why are we as believers so hated?

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   atomswifeyposted 15 years ago

   I asked the question but yet, have my own answer. I am just curious as to what anyone else might think as well.
   
   From my perspective, I find it rather funny that even on a website directed mostly at adults that we find such a great deal of immature attitudes reflective of hatred towards us as believers.
   
   However I exmaine where it comes from, who it is directed at and so on.
   Ok, so all of these people would not be so willing I would wager to reflect such hatred towards those of other nationalities, and yet they obviously feel very comfortable with directing it at people of faith. hmmm, puzzleing this is, unless you attach scripture to it.
   
   John 15:18-21
   
   “If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you... If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you... because they do not know Him who sent Me."
   
   Matthew 10:16-20
   
   “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues....But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you."
   
   So in looking at the above scriptures we can clearly see then that
   1) we will be hated, mocked and persecuted because of our faith, our beliefs, but all of this is because of those who persecute do not know who has sent us. Jesus. God.
   
   So, We are to bless those that curse us. We are to forgive and love. We are to pray for and uplift them to God.
   
   and
   2) In respect to the second scripture I posted We are to openly confess and illustrate Gods Word and when we are delivered up, or called out and persecuted for it we know who is really being persecuted. For it is not we who speak but the spirit of God which speaks through us.
   
   It is knowing this fact that we can walk through the darkness as lights to the world.
   Being not ashamed of the Gospel but declaring it loudly and proudly!
   we are justified in that sense of the word Pride. We can take pride that our God has supplied us with such an awe inspiring Work of Art as His book is and gave us instruction to share it as both at times, loud and proud! We can take pride in the fact that we are children of the living and most Awesome Lord that He is! We can be proud to be a part of His kingdom and that in that too are these who though now are still disbelieving that through our testimony of Who He is, How much He loves them, How much He truly loves ALL that they come to know truth and dwell with Him as well. How amazing and wonderful that is! That all are called upon! All are given His love so completely. Regardless of sin! How great is that? \
   Wow! Are we blessed or what?
   I cannot speak for anyone else, But I am soooo very grateful that God/Jesus Did what He did!!!
   Not so just I or a chosen few can be with Him in all that perfect love, perfect peace but that ALL could. If they only recieve that, accept that.
   
   Now is then only right to share what we know with the world? Even if in doing that, we come up against opposition to it?
   we should not hide our lights under bushels or quench our fire at the site of opposition! To the contrary we are to STAND and when we have done all to, Keep standing!
   
   Any thoughts?

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      kartika damonposted 15 years agoin reply to this

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      cosetteposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      who hates you?
      
      also, if you think someone hates you, do you think they hate you just for your beliefs, or for some other reason?
      
      do they hate just you, or all "believers"?

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         Eaglekiwiposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         Nobody hates anybody , it just an attention getting tactic, shame on you Atomswife

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         R.G. San Ramonposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         this could spark a new thread!
         
         "Who do you hate more? Believers or atomswifey?

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      Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      It's not you that I hate, it's your attitude. And not every believer shares your attitude. I know plenty of them who manage to parade their beliefs without being offensive. You either don't know how to do this, or you don't care, or you actually get off on being offensive. But to answer your question, I'll point out to you in your own post exactly the reason I hate your attitude.
      
      First, you are referring to non-believers' hatred towards you. So when you make reference to those who hate you, whether through scripture or your own words, you're talking specifically about non-believers. That's me.
      
      
      Here you separate yourself from non-believers by implying that they are the only ones on here being immature. You fail to see your own immaturity.
      
      
      Here you set yourself higher than non-believers by saying that you possess knowledge and insight that they do not possess. You fail to take the attitude that it may be you who are at fault for being offensive. You ignore the possibility that others simply see reality differently than you. Instead you place them in a negative light as lacking some special knowledge that only you (believers) possess.
      
      Then, after you've placed yourself in such a lofty position, thereby denigrating non-believers, you turn around and speak out of another mouth. You push your offensiveness aside and put on airs of being benevolent, as though that's enough to mask the degradation you just got finished spewing.
      
      Here you go right back to elevating yourself to the status of deity. Saying your words are not yours, but those of God. Not only does this further downgrade non-believers, but it gets you off the hook for being offensive and demeaning by placing the responsibility on God.
      
      Here it is again. The third time. You elevate yourself and degrade non-believers. But this way of doing it is especially provocative. You call yourself the light, and everyone else the darkness. This has multiple layers of self-exaltation mixed with abasement toward others.
      
      Do you get an idea of why non-believers might get a little pissed at you? You're pompous in the worst way, because you don't just puff yourself up, you deflate others in the process. And the worst part of it all is that you seem totally ignorant of how you appear to others. And you seem totally ignorant of there being alternate ways of seeing the world that are just as intelligent, wholesome, and virtuous as you think yours is.

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         atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         First of all you are wrong because that was the first time I ever quoted that scripture.
         Second you are wrong because you take it completely out of context. Putting yourself in the position of the darkness!
         
         We being lights shining in the darkness of the world is exactly what it means. THE WORLD. Meaning this wrold of sin and darkness. You are the one who added yourself into that meaning not I!
         Walking through the darkness is what we do as believers, believing the world is full of sin which causes it to be dark, as in the opposite of Christ who is light! You get it now?
         
         But I love how you twist it to conclude that I am being arrogant or insulting while trying an attempt to justify those that calls us Ignorant, stupid, dumb, unintelligent, irrational, fruitcakes, some words I cannot even write on here, etc. because of our beliefs.
         
         Now I also love how you twist our own beliefs around to make it something it is not!
         
         The Bible which YOU do not believe in anyway tells us that we walk in the spirit, that when we speak in that spirit, through His Word, they are not our words but HIS!!!!!!! Did we write the BIBLE??? NO!!! GOD DID! Man I am getting so irritated with having to explain myself to ...
         
         You know what?
         
         God will deal with it.
         
