Let's begin with a simple premise: You are God. You've created the universe and everything and you're just feeling so damn good about all of it that you decide to take a nap. You wake up from your nap to realize that your Second in Command, Lucifer, is being a great big dick and claiming to want to be better than you, so you have your #3, Michael, drop-kick his sorry arse out of Heaven so hard that he breaks the sound barrier. Guess you should have seen that coming?
So then, as you also should have seen coming, Lucifer gets all pissy and wants to openly defy you in order to spite you, so he...uhh...stops existing until the New Testament? Oh, no, right, those Jewish guys who actually wrote the Old Testament were stupid and don't know anything because HE WAS THERE ALL ALOOOOONNNNG!! CONTROLLING SNAKES!! AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!
So, now that his really-convenient-for-the-clergy-but-damn-near-incomprehensibly-stupid-to-anyone-with-a-brain plan is in motion, Lucifer is out to discredit God and take all the glory for himself, and let's now say that you're Lucifer (God's role is pretty much over at this point, as he does nothing). You want these dumb apes to worship you instead of that lazy tyrant, so what do you do?
Well, if you ask any Christian, they'll say, "MAEK PEPUL DO BAD TINGS BCUZ GOD DUNN LIEK IT," which is about the stupidest possible way to amass glory and worship. (And then the Jews will say, "Luci-what? Are you drunk or something? And what's this 'Hell' nonsense?") So, what would be the best way to make yourself God in the eyes of people?
Well, perhaps appearing in all of your radiant glory in the middle of Times Square, letting cameramen get a really good look at you, and proclaiming yourself to be God might be a good start. Y'know, lets everyone know you're there. And then you'd very much be asserting your dominance over God by having everyone believe that you are God. It's so simple that even a monkey could think of it.
Now, back to us: Lucifer is the 2nd most powerful being in the cosmos, supposedly. This would also imply that his level of intelligence would be much higher than ours. So, assuming the Christian mythos is correct, why hasn't Lucifer done the most logical thing he could ever do and make an extravagant appearance hovering over New York City or any other major city? He's 2nd only to God, so clearly he's smart enough to think of this, and he's supposedly extremely beautiful, so it's not like anyone would doubt him for a second, so...why so stupid, Lucifer?
Obviously, we are not smart enough to figure that out. Satan's ways are inscrutable, beyond man. (I think I've heard that somewhere else?)
As for me, I am more fearful of the unseen players behind Obama than Obama.
Lucifer would be far too proud to have a proxy standing in his place. Besides, we've already seen that Obama is the worst antichrist ever.
I just think of those movies where the despot have "stand ins".
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Okay, Here I AM, making an entrance. Hello, everyone, how are you all doing today! Nice to see the world in disarray, chaos, and dismay. You all are doing a wonderful job-war, poverty, inequality. I could not have been more proud!
C'thulhu! I've told you several times now--you're not the devil! Go back to R'lyeh and don't come out until you've learned your lesson!
YOU do not know who YOU are toying with. I told you who I AM, so just leave it at THAT, shall we.
Well, the world is what I expect it to be-full of malaise, chaos, and other forms of evil. Wars, poverty, ethnicism, racism, and other abuses. I COULDN'T be MORE PLEASED. You all have done QUITE AN EXCELLENT job yourselves. I DID NOT HAVE TO BE INVOLVED AT ALL.
This made me chuckle...very clever, you! Hmm, I'm going to go with-God won't let him. God is big into mysteries and such, ya know.
Brilliant. Thanks for making me smile.
Lucifer's greatest trick is to convince people that he doesn't exist. He also deceives people into believing that God does not exist. That's how he gets souls. People would avoid Satan and go to God, and he doesn't want that; he wants people to go away from God, and then towards him.
If true, it is obvious there is nothing to fear from such an idiot. Even the poorest strategist knows that the best way to convince people to follow them (or do anything at all) is not to run off and hide.
If that's the best Satan can do we should pity him, not fear him.
So, an invisible and undetectable entity that has never been shown to exist is tricking us into believing it doesn't exist? And, it's also tricking us into believing another invisible and undetectable entity that has never been shown to exist doesn't exist, either.
Yeah, that makes perfect sense.
If you don't believe in God, or the devil, then you are free not to care about the way you act. That means that there is no reason to act good or moral, because you will not be held accountable for your sins. Does that sound fair?
