The Real Jesus Was A Gnostic

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   Fairbearposted 15 years ago

   This is just my opinion based on the research I've done.
   
   During the first four centuries gnostic Christianity posed a serious threat to the orthodoox sect. But due in part to the strong institutional orientation of the orthodox, and the elitism of the gnostics, gnosticism was virtually subverted to exist solely in obscurity under the shadow of the orthodox.
   
   But I believe that the ideas which Jesus stood for were anticlimactic to organizated religion. Christianity, as it has been for the past two thousand years, is merely the result of ambitious men bent on cultural conqest, and not a genuine search for truth. This is why no truth can be found in it.
   
   The only thing that can be universally agreed upon about the historical Jesus is that he developed a following which blossomed over the years into a wide diversity of differing factions. So it only follows that he possessed certain ideas that were powerful enough to attract followers and devotees.
   
   It is my opinion that the factions of Jesus folowers who adhered the closest to his original ideas were the gnostics.
   
   I believe the real Jesus invoked people to look for the truth within themselves, and taught that to truly know one's self is to know God.
   
   I wonder if any of you have thought along these lines. I'd like to hear what you have to say.

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      Scott.Lifeposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Jesus did say that the Kingdom of Heaven was to be found in the hearts of men and as God is in each of us maybe there is some merit to the idea that greater self discovery will lead to better understanding of God.

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         underhiswingsposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         Can one have a plate full of "self discovery" and not know Messiah?

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      sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      As a Gnostic, I absolutely agree! 

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         Vladimir Uhriposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         Hello my friend, Sandra. You have all right to blaspheme but it is not good. Knowledge is in brain. Brain may get you to permanent troubles.
         I am sorry to hear it.

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            sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            Well I am sorry you have taken offense. Maybe one day when you feel less offended and less in need of telling me and others that I am in trouble instead of walking together in a real brotherhood of love and kindness... we can live in peace. 
            
            With much love,
            Sandra

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               earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this

               Well said Sandra, it would also help if Vladimir did not consider others opinions as blaspheme.
               
               Very much a religionists way of forcing their beliefs on others, and not at all polite.

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         Daniel Carterposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         Most of my studies, research and findings lead me to agree with gnosticism at least in part. The jury is out in many areas of my life. The more I discover and learn, the more I realize I know nothing. I only have more questions.
         
         However, that being said, I am fascinated with Gnostic ideology, as well as "A Course in Miracles." I used to be extremely conservative in my Christian beliefs, but over the course of incredible hardships, loss, tragedy and trauma, the only way to make sense of such things is to take a complete paradigm shift and get outside the box of Christian orthodoxy. As a result, I've dabbled in a lot of belief systems with nothing very conclusive.
         
         All I know is that I feel much more at peace in my own life. I feel more connected to God, or the universe, or whatever it is by taking this path.

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            sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            It's similar to the way I feel as well.  I feel more at peace with the Universe, god or whatever you want to call it on this path as well.
            
            I like to look at the stars and imagine our real place in the Universe... it puts life back into perspective.  It's the saying... I am (hardly) but a grain of sand. 
            
            When I encounter worldly troubles or become frustrated with life, I "reach for the stars".  It helps me know that what goes on down here is just that.  Helps me find my freedom so to speak, even though I cannot leave Earth sorta thing.

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      IntimatEvolutionposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      There is a lot of Christian, historical information to support this theory.  If you'd like more research information on this topic, just send me an email.  I'd be glad to share with you what I know, have researched on and what I teach in class.

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         underhiswingsposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         Yes you are right, the Gnostic's have their own Jesus, like lots of people do.

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            IntimatEvolutionposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            Their own Jesus???  Alrighty then.......... whatever you say.

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               underhiswingsposted 15 years agoin reply to this

               Are you referring to another Jesus other than the one the Gnostic's believe in?

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      Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Nope, can't say that I ever have.
      
      Gnosticism is the doctrine of salvation by knowledge.
      
      But personal knowledge won't save anyone.
      
      The possession of a quasi-intuitive knowledge of the mysteries of the universe and of magic formulae indicative of that knowledge won't save you either.
      
      The cabal won't save you either.
      
      Definition of Gnosticism: a religious orientation advocating gnosis as the way to release a person's spiritual element; considered heresy by Christian churches
      Source
      
      Your Jesus may be a gnostic.
      
      But Jesus Christ is not.

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         Vladimir Uhriposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         Bravoooo.

