More Good News :)

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   Mark Knowlesposted 16 years ago

   Madison, Wisconsin launched it's own bus campaign
   
   
   
   http://ffrf.org/news/2009/madison_buscampaign.php

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      countrywomenposted 16 years agoin reply to this

      To revisit ones own conviction requires lots of courage and not an easy task for everyone.

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         Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

         Not an easy task for anyone by the look of things Although - I am more than happy to revisit mine on a regular basis.

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            countrywomenposted 16 years agoin reply to this

            I am sure you do but even I myself have a tough time sometimes to revise my earlier views/beliefs.  Certainly "unlearning" sometimes is just as difficult as learning

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      Leta Sposted 16 years agoin reply to this

      Hmm.  I didn't know Clarence Darrow was an atheist.  He was a strongly humanistic lawyer, I know that..
      
      Madison, Wisconsin is a very progressive city.  Big university town and very tolerant of all kinds and beliefs. I'm from around that part of the country, so..

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      packerpackposted 16 years agoin reply to this

      This is completely my personal view.
      I completely agree with this. But here goes my version,
      
      "Believing in things that you don't understand and then forcing others to believe the same who in turn is believing in some other thing that he doesn't understand. And if the other don't start believing in the things that you don't understand, then kill him!...... This is faith!"

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         Andrew0208posted 16 years agoin reply to this

         You missed it. Believing is a choice. Without faith, it is impossible to please God. Do you need to understand water before ever drinking it? God is a Spirit. We need to understand the differences between the days of law and the days of grace. Does God(Spirit) need to show the certificate of existence to an atheist to prove His existence, emphatically No! This is simply the pride of the mind.

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            Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

            I prefer to think for myself rather than do as you preach. But yes, god does need to prove his existence. What? I should take your word for it after you accuse me of hatred because I do not share your beliefs? Please god? Your magical, invisible super being needs pleasing?  Now let's talk about pride of the mind...........
            
            You are as good an argument for atheism as there is.
            
            Thank you.

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               packerpackposted 16 years agoin reply to this

               I completely agree with Mark, yes he/she has to prove his/her existence. If you ask some believer "What is it that you believe in god?" and many times answer is, "I can feel him, his energy when I pray!". If god could be felt by believer then why can't I feel him? The explanation will be "Because you don't believe in him?", now this is illogical, how can I believe in something that I don't see or don't even feel about? So it means god can be felt or god will prove his existence to only those who believe in him blindly but the interesting thing to note is that believers don't really need those proof as they are already blind!

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                  Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                  That is a good point. I feel this that they speak of and call "god" but do not feel the need to give it a personality. Nor do I need to pray to be aware of it. It is not a personal god, it is merely a connection to that which is around us. Everything. No god. No personality. No rules. No need to kill others that do not believe. No need to argue that this is the TRUE belief. We all have this connection, whether we are aware of it or not. But it does not involve a magical, invisible super being that needs to be obeyed.

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            packerpackposted 16 years agoin reply to this

            I did not miss a single bit dude. I need to have faith to please god. I don't want to please god. And seriously speaking, tell me what did you understand about god by drinking water? I just don't understand why are all believers hell bent upon proving to non-believers about god? Have you ever come across anyone or any news that say that a non-believer killed someone who was believing on god? But definitely it does happen the other way.
            
            I believe in respecting others feelings and loving all and I am happy being like that because I am better then all those believers who in turn hate others who either don't believe in god or believe in other faith. If by believing in god makes you hate your fellow human being then it is better not to believe. And if god is so very powerful then why does he allow people killing each other in his name name itself?

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      Eric Graudinsposted 16 years agoin reply to this

      That's Nothing!!
      
      Mark Knowles has fallen on hard times since the collapse of the Luxury Property market, and has the following advertisement showing on 25 London Buses:
      
      http://ruletheweb.co.uk/b3ta/bus/?s1=MA … t+hubpages
      
      Just a warning that the lessons are not really free. Beware of his expensive back end offer.
      
      
      
      Eric G.

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         Teresa McGurkposted 16 years agoin reply to this

         funny

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         Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

         It is not that expensive guys.
         
         Glad I missed the earlier drama. Good to know it is not just me.
         
         @jgrimes -
         
         I cannot speak for other atheists, but free from the mind-crippling belief in a magical, invisible super being, I feel free to help myself to whichever philosophy/religion/lifestyle approach I choose.
         
         My personal developmental path has included Aikido, various "New age" approaches, and the Tarot. Plus I was raised church of England, so I am sure there has been some influence there.
         
         I used to have trouble not putting money on  a collection plate when one is handed to me for example. Now I feel free to help myself as it goes past.

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            Jewelsposted 16 years agoin reply to this

            ROFL.  Good one.

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            jgrimes331posted 16 years agoin reply to this

            Thanks Mark...  Is the Church of England as similar as they say it is to the Roman Catholic Church? 
            
            Do you have a favorite philosophical approach?  You are not the first person I have listen to say how "freeing" it feels to be released for the shackles of religion.  When did that flight for peace begin?  I understand if you'd rather not share.
            Julie

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               Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

               All churches are the same. They prey on ignorant people using fear as a tool to control them.
               
               Although there is the "High Church" which is basically the same as catholicism - lots of gold etc, but with divorces and women priests.
               
               The flight from church began when I asked myself the same question I ask myself every time I am offered a new piece of information.
               
               "Does that make sense?"
               
