-The purpose of the bible and religion is to control you from acting like an animal. It's purpose is not to define a creator.
In sports, which team operates better, a team of followers or a team of individuals?
No difference in government. They want a team of followers.
What makes those follow, a team belief or an individual belief?
Does a team have a leader / captain / coach ?
The government is the leader/captain/coach. You just don't see it.
Be nice if you did not tell me what I see ok?
So do you have an answer to my Q?
You mentioned a team.
The team doesn't need a coach 24/7, only when on the field. Not in home and belief.
OK, so does the team follow instructions from the coach, captain or leader?
The winning teams do. Governments like to win. Have the country to live and act as followers is government philosophy. This is why government created a grouped belief.
So in your life, do you have a coach? Leader? Do you like to win?
It is clear that Founders worked at home and went vote twice a year to Wash. Later somebody taught them from Soviet model sit in the Kremlin all the time. It was nice and warm there.
I think you have it right - "The purpose of the bible and religion is to control you"
The purpose of a cult is to control you, not religion. Many religions allow you to leave without any repercussions.
As far as Christianity is concerned the whole faith is built around the idea that God gave us a free will so that we choose to believe and follow him if we want. It makes our devotion all that more real instead of forced.
Since it is based on free will you can choose to not follow God and live your life how you please.
Do you think God favors your belief over mine? Do you understand the psychology of the bible?
That doesn't have to do with anything. Your original premise was that the Bible and religion are there to control. I respectfully disagree and said why.
There is no 'favored' belief from one person or another. God loves us all equally.
What psychology of the bible? That's so broad I don't understand what exactly you're asking.
So I don't go to hell for not believing the bible? Get out of that one.
So the fear of hell is not a threat to believe the bible? Threats don't contradict free will? Makes perfect sense.
What psychology? A fear drivin belief. The answers aren't always inside the book.
You're starting to go off on tangents.
All the things your talking about only mean something if you believe and expect the Bible to be true.
If it's not true then why does it bother you?
If it is true, like you're statements are suggesting, then why would you not want to believe and follow God?
Ah, so the believer mind is favored to believe. So if it doesn't make sense, read it until you believe it. Or try to believe it, even though it doesn't make sense. If yo see countless contradictions and nothing divine, just believe it is divine when you read it so you will believe. Excellent
If your God created us all invididuals, why would he want a 1 belief system? Make sense?
Wouldn't your father get angry if you called the milk man dad after all he has done for you?
I can't make a simpler example? God made you so He want to follow Him. Not other gods, or nature, Him and Him alone,but we do have free will, even now you know the consequences you still chose the latter. Amazing. You are without excuse, it’s simply a denial game now. I’m done playing enjoy the rest of your day.
It's funny you and other nonbelievers bring up fear out 9 out of 10 convos. We as Christian have no fear in God. Only people who don't know God have Him to fear. You think you're a good person or you're not as bad as most, but let me ask you? Have you ever lied? That’s make you a liar, Have you ever stolen anything? That make you a thief,Have disobeyed your parents? Have you hated someone? That make you a murderer. We have all either lied, stolen, fornicated, lusted or coveted someone else’s things. All those sins offend God, but because He loved us so much, God born of a virgin came to earth in human form as Jesus Christ. He suffered greatly and died on the cross for the sins of man. There are 2 things we must do in order to be saved repent and turn away from our sins and trust in Jesus Christ alone for our salvation. He offers salvation as a free gift, we can never repay. Everyone has a story. Ours stories are just complete in Jesus Christ.
Makes perfect sense, a divine being kills his own son to make a point to his own creation. Your believer minds amaze me.
Yes, everyone trust in Jesus for a 1 belief system. We were born individuals to all think alike. This sound smart to you?
Your belief system is a govenment creation.
No, Jesus was God in human form He died on the cross for our sins so that we may live. See, you know nothing God or the bible, yet you continue. You stand with a group and scream “I'm an individual!,” You know nothing of Creation Science but you discredit it. You deny my God yet you continue to insult His followers. You’re anti religious, but are the top talkers in religious forums. You express your hate of my God yet you deny free will. You have a dizzying intellect, perhaps you should lay down.
Great story. It could have won an oscar. Oh wait, it did.
Ask me to interpret one of your bible quotes.
What group do I stand with?
You answered none of my questions.