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      mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      I believe the real Jesus invoked people to look for the truth within themselves, and taught that to truly know one's self is to know God.
      This is what every true or enlightened master will teach, god is within you .

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   atomswifeyposted 15 years ago

   fairbear I wuv ya dear, but you really do not want my opinion on this
   lol

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      AEvansposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Give your opinion Jesus was a Gnostic so we would like to hear your side.

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      Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      I don't mind. I'd like to hear it.

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   Sanctus Vesaniaposted 15 years ago

   @fairbear - I've studied Gnosticism before, and actually almost converted to it, but then I was shown through the spirit of Christ that I needed to be careful.  I read more of their beliefs, and two of their beliefs really clash with the Word of God.
   
   1.  That Jesus Christ did not come into the flesh, for how could he?  Flesh is evil, the material world was created by the evil demiurge known as Jaldabaoth (Child come by here) AKA Samael (Blind God) AKA Jehovah; in order to trap souls in material prisons.
   
   The Bible says
   
   1 John 4:3
   And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
   
   2 John 1:7
   For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
   
   
   2.  Gnosticism teaches that Jehovah was created by the error of Pistis Sophia, who desired to create with out her consort (Logos)  What came was a hideous creature, that Sophia was so ashamed of that she hid him in a cloud.  Then she repented of her error and was forgiven by the Unknowable God.
   
   The kicker?  Sophia is the Holy Spirit in Gnosticism.
   
   3.  Certain sects of Gnosticism teach that having sex is the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
   
   
   Now, the Bible does say that the knowledge of man is in vain, but that Godly knowledge is not.  However, Gnosticism teaches that we must search for God's knowledge ourselves, while the real Jesus, and God the Father teach that their knowledge will be given to whom they want to give it to.

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   Fairbearposted 15 years ago

   SV:
   
   You misunderstand gnosticism. It isn't like orthodox Christianity in which teachings are taken as cannonical or neccesitating strict adherence. Ancient gnostic literature isn't even meant to be taken literally--mostly. There were many differing expressions of gnostic mythology, and all were to be taken as expressions of having found gnosis. If a person were to find gnosis they were encouraged to describe it in their own unique way. Those who found gnosis didn't need to verify it by referring to other written testimonies--they simply knew
   
   And if you had been really serious about "converting" to gnosticism, one of the first things you would've discovered is that to them, there is no such thing as "the word of God." In fact, much of the New Testiment writings were motivated by the struggle between the gnostics and the orthodox that was prevalent at the time. The verses you quoted in your post are good examples.
   
   The only reason the gnostic side of Christianity fell to the orthodox side is because gnosticism is a much less aggressive, less institutional, less centralized system of beliefs. The gnostics were only interested in personal enlightenment --not social conquest. 
   
   If you really want to consider gnosticism, you have to stop thinking of the Bible as "the word of God." Otherwise, you're not really serious about it.

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   Mishaposted 15 years ago

   Did I say you today I love you My Goddess?

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      sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      You don't need to because I already know.    Love you too Misha MetaGod.  *heart*   Nice avatar.

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         Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         Thank you Your Majesty
         
         And I believe it never hurts to say "I love you" one extra time

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   underhiswingsposted 15 years ago

   @ Fairbear
   
   Yes, it is very true, the Jesus who you teach was a total Gnostic for sure, no doubt about it. Plenty of Jesus' running around the countryside then and now.
   
   You have plenty of Messiah's  and Jesus' because the Mormons have one, the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Catholics, the Gnostic's, the Universals, the Christians, the Scientists, the Muslims, the Jews, mohitmisra who thinks he is Jesus, the Buddhists, the Krishna's, the Americans, the White Supremacists, the Hub Pages have a Jesus, and blah, blah,blah...
   
   You have a Jesus who came and lived and died and who is dead, you have Jesus the prophet, the historic Jesus, Jesus the teacher, Jesus who came and was an offering for the sins of mankind, who rose from the dead and who is the mediator between God and man, the Jesus who came once and will not return, Jesus who will return, Jesus who will come and secretly take people away etc....etc...etc...!!!
   
   All of them are a different Jesus. Nothing new here, lot's of Jesus' being proclaimed all ove the world.

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   earnestshubposted 15 years ago

   There are other stories much earlier than the bible from which the biblical jesus story could have evolved also.