               I wouldn't say I have a favorite philosophical approach, although I am a big fan of "Do unto others as they do unto you ."
               
               Just kidding - Zen Buddhism and American Indian approaches appeal on many levels. Self reliance, harmony with your surroundings.

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                  jgrimes331posted 16 years agoin reply to this

                  On the do unto others...  LG attacked me first, I was only living to the law of the code!!
                  Seriously though that's how it went...  She questioned my values as a friend and as a mother.  She left no personal opinions with original ideas concerning the questions I was asking or to your original thread.  She came on, personally attacked me and I guess from what I am gathering- I should've turned the other cheek and let her.  You didn't let me.  Why do I have to let her?  Seriously Mark...  I could use your help here.  I am completely at a lost.  She attacked me personally on my practices at friendship and motherhood.  Nothing else.  I lashed right back, like you I'm sure would've.  But I am the one at fault?  I don't get it.  Help please....

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                     Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                     I wasn't making a reference to your spat with Pam or LG. Although, if everyone is saying you are the problem........
                     
                     Reminds me of an old joke amongst poker players. If you drifted off during the game and have to ask who's turn it is - it is probably your turn.

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                        jgrimes331posted 16 years agoin reply to this

                        Am I the problem?  In this case, how?  I just don't get it.  LG attacked me, in a very non-issue personal manner.  Why did I deserve that?   I am @ such a loss here, I welcome the critism that may help me understand why I should've accepted her attack with peace.
                        
                        Anyhow, thanks for your information.  I know and understand the history of the Church of England.  I know very little about the church, membership, or beliefs towards God or Christ.
                        
                        What was it like to free yourself?  Was it scary at first or overwhelming?

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                           Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                           Neither. It just is. Much like everything else. It just is. I never said you are the problem. But - it is a question you should ask yourself..... Not me.

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                              jgrimes331posted 16 years agoin reply to this

                              Oh I have Mark.  In this case, I stand firm.  I know that you weren't saying one way or another.  I was asking an "outsider" I trust to be fair and tell me the truth.   You seem to me like the man who is fair and very truthful.  How's that for brown-nosing?   Seriously again, thanks Mark.  I personally think that LG was outta line.  And PG and me, misunderstanding.   I never thought I was spatting with PG.  I thought PG misread my first attempt to resourceful answers.  Maybe not, only she or he knows for sure.  
                              
                              Peace and happiness...Julie

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   HotBabesNYCposted 16 years ago

   What a bizarre enterprise....I think these people just want to create controversy.

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      Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

      Or perhaps they are sick of having a non-existent deity shoved at them?

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         HotBabesNYCposted 16 years agoin reply to this

         People who are serious about introspection do not tend to give much weight to sound bytes on the side of buses.  People who serious about stirring up controversy, on the other hand, would tend to resort to such tactics.  I see no constructive purpose in these ads. 
         
         Rather than wasting money on offending people, it should be used to help people in need.

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            Jewelsposted 16 years agoin reply to this

            That's not totally true.  Introspection can be the very reason a person engages in this type of expression.  A person's truth and belief is a personal standpoint and can go against what has been taught or presented in a school or church setting.
            
            As Sandra pointed out, changing a belief can be very difficult, but for some it's necessary.

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            Sufidreamerposted 16 years agoin reply to this

            You sound very familiar - almost like we have already met.
            
            Must be a strange case of deja vu.

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               Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

               Otherwise known as a sock puppet

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                  Sufidreamerposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                  
                  
                  Never heard that term before
                  
                  I like the adverts, by the way - only insecure people will be offended by those!

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                     Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                     I learned it here when a bunch of new users arrived who used exactly the same style as some one who was here already and jumped into an argument.
                     
                     Quite right. Only people who do not really believe will be offended.
                     
                     Which includes the catholic church who had them banned in Italy.

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                        Sufidreamerposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                        Yup - people do not realise that everybody has a unique writing style that speaks volumes about their personality.
                        
                        The people who rant on about 'freedom of speech' the most tend to be the ones who try to restrict anything that does not agree with 'their' views.

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                           pgrundyposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                           I wrote a separation of Church and state hub awhile back. Out of 114 hubs I've written, it was one of only three or four that got hate mail. Some people don't want to separate Church and State here in the U.S. We have our own version of the Taliban here. I could see Sarah Palin heading it up in 2012. We have the potential for fascism, especially now with all this fear and trouble  brewing.

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                              Sufidreamerposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                              When people begin migrating to extremes, with no room for compromise, things go downhill rapidly. Religion and politics do not mix - it becomes another tool for highlighting our differences, instead of celebrating our similarities.

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                              jgrimes331posted 16 years agoin reply to this

                              Sarah Pallin???  I don't think so if you haven't heard the news... Alaskans are Starving!
                              
                              She just requested that Obama declare Alaska to be in a state of emerg.  Somehow she didn't anticipate Alaska's cold winter.
                              
                              I am curious to know if some Atheists believe in a philosophic lifestyle and follow with the practices, but none of the religious conciliations?

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                                 pgrundyposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                                 Yes, cold weather in Alaska is something no one could have seen coming.
                                 
                                 I'm not an atheist. I'm agnostic. There's a difference, though I know to people on both ends the difference seems subtle or even weasel-ish. I think it's an important difference though--anyway it is to me.
                                 
                                 An atheist believes God does not exist. A believer believes God does exist. An agnostic believes that the question of whether or not God exists is not a useful question because there is no way to know the answer. The word 'agnostic' literally means 'can't know.'
                                 