         I am so very sorry you have felt the need to take everything I wrote completely out of context as you do with Gods Word so why then would I be so surprised that if you could do that with something so perfect, why not do it with mine which lacks that perfection.
         
         Bless those that curse you...
         
         God Bless you

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      rhamsonposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      I do not understand why you feel that you are hated for your beliefs.  If you are secure in your belief and you truly live a life acceptable to Christ, how could you not feel good about yourself for your commitment?
      
      The age old problem of grouping yourself with others is to fulfill a human need to be accepted. Whether it be for your beliefs or your deeds.  Most Christians hide in scripture to express their opinions and expect others to go right along with the written word of the Bible.  I don't know how many Christians have started or proofed a statement with the Bible.  To establish common ground you have to find the common denominator. Not all Christians believe the Bible is to be taken literally and by ramming your understanding of the Bible into a conversation to prove your point you add no credibility.
      I would suggest you apply your Christian love and forgiveness when establishing a point or perspective in a conversation and try to relate rather than preach.  This will open more doors and perhaps take away that hatred you feel from others about your beliefs.  Remember Christ said "I come for the sinner not the saint".

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         atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         I don't "feel" that I am hated for my beliefs. I know I am hated for them, big difference there. And really its ok that I am. Being confident in my belief that God is in control and understanding that this time of persecution and hatred is only temporary. It is our steadfast patience, God's patience that causes us to endure it and sacrifice ourselves to it.
         
         I do not say EVERYONE hates because of our beliefs. I have many friends who are not believers and they do not hate me. That is just one example. I was taken out of context yet again in that.
         
         Not all unbelievers hate. Some if not most are very understanding and loving people. Christianity, religious people, do not corner the market on either of those things. People are capable of being both understanding and loving apart from their beliefs or lack of belief in God.
         God created us with that love inside and it was Adam who chose the greater understanding as oppose to life eternal with God in the garden.
         (There were two trees)
         
         So we have then the knowledge to do both good and evil. Some however would choose evil over the good. To hate as opposed to love. And thus we have what we have in here.

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            rednckwmnposted 15 years agoin reply to this

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               atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

               The Lord tells of us being hated and again, this is not in a singular definition. As hate comes in all forms.
               But the Bible is clear on us being hated for His names sake.
               
               And actually, there were two trees in the garden, one was the tree of life, God points this out in Revelation.
               The other the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
               Adam chose to eat as did eve from the one of knowledge.
               They chose then to have knowledge of both good and evil over living eternally with God.
               
               That is why God said if you eat from this tree, you will surely die.

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                  rednckwmnposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                  well, yeah, scripture clearly states "you will be hated for my sake", as well as the whole..loss of natural love..and stuff.. if you knew that, why did you even start the thread?
                  
                  about the tree..thank you for clarifying about the number. I am sorry I wasn't more clear. I am aware that there were far more then 2 trees, as we have more then  just apple trees today? yes? they didnt ALL evolve...
                  I meant, what do you mean about Adam being created with that love
                  what love are you refering to?
                  and..he choose the GREATER knowledge above life..
                  again, I am aware of how confrontational this sounds, feel free to email me if you dont want to discuss this in public.
                  I swear, its a real queston. I just dont know.

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      chukra Gposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      no one hate you as a human, your attachement and the way you express it to the surrounding makes them hate you. you dont attach to god, you just attached to the religion in your word faith. god is more than your faith my friend

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      mealdatesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Do some people think that they do not need to apologise for anything?

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   Eaglekiwiposted 15 years ago

   Just one
   Your post is far too long.

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      atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Your opinion I respect that so please respect mine

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         Eaglekiwiposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         I have shown no disrespect?
         You asked , I gave

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   Davinagirl3posted 15 years ago

   I know a lot of ardent believers who are truly testiments to their faith.  No one hates you because you are a believer.  Everyone believes something, and you are no better than anyone else.  As far as we're concerned, you are a caricature.  None of us know you.  It is very arrogant of you to assume that believers are hated because of what they believe.

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      nicompposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      No, she's hated for what she believes. If she were to post long detailed explanations of anything else save her faith no one would peep.
      
      She's brave enough to go to the wall for her faith and some people just can't deal, so they hate on the writer. Happens all the time around here.

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         Davinagirl3posted 15 years agoin reply to this

         She angers people because it is her intent to do so.  I don't think anyone hates her because she is a "Christian".  No one here knows her personally.  Hate is a strong word, and it would be silly to say that anyone hates her.  She manages to anger a lot of people, and I am not naive enough to believe it is not on purpose.  I don't hate her.  I don't know her.  I certainly wouldn't hate her because of her faith.  Faith is a beautiful thing as far as I am concerned.  Faith and hope makes the world a liveable place.

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            nicompposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            No one knows her personally but you know that her intent is to anger people?

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               Davinagirl3posted 15 years agoin reply to this

               If she doesn't mean to anger people, I apologize.  She is just really unlucky.  She just accidentally angers people.

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                  nicompposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                  I don't know her either and my opinion is that she expresses an opinion that touches a nerve with some people. I don't think her intent is to anger anyone.

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               Eaglekiwiposted 15 years agoin reply to this

               She professes to know Gods will for everyone??? Reminds me of someone else..
               
               And her pride and arrogance has blinded her supposed standing in Christ ,nah I dont buy it, not for one moment.
               Deceptive and derisive.

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                  nicompposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                  We both have the same set of facts and I disagree.

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                     Eaglekiwiposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                     How bout that huh

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      Jewelsposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      I so agree with this.  There is preconceived answer that is already placed in the body of the post.  Yet the poster has not really answered his/her own question honestly.  The poster has in fact only quoted from scriptures.  I find this disturbing.  But that's my opinion.  And furthermore IMO I'm thinking the wolf could be the one at the pulpit.
      
      To be a testament to ones faith or beliefs is to not have to wear any cloak.