I love your government created god, he provides his follwers minds for my entertainment.
Your god is government. You have been suckered. Sorry to break this to you.
Creation science, God creates man with a rib and dust.
The purpose of the Bible is God's revelation of His plan of salvation for man.
That's what it's designed to make you believe to keep you from acting as an animal.
Gods Word is just that.
for you to make this statement so absolutely leaves you being the one having a closed mind and not only that but a closed heart as well.
The Bible was not designed to control anyone. Its purpose is to educate on the past present and future. To give very clearly the path to salvation as salvation leads us back to our first love, God our creator.
It IS what I (and many others) believe because it is the TRUTH. To know God is to love God. If you were to sincerely seek Him out, He would make Himself known to you. That is why believers BELIEVE. There have been countless answers to prayers to countless numbers of people...prayers that only God could have answered. It is my prayer that you will at least consider this and perhaps seek Him out for yourself.
I have asked your religious God until I seen the purpose of your religious God in the bible. The bible has nothing to do with a creator. You fear to entertain this thought. Your belief teaches you to be strong and have faith. You think I am doing the work of the devil trying to make you a non believer.
All religious minds are predictable when their minds come from a book.
It is quite easy to see for an individual mind, not so much for a follower mind. The follwer mind is easily trapped in belief.
You lost me at your all caps TRUTH. My open mind just glazed over.
Amen to it. I would like to add to live victorious life.
Remember, religion is controlled by Satan. Marine is right.
Satan is sitting in the churches or religious institution all the time. Only people do not see the difference between Biblical belief and religion.
Do you act like an animal? If not, then this part is in complete error without even discussing any further. Some animals eat their young. Do you eat your children?
If a team played the game 24 hours a day 7 days a week, then the coach would always be there directing.
Do you know what makes a good leader? The reason this nation is in such a sad shape right now is because no one knows how to follow anything. All of our leaders were raised to lead without even knowing first how to follow.
Jesus Himself first came to the world as a man and followed the law to the letter, but not only the letter of the law, but He also followed the spirit of the law.
If you watch sports very much, you will know that each member of a team has a different job or position to take care of and do. For instance, the center who snaps the ball to a quarterback cannot be the quarterback. He must take care of his position and do his job.
And you answered not one question I asked in return. Believe what you want and tell everyone you like top discuss, but make sure you point them to this thread so they can see how you like to discuss.
What team plays 24/7? You ask ignorant questions and expect an intelligent response?
Out of everything I wrote, this is all you have for me? God never sleeps nor slumbers. He does not need rest like we do.
What is the quote someone seesm to mention all the time on forums. There is no such thing as a stupid question, only stupid answers. Something like that anyway.
Hey marine, integrity does not depend on what someone say or not. Please remember that.
The bible is so old and outdated. I cannot believe people are still following these "rules" from way back when...it's 2009 people!! Life is different today...My God, we'd all be burnt at the stake for speaking out as we do on here. We don't need to be controlled, that's what caused all these worldly problems...we are given Free Will and a bunch of men decided we can't have it...not God, some old farts who wanted there own way...there's a place for religion, but it needs to come forward a few centuries
Yeah! We need to open our hearts to NAMBO they are just normal people who are misunderstood because of those selfish Christians! Leave the teachers alone too! They work hard and they know whose old enough for sex way better than the parents do! Will you please leave the movie directors alone they have enough experience making family movies to know when a child is begging for sex! See we have these rules and this is what happens if we had no rules everybody would behave and none of this would ever happen! Silly rules!
"The bible is so old and outdated. I cannot believe people are still following these "rules"
Well then just run out and break any of the 613 commandments and see how your life winds up.
Start with this one.
Go have sex with your parents and a few animals.
The place and only place for religion is control. Religion is based on lies and deceit to group belief.
You are only here to create war soldier as thats all you know.
Just WHO exactly wants this control?
This may work for organized religion, but not all "believers" are part of one?
As for defining the creator, I think the Bible does a pretty god job if doing just that.
I disagree. The bible is not by any means control but a guide. The creator is already defined. Whether sports, government or individual, our laws are defined from this book. Everything from credit to government to getting along with your neighbor.
The belief has to be believed by all not governed by one. God loves all of us not just some of us
The creator is defined by government. Just because you accept a government creator doesn't mean everyone will.
Lol mention how all of the credit and government is already defined, is government and credit divine to you?