                                 I think it's clear that lots of terrible things have been done in the name of God, as many if not more than have been done in the name of science. If people had manners that would help, but here in America everyone thinks their opinion is the only one that doesn't stink, and religious fanatics are especially obnoxious. Americans in general aren't good at humility.
                                 
                                 All the practical problems we have that we actually COULD solve, but no, we'd rather blather on about God and the spirit and blah blah blah. I don't see the point in that. I see it as a failure of courage and imagination both, that we allow ourselves to be stuck in these foolish divisions.

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                                    jgrimes331posted 16 years agoin reply to this

                                    Yes I understand the difference completely.  But what I am wanting to know is are there any Atheist that practice the teachings of Buddhism, (just using as an example) but doesn't follow the spiritual code.  Many think that Taoism, Buddhism and many others are more of a lifestyle guide.  I think that way.  But I believe in the spiritual journey it can take you on...  There are two parts of many philosophical "world religions".  Christianity can be one too; but that religion is too hard for some too understand or practice without God.  I think anyone can be Christ-like or maintaining Dharma by being Buddha.  Do any Atheist's apply teachings from a philosophical based religion, to their daily living routine, even if they don't believe?  I don't believe the full letter of the law of the Islamic religion.  However, many of there 'customs' and cultural lifestyle come from a sound sense of living by the code of their law.  Here is a combination of three religious :Thou shalt not kill, mediate, look within your inner self daily, etc...  Understand?  I don't how else to pose the question I'd like answered.

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                                       Inspirepubposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                                       Absolutely, of course they do, millions of them.
                                       
                                       The "wisdom literature" on which all modern religions are based is also the basis of many secular personal development books, courses, and movements, as well as being embedded in the better martial arts programs, many 12-Step programs, and countless other programs (think about "The Artist's Way" by Julia Cameron, for example).
                                       
                                       In addition, many atheists study comparative religion, or specific religions like Buddhism and Taoism, in order to glean the philosophy and practices and use them in their daily lives without the trappings and cultural baggage of "joining up" to an organised religion.
                                       
                                       That's why there is now a category for "spiritual, non-religious" in many places which have drop-down menu choices for "Religion" - dating sites, nanny agencies, etc.
                                       
                                       Jenny

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                                          jgrimes331posted 16 years agoin reply to this

                                          Great information.  I really didn't know that's why I asked.  Thanks...

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                                             Jewelsposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                                             Jenny, it's good to finally here this.  That spiritual, non-religious is it's own category.

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                                       Jewelsposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                                       I personally know many atheists who are more "spiritual' in their day to day activities, the way they relate to people, their innate compassion, respect for people and tolerance.  I think the code is being a virtuous human being.

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                                          pgrundyposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                                          Jewels, don't you think that a certain lack of politeness is a big part of the problem here? It used to be that a person would never, ever question the religious beliefs of someone else, on the grounds that it is just rude to do so. People used to have manners. But in the U.S. we have lost so much respect for each other, we seem to have to probe these areas immediately and sort people accordingly--some people feel more compelled to do that than others--but it pisses off the folks who are just trying to live their own lives. Hence the billboards.
                                          
                                          Everyone has the freedom to believe what they want, or not believe what they want. The problems start when some people--and most of the time those people are evangelical Christians--start pushing their ideas on others and judging other people harshly by their own standards in a very open and unapologetic way.
                                          
                                          That's what I mean by the "mind your own business" code. What makes some folks think that other people's religious views or lack thereof are fair game? If I'm not out there burning up Christians, I expect Christians to reciprocate by staying out of my head and my life. My grandmother used to put it this way: Familiarity breeds contempt. In other words, maintaining a bit of personal distance from others and practicing some discretion is not a bad thing.

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                                             Jewelsposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                                             Tolerance becomes the key ingredient to the code of virtuous persons seeking their own truth.
                                             
                                             Wasn't it a code of sensibility, or self preservation that you didn't engage in arguments to do with politics or religion.  I agree Pam, it's nobodies business how I walk the planet, as long as I don't push my opinions and judgments on others doing the same thing.  Which has become one of the reasons the advertising on the buses has come about.  Isn't it balancing the books?
                                             
                                             The world in it's lack of wisdom seeks to be hellbent on segregation.  Everyone is put in a category, be that christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Athiest, Wiccan, Pagan, nobody, somebody.  Enough with the titles and labels.  Within the box you either put yourself in or allow someone to put you in, grows beliefs.  And because Christian beliefs are different to Hindu beliefs, we have a "you're wrong and we're right" standpoint.
                                             
                                             Anyone who jams their opinions down my throat is violating me.  Firstly I don't like being assumed to be stupid because I don't have the same belief system as a Christian.  I don't like to be assumed a heartless person if I don't follow the code of a Buddhist.  I am a spiritual being having a human experience.  But don't assume you understand my standpoint on what being spiritual is.
                                             
                                             The Evangelical Christian movement has been so vocal, so loud, so righteous, so opinionated in the last few decades that it has crossed so many lines of human violation.  Nobody likes to be pushed into anything.  So are those bus adverts really saying BACK OFF and BUZZ OFF?

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   Mighty Momposted 16 years ago

   Well, I guess that's one way to promote separation of church and state:-)!

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      HotBabesNYCposted 16 years agoin reply to this

      It is a way, to be sure, but not necessarily a constructive or effective way.  It can only be intended to provoke.  This is a waste of money that could be used to help people, especially in these tough economic times.