No, Morality does NOT come from god or the devil. I don't act well because I'm searching for eternal reward or fearful of eternal punishment. I do good because it is the right thing to do. I help people because I have been helped. I feed people because I know what it feels like to go hungry, and the more that people help each other, the more people are positively affected and society grows and matures as a result. It has nothing to do with god, a devil or a holy book.
What exactly is "the right thing to do?" What are your standards of what is good? They may differ from someone else's. We need a standard set by one higher than us.
Unfortunately all of man's gods have feet of clay, and morals worse than that.
Modern man has constructed a set of morals, even though varying person to person, that typically excludes beating your slave. It excludes killing people for wearing two different cloths or for not being virgin on their wedding night. The list is very long where the morals man invented have vastly improved on those of the Christian god.
Yes, a standard might be nice (though every culture will of course want their own) but as far as one from someone somehow "higher" than us, well, it hasn't happened yet. We'll just have to muddle through on our own. Probably a very good thing - we have progressed far beyond the barbarians that wrote that dreadful moral guide called the bible.
So, you actually admit that you can't even figure out what the right thing is to do? You need someone else to tell you? Are you not capable of setting standards yourself?
I'm just saying that everyone has different standards. Hitler's standards of the right thing to do is probably a lot different than yours. Some people do need to be told what is right and what is wrong. Not everyone is as intelligent as you are.
That's fine, that is not a problem. In fact, Christians amongst themselves have different standards. You will have different standards than other Christian even here.
Hitler grew up a Catholic.
It doesn't take a whole lot of intelligence to figure this stuff out. In fact, there are intelligent criminals and there are very good people who aren't intelligent.
Most people are intelligent enough to realize other people are like them and feel pain by the age of about 3 or 4. The difference is in whether they care.
Morals are dictated by compassion, empathy and the good of society at large. In general terms, it is preferable to feel pleasure than pain, and life is preferable to death, etc. In the big picture, that means that morals are dictated by what causes the least amount of harm to others - and I have seen the harm that YOUR particular interpretation of your religion (and it is all your interpretation. you may get the idea from the bible, but you interpret what the bible says to fit your own precedents and prejudices as in the case with Homosexuality. You said in one thread that ll of your ideas were biblical, but when pressed to point out where in the Bible it explicitly states that demons attach themselves to the brains of infants at birth to make them gay, you came up extremely short - as in no verse at all - which makes me realize that you start with the bible and then make your own decisions and assumptions from there) you are prejudicial against gay people, so you speak out against them, and you don't even bother trying to understand. That' not moral or good. Prejudice is immoral. Slavery is immoral. Hurting people who disagree with you is immoral. It would seem that my morals are greatly improved from yours and I don't need a god to be better.
I never said that it was in the bible that demons attach themselves to babies...you put those words in my mouth. And by the way, I am not prejudiced against homosexuals, but I don't approve of their lifestyle. I hate to tell you this, but demons do, in fact, exist, whether you want to believe in them or not. In the end, you'll see.
Given that homosexuality is a lifelong orientation, and you say demons cause all sin and homosexuality is sin, how does that not mean demons are in homosexual people when they are babies?
you said that all of your ideas came from the bible, and posted a link that said that demons attach themselves to babies, therefore making them gay. You may not like being called out for your own words, but they are your words. So now you're admitting to just making that part up? So therefore your ideas do NOT come from the Bible like you originally claimed?
You can say all you want that demons exist, but that does not make them exist. you can't present one. You can't prove it. It's just a belief - and your beliefs are fine as long as you don't try to make laws based on them or force others to adhere to them.
What is the "homosexual lifestyle" exactly? Do you have a heterosexual lifestyle? What does that consist of, exactly?
A person leading a homosexual lifestyle is outwardly gay, and dates member of his or her own sex. I lead a heterosexual lifestyle; that is, I date men and would like to marry a man one day.
That's not a lifestyle. It's just a life.
Do you get to choose who you are attracted to? Are you just "lucky" to be possessed by a demon of heterosexuality? Do you just get to make shit up to make yourself look better, regardless of the fact that you're just pulling it out of....somewhere?
Exactly, which is why those who don't believe in God or the devil behave according to logic, reason and compassion.
First of all, I have no sins to be held accountable. Secondly, there are many reasons to act good and moral, or didn't you know that? Are you not capable of figuring that out for yourself? Do you actually think that just because people don't believe in gods, they are automatically going to do bad things? Do you not understand that many people are abhorred by that kind of stuff?