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      dutchman1951posted 15 years agoin reply to this

      I agree with Davina also.
      
      Jon in nashville

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   DennisBarkerposted 15 years ago

   sharing what you know with the world is one thing, ramming it down peoples throats at every possible opportunity is something else.
   I find the evangelical and pentecostal versions of chrisitaninty to be more akin to network marketing than anything else.
   
   I'm not a fan of network marketing either, and I tend to avoid people who look at me as somebody to be saved. If god exists and he/she gave me free will, then it is only reasonable that I can express that will by rejecting a christian version of reality if I choose to do so.
   
   How can I be condemned for using something given to me by an unseen force / genetics /social conditioning in a way that is positive for myself?
   
   I do my best to be accepting and generous to everyone but the people who condemn me or try to save me get less time than criminals and drug addicts in my book.

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      Eaglekiwiposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Good examples Dennis
      I have 3 adorable sons and they know about Christ and are exploring other alternatives now too, I still love them the say way and we have some great conversations.
      Sometimes we agree,sometimes we dont , but the greatest thing to me is they exist! and truly life is the best gift ( the alternative has no negotiating clause) lol

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      atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Ok granted.
      But let me ask you this,
      How can I or anyone for that matter ram anything down anyones throat when they are on a forum in the Christianity thread at their own choosing? When they read as they are choosing to do so.
      That is much like someone taking their fist and punching themselves in the face and saying it hurts when they do that. LOL
      
      If you do not like what is said it is very simple, do not read or do not come into a religion forum, as it was before, or a christian forum as it is now expecting not to see it!
      
      Very simple there I think, don't you?

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         Davinagirl3posted 15 years agoin reply to this

         So you are saying that we should not come to the religious forums if we don't want to experience the equivalent of a "punch in the face".

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            beth811posted 15 years agoin reply to this

            There's a saying that you cannot please everybody even though how much good you do unto him/her. Time will come that the people who hated you will become your friends. Just wait for that time when he asks for forgiveness for the things he had done unto you.And I know that as a believer, you will readily forgive him. Or, you can just choose to ignore those people who hated you and pray for them. Give your small burden to a greater God.

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         R.G. San Ramonposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         So illogical. The thing is, one goes to a forum wishing to know more about what was being asked from fellow hubbers, one could get rammed, one may post a reply, and then one may leave. You confuse the chicken from the egg.

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         Emerald Moss 31posted 15 years agoin reply to this

         This is true, why did they bother taking the time to reply to your post in such a manner, and so many times, when they chose to read your forum post.  Justifies the reason you thought it was important to post the question in the first place.  But I digress.  The reason I think people are so hateful is that:  The Mortal Powers That Be are so abusive, aloof, and untrustworthy( and this includes Organized Religion), that the idea of an All-Knowing, All-Seeing Power totally frightens them.  Even if you try to explain that God and Angels do this to help them be less abused, it doesn't seem to seep through the protective walls they have built to the Heart.  All we can do is to recognise this and thru compassion realize it is not personal, and try another approach from another angle, after all they say actions speak louder than words.  Thank-you for your question.  Some people actually like to think rather than react out of selfishness and protectiveness.

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      Marisa Wrightposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      There's your answer.  I know and respect many believers, and I respect them because they respect me.  Far too many believers on these forums are contemptuous, patronising or derogatory to others.  You get what you give.
      
      If you want to preach, write Hubs.  Forum threads are a place for DEBATES, which means that if you post here, you must be willing to analyse and discuss your statements with other people of opposing views.

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         Davinagirl3posted 15 years agoin reply to this

         Well stated, Marisa.  I totally agree.

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         nicompposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         It's all too easy to go through life giving what you get. Using the behavior of another to justify your behavior won't get you very far.

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      Margie01posted 15 years agoin reply to this

      In all aspects of life there are rules that are for our guidance and protection; what you do with those rules are up to you.
      
      Once you make a choice you then reap the benefits or suffer the consequences and so it is with God.  He gave us the rules to follow that will provide us with a good life; but because we have free will he leaves the ultimate decision up to you.
      
      I was raised in a christian home, then grew and made my own choices...the outcome was nothing to brag about.  I just recently have found my way back to God and life is wonderful.
      
      So you are right; you have that freedom...and like they say "work smarter; not harder"!  Wishing you the best and always remember he is there for you.

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   Eaglekiwiposted 15 years ago

   I agree with Davina.
   
   If I was born in a garage that would not make me a car.
   I dont know who is and who isnt a believer based on what they type, but I do have some idea by their actions or outcomes

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      Davinagirl3posted 15 years agoin reply to this

      I love you, Eaglekiwi.  You have such a way of bringing images to life.  AW knows there is malice in her posts.  I just wish she would admit it to herself instead of hiding behind bible verses and, in essence, blaming God for her actions.

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         Eaglekiwiposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         Love ya back girl!
         Atomswife is representing (IMO) a God that shows no mercy ,no love and no justice. I believe that to be a misrepresentation is all.

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      mealdatesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      As a Christian, I believe that we did not evolve but were created as humans.
      I try to give encouragement.

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   Len Cannonposted 15 years ago

   Majority martyr complexes, primarily.

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      Eaglekiwiposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Good point.

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   Susana Sposted 15 years ago

   Well said (or written) Dennis
   
   I don't think believers per se are hated - it's what some believers choose to do that's disliked. In particlar the preaching to try to convert others which in essence is disrespectful, arrogant and judgemental. You talked about pride in your post and i think there's too much of that in what north americans call christianity - what about humility or humbleness? They're much wiser and loving qualities to pursue.
   
   I'd rather be taught by someone who has a wide background of knowledge and is a thinking, questioning person. Someone who has deep knowledge of other religions, science, philospohy, psychology, history etc. And who delivers what they believe in a way that truly respects me as an individual, whether i agree or not.