Excellent examples. You only helped prove me point more.
Government is belief. understand that.
Your government defined creator only accepts believers, not individuals.
The purpose of bible and religion -- to create controversial and adversarial forum threads?
the purpose of the bible and religion or not the same thing. not all religions have bible's. The bible is for direction and understanding of God's perfect will for our lives. Out of the bible comes many different denominations. It is not to keep us from acting like beast or animals, for from the begining we did not act that way. For not all people who read the bible or practice religion act normal. Thats why some pastors can have sex with women other than thier wives, and get 16 year olds pregnant.
They are the same thing. The same thought process they use in the bible is the same one used in the churches.
From the beginning, we did not act like animals? Are you conscious of today's society? Many of us humans still act as animals. You prove it with your pastors example.
Watch the news.
Mankind has not moved at all in some ways since the stone age. All the bad things we did then, we do now. Not one lesson learnt!
The same stuff goes on as always. Got a bigger stick? Your the man!
The attractive men had food shelter and warmth to offer.
They were attractive to the women if they had more.
Many women today are the same. Show them two identical old guys, one with money and one without, and see who they call "sexy"
Jealousy hate greed and avarice have not changed. Religion just projects them on to "other than self" as if the rest of humanity were garbage and they are immune from the human condition, or through their religion sit above it.
Thats not true! We only act like animals when were having friends in the pasture sex and that's quite nice! My family moved to America and we put doors on our houses! We learned not to drag our signifigant other around by the hair. They didn't like it anyway and it was starting to piss them off!
It's Damn hard but I do what I can. Pass me that leg of kangaroo, please.
OK, I can spare it, I'll shoot another one after dinner.
You know we are a rare country. We eat our national symbol!
LOL I tend to agree, we definitely improved in that area comparing to Middle ages.
How do you know? Have you been there?
Man, facts, give me facts!
It is true. Adam had extreme high IQ. Now we have only 10% or less.
With high IQ, still he messed. He would like to know everything without the Teacher who made all things.
Saying people act like animals is an INSULT!!...............to the animals.
No if you follow faith you are lost. Faith is a poor substitute for fact.
No proof can be found for a god, however a new scientific discovery announced two days ago helps to fill the gaps in what we already know scientifically about evolution through natural selection.
I think we are all individuals who can follow the lead of a great leader in order to accomplish a great goal.
No, I am speaking in terms of if someone has a better vision than we do and we work together, then we can get more accomplished.
If people are working together, they cannot all just rin around and "do as they want"
I am not talking about just blindly following someone.
Why can't you think as you're the one to be followed ?
I am followed.
I have people in my life who are wiser than me and older by 20, 30, 40 years who's advise I can follow or learn the hard way which would make me an idiot for not listening.
I am followed by many in what I do, I am not proud about it, I just set and example and it is followed.
I know when to lead and when to follow. Knowing both is having humility.
Well ,I can listen, and many times I have. But I never follow.What for. I can arrive at my own conclusions
...which is probably why you don't make a very good 'sheep'
(me too. i suspect they were glad to see me go, what with all those questions and whathaveyou...)
So if I know a way out...you would not follow?
To listen is to follow...can you follow instructions?
No I can't follow instructions from others. Maybe because I only trust myself.
Gosh dude, what if you are trying to play music?
could you follow instructions then?
I'm not a music persona, but I'm a writer, and I can tell you I never followed instruction about it . Painting the same. I never studied, because as I said before, I can't follow instructions. I never finished school for the same reason. That's the way I am .
You have to learn that you know nothing in order to give instructions. Your arrogant assumptions of belief don't do the trick. Your belief is a conspiracy, keep the faith.
Who do not fallow is either spoil rich or on well-fear check or else?
Knowing both is humility, following for a lifetime is ignorance.
I'm a semi-old man.
I have everything I want. I don't need to follow anything. I just think that it is respectful to acknowledge the creator and praise him in all adversity.
Marine- your forum is one of the biggest conspiracy theories that I have ever heard. that being said, I love you and so does God- tomorrow I'm going to teach you how to find answers in the bible- you can test the word agianst your theory.
Now I'm gonna go back to dancing with my wife to fifties songs.
I have ran many thoughts through my head on the purpose and believe my theory to be 99% correct.
Still, I will answer any question or statement. Thanks.