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         Nickny79posted 16 years agoin reply to this

         WELL SAID.

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         Andrew0208posted 16 years agoin reply to this

          
         Indeed a waste of money. How? Why are they worried and afraid on what they ignorantly know that do not exist. Little sentiments of insecurity grossly expressed in those ads. More bad news of their hate and insecurity. What a pity!

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   Leta Sposted 16 years ago

   Private foundations are allowed to raise money and run what advertising campaigns they want.  It isn't a question of a 'waste of money' for anybody to seriously consider.  Lame...  And I'm not exactly an atheist, either.
   
   Strippers or spammers may not know that, but lawyers should.  But then again perhaps not highly partisan lawyers.

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      Andrew0208posted 16 years agoin reply to this

      
      
      Just little sentiments of their insecurity and hate. Why are they worried about things they claimed that do not exist?

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         Leta Sposted 16 years agoin reply to this

         <Maybe>, but I wouldn't be offended by it.  Maybe amused...
         
         Anyway, its well-known that Mark Twain (Samuel Clemmons) was something of a cynical misanthropist towards the end of his life--so I'd put that all into perspective as a reader...
         
         What I'm saying is that if we are to look at those advertising images displaying naked @sses, ie, lol, or sex to sell crap and accept it as freedom of speech (which we do), then we shouldn't at the same time have an issue with an organization like this exercising that same right. It's actually not even a partisan issue, but just a plain 'stupid' issue.  The 'saving money' comment is dumb beyond words--but that is how conservatives think--ie, you are within your rights to tell your children how they should save their money, but it is not one's place in a democratic society to direct those of differing beliefs in a paternal fashion.

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            Andrew0208posted 16 years agoin reply to this

            Yes, that sounds right. Freedom of expression, atleast they got  much money to sponsor their sentiments.

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5. 57

   Mark Knowlesposted 16 years ago

   
   
   Well, well, well. How very interesting that when churches spend money advertising their non-existent deity it is spreading the good news.
   
   But when some one else spends money advertising their lack of belief, it is spreading insecurity, hatred and wasting money in these difficult times.
   
   What about the bus drivers and mechanics who's wages are paid through these ads? The graphic designers and printers who produce them? The guy who gets paid to stick them on the side of the bus?
   
   Seems like the christian/american thing to do to support the wider economy.
   
   I do see some insecurities here, but they are not coming from the atheists.
   
   Thank you all. It is coming and nothing will stop it. Education and free thinking is on the way. Pretty sure your god wouldn't need defending in this fashion if he existed. Thank you for once again reinforcing my lack of belief.
   
   @Andrew - what are you not understanding about people being sick and tired of people like you preaching? We are preaching back. Simple pro-active sharing of love. Like it says in the bible. Listen to the good news and be set free.......
   
   @pp - I agree.
   
   @ Lita, jewels, cw, mm Couldn't resist sharing this expression of love with my fellow man (kind that is)
   
   Here is another one from the collection to enjoy and ponder -
   
   

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   pgrundyposted 16 years ago

   There is such a double standard here. Where I come from, there was this series of billboards that were just white words on a black background that were supposedly direct words from God, only the words weren't in the Bible or anywhere else. Someone just made them up, and they were all pretty dick-ish--Along the lines of, "believe this or you'll fry."
   
   Some of the faithful totally don't 'get' or care how offensive the rest of of us find this kind of thing and how totally sick of it we are.

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      Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

      Offensive. I agree - I find it offensive and I am sick and tired of it. Especially as the response to these ads shows just how worthless their beliefs are. If the response had been, "good for you, nice to see you expressing yourself in this way........" But no. Insecurity, hatred and wasting money.
      
      Otherwise known as fear. Which pretty much makes the point clear.

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      LondonGirlposted 16 years agoin reply to this

      That's why the original London bus campaign kicked off.
      
      From the BBC website:
      
      "The campaign was devised by comedy writer Ariane Sherine.
         
      She was inspired to seek donations after objecting to a set of Christian advertisements on a bus.
      
      When people went to a highlighted website address, they were told that whose who rejected God were condemned to spend all eternity to "torment in Hell".
      
      Ms Sherine said she sought donations for a "reassuring" counter-advertisement.
      
      She said: "I think there have been a lot of people out there who have been looking at evangelical advertisements and not saying anything and thinking that these advertisements have been approved and just shrugging it off.
      
      "Now finally they have an opportunity to express this feeling of exasperation."

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   Andrew0208posted 16 years ago

   Never compare God with Religion, Religion is man made. Jesus kicked very much against it as it is wholly centered on Self.

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   knolyourselfposted 16 years ago

   Can't speak for atheists, but if you are born evil you would need some higher authority to emmulate, something not found on this planet. However if your are born good, you would naturally know what is good by how you yourself likes to be treated, and by being able to relate to all living things.

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   pgrundyposted 16 years ago

   My partner is an atheist and he's one of the kindest people I know. What's wrong with a man minding his own business and just trying not to be an asshole? Why does that have to be the application of principals from some religion minus the religion?
   
   I think people know how to treat each other decently without studying religion. My dog knows that much and he has no religion that I know of but he still knows how to treat other dogs and how to act around people. Some of it is just common sense self interest. Don't go around biting people and they won't bite you--especially if you stay out of their way when there's no reason not to stay out of their way.
   