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      atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Ok, And then you would agree that christians/believers deserve that same respect then?
      I mean ok its like this,
      I quote scripture that steps on toes. It is that scripture that steps on those toes.
      My delivery of it was simply to post it.
      
      How one perceives that scripture or those scriptures then is either under the presumption that it implicates them or not.
      
      So how then am I perceived to be delivering the message in an insulting or critical way?
      Do I cite who specifically it is that the scriptures are talking about? No.
      I don't even call one a sinner as I call all sinners including myself!
      I also cite the way to salvation from that sin. So again, is that insulting or rude?
      
      How can it be? As it is what I believe to be truth and perhaps not what someone else would, is only a matter of opinion then right?
      So again, where is the insulting or judgemental cause there?
      
      One like myself being bold with Gods Word and stating it in the forums is just doing what comes very naturally to us as Christian Believers. We are instructed to answer with Gods Word. To be full of it.
      This is all that we are. It is in love that we share. Believing that there is but one way to salvation and not wanting for any one single person to suffer the consequences God lays out in His word. We believe we are saved and since we love as God does love, we want to share our faith.
      
      It is simple I think to understand that point of view isn't it?

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         Susana Sposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         I believe all people deserve respect but it's very challenging to be respectful to people who can't stand on their own feet and use their own minds but must use a book to try and justify everything they say to try to save others. Going back to what i said previously - trying to convert or save is ultimately disrespecful, arrogant and judgemental. When one approaches another with that mindset there can only be rebuttal. Gentleness and kindness go a lot further.
         
         Not all christians feel it is necessary to be "bold with god's words". Most christians in europe for instance don't feel the need to "instruct" others and it works pretty well. It is only certain branches that have gone on to make up their own brands of christianity and have distorted the bible's teachings in such ugly ways. I would have thought christians would have learnt their lessons of how damaging trying to force religion is from the spanish inquisition.
         
         It's simple to understand the point of view, but in my opinion its a flawed view. God is and should be a personal thing - it's not for anyone else to tell another what they should or should not believe.

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         R.G. San Ramonposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         You know, if you would conduct a survey and ask everyone here what they think of what you've been posting, you could get a statistically significant result that you are using the scriptures to implicate something on someone here.

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   Eaglekiwiposted 15 years ago

   Thank God youre not sitting on the throne Atoms!

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      atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Eaglekiwi, I challenge you to refute and or rebuke me with Gods Word. As it is the authority here!

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         Pearldiverposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         In defence of Kiwis.. Who surprisingly have alot of experience with God's Word (as you probably are unaware that NZ is referred to as GodsOwn)........ I'm not that sure that your 'Authority' would be sufficiently qualified to 'Challenge' anyone else with your own argument.

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            Eaglekiwiposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            Zena is so proud of you
            
            but alas mu human tummy is demanding to be fed ,later gators

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   DennisBarkerposted 15 years ago

   Ok, I'm here to post something useful to a thread.
   My comments were as a result of my interactions with chrisians generally, not hubpages specific so the sub forum which contains the thread isn't relevant, its just something to use to deflect from my main point, which is that evangelical christianity is in essence a form of network marketing.
   
   In this case the product is eternal life in heaven at the right hand of the christian version of god, it could just as easily be aloe vera, or noni juice.

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      Eaglekiwiposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Now theres a thought could be ,but im willingto take the bet its not.
      Dennis dont let anyone bully you as to how you express your thoughts or the correct process.
      
      Personally I will get off topic when and however often I want, cuz Im not perfect ya see

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      Amanda Severnposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Sometimes opinions are sought, but not actually welcomed, and this might be one of those occassions! i used to look at the religious hubs and forums a lot, but I soon learned that a lot of the Evangelical Christians on here have absolutely no interest in what others have to say, or at least, that's how it appears.

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    Pearldiverposted 15 years ago

    Or an Album on the monotonious Mating Calls of the Bull Moose!
    
    You are quite correct Dennis... well done

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    DennisBarkerposted 15 years ago

    If you call everyone a sinner, then that by definition includes me, and it is not a role I intend to take up the opportunity of experiencing.
    
    I was brought up chrisitian and had a good amount of faith as a child, until my grandfather  died when I was twelve and I started to see that the christian version of eternal life didn't answer my questions.
    
    I've always respected people of faith provided the respect my choice (which at the moment is a combination of buddhism, reiki, pagan festival celebration, christian festival celebration where the dates coincide with the older pagan festivals and I have a church handy)
    
    Freedom to choose and use my own mind is the greatest gift any god could give me (including the christian version)

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    Eaglekiwiposted 15 years ago

    Have rebuked you with a reminder of the Greatest Commandment ( you know the love thing),Jesus said it ,not me ,the fact that you chose to ignore is , your choice.

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       atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       So as I posted in response to you on that thread
       Are we to love sin?
       no?
       Then are we to love the unbeliever?
       And how do we show the greatest example of that love?
       In our testimony, our faith.
       
       Faith comes from hearing and hearing by the Word of God

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          Eaglekiwiposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          You purposely are trying to confuse Atoms
          God is not the author of confusion
          Satan is.
          
          Yes you are to love the unbeliever ,unconditionlly actually.

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             atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

             satan is not the author of Gods Word Eagle!
             God is very clear about how we are to spread the gospel to everyone!!!
             We are not to hide behind unbelievers nor side with them against other believers!
             
             We are to love yes, and it is a show of great love that we share Gods word!
             
             To love unconditionally is to expect nothing in return for that love.
             Am I expecting anything in return for sharing Gods Word?
             no. I am not.
             I share out of love and not expecting anything in return for it.
             
             Do you think honestly, in sharing Gods word with people I am not sharing the truth?
             Do you believe ALL of Gods Word, ALL of His commandments?
             Whats the first one?
             To acknowledge the Lord your God!
             This is a commnadment, a command by God. A law of His.
             Are we not to share it? Isn't that exactly what Jesus did?
             
