dependence, Why would He give us our abilities?

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   Deepes Mindposted 12 years ago

   In quite a few discussions and forums, I've noted that both atheists and Believers state that the God of the bible wants (or demands, depending on who is looking at it) that his followers not only worship Him, but to also depend on Him for everything.
   
   My question is this, If God's desire (working on the premise that one exists) is for everyone to depend on Him for everything, then why would he give us the abilities that he has as well as the free will to decide how to use those abilities?

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      Aloke Mukherjeeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Deepes, you are absolutely right. we have our abilities and free will to work on. We have fight through our existence to reach a state of bliss.But bliss is there to reach.

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         Deepes Mindposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Thank you. We have so many abilities that we were Given by God and the instruction on using them, but some believers don't use them

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            A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Abilities, such as?

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               Deepes Mindposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Hey ATM.. Was wondering when you would be showing up on this forum..Here is your laugh for the day.
               
               What I mean is that working on the premise that God exists (since I have no actual proof), There are things that believers pray to him directly for that he has already given us the ability to do for ourselves.. The bible states that we were made in God's image. I created a forum asking others what that means to them and I got similar answers from both believers and atheists that only pointed to a physical likeness or representation (meaning God is human with human features.. etc). When I look at that scripture, I interpreted that scripture to me that we have some of the same characteristics OF God, but not the same AS God. digging into that further, we have the ability to create life (but instead of doing it how God created Adam, we have to have sex). We have the ability to heal others and ourselves (with medicine and medical procedures as well as the body's natural ability to regenerate cells and fight off infections).
               Based on these examples as well as some other scriptures, I have concluded that in actuality, some believers pray to God and depend on God (if He is real out of respect to lack of believers) for wayyyyy more than they actually should be because most of what some pray to God to do for them they have the ability to do for themselves.
               
               This is why I have so much respect for atheists. You guys live a life that we are supposed to be living, which is a life where God is not interfering in our day to day lives because we have the ability to think, reason, and do things on our own as well as the morals and ethics to do the right thing BECAUSE it is the right thing, not because you are afraid that someone is watching over your shoulder and going to punish you for making a mistake or reward you at the end. 
               
               
               There you go. This is part of my beliefs.. I await your response, though I have a feeling that I already know what it is going to be (for the most part)

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                  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  I have yet to see you offer anything that supports your claim God gave us those abilities, or any others.
                  
                  In fact, we do have the ability to think and reason, yet believers rarely if ever use them. We have morals and ethics, yet believers turn to their scriptures that often contradict morals and ethics.
                  
                  Again, what abilities exactly did god give us?
                  
                  So far, with believers, it appears to be the abilities are only ignorance and intolerance.

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                     Deepes Mindposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     Maybe you missed it, but I did say that I did not have any proof specific that would support what I have stated. I am not asserting that what I just stated is the absolute truth. This is only a conclusion that I have drawn based on my understanding and as such I can admit that although it makes sense (to me), I could be wrong. These things are only my views and opinions. I don't hold them to be actual facts.
                     
                     As far as your general statement about believers and intolerance and ignorance, I agree with you that this is the case with a lot of believers (heck, there are believers that have blasted me when I presented this idea to them) it is not the case with all believers. Maybe there is something I said toward you that may have seemed intolerant to you (and if so I apologize, it is never my intent to offend), but I personally believe in live and let live. I certainly cannot and will not condemn anyone to a place that I have no proof of the existence of. I admit that I do not know everything, but I am still trying to learn as much as I can. What I presented to you was only a belief working on the premise of if there is a God (considering that I have no proof). I know that I have stated that I believe in God, But a lot of my views actually lean more toward being agnostic because I don't know for sure if what I believe is correct because it hasn't been proven and whatever i state here could be wrong  because it is only my opinion. Now once it is proven one way or the other then my thought process will change as accordingly.
                     
                     
                     
                     On another note, I appreciate that you responded the way that you did to me. You might think it is rubbish but at the very least you appeared to give what I was saying some type of consideration and not outright ridiculing or laughing at it like you do some of the other believers.

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                        A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        Yeah, I get that. The problem is how can anyone arrive at those conclusions from your explanations. Mind boggling.
                        
                        
                        
                        No, you have said nothing intolerant to me personally. No worries there, dude.
                        
                        
                        
                        I would suspect that a more in-depth study on your part into evolution could show you how our abilities evolved along with us.