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   Vladimir Uhriposted 15 years ago

   Actually knowledge could be trouble and dangerous. Remember the Tree of Knowledge Good and Evil?
   The confusion occurs that we know less as we think we know. We are guessing a lot and then we face the chaos.
   Apocrypha are junk. They are stories not harmonizing rest of the Scriptures. They are written in Greek language and claims to be Tanakh writings. Vladimir

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      underhiswingsposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      What is the Tanakh?

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         Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         Bible, silly! What an ignorance!

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         Vladimir Uhriposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         Old Testament. Sorry.

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            underhiswingsposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            Why is it called that? The Tanakh?

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               Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this

               Oh, you are killing me with your ignorance! If you didn't know - and you obviously didn't - the oldest part of your religion book known as Old Testament to Christians was written by ancient Jews, and  served several thousand years before Christians (and still serves) as Tanakh - the holy book of Judaism.
               
               Are you aware that Jesus was a jew? Or this is a mystery to you, too?

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                  underhiswingsposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                  I am well aware of the king of the Jews.
                  I was asking him why it is called the Tanakh?
                  I know what the Old Testament is, that is not is question. I said "why is it called that"...referring to the Tanakh.
                  Do you know where the term comes from?
                  he used it so I thought he would have known.

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      Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Apocrypha are no more junk than the bible, probably less junk cause they were much less mistranslated and misedited.

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         Vladimir Uhriposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         Oh, common, angel Misha

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   earnestshubposted 15 years ago

   Who's Messiah would that be?

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      underhiswingsposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      That's what I am trying to get at, the person who posted this topic will not say who they are referring to when they say "Jesus"
      Which one?

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         sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         I believe you are requesting a one sided answer so that you can preach about how wrong gnostics and other beliefs are.
         
         In turn I could ask you the same question and if I reply, "not your Jesus".  I can only say then... you are right.  Not your Jesus. 
         
         

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            underhiswingsposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            The OP says "the real Jesus" like it is a factual statement so I am wondering who that is to this person and that is ok to ask.

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    Mishaposted 15 years ago

    Oops, sorry, guess I misinterpreted you then.
    
    I am afraid I am not that good with etimology, especially Hebrew etimology, does it matter though? Do you know where the name bible comes from? Or tora for this matter?

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       underhiswingsposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Yes I do Torah (means instructions / commandments / laws) and Bible (The Greeks called the plant the used to write on biblos), I know where it comes from.
       I was asking him these things because people toss out terms and sometimes do not know what they mean.

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    Fairbearposted 15 years ago

    Sorry, I've been away. Didn't have a chance to respond to all of you.
    
    When I say Jesus, I am referring to the man who most everyone is referring to when they say Jesus. He was written about in the New Testament as well as many other documents from the first four centuries. He is perhaps the most famous person to ever live. That's the guy I'm talking about.
    
    A lot of people don't get gnosticism. They think of it in terms of Christianity. But that just goes to show the truth of it. Some get it and some don't. Those who don't will forever misunderstand it.

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       underhiswingsposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Can you please cite the places He proved He was a Gnostic?
       
       And can you briefly tell us what one is to you?

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    Fairbearposted 15 years ago

    I'm not sure what you're wanting me to site. Jesus didn't write anything that we know of.
    
    A gnostic is someone who seeks, or has attained personal salvation/enlightenment through gnosis. Gnosis is a special kind of knowledge that cannot be comprehended through learning, nor can it be taught.

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       underhiswingsposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Well then, if you cannot prove He is what you think, then why do you believe it?
       And if this cannot be taught, why did Jesus teach?

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          Fairbearposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          You didn't ask me to prove anything. You asked me to cite where he proves that he is a gnostic. That's different.
          
          But regardless. I can prove what I believe about Jesus as well as you can prove what you believe about him. My belief is based on personal experience and personal insight. I've done extensive studies on both orthodox Christianity and gnosticism, and I've found infinitely more truth in the latter.
          
          I believe Jesus directed people towards gnosis. The fact that not everyone who followed him was a gnostic shows how unteachable gnosis is. If you see the truth, there's no question about it. If you don't, no one can show it to you. Not everyone is susceptible to it. But for those who are, guidance can be very helpful.
          
          I also don't think he was the first gnostic. Not by a long shot. He just happened to be extremely influential, perhaps unintentionally.