Everything in the world is in mess. Mind of man cannot resolve it. See opinion is wrong too, most of the time. It will creates the religion. The religions are all wrong.
Only answer I seen is the Word of God the Bible. It's look like people have the scales on their eyes and could not see. But those who seek will find.
My theory is 99% correct in my belief leaving room for error because of being unproven.
Your theory is 100% correct and absolute in your belief simply because of faith.
When there are so many questions left open to our existence, absolutes only exist to the arrogant.
Yes we can all join in with good christian values!
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
Makes me wanna puke!
From the NT
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
If you are going to quote it, quote it all earnest!
Ephesians 6:5-9 (Amplified Bible)
5)Servants (slaves), be obedient to those who are your physical masters, having respect for them and eager concern to please them, in singleness of motive and with all your heart, as [service] to Christ [Himself]--
6) Not in the way of eye-service [as if they were watching you] and only to please men, but as servants (slaves) of Christ, doing the will of God heartily and with your whole soul;
7)Rendering service readily with goodwill, as to the Lord and not to men,
8)Knowing that for whatever good anyone does, he will receive his reward from the Lord, whether he is slave or free.
9) You masters, act on the same [principle] toward them and give up threatening and using violent and abusive words, knowing that He Who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and that there is no respect of persons (no partiality) with Him.
Slaves were just part of society and rules had to be established is all.
It's been abolished. It was part of our society too and not long ago, so get over it. The scriptures had the most fair rules of the time, way better than any other society in history man.
I do not see you complain about the other countries who had slaves.
What do you do to this one?
Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)
In Pauls time there was a social and legal separation concerning masters and slaves. But as christians masters and salves became equals, spiritually. His instructions in this scripture you qouted can applied to us today even.
Just substitute the word master for employer and slave for employee.
It was the context this was given in. That when we work, we should do our best, and be respectful. In this scripture we see where obviously some of the slaves/servants had taken advantage of the fact that their masters were now christian, hence the addition of "If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being..."
I dont think this scripture in any way demeans anyone if that was where you were going with this.
I believe it demeans the whole bible.
You have no problem with this "enlightened book" permitting slavery? Good for you!
It did not permit slavery. Slavery was just the norm of that time and place.
Paul was reflecting the christian side of it. Not all "slavery" was as we know it to be either. Not all of it was full of violence and mistreatment. Slaves/servants had their place in the home they served. That was just their reality.
Such as the case of employers with their employees in these times, we all have a responsibility to each other both the employer to his boss and so on down the chain of command. Paul was simply instructing us to work hard and be respectful of each other including the masters who owned servants.
You just seem bent on twisting scripture to try and justify yourself in hating it so much.
No twisting, just quoting from your book. Why would anyone need to twist anything from the bible it indicts itself so well!
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
Nothing wrong with any of this eh? You are blind by choice if you reckon this is all OK.
The Bible acknowledges that there was slavery not that it condoned it! That is where you are misguided in reading it. Was there slavery? Yes. Were there laws pertaining to it? Yes. All the Bible does in those Old Testament Scriptures you quoted was bring their time to life for the future readers.
Does it ever ever say, Thus says the Lord? NO!
Those were mans laws, not Gods! Gods Laws were given, written on the 10 commandments.
Gods laws and mans laws differed quite significantly throughout time. Thus Jesus came to FREE us all from the bondage, the slavery of sin.
Again, mans laws differed from Gods laws. Man is fallible where God is not. Man is not just where God is.
Some people try to say that Bible endorses the slavery.
It is true what said above. Slavery was in existence. Since God is love He could not resolve the slavery by force. It will resolve by seting kingdom of God by itself and by fallowing God's Word.
The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)
If the Bible is a book designed to control people it has failed miserably. It represents itself as the word of God and from its beginning defines that God as the Creator of all that is. Parts of it are about establishing law for ancient Israel and parts are about how ineffective that law was to change people who would not submit to it. The law is, to put it simply a cold, hard code of conduct. It doesn't do anything but is available for anyone who will observe it perfectly. According to the Bible no one can observe it perfectly and therefore all are condemned.
The point of it is to reveal man’s problem (sin and the death that follows) and the solution to that problem (forgiveness and righteousness by faith the one redeemer who is God’s Son who is the embodiment of the law).