             You state well Jesus said to love one another...
             As well he did!
             And how did he demonstrate that love?
             By going and preaching and ministering the gospel! as He instructed ALL of us to do!
             How did he then demonstrate the greatest act of love?
             By giving His life for all who are sinners, all of us who are guilty of sin!
             Are we then as believers when it is called upon us to respond to sit back or hide in shame of that? Are we to not share that message with everyone?
             
             So I guess you would rather we didn't. Fine. You sit back and not do that, have your fellowships with nonbelievers while not ministering the gospel to them then.
             
             Jesus NEVER did that by the way, but you go ahead

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                lrohnerposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                Jesus also knew when to keep quiet. And when confronted with a 'nonbeliever' who did not want to convert, he forgave them instead of incessantly banging them over the head and preaching to them ad nauseum.
                
                And the next time you tell my friend EagleKiwi to "have her fellowships with nonbelievers" in a disparaging and condescending manner, know that you are talking about me and a lot of other Hubbers here, and I, for one, will consider that a very personal attack.

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                   Eaglekiwiposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                   Love in action g/f thankyou

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                   Jane@CMposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                   And we have a winner!   Well said.

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                Eaglekiwiposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                No my point was, as you seemed to avoid it is
                Satan is the author of confusion ,which you keep trying to do.
                
                Dont concern yourself with 'my unbelieving friends' be only concerned with your actions

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                   Davinagirl3posted 15 years agoin reply to this

                   BadCo is right.  This person could never get this kind of attention without baiting people.

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                      Eaglekiwiposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                      True ,quite demonic in its nature too.

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    Eaglekiwiposted 15 years ago

    Amen Dennis
    
    
    Atomswife I met your challenge and as long as Im here I will continue too

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    Sanctus Vesaniaposted 15 years ago

    This depends.  Mainstream Christians are hated, because the love they show is very conditional.  I have known mainstream Christians who scream, holler, curse, and condemn people for the stupidest things.  (I have had at least two people tell me that I'm going to go to Hell because I don't want children.) but, they are the same people who will sin, then bawww to the congregation asking for forgiveness.  Then they do it again.
    
    Then there's people like myself who are hated, because we're not afraid to tell people (mainly the mainstream Christians) when they're wrong, and when they're either being ravening wolves, or the sheep following these wolves.

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    DennisBarkerposted 15 years ago

    anther thing that just occoured to me.
    
    why ask your question in a christian forum?
    Wouldn't it be more representative to ask the question in a general forum containing all faiths and none, if you are genuinely interested in the feedback which the question gives  you then I respect your right to ask it.
    
    Asking awkward questions and learning from feedback is a skill, and a very useful one at that.

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    Eaglekiwiposted 15 years ago

    I quote scripture that steps on toes. It is that scripture that steps on those toes.
    My delivery of it was simply to post it.
    
    
    Guns are ok too , but would a hunter carry one irresponsibly just 'anywhere'
    
    
    Thing is I could quote scripture that might step on your toes ,as you put it ,but would I ?
    
    No

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    Red Anchorposted 15 years ago

    I pity believers and I am bewildered by believers, which probably does come across as hate at times, though I never intend it to.
    
    This is just speculation, but in general, believers are probably "hated" because on average a believer is less intelligent and more inflexible than the average human being.  They possess some of the traits that more intelligent individuals find most repugnant:  sheepish behavior, blind allegiance, illogical reasoning, intolerance, self-delusion, and as has been mentioned about the preacher-believers already, they are just plain noisy.
    
    My personal view on it:  individual spirituality is great if that's what is important to you.  Beyond that, live and let live.  Where I do come to hate believers is when they attempt to forcibly change how I live my life, or forcibly prevent me from living my life the way I want to.  As long as I am not perpetrating a force or fraud against another human being, it is none of your darned business.

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       A Texanposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       This sounds less like a Christian and more like an Obama worshiper!

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18. 61

    DennisBarkerposted 15 years ago

    The greatest way to show love , in my book at least, is to listen to somebody else and offer safe space for questioning / understanding and growth through experience.
    
    If I assumed I have all the answers and by shouting those answers at somebody I was loving them, I would expect to be hated because this is not love.

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       Eaglekiwiposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       You got it my friend

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       atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       I agree Dennis
       
       You see, what most here are failing to understand is that I actually have only posted on threads as they relate to my beliefs. I do not go in search of an atheist discussion for example and butt in with my beliefs or contradictions.
       
       I have not insulted anyone.
       I have stated Gods Word many many times in response to people as well as offered my own opinion to things.
       I have engaged for example in a lengthy, rather healthy debate with Fairbear for example. Does he share my beliefs? No. And yet we found some common ground and appreciated the exchanges we made to eachother.
       
       What I have been accused of I am not guilty of in other words. Most started this out of a conversation earlier today where my name was brought up in a thread.
       
       I challenged back as I wanted an explaination and got all of this from it!
       
       I realize that I dnot have all the answers. I have stated that many many times, thats WHY I go to Gods Word for that!
       And what is so wrong with doing that when we discuss Gods Word to being with.
       
       Thread Topics I have posted in:
       "Christians: People don't send themselves to hell, God does!"
       Does that sound to you like a topic directed at one like myself who is a Christian?
       Yes. But then when I quote scripture and offer my perspective I am then accused of provoking or not being loving etc. Which to me is just ridiculous!
       
       Next thread
       "besides fear why be a christian"
       Again, if you are not a believer do you think this question would be directed at you or the contrary, a believer, a christian?
       
       Another:
       "~*~OH COME ON NOW! With GOD..."ALL THINGS" are possible? who told you?"
       
       But again, when I respond to them I get slammed for doing so. Told I was spreading my religious garbage etc.
       
       Really did boggle my mind,.. until that is, I read the scriptures concerning this very thing.
       How hatred, malice etc towards us comes from those who hate us for what We believe. They too hate the message. They do not like for Gods Word to "cut" as it does sometimes.