   Religion makes it all very mystifying and hard. It's not hard. The Golden rule boils down to two principals that are pretty easy to guess without ever opening a book:
   
   1) Mind your own business. 2) Don't be a jerk.
   
   

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      jgrimes331posted 16 years agoin reply to this

      Wow, okay????? 
      Did I miss something here????  Did I bite somebody?  Am I a dog?  I think I am more like a cat Pgrundy... just curious.
      *****************************Calling on all PEOPLE OF THE WORLD******************************
        I was just wondering if anyone used a principle or code.  If so, I'd like to research it.  That is what I do now.  Philosophical research.  By the way, it is my opinion that there are a vast amount of people who don't have good common sense to live by...  Most in which are believers in a higher power.  Wow, how about that?? 
      
      Pgrundy, believe it or not; I COMPLETELY agree.  I have an Atheist son and agnostic husband...  If my son finds a way to cheat he will.  If I find time to gossip, I will.  If my Agnostic husband doesn't know what his true opinion is; he'll lie about it.  Where is the common sense in that?  My Christian son Zach, likes to treat others as he would like to be treated.  But he has never read the bible nor does he go to church.  However, he likes to read what Buddhist monks said thousand of years ago.
      
      Pgrundy, I don't think you understood from where I was and am trying to come from.  So, if your thread was directed anyway towards my direction- I'll just look upon it as a miscommunication and disregard the "agressiveness" in your tone.  My apologies... 
      
      Is it just me, or can people on both sides be a little over zealous?
      
      By the way,
      Were you telling everyone to not be a jerk or just me?
      Were you telling me to mind my own business or everybody?  I couldn't tell.  I felt your last response to be a bit testy.  Did I step on your toes?  How? Thanks for your response.  I did find you to be...um... enlightening.

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         Sufidreamerposted 16 years agoin reply to this

         Sounds like you have the room in your home for a lot of beliefs and open-mindedness. Shame that the rest of the world cannot follow the example of your family
         
         Don't take Pam's post personally - don't think that it was aimed at you. More at the ones who force their beliefs on others - you do not fall into that category, by any stretch of the imagination.
         
         My partner does not believe in God, although she is studying Buddhism. She sees it as a philosophical journey of self-enlightenment, but without a deity attached. Possibly agnostic rather than atheist - never really asked! Don't know if that is the sort of info you are looking for - delighted to pass on any questions, if you have any, although she is in bed now.
         
         We can certainly all be zealous. I have my little rants occasionally - I hate pseudo-science, Nazis and jellyfish, and usually end up moaning about one of them.

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         pgrundyposted 16 years agoin reply to this

         I didn't mean this personally at all! I don't know you! I was speaking generally--as in, I don't see the need. I'm sorry you took it personally. I honestly didn't mean it personally.
         
         I was saying people could live by the principles of minding their own business and trying to not be jerks without reading any philosophy. I wouldn't say that to you personally.
         
         I think I did understand your question though.

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    LondonGirlposted 16 years ago

    My other half regards himself as a secular Orthodox Jew. Which is slightly odd (-:

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       Sufidreamerposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       lol - I am an Orthodox Christian who refuses to attend Church services, so I know where he is coming from!
       
       Lita - If you had suffered jellyfish stings where I had (probably anatomically impossible), you would hate them too.

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11. 0

    Leta Sposted 16 years ago

    "We can certainly all be zealous. I have my little rants occasionally - I hate pseudo-science, Nazis and jellyfish, and usually end up moaning about one of them."
    
    LOL, Sufi,
    
    Yes, I was going to say that Pam just has a kind of funny-acerbic, tongue-in-cheek sense of humor.  It wasn't aimed at anyone, I don't think.
    
    My partner is much more literal in his conception of God than I am.  I live with it, lol! (Although I am sometimes rolling my eyes!) I have also come to realize that people's emotional attachments often can color their beliefs beyond all reason--ie, his father was a minister.  So I don't push certain philosophies, as I am aware of his psychology and care about him (not the beliefs above that).
    
    'The son of a preacher man,' lol...

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12. 0

    jgrimes331posted 16 years ago

    Sufidreamer writes:[color=blue]  My partner does not believe in God, although she is studying Buddhism. She sees it as a philosophical journey of self-enlightenment, but without a deity attached. Possibly agnostic rather than atheist - never really asked! Don't know if that is the sort of info you are looking for - delighted to pass on any questions, if you have any, although she is in bed now. smile
    
    Why would you ask her religion?  I am proud of you Sufidreamer...  a lot of people would.
    
    About Pam or Pgrundy; seriously, I didn't not take anything personally.  I literally could not tell to whom she was speaking too.  That is why I asked those dog, bite, etc., questions.  Thanks for understanding where I was coming from.
    
    Michael, 'the Agnostic' of my family won't even try reading different lifestyle practices.  He has a comfort zone created in the thought of being Agnostic excuses him from any ideas of being a better person.  Michael is a one-sided, narrow-minded, ignorantly educated on every topic concerning religion, it's theories, or philosphecies MAN.  He uses his belief system to justify his lack of participation in being a less of a self-centered person, over-all righteous good person.  Michael is not a natural at being kind.  He isn't the nicest man on the block, and can be a very narrow-minded poop head.  Eddie, my Atheist doesn't believe in ANYTHING because of his past childhood and what he has seen in his short lifetime.  That tells me alot.  Knowing these things about my family is my motherly job. 
    