I'm sure you've taken the lord's name in vain, stolen a pencil or a pen, borrowed something and not given it back, or told a lie. I am sure you've hated someone. If that is so, then you do have some sins to be held accountable for. Everything is supposed to be for the glory of God. If you're not doing it for God, why are you doing it? To do things for yourself is a sin of pride.
how is feeding someone who is hungry doing something for yourself and therefore prideful? I do those things because it's a good thing to do. It has nothing to do with me, and I don't need a god to do it.
A lot of people say that atheists who don't believe in a god must be immoral. A lot of Christians have told me that without god they would be raping and murdering people. I'm an atheist, and I don't go out raping or murdering people because I lack a belief in a god. It seems that the point is moot.
Looks like I have no sins to be held accountable.
Have you done all those things, or any of them. If so, then your method has failed.
If God doesn't exist, then I would be wasting my life in vain.
You have no choice but to do some things for yourself, or else you would starve to death or be living in the streets. Most things I do are for family and friends.
That the only reason you can find to behave morally is the fear of eternal burning is no indication that everyone else is similarly deficient. Some people do understand right from wrong, and don't need a supernatural threat to behave appropriately.
If you can't think of a reason other than the fear of God/s to be good or moral that is a failing on your part.
Nor, I would argue, should any one of us assume the world is far. If it is, fairness is a strange thing.
On a serious note, there is no LUCIFER, SATAN, nor devil. All are figments in the human mind and consciousness. Humankind invented the devil as a displacement mechanism to explain flaws in nature, and later the more negative aspects of the human character.
The only devil is........US.
And Rabbinic scholars would say the same thing. Well done.
Of course, there is NO DEVIL. Religionists have endlessly used this ploy to control and instill fear in the masses. The devil, Satan, and hell are the biggest SCAREFESTS there is. However, there are some people who lead fear-based lives because of this inane nonsense!
Well, let's pretend there is an entity named Lucifer. I would think appearing before humanity and making all of humanity aware of his existence would be rather stupid. He'd have to tell us he was the Lucifer of Christian mythology. At that point, it wouldn't be mythology. Would it? And, if he wasn't mythological we could easily deduce that other things weren't. Then who in their right mind would side with him? What would he gain?
I wouldn't say that. After all, Lucifer's goal is to become higher than God, even if only in the eyes of God's creation. Thus, when he would introduce himself to the world, he would address himself as "the most high God" or "the one true God" as he bathed his audience in blinding light--a pompous and flashy show from a pompous and flashy entity.
And besides, he would likely have read the Book of Revelation (if you knew a book contained the contents of your future, wouldn't you?), so he knows God can't touch him until the final year of the so-called Tribulation, so the fact that he's not currently parading himself around is mind-boggling...that is, if you're a believer.
I do not act good or moral because some god might someday punish me for it. I act good and moral because it is simply the right thing to do. I do it because it makes me happy. I do it because I know that when someone harms me I do not like it, so why would I want to harm anyone else? This is not rocket science.
The fact that people ONLY do good because they are worried about some imaginary punish-er sitting in the clouds counting their deeds of evil, scares me to death! It sounds to me like you are all just wishing you could do something wrong, but do not do so because this great fearful god is up their holding eternal threats over your heads. This is rather . . . . . . insane! Because the minute you do not hear back from your god, are you then going to start killing every one?
A truly moral person is someone who does good not because of some magical being threatening them, but does good because they realize it is the right thing to do, always and forever! We need the people in the world to do good no matter if no one is watching; no matter if there are no punishments!
What we need is more atheists. No where will you ever see an atheists being serial killers. No where will you see an atheist wiping out whole nations, as you see and read about god fearing people doing all through the bible as well as the Muslim texts.
The only way this world will survive is if common sense finally prevails throughout society and the myth of magical beings watching over us and counting our imagined transgressions is finally eliminated from our common psyche.
Does it mean that if I just decide to be lesbian I get a stylish haircut and a free tool set? I might be up for that. I'll just decide to like girls, for kicks.
You do what you want; I am not burning in an everlasting fire for eternity.
If falling in love sends one to hell, screw God--he isn't worth worshiping any more than the devil would be.
Do you find that an effective strategy? Ministry by way of threat? Do you get a lot of converts by telling them that if they don't listen to you as a mouthpiece and example for your particular god that they're going to burn forever?
Fear can be a motivator - but believing in something out of fear is not a good reason to believe it. I doubt that you're a christian because you're afraid. Then again, maybe you are.
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