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                           Deepes Mindposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                           These conclusions are based on My understanding as well as asking what else could be meant by that specific scripture.  It may seem crazy to some, but it makes more sense to me than to believe that God interjects himself into everything that happens every step of the way. I have even been blasted by believers when I presented this to them as well. My comments were aimed at those who Pray to God for a baby (when we have the ability to make one ourselves), Pray for healing (when we have doctors and medicines), or for money and wealth (when we can go get jobs, start businesses...etc) then sit around and wait on God to provide these things. There is another scripture that says that faith without works is dead, which (to me) means that you can pray and believe God all you want for everything that you want, but if you don't put in the effort yourself, then you won't get what you want.
                           
                           
                           
                           
                           Ok, just checking since you made that general statement regarding believers, intolerance, and ignorance. I was hoping that you viewed me differently than other believers (other than the whole delusional belief in God thing...LOL)
                           
                           
                           
                           I actually, I have read and studied up on a lot of things scientific (science was my favorite subject in school). This is why I don't think God is consistently doing things on a second by second basis (as some believe). I believe that God (if He is real) basically set things up from the beginning and then walked away (so to speak. I do not subscribe to the belief that God is micro managing every aspect of our lives.  Whether it is proven that God does not exist, I appreciate the answers that science and those who have researched and studied have provided up to this point and continuing to find more answers

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                              A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                              That's why I suggested a more in-depth study into evolution so you can see for yourself gods have nothing to do with our abilities.

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                                 Deepes Mindposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                 I get your point

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                                 janesixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                 Darwinian evolution is a joke.

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                                    Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                    Really Jane? Pity the fools who spend their entire careers in in-depth study of genetics, palaeontology, astronomy, biology,........

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                                       janesixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                       Yes, they should spend more time trying to improve themselves spiritually.

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                                          Deepes Mindposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                          If scientists spent the time in a manner you are referring to, then who would have been around to do the researches to discover the advances that we take advantage of daily?

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                                             janesixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                             Do you mean advances like nuclear weapons, Monsanto (my satan) frankenfood, hormone and canabalistic cow meat, those kinds of advances? Factories that pollute the water and the oceans and the air? Plastics that will never decompose? So that 5 percent of the population can live in comfort while the rest are malnourished and have to force thier children to pick trough garbage piles looking for things to sell or recycle?

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                                                Deepes Mindposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                                Advances in medicine (which you utilize, I'm sure), processes for food preservation, technology (like the phone you use as well as the computer that you are using, transportation (which you use unless you are telling me you walk everywhere).. need I go on?

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                                                   janesixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                                   Of course you ignored my point. Do you enjoy the fact that you have the privelege of using these luxuries at others' expense?
                                                   
                                                   Wake up.
                                                   
                                                   Our lifestyle is making the lives of billions a miserable horror. And no one really cares.

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                                                      Deepes Mindposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                                      And you are asking me this question while you are using the same thing that you are blasting me about..
                                                      
                                                      I'm done.. I can't even anymore.. That is the funniest thing ever. If you feel that strongly about it, then go head and give up all of your advances and become Amish
                                                      
                                                      
                                                      No, I did not ignore your point. It's true that there have been a lot of harmful things that have been done, but there is bad and good in everything. You wanted only to focus on the bad while I was pointing to the good..

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                                                         janesixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                                         Of course you are looking at the good. You want to stay comfortable in your warm little bubble.
                                                         
                                                         Looking at the bad, in yourself and in the world, makes you have to choose whether you are willing to help change it or not.
                                                         
                                                         Plus, looking at the bad makes you feel icky, and who wants that?

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                                                            Deepes Mindposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                                            You can make that snap judgment of me if you choose (which goes against the bible, by the way), but you have no idea of the things I do. I mentioned the good, but you chose to focus on the bad.. go figure. I haven't seen anything regarding your efforts to change the world either

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                                                               janesixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                                               The Bible? Really? What does that have to do with God?

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                                                A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                                Yet, you use all the things science has provided for you. And, while you sit there whining, you yourself add to the pollution and the malnutrition others experience. Contradict much? lol

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                                                   janesixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                                   I don't recall whining or contradicting anything. I even think I mentioned "our" lifestyle, which includes me as well.
                                                   
                                                   You can't help change anything until you yourself are changed, and that only comes from God.

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                                                      A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                                      You and I both know that isn't even remotely true, quite the contrary, in fact. The dismal results of the last several thousand years of religious rule and mindset is what needs changing, not more embracing.