    I like to think, if we can understand what it is or how it is that a person comes to believe the way they do, we can have a better understanding of that person.  I my short lifetime, I have never met anyone who believes the way they do without an outside resourceful reason.  It's getting back to the whole worldly peace issue; to better understand someone and their views to an opportunity to be more compassionate and informed.
    
    With all that said, I still think Pgrundy was being a little over zealous responding to my question.  Like maybe how I reacted in the first "Good News" forum.  We are all one great big circle of life.  Why is that I say that?  Because all us share a spot on this earth together.  Isn't it a neighborly act of kindness reaching out to someone who doesn't understand you or that you don't understand?  If people don't start reaching across the aisles to one another, what kind of world are we leaving for the future Atheists, Christians, Jews, Agnostics, Sufism Islamics, etc...  A world of misunderstandings, war, and hate?  What good is that?
    
    Thanks Sufi!

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    LondonGirlposted 16 years ago

    "Michael, 'the Agnostic' of my family won't even try reading different lifestyle practices.  He has a comfort zone created in the thought of being Agnostic excuses him from any ideas of being a better person.  Michael is a one-sided, narrow-minded, ignorantly educated on every topic concerning religion, it's theories, or philosphecies.  He uses his belief system to justify his lack of participation in being a less of a self-centered person, over-all righteous good person.  Michael is not a natural at being kind.  He isn't the nicest man on the block, and can be a very narrow-minded poop head.  Eddie, my Atheist doesn't believe in ANYTHING because of his past childhood and what he has seen in his short lifetime.  That tells me alot.  Knowing these things about my family is my motherly job. "
    
    I wonder, is it also your "motherly job" to slag a family member off quite so comprehensively to a load of strangers on the internet?
    
    not a better person, one-sided, narrow-minded, ignorant, unking, not nice, poop head - bloody hell. If this close relative has friends like you, what are his enemies like?

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       jgrimes331posted 16 years agoin reply to this

       Yeah LondonGirl- it is... 
       I am not telling you anything that he wouldn't say himself.  THAT might of been a better way to question me or my job as a mother.  Is it wise to have your baby's photo all over the world web either?  I don't think so.  I think it is very dangerous.  But I am sure you have a didn't idea than that.  So I suggest you back off London.   Cute baby, I wonder how many sick, child molesters think the same?  Not too bright of a move, not bright!  What kinda of mother puts her childs photograph on the internet for total strangers to view, jack off too, or whatever!  I would hate to be your daughter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    LondonGirlposted 16 years ago

    I don't see how having his photo here can do him any harm at all.
    
    On the other hand, slagging your son off like that is well unpleasant.

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    jgrimes331posted 16 years ago

    LondonGirl, you got a problem with how frank I speak or the way I am truthful.  That's YOUR problem.  Do not personally attack me like that again.  Got it?????  Understood?????
    You and your sense of moral fiber, humor, or whatever you call it- needs to take a good look at what others think of you posting your innocent child's picture everywhere.  Sick.  I think that is one of the sickest most irresponsible acts a mother, like yourself, can do!  Way to go London.  You have no clue to how many pedophiles jack off over your precious poster child, EVERYDAY- now do you.  I take it you've been one of the lucky girls out there.  Well some of use who haven't been think you should be put in jail and your child ripped from you, like myself.  Thanks for the poll and hub idea.  Mind if I use your photograph?  Oh wait, this is a public venue.  I'll use it for whatever I choose  and however I choose.  Real bright mommy....

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16. 79

    LondonGirlposted 16 years ago

    I have prosecuted in the region of 16 child porn cases. They did not involve in any instance a child wearing four layers of clothing.
    
    My son is in no way harmed by having his photo here with me.

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       jgrimes331posted 16 years agoin reply to this

       Still, not good.  You have no control over what others will do and can do.  How can you be so naive with your bright, flashy credentials?  That's scary...  Are you kidding me?  You are an accident waiting to happen.  When or if something terrible comes your way, from being so naive about this issue- I won't say, "I told you so." 
       
       My goodness LondonGirl, you are a danger to your own child with that train of thought.  Seriously! 
       
       Sad...  sad for your child.  At least I'm realistic about my own situations.

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17. 0

    Leta Sposted 16 years ago

    Sorry to interject in the mommy wars or whatever this is--lol
    
    But that is interesting, London G.  I don't even know how child porn works on the internet.  How?

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       LondonGirlposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       "work" in what sense?

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          Leta Sposted 16 years agoin reply to this

          How are kids exploited?  Just pasted photographs, same as print stuff?  How are perpetrators caught and prosecuted?

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             LondonGirlposted 16 years agoin reply to this

             File sharing, pay-per-view sites, commissions, the whole lot.
             
             In the UK, people are caught by all kinds of means. Gary Glitter, for example, took his PC in to be repaired and the repairman reported him to the police. There have also been major international tracing operations via credit card payments.

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    knolyourselfposted 16 years ago

    Could get arrested for even talking about it.

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       Leta Sposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       For real, knol?
       
       Um, I'm simply not interested that way, so guess I do not even know.  Any suggestion of it is gross overstatement, I'm sure.  People post family photos on the net all the time.

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          jgrimes331posted 16 years agoin reply to this

          Lita, when you've been a victim...  you have too think about crap like that.   I wish this world wasn't so cruel to babies and small children.  But my wishes still doesn't change hard core facts.  Children are stolen, used, and lusted after.  The younger the better has been my own personal experience as being the victim of childhood sexual abuse.
          