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    Mishaposted 15 years ago

    What goes around, comes around. you hate the World, and it happily hates you in return

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       R.G. San Ramonposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Ahaha! This is funny!

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    Eaglekiwiposted 15 years ago

    I dont hate ,though I can get pretty mad

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    AEvansposted 15 years ago

    I am a believer and causing a debate during the last few days is beginning to upset everyone. There is nothing wrong with debating religion however I as a Christian do not push my beliefs on others I guide and teach not shove and push. There are so many religions with respect can you try to have an open mind and embrace that is what Jesus would do.

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       Eaglekiwiposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Amen

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    DennisBarkerposted 15 years ago

    If you are offering "Gods Word" as you put it, as one version of reality or a starting point for discussion then I don't have any issues with that.
    
    I wasn't referring to your posts specifically, just trying to put together a framework for learning which, if we can agree on it , might be worth doing?
    
    Using scripture as a point for discussion is pretty healthy sometimes, but it is also possible to use the lord of the rings, or a tarot reading as the starting point, the point is that the jurney is the real point. What is used as the starting point and what is defined as the end point of the journey is entirely personal, but we are all on a human journey to learn and experience and gain understanding / wisdom and compassion.
    
    The context for that can be christianity, buddhism, atheism, science, humanism, islam, or any combination or cultural reference we choose as individuals.

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       atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       True.

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23. 74

    Eaglekiwiposted 15 years ago

    It is arrogant to think that a certain group are saved and therefore now qualified to preach...
    
    Your only assignment or commandment was to first ..Love
    
    So how bout get that part right ,then maybe ears might listen to you ,but from where I sit you have offended people by your manner and now its irritating like smoke in my eyes.

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    DennisBarkerposted 15 years ago

    Atoms, I've just got my mobile broadband access back so i don't think we have met each other yet.
    
    Pearl, I remeber seeing your posts occasionally over the last couple of months, now that I'm back online properly and regularly again we might be able to have a reasonable and empowering discussion now and again, each from our own perspective.
    
    Good to meet you both anyway.

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25. 74

    Eaglekiwiposted 15 years ago

    These are the love actions that mean more than empty words ( doesnt it say , if I have the wisdom of many angels ,yet not love fo9r my brother ,what good is that ??) Atomswife.
    Loyalty and respect.
    We have different opinions and dont get in each others face!!
    
    Nobody appointed you Christ on earth or Christ on the internet!
    
    Some people are so heavenly minded they are of no earthly use, and I am inclined to think you have little compassion or humilty for too many, thats sad to me.

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26. 61

    Daniel Carterposted 15 years ago

    I operate on the principle of
    "What you think of me is none of my business."
    
    I don't care if someone hates me. After all the loss, false accusations, tragedy and so forth, in my life, I don't have enough time in my life to worry about who hates me and who doesn't.
    
    It's just irrelevent. Time for me to grow up and be a big boy and not worry what others are up to. They can hate, and if it's a constant barage (at times it has been) it can wear me down, but the more I refuse to care if others hate me or not, the freer I am to live my life the way I feel I'm supposed to.
    
    See if those shoes fit. I like their fit rather nicely.
    

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    DennisBarkerposted 15 years ago

    I have a friend and drinking buddy who is also a satanist, he quotes long passages of the old testament for very different reasons to the ones christians quote. The discussions we have are knowledgable and open minded. I'm never likely to describe myself as a satanist and he is pretty much wedded to the definition.
    
    As I said, the journey is the key thing, cultural and religious reference points are the language we are using to understand ourselves.

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28. 0

    cosetteposted 15 years ago

    well if anyone actually HATES anyone else on these forums, they need to get their head examined.
    
    in real life, though, that would be different, because then your life might be in danger. i have people in my life who are jealous of me, but i don't apologize for what i have or what i have accomplished because if they knew what it took to get where i am they would be all 'wow, that's pretty cool, actually'. so i just smile at them as Lazarus Long instructed in his notebook - "When the fox gnaws - smile" and keep them at arm's length as much as possible.
    
    anyway, i don't have any haters in my real life but if i did i would probably make sure my doors were locked and that i carried a gun or something.

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    Maddie Ruudposted 15 years ago

    I think the way you phrase this question says a lot.  You seem to approach things from an "us vs them" mentality, and then are surprised when other people respond in kind.

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       Daniel Carterposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       @ Maddie,
       Please apply for diplomacy positions across the globe.
       Seriously.
       Rock on, girl.
       
       @ cosette,
       A gun! Oh hell no! How could someone as charming as you ever have an enemy??
       You have lots of friends. Just stick with us.

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30. 0

    cosetteposted 15 years ago

    haha Daniel. i'm just being dramatic for effect, because hate is such a strong word...

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       Daniel Carterposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       I know, but I had to be dramatic in return.
       LOL

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31. 0

    cosetteposted 15 years ago

    hey do you twitter? if not, that's cool.

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       Daniel Carterposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       I do!!! But not very often.
       username is danieltunes.
       
       I assume you do??

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          cosetteposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          nah i just wanted your twitter name
          
          just kidding. i sent you a msg.

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32. 61

    Ty Bposted 15 years ago

    People don't like being told their 'beliefs' are wrong, so-called believers have a tendancy to do that.

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33. 61

    Lisa HWposted 15 years ago

    I can't speak for everyone, but I think I speak for a lot of people when I say people don't hate believers for believing.  What irks a lot of people is that when they to have a conversation with some believers they don't get back the other person's own, personal, version of what they believe.  They get back Bible verse after Bible verse instead of something in the person's own words.  Nobody expects someone (a Christian, for example) to separate what he accepts as his beliefs from the Bible; but human beings naturally like to relate to other human beings on a more personal level.  To me, if someone who believes something from the Bible simply expressed that belief in his own words - and not as echoing from what Jesus was said to have said - it would seem more like genuine communication between two people. 
    