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                                                         janesixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                                         Believe what you want. Stay in a morass of crap, that's up to you. Have fun.

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                                                            A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                                            

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                                          A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                          And, how exactly does one achieve that magical act?

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                                             janesixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                             Nothing to do with magic at all. In fact it's pretty easy.

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                                                A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                                If it's so easy, why not just explain it here?

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                                                   janesixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                                   I will.
                                                   
                                                   Meditate.
                                                   
                                                   Ask God for forgiveness.
                                                   
                                                   That's about it.
                                                   
                                                   The only thing is you have to be sincere and really want to meet God and have him transform you.
                                                   
                                                   You can't fool God, he knows your heart.

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                                                      A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                                      So basically, sit quietly and talk to myself as if to a small child.
                                                      
                                                      
                                                      
                                                      
                                                      
                                                      And, you aren't fooling anyone, either.

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                                    A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                    That's probably why you never took the time to understand it.

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      Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Good question. I think that if the Adam & Eve fable tells us anything it's that God expects us to be grown up, use the God given abilities we have, make our own decisions, and accept full responsibility for the choices we make. I think Christians confuse the statement attributed to Jesus about coming to the Father as a child that they must be totally dependant upon him for every detail of their lives. This is enforced by the idea that we're useless filthy sinners capable of nothing.

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         Deepes Mindposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Good points DPH.

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   janesixposted 12 years ago

   Because God wants you to choose to be good. It's still a choice, but you have to be sincere.

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      Deepes Mindposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Thank you for responding, but my question wasn't a question on doing right or doing wrong. My question is more about those who Depend on God totally for everything. A lot of Christians pray that God's will be done in everything they do and pray that God gives them everything, then they sit and wait, which negates more than a few scriptures in the Bible. with that being said, I ask again, if We are to totally be dependent on God for EVERYTHING, why would God have give us our abilities?
      
      
      You also made a good point. If God wants us to make the choice to do good for ourselves so he gave us free will, that would (or should IMO) negate the concept that he wants us totally dependent to the point where he steps in and interferes with everything

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   Deepes Mindposted 12 years ago

   Ok.. That conversation is done (as far as I'm concerned). Back to the original topic of this forum

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   JMcFarlandposted 12 years ago

   A Morass of crap.  Wow.  That's some love you have there for other human beings.

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      Deepes Mindposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Hey JM.. Nice to see you.. Hey, Before you jump into that conversation, can you answer my question?? Thanks..

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         JMcFarlandposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         I think the answer is simple.  Christianity has told people that they have a disease, and then provided the cure for it before that disease has ever been sufficiently established.  It tells people from an incredibly young age that they're worthless without god.  They're evil.  Tainted.  Sinful.  Then they provide the cure of "salvation" for all of the immorality. 
         
         It's when you start to break out of that when you start to see different truths.  I think Christians are taught to be dependent on god and to distrust their own instincts and intelligence.  Christianity from the beginning has De-emphasized learning, intelligence and knowledge.  After all, it's the tree of KNOWLEDGE of good and evil that damned mankind to begin with.  And again, I say - without the knowledge of good and evil, it's impossible to know that what you're doing is wrong and be condemned forever because of it.  I think that this indoctrination has led current believers to distrust their abilities, instincts and knowledge SO MUCH that they're completely incapable of recognizing that they CAN do things for themselves without divine help, which I find remarkably sad.
         
         If god already has a predetermined plan for every single individual on the planet, then intercessory prayer becomes irrelevant.

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            Deepes Mindposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Thank you for your answer, my friend

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            A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            It is not difficult to understand why the world is in its current state. We embrace mindless ideologies based on belief systems. It's little wonder why schools never get proper funding, why research grants are given away to cranks and crackpots from politicians driven by the good book.

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      janesixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      The world isn't a morass of crap? Please, tell me what is wonderful about it, can you find anything about it that humans haven't ruined yet?
      
      And what does that have to do with my love for other human beings? I at least have enough compassion to try to wake you sleepers UP.

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         JMcFarlandposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         That's a kind of compassion (through judgment and self-righteous indignation) that I can do without, thanks.

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         Deepes Mindposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         If what you have spoken is your idea of love and compassion... I pass. Thanks anyway

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         A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         That's what happens when  you leave responsibility in the hands of believers.
         
         
         
         *yawn*

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         A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Are you joking? I've been all over the planet and have seen sites that took my breath away, some right in my own back yard. It's not really possible to not find wonder in so many places.

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