          Attitudes like LondonGirls, are BillBoards for others.  I had a mom, it seems, similar to her.

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    LondonGirlposted 16 years ago

    Now also slagging off your mother, as well as your son. Excuse me if I don't take your advice...
    
    Apart from just giving warnings of everlasting doom, why don't you explain what it is you think is wrong with the photo?

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       Inspirepubposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       LG, well done on not taking the bait. Definitely a sign of someone who has practiced some sort of spiritual weight-lifting.
       
       As I said to Mark earlier in this thread, have you ever researched Borderline Personality Disorder? It can be a fascinating insight into some otherwise inexplicable interactions.
       
       Jenny

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          LondonGirlposted 16 years agoin reply to this

             
          
          I know a little about it - from having criminal clients who have it (-:

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    Teresa McGurkposted 16 years ago

    So where's the good news?

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       Leta Sposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       If you are happy about atheism or even preventing child internet porn, , you've come to the right place.  lol

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          Teresa McGurkposted 16 years agoin reply to this

          every time I see the word "porn" I think of Orville Reddenbacker.  I wonder why that is?

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          jgrimes331posted 16 years agoin reply to this

          Lita, I find your comments, such as the one above, very entertaining.  lol:)

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21. 61

    Teresa McGurkposted 16 years ago

    OK, now I'm up to speed: this is a forum about atheist buses (I thought buses were mostly agnostic) that turned into discussion on porn.  Now I see what I miss when I'm away reading T. H. White.

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22. 0

    jgrimes331posted 16 years ago

    Back to what I was originally trying to understand, before LondonGirl and I's personal attacks on personal character.  Is there anyone, Atheist, Agnostic, whomever that don't believe in a higher power; but use a form of philosophical guidelines that do reflect directly towards a world religion or teachings.  Like Sufidreamer's roommate, who is Agnostic but likes to follow or uses Buddhism as a guide?
    
    I haven't came across an Atheist or Agnostic, who thinks the way they do because they were born with a blank mind.  Something has influenced them into what they think or believe. 
    
    Before the distraction created by myself and LondonG, I was stating the facts about my family and was just noting the way they think and use their beliefs. 

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    pylos26posted 16 years ago

    FFrF  (Freedom From religion Foundation)…What a breath of fresh air…the only reason the founding fathers neglected to insert this in the constitution is because they had too much claret…This sounds very much like a foundation that I will support...Thanks for the link Mark.

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       Jewelsposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       For what it's worth, cause this thread seems to have gone a bit haywire!  My very first golf tip was FFFF.  Your FF(r)F  just prompted the memory.  For a woman, the best advice for a good golf swing is Feet Firm Fanny Forward.
       
       Just thought I'd share

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24. 0

    pgrundyposted 16 years ago

    Wow. I posted my reply before reading over all the child porn comments.
    
    That exchange does shed light on what I was trying to convey though. Your question about how atheists make moral judgments, as in, do they use religious systems without identifying as being religious, has a touch of the 'set up' question to it--As in, "AHA! See, you atheists are all using religion and the denying it!" There's something a bit condescending about the question though you don't seem to want to fess up to it. It is posed as if an atheist was a creature from another planet and you'd never seen one, ever, and yet you later admit you know atheists and agnostics both, so what's with the fakey, "Let's all understand each other better" routine?
    
    I think we understand each other pretty well.
    
    I've sat through too many weary arguments with unpleasant people who describe themselves as "very spiritual" to think religion has much value. Look how quickly you jumped from asking about religion to accusing LG of pimping her own kid on the internet. That's messed up...I mean, seriously, was that necessary? It's rude and unnecessary.

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       jgrimes331posted 16 years agoin reply to this

       Thanks... I guess.  No you and I don't understand each other. 
       
       LondonGirl lauched a silly personal attack at myself.  I lashed back.  I guess I am the only one in this community who can't DO that.  I see.
       
       As for you, YOU don't get where I am coming from.  I don't understand you.  I don't understand where you think I am being rude for trying to be a better person and understand the lives inwhich others live.  Thanks Pgrundy, I take your words to heart...But I DO NOT understand why you think I am being judgmental, hateful towards you personally or anything else.  I am sorry YOU feel that way.  Please know that IS NOT my thought process.  If I have offended YOU personally.  I am sorry.  But can you tell me HOW I did so?????  Nicely with out attacking me?  I don't seem to learn very good that way.

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          Teresa McGurkposted 16 years agoin reply to this

          I read through all the earlier posts, and I fail to see that LondonGirl attacked you in the manner you suggest.  I did notice, however, that your comments to her were quite vehement, and that was disturbing.

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          pgrundyposted 16 years agoin reply to this

          I don't think you're being hateful towards me. I never said you were. I said you jumped all over LG in a rather vicious way because you did. You also really did take the inventory of all these folks in your immediate family in a kind of negative way, which is, you know, unpleasant. As for me, I never meant to attack you personally and I still don't.
          
          My only point here is that it isn't that hard to be nice to others and allow them some distance to think or believe what they want. A religious system isn't necessary for that. That's my whole point. Nothing deeper than that. I get it that you don't seem to agree.

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             jgrimes331posted 16 years agoin reply to this

             I wasn't asking anyone to follow my advice.  At least I didn't think I was.  I was only trying to gain a better sense of understanding.  I don't want anyone to follow me.  I don't want anyone to take the same path as I.  I have only merely suggest that other people, like myself, try to open their minds to better understanding and compassion. 
             