    One person's "following" is another person's "not thinking for yourself".  I don't think people care if you "follow", and I don't think they disrespect because you do.  What I think they find offensive is that if they try to communicate with you as a human being they don't get back something you thought up to say for yourself.
    
    Many people know right from wrong based on something other than what Jesus said.  The person who knows that hitting someone else is wrong understands that it's just mean and rotten to hit someone and hurt them.  To people who have "figured this out on their own" it can be hard to imagine why someone else just thinks its wrong because Jesus said it was wrong; or if that other person also sees that it's wrong on his own, then why bring up that Jesus said it was wrong too?  This may not apply to everyone, but people are generally friendly and want to genuinely communicate with one another. 
    
    I can understand that "Jesus followers" are told to pass the word; but I would think that passing the word on something like "hurting people is wrong" is still passing Jesus' message, even if that's a message you've adopted.  When communicating with people who don't happen to share you religion, why not talk about things like "hurting people is wrong" and "here's why".  What better way to both pass Jesus' message while also demonstrating that you understand the reasoning behind what Jesus hoped to teach people?  What puts people off with that echoing and copying of Bible verses is that feeling that you aren't really genuinely relating, or even passing on a message that is truly meaningful to you.   If you try to have a discussion with me, and if I were to, say, copy and paste a page worth of a speech by - who - Hillary Clinton in response; you're going to think I'm pretty much absent from the communication and that I've just "flung you some answer" that's already been thought up by someone else.  (If people want to know what the Bible says they'll read the Bible.  People who hope to have a discussion with someone, personally, often find it offputting to get the xerox copy of some Bible verse.

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    Don Wposted 15 years ago

    I'll contribute to the pantomime. Some salient points:
    
    1) There are many methods of communicating Christianity or anything else.
    2) People who enter the Christianity forum are of diverse backgrounds and beliefs.
    3) The diversity in backgrounds and beliefs result in different expectations as to what is a useful way of communicating and what is not.
    4) Some who enter the Christianity forum do not accept the "ram-down-your-throat" method of communication as a useful method of communicating Christianity (or anything else).
    5) Some people attempt to point out to the communicator that regardless of what they think of the message, the method being used to communicate it is not useful or indeed is counter-productive.
    6) Entering the Christian forum and commenting on a thread is not equal to acceptance of the method of communication used in that thread.
    7) The above is especially true when the comment made is to inform the communicator that the method they are using is not helpful or is counter-productive.
    8) Based on the above points, complaining about the method used to communicate on some threads in the Christianity forum is not like someone "taking their fist and punching themselves in the face and saying it hurts when they do that". It's more like being punched in the face, then after you protest being told you agreed to being punched because you were standing there.
    
    Disclaimer: My choice to comment on this thread should in no way be taken as consent or acceptance of the ram-down-your-throat™ method of communication.
    Comment != consent.

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35. 89

    Bibowenposted 15 years ago

    Why are Christians hated? I am content with Jesus' answer to this question...
    
    "And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake" (Matthew 10:22)
    "...ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake" (Matthew 24:9)
    "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before [it hated] you." (John 15:18)
    "...yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service." (John 16:2)
    "I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world." (John 17:14)
    
    And these are only Jesus' comments. This same refrain is also expressed by the apostles. There might be some psychological model you could provide on the reasons for the hostility, but I think the ultimate answer is spiritual: they hate you because they hate God.
    
    You can't continue to feed someone who is gagging on what you are trying to feed them. For some people, they have heard about Jesus all their life and they're sick of it. You can be kind but they will blow up if you start talking about the Bible or Jesus. There is no rational reason for their response. They're overreating, but you're not likely to change them. They are so convinced of your intolerance, all the while they are screaming at you about being intolerant.
    
    However, just because they don't want the gospel does not mean that others do not. We continually hear of people who hear the gospel message, recieve it, and thank the people who gave it to them. Throughout my life, I have heard this refrain repeatedly: "At first, I did not like what you were saying, but I am glad you did not give up on me. Thank you for caring enough." It is for those people, those who receive the Word of Grace with gladness and thankfulness, that we labor for.
    
    I just read an article where doctors in the British NHS are being reprimanded because they are giving their patients a "sugar-coated" diagnosis because they want don't want to give them news that they will react negatively to. Case in point: doctors who do not tell patients all of their treatment options because some of those treatments the NHS will not pay for.
    
    As Christians we can't operate that way. We can't sugarcoat the message because we fear the response of the hearer. When it comes to the gospel, the bad news comes before the good news. Those that dwell on the bad news will probably be hostile to you. So be it.

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36. 60

    Randy Godwinposted 15 years ago

    No hate, incredulity perhaps, but not hate.  How can one hate and pity at the same time?

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37. 77

    Uninvited Writerposted 15 years ago

    I doubt anyone here hates anyone. As was said earlier, if you do there is something wrong with you.

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38. 81

    RooBeeposted 15 years ago

    Very antagonistic phrasing you chose!
    To be honest, I have no feelings toward you one way or the other.
    I never read your posts because they are so ridiculously long that my eyes cross when I do try to muck my way through them.
    That is no reflection of you as a person (read: I'm not taking your bait).
    Are you trying to get someone to say something nasty to you so that you can report them for doing so?
    Quite the instigator, you!

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39. 59

    Ron Montgomeryposted 15 years ago

    Because you're so perfect?

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40. 47

    PirateGirlposted 15 years ago

    I always ask why these religious threads are never closed to reply because from where I am its similar to the one you closed on me Maddie. Is there a difference for the Religious Hubbers ?

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41. 47

    PirateGirlposted 15 years ago

    She angers people because you are easy prey and she is so loving the attention you give her. Ignore = No Attention = Shes Beat !

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       Uninvited Writerposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       I feel that way about some in the political forums too

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          PirateGirlposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          Lol its as bad, I give up the hubbers continue to feed the animal that is the Religious Forum.
          
          Ye know not what damage you do my children.
          