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             Vladimir Uhriposted 15 years agoin reply to this

             Sound to me is like New Age movement. Jesus is Son of God. I wrote hub difference between trinity of man: spirit, soul and body. The knowledge is located in head and soul is our "human" servant, computer or switchboard. The man is spirit located (headquarter) in the area of heart. The word heart is cor in medical term. But I am talking about spirit man, heart. The knowledge of the man is very important, but priority is faith and second love which are products of spirit and not the soul, (brain). God put to Tree information, knowledge in the garden. Mans should not use the fruit without God's revelation (or consultation). He did ate and he started to see the bad and evil. Then he fell down from revelation to reasoning.
             New Age people embraced all what is outside the Bible. It became so confusing, hard to straight it out.

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                atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                There were actually two trees in the garden.
                One being the tree of life and the other the knowledge of good and evil.
                God instructed Adam and Adam chose and lusted after the knowledge being tempted to be like God.
                Rather than choosing life eternal with God in paradise without sin.
                Boy doesn't this sound familiar of some in here. lol
                God then reconciled Himself to man through the sacrifice of Jesus.
                Thus allowing us to have that choice once again, of the tree of life or the tree of death.

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                   earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                   And adam and eve lived happily ever after with their incestuous kids.

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                   UpHisAssposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                   Excellent work. Just a little more condescending and we are perfect here. See how these ignorant ones will not listen? Say it again.

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                      tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                      Excellent work, yeah ! that's all you've said in all your posts. Maybe you're a  robot

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       mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       There is one story about him coming to India learning from the masters and then going back and spreading knowledge of the Light or god.If this is true then yes he was a gnostic.
       
       Otherwise he may have gained enlightenment somewhere else and not in India which would also qualify him for a gnostic.

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    sandra rinckposted 15 years ago

    You can read some about it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism
    
    You cannot be taught "how" to understand.  You can learn how to do something, you can be told about a concept, you can understand as much as you own mind/heart will permit yourself to.
    
    So people can be taught.  Jesus was called a teacher, Jesus taught a lot of things.  People in general teach a lot of things but not everything can be "known". 
    
    To "knowledge" is equated to agnosticism, to "know" is equated to "Gnosticism".  In gnostisim, everything is about knowledge until it is known.
    
    Some gnostic groups believe that the teachings of Jesus were perverted, others believe that Jesus perverted the teachings.  Either way, the outcome is that a person "seeks" to "knowledge" and when it becomes "known" then it is gnostic.
    
    Gnosticism in their time was a lot like modern science in our time.  I believe that gnostics are much more disliked than Atheist because some call the gnostic practices "witch craft" when really, it's accumulated knowledge of how things work. 
    
    Christians call it mysticism but in science we might call it an experiment or something.  When it comes to spirituality, the mystical nature of the gnostic isn't that we can do magic tricks...
    
    It's because we become "naturally" awakened by the beauty and aw of our natural world and part of that "natural" state is something that a human possess that looks "unnatural" (consider the god inside).  When we give thanks, we give thanks to everything as a whole, not just one god or any god at all.
    
    In which case, our understanding is that god is "unnatural" because it is defies the natural laws of the Universe. ie: it lives but does not die, it is here but was not born, we "know" it but it cannot be defined.
    
    It is not to say that because I do not believe in Jesus or in this god people think of as Jesus, or because I use the term unnatural, that I think it is evil.  It's just what it is because it is not exactly "natural" is it?
    
    So we live in a complex world filled with duality but we do believe in something.  I just don't call it god because I know that the use of the word god has been "hijacked" by mainstream organized religion.  A lesson that I learned late in life.
    
    Again, people can learn, people can "understand", people can teach and share their knowledge and wisdome... but you cannot be taught "how" to understand. This is something that people learn on their own and understand only in themselves.  Hence the way we understand god is considered blasphemy but in my heart/mind... IT just is.

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    atomswifeyposted 15 years ago

    wiki says of gnosticism:
    the belief that humans are trapped in a material world created by an imperfect god.
    I stopped right there as I found the answer.
    
    That sums up why I do NOT believe Jesus was a Gnostic.
    
    As for God, His way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him. (Psalms 18:30)
    
    Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Matthew 5:48
    (we are to strive for perfection)
    Jesus himself said this very verse.
    
    To think Jesus thought Himself as He is God, as imperfect would be well, not true.

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       sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Hi hun. Maybe you should have kept reading to understand the concept behind the use of imperfect.
       
       Good luck with being closed minded.

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          atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          Thank you but I prefer to open minded to who God is. What HE SAID and Where I stand in that.
          Thank you though all the same

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    earnestshubposted 15 years ago

    You open minded? That one bought tears!

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    tantrumposted 15 years ago

    Still with these arguments !

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