Bulldust! The trouble with the bible is that it is just a bunch of recycled beliefs from an earlier time, and has no basis in truth.
Lots of questions here:
Which part is "bulldust"?
Besides a running narrative of Israel's history that is precisely the way the Bible presents itself.
What beliefs from an earlier time? Do you know?
In fact the Bible is written in such a way that it begins at creation and moves forward in time. It is essentially (without getting too wordy) a collection of God's wisdom from throughout time.
And as Pilate once asked "what is truth?" Do you know that as well?
Also, quoting segments of any historical/religious document without any consideration of historical, cultural, literary, or immediate context is a freshmen gimmick. It gets your point across (presumably you don't accept the Bible as truth) but it ignores the purpose of the segment quoted in its immediate context and within the whole.
This debate, by the way, is hinged on the issue of faith. No one can prove a creator with rats in a laboratory. Nor can anyone prove the legitamacy of the Bible as the Creator's word.
There is no question that the message in the Bible is foolishness:
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Corinthians 1:18
There is excellent reference book by Dinesh D'Souza: What is so great about Christianity, even atheists made good comments. It showed how Christianity changed and brought freedom, equality even atheist enjoy it. Good reading. America based on Judeo-Christian principles changed slavery to freedom.
"The law is, to put it simply a cold, hard code of conduct. It doesn't do anything but is available for anyone who will observe it perfectly."
Please back this up with a reference.
10For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM."
11Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."
12However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM."
13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"--
Here's another reference that might come in handy:
"A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger"
So how does that prove what you said that ""The law is, to put it simply a cold, hard code of conduct. It doesn't do anything but is available for anyone who will observe it perfectly."
Paul says that the Torah is holy, just and good. He also said it was spiritual.
You call it "a cold, hard code of conduct. It doesn't do anything"
And why would Messiah come to fulfill the whole Torah if it was "a cold, hard code of conduct. It doesn't do anything"
Messiah also said that "I have not come to abolish the Torah"
Who taught you this? Sounds like Christianeese to me.
You need be careful how you think about what the Torah is man.
I appreciate the advice.
But why would Messiah come to fulfill something except that it was lacking.
David praises God for the beauty of His “perfect” law. It was and in fact is all of those wonderful things but in terms of ABILITY it is merely a written code Rms.2:27, 29, 7:6, Col.2:14
The CODE of law (not Torah as a narrative or wisdom – there is a distinction) was unable to affect change in man because it was at the mercy of men to submit to it. That is not to say that it didn’t have power over man. It condemned us. And in fact if we choose to live outside of faith in Messiah we are all subject to the law that condemns. It is without mercy. It is without emotion. It is just. It is perfect in its requirement. But it is “weak” in its ability to redeem and make righteous.
Heb.8:6-9 and Rms.7:21-25
Yeshua on the other hand is the Torah made flesh. He could (and did) by His divine nature affect change. He is the fulfillment of the law and is therefore human, deity, merciful, just, perfect and superior to the written code.
You have part of it right. It is to "establish law". You know the meaning, you just find ways around it to justify your belief.
First of all, thanks a bunch for the affirmation.
Unfortunately, the rest of what you said came off a bit ambiguous. What do you mean by “you know the meaning”? I wasn’t addressing the meaning of something but the purpose. I simply gave the Bible’s self stated purpose in response to the issue “The purpose of the Bible and…?”
Also, what do you mean by the phrase “you find ways around it”? I’m particularly confused by the word “it” in this case. What am I finding ways around? Again, I simply gave the Bible’s self stated purpose.
Do you mean that the Bible has a way of justifying its own message? Because I would have to agree with you there. Whether a person agrees with it or not it does define itself as I represented it. It is also true that the Bible has been used by many to do a great deal of damage to the truth throughout history and today. I think many people want to blame the Bible for the failures and deceits of men.
The Bible also says:
James 1:27, 2:2-4
Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world
For if a man comes into your assembly with a gold ring... and there also comes in a poor man in dirty clothes, and you pay special attention to the one who is wearing the fine clothes...and you say to the poor man, "You stand over there, or sit down by my footstool," have you not made distinctions among yourselves, and become judges with evil motives?
The fact is I understand why people hate many of the things I hold dear. Because there are plenty of evil men using the Bible to control others for money and all kinds of personal gain which reflects on all others who love God’s Word but their actions should not reflect on the Bible itself. Here’s what The Bible says about the kinds of people who give us people of faith a bad name:
But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.
Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping…They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish…These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand…
You know the meaning of the bible which is control. Thats it. It's not to define a creator.
You don't have to keep adding bible quotes, I already read your book of beliefs.
Everyone has a different interpretation, this is to keep you busy.
You rule out all the contradictions in the bible by picking and choosing what to believe.
Thanks for keeping me busy. I have enjoyed this.
The cartoon of religious vs. non-religious minds that you propose doesn't answer for how many varieties of different beliefs there are among religious people. A bit of a conflict for you.
The religious world is overrun with people choosing their own path and abandoning the narrow Biblical way. Religious people are more likely to think for themselves and deviate from an orthodox position unlike those who oppose them who have only one position and seem to be intellectually enslaved to the role of religious antagonist.
Again, Thanks for the busy.
"When a wise man has a controversy with a foolish man, The foolish man either rages or laughs, and there is no rest."
I say and even you say that the bible was meant for 1 belief. Is 1 belief healthy? The different religious beliefs are from different interpretations. Simple. The writers only meant for 1 belief. Religion created different religions in effort to individualize. You can't individualize when you take your belief from a book.
Tell me which belief is limited, a follower belief or an open belief?
Actually I was trying to say that deviance, and waywardness are more individualistic than EITHER
1. a rigid fundamental belief
2. a static stance of opposition to any kind of religion
I don't know what an open belief is. It sounds like deviance from orthodoxy to me and that would then be explained above.
If open religion means the progressive accumulation of scientific knowledge then sure I'm right there with you. But as we are confronted with new scientific revelation we will each view the data through our eyes. I will see it as a Messianic believer in Yeshua and you will see it just as narrowly but in opposition to all other religious interpretations - which will themselves be at odds because as I said religious people are more diverse or open to believing things than the anti-religious.
Also you said:
"That was the plan, one truth, one religion, one belief. No individuals. The different religions is from religion trying to individualize. It wasn't the plan."
Your idea of individualism escapes me as well. "No individuals" doesn't follow. Why not? Because they believe the same? You define individualism as contradiction. Do you lose your individuality when you share a belief with others. Do you lose your individualism when you meet someone who shares your opinions? Or is it simply by having a same or similar opinion to others in the world?...in time? If that was true how would you deal with that? Do you change your position when you meet a likeminded person? I don't understand.
By the way, if you have some special revelation as to some plan and who devised this "plan" you have to tell me how you know this. I admit freely that I follow the Bible. As you pointed out I used the Bible plenty to make my case. So, please tell where you got the real plan. Don't hold out on us. This could change my life.
Thank you for the conversation.
When I say open belief, I am talking about individual belief that is always changing, always open to debate, never content, never with limits, no fear.
If you limit belief, you are limiting you mind. When limiting to the bible, your belief is confined within a single book.
I believe true individual belief should be 1 belief. Not a belief that is preached and taught to followers. This is a contradiction to individualism.
When parents raise a child, they only raise them to adulthood, not their entire lives unless they are "dependent". If the parents were with the children their entire lives, they would be contradicting their childrens individualism.
I believe in individualism, you can draw your idea of good influences and learn from the bad. Just because you learn from someone doesn't mean you have to follow everything they do including their belief.
Again, I believe the bible, religion, interpretations, faith, were all formed simply for control. Maybe by early forms of government or religion. I believe it is the most brilliant conspiracy in history to say the least. I believe that it has absolutely nothing to do with a creator.
Thanks back. I'm enjoying it.
I get the part about not wanting to be tied down to the beliefs of others and I understand the appeal of deviance from sources of wisdom. I can even understand the appeal of wanting to establish your own "truth". Not knowing you I am inclined to think that your sense of individualism is integral to your personality. You want to be free in body and mind. Some people have the same personality and apply it within a religious context.
The following are simply - My Opinions
I think that religious people all want those same things. However they are seeking to secure them in some esoteric, or spiritual (whatever people mean by that - I don't presume to know) way. I wish that people who professed to believe in the Bible actually read it and studied it and took their pastors and teachers to task over some of the dumb stuff they teach. That kind of approach would be individualistic as well.