             Yes Pgrundy, I have not mastered the level of compassion, that would permit me to take an unnecessary personal attack like I received from LondonGirl.  But I think my response towards you has been a complete opposite, if I may make my own case. 
             
             I am very realistic about my family.  I speak frank about them.  Just like a comedian often makes their family members the "butt" of there jokes.  I find that in every other venue, other that this one, it helps other people to see me as a non-judgemental person in this area of research and I get better clearer information back.  Like Mark's latter information and Sufidreamers.  And now from you.   LondonGirl attacked me as to what type of friend I am and mother.  Unnecessarily I felt.  LondonGirl does that to me time to time, without giving pause or reasonings for it.  Since that attack, has he/she gone about trying to explain her opinion to the original thread or commenting constructively on what I was asking?  I'll make the answer easy for you...  She/he hasn't.  What am I to think?  I felt that LondonGirl's sole purpose for commenting on the post I was writing; was to attack me personally.  Why?  What good is that?   Has she since stated a position, tried to explain her thoughts or views to my general questions?  NO!  At least you lashed out at me for what you thought to be my motive or opinion.  With all do respect, it was wrong, but at least it wasn't PERSONAL!    Considering that, why am I at fault?  I didn't start this mess with LondonGirl.  She started it with me, but yet I am the horrible one for pointing out MY obvious thoughts on her- but she is free to slam me for know reason?  So she didn't like how I set up my family as in example.  I was trying to make YOU feel more comfortable with me and I was trying to SHOW YOU Pgrundy, that I wasn't an enemy but a friend.  I am sorry if I offended you with my realistic attitude towards my family.  But they are my family.  I didn't personally attack you or your family.  My family has many wonderful points too, but that would have only insulted you further if I took that approach.  Wouldn't of it?  I think so.  They are my family.  Why should it bother anyone how I speak of them, when I am seeking enlightened research?  Did I hurt your family in making my family an example?  I didn't go about attacking LondonGirl for no reason.  I brought of the child issue, because she was questioning my job as a mother.  Is it her place to do that?  It is clear it is not my place.  Look at the posts after wards towards me.  But it is okay for her to be so ugly towards me for no reason?  Pgrundy, please explain to me why that is.  By the way, look at how defensive you got with me.  I didn't lash back at you.  I made an observation that maybe we didn't understand one another.  I still don't understand your viewpoint.  I got nothing from you last two posts towards me, except that you think I am religious fundamentalist, who hates anyone not Christian.  That is so polar opposite of me, in so many different ways, that I don't understand your viewpoint or why you think I am that way, by the thread I posted asking questions about philosophical beliefs or guidelines.  And I don't think someone has to answer or explain themselves because they do or do not fellow beliefs.  For those that do, I was asking who, what, when and how.  Not even why....  I am lost here.  It's okay for LondonGirl to attack me on a non-issue personal level.  But I can't attack back?  Is that the bottomline of it?  I don't know...

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    Teresa McGurkposted 16 years ago

    Well said, pgrundy.

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       pgrundyposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       Thanks Teresa!

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26. 0

    jgrimes331posted 16 years ago

    PS)  Pgrundy,  I COMPLETELY agree with the bottom part of your post.  YOU and I completely agree the same way.  How was I coming across differently?  What did I say to you or everybody else (except LG) that made you think I feel differently than you?  Do you think maybe you had already had an opinion of me that maybe made you a little short sited to what I was asking and the research I am seeking?  I am guilty of that, first impressions not always right thing.  I never meant to come off preachy in my post asking for knowledge on what guides Atheists or Agnostic's.  Yes your correct.  Nothing is just as right as an answer if someone said Buddhism.  THanks

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    pylos26posted 16 years ago

    I find it odd that when matters of religion comes into play, common sense seems always to be immediately abandoned. Since "common sense" is the only tool mankind has to work with, why in the world does one abandon it and actually believe in impossibilities and absurdities?
    
    ALL the sensible answers are exibited freely in "Nature".  Yep, its all there in "Mother Nature. Some give their money to religious organizations seeking what is free in Nature to anyone able to think. Every desirable thing is right there before everyone in "Mother Nature", AKA God,...if you prefer.

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       jgrimes331posted 16 years agoin reply to this

       Yeah I agree, common sense does seem to fly out the window...  But in philosophical research, Philosophers do not have the luxury of implications and assumptions- hence common sense is not permitted.  To assume using common sense taints the data inputed.  I like your Nature approach.  My Wiccan mom, (step-mom but my mom) wouldn't like the A.K.A. God thing.   She does believe in higher beings and a supreme being, but Mother Nature isn't God, to her or my family.  But that's just my family.  Others might consider Mother Nature as a alias for God.  I am happy for whomever or whatever anyone thinks and how they go about that.  But I do agree, whole-heartedly that nature and life (do) go hand in hand. Thanks!  Julie

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          pylos26posted 16 years agoin reply to this

          Thank you for your response Julie...I didn't mean "Mother Nature" was God...I suggested that those having a psychological need to refer to something as God might choose to use "Mother Nature". I know if i had that need I would...because at least its real and not a "manmade" fable or fraud.

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             jgrimes331posted 16 years agoin reply to this

             Good.
             
             As a side note:   I just called my mom and told her my prayers weren't working.  She is sending me some blessings.  I love it when she does that for me- somehow and for some reason they work better than prayer.

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