          BadCo Chapter 2, Verse 5.
          
          Amen

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       R.G. San Ramonposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       this goes for me as well. okay, i'm out. at least more time for me to do my hubs.

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42. 47

    PirateGirlposted 15 years ago

    I think I have a convert

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       Davinagirl3posted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Lead me into temptation, you sexy wench!

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          PirateGirlposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          Repeat after me, " For what I am about to receive "

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             I*n*v*i*c*t*u*sposted 15 years agoin reply to this

             The power of thoughts and intention is the purest path to divine essence!

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                BadCoposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                As in you wish

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                   I*n*v*i*c*t*u*sposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                   As in if you can visualize it - it can be attained!

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                      Davinagirl3posted 15 years agoin reply to this

                      This line of dialogue is actually, kind of, hot!

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                         Eaglekiwiposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                         least ya honest.
                         
                         I am hot too ,but its just a hot flash sighhhhh....Im everywoman

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                            I*n*v*i*c*t*u*sposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                            Love it!!

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                      BadCoposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                      You just summed up my lovelife online, cheers for that humiliation

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                         I*n*v*i*c*t*u*sposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                         Humiliation??? nahhh, just another online BELIEVER! 
                         ya see we all believe in some way, shape or form!

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43. 61

    GodsFinest1posted 15 years ago

    Greetings,
    
    People who are not in Christ or have no idea of what it is to be a believer are the "haters."  They have not come to the spiritually maturing of leading a Christ life and/or trying to make changes in their own.
    
    It comes with maturity that one makes a decision to follow the teachings of the Bible.
    
    I know since changing my life I have mustered through some hard times but I also suffered in the earthly realm too.  I know that I want to be in heaven with my grandparents one day so the world means nothing to me in the since of spirit vs flesh.
    
    Peace and Love
    
    GodsFinest1

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44. 72

    earnestshubposted 15 years ago

    I believe the hater is herself.

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45. 81

    RooBeeposted 15 years ago

    If I choose not to follow Christianity as dictated by the Bible, then I'm a 'hater'?
    
    Huh?
    
    I have no beef with believers, and as I stated before, have no animosity toward the OP.
    
    She very much posts incendiary topics and proselytizes at great length. Her tone is often condescending, and her posts are very, very long with verse after verse quoted from the bible.
    
    There is nothing inherently wrong with this, but to act shocked and dismayed that people react to her negatively is just silly.
    
    Nicomp, with all due respect, if her intent is not to upset people then it is perhaps inadvertent but now she is surely aware and will maybe try to treat others with a little less disdain. (Example: dividing the world in to two groups "believers" and "haters of believers.")
    
    It's juvenile, and its been repeated ad nauseum  in here. Yes, we get it. You preach, people respond, and then you get to preach and quote more and say "see, God said that us believers would be hated and persecuted." In reality, others are merely responding to your bait and attempting to engage in discussion about it.

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       Davinagirl3posted 15 years agoin reply to this

       RooBee, you gorgeous woman.  You are way too intelligent to be here.  Evidentally, what we are dealing with is a social misfit who angers people (quite unintentionally ), and can quote the bible.  Don't try to understand her, or to question her personal belief system.  She is an enigma.

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       nicompposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Strawman. No one said that or implied that.
       
       
       
       No one accused you specifically of anything. I was talking in general terms about hubbers who attacked her on a personal level. I mentioned no names.
       
       I agree that the topics are incendiary. They touch a nerve. Some people resort to hate speech when presented with these topics. No one said you were one of those people.
       
       Some people would agree with you. No doubt.
       
       Her faith and the teachings of her faith define those 2 camps of people. There is no middle ground. That's the mindset. She states it plainly and some people react strongly when they read it. Most people want to think they are 'good' even if they are not Christian, and it irks them when someone asserts differently.
       
       
       I don't buy the justification for 'responding to the bait'. No successful person in real life gets through their day by reacting in-kind to everything that happens to them. Of course, sometimes we lose our temper and overreact, but anyone who was raised in polite society understands that we don't have a built-in excuse for rude behavior simply because someone else was rude to us first.

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    Rhianni32posted 15 years ago

    Believers who are comfortable in THEIR belief are not hated.
    
    Believers who are uncomfortable about others' beliefs are hated.

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47. 0

    sneakorocksolidposted 15 years ago

    Because we're happy and they don't want our help or advice nomatter who told us to show them the way.

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48. 72

    earnestshubposted 15 years ago

    FairBear, you have clearly stated the psychology of the thread.
    I guarantee that your accurate summary will be blindly ignored by the OP, or denied with more bloody scripture. The truth of your summary is self evident.

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       sneakorocksolidposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Could she repeat that I didn't get it the first time. Sorry, I'm having a problem with my self evident!

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49. 72

    earnestshubposted 15 years ago

    And yet again, your arrogant self possessed egotistical self aggrandizement is in every post you make, and you still do not see it.

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       atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       God Bless you
       

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50. 61

    Jane@CMposted 15 years ago

    "Why are we as believers so hated"
    
    Are you telling the forum that all believers are hated, here???
    
    Last time I checked, no hates me.  Lets see, last time I checked, I "believed".  I like plenty of people here who are believers, non-believers - whatever - because I actually am trying to get to know the PERSON!
    
    I do believe if I walked around and talked like the OP to people, lets say in my neighborhood or while volunteering at school - I would not be very well liked.  I do believe if all I did in the forum was quote verse after verse, and never try to get to know anyone in a general lets have fun way - or talking about other topics besides religion, I probably wouldn't be liked much.

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    1. 56

       atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       We do not believe to get people to like us.
       
       
       LOL the lies in here stagger me!
       
       You know what? I have made friends on here, and do not just quote verse after verse of scripture, But if I did and people did not like me for it, too bad for them!
       
       
       But I get what you are saying then. It is the scriptures they don't like then?
       Ok. Like I said too bad for them!
       

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