I believe that if you chose to look objectively at the motives of the religious crowd you would see the exact same sentiments as you have expressed. I think you would recognize in them the same sentiments of freedom via a different rout. They are not bound by a conspiracy to gouge out their own eyes or drink poisoned kool-aid. they are also changing, and shifting in their views on issues.
Not everyone who is religious is honest (like every group of people) and most don't adhere to any tradition with its roots too deep in history. Most people who call themselves religious don't buy into the whole program - just the parts they like. That is individualism.
You still haven't changed my life with the sources of your belief in a conspiracy. Without a source it becomes an awful lot like faith.
Ty for responding.
Tell me which is free will, belief within a book or belief without limits?
Of the religious you mentiond that pick and choose, they are not true individuals. They still follow the biblical version of creation to an extent. They lack ideas of creation due to the bibles intervention. If they are picking and choosing from the book, the book still has influence.
Answer me this, why wouldn't government want a 1 belief system?
I think you want me to tell you why they would. They wouldn't for a lot of reasons like:
they believe in liberty and tolerance
their law doesn't allow it...
But you are absolutely right, I'm sure that many governments do want to control their population and for nefarious reasons. And there is no shortage of religious people would love theirs to be the religion of choice. Keep in mind the particular belief that you are focused on exists today in spite of many attempts of governments through history to eradicate it by killing off its proponents. This continues today in dark, little enclaves of the world. I don't think that there is a government extant with designs to institute Christianity as policy. I certainly have observed the homogenization of culture and ideas in my lifetime. So I see where you’re coming from but I think most religious people (particularly orthodox Bible believers) see their government as limiting the expression of their beliefs.
Perhaps because the Bible warns of one religion under one government fundamentalist Christians fear that idea the most.
But all of this is not proof that the purpose of the Bible is to help a few people control others for a little time. I also would not equate atheism with the desire of the state to control the masses even though the most controlling of states have taken that approach. Russia, North Korea, China, East Germany...all of these have murdered and imprisoned religious folk for demonstrating their faith. They, each one, instituted Atheism as a state substitute for religion. Yet that doesn’t prove that Atheism exists so that the state can control people. Atheism is just something that appeals to Marxists/Maoists and governments have chosen it to control and oppress millions for almost a hundred years now.
A belief in creation isn't in conflict with individualism any more than a belief in evolution is. help me out with this one. I feel like I'm missing something.
Free will? I still get hung up on Zeno and Parmenides.
Sir, Government believes in liberty and tolerance?
Hard not to laugh at that one. Government only cares for government. Money breeds greed. All the politicians care for are themselves. We are just statistics. Do you trust government with your personal decisions in life? I do not.
Government understands that to have a winning government, they must have followers, not individuals. All government knows this, all sports teams this. What is easier than to have all of them believe as 1? Does a government strive for individuals or followers?
I'm glad you talked about the atheist countries. Excellent.
What do I think would happen or happens when a government operates with minimal control or belief? Chaos. I would be an idiot to say that your everyday person could rely on themselves to get through life. A lot would act like "animals" with little to no guidance. This is why government formed the bible and religion. Individuals = Chaos. Followers = Control.
I believe controlling any belief or non belief is wrong through any government unless the believers are suicide bombers.
I believe taking sides and making assumptions to evolution or creation are both arrogant.
With evolution, it's not explained and verified how/what we evolved from. I believe most of evolution because of our common dna with so many other animals. It doesn't explain our minds complexities and how we transfer information to future generations while other life doesn't have this ability.
At the same time, the biblical version of creation is quite ridiculous to me. I believe the biblical assumptions to be as much if not more arrogant than evolution.
I believe a set belief on one side or the other is a contradiction to individualism. I believe a true individual will be a medium not picking a set belief of one side or the other.
Slimy, dirty reply totally unrelated to the post. You are a piece of work!
Don't "ACT" all offended Mohit.....you are off calling the Marine an "a$$hole" and a few other choice things....so back up and step off of it.
Asshole is different from telling someone to go f..k your mom.Cheepo.
Like I said, if you read it I was just telling them if they do not like the "rules" then to quickly run out and break them all.
The hypocritical prophet is exposed again.
Oh wait...I was only agreeing with what the post said fellas.
"And as Pilate once asked "what is truth?" Do you know that as well?"
Yeah, I do.
Aren't you fed up answering always the same things ? It's kind of useless, don't you think? Useful only to make jokes about it
You guys argueing over scripture quotes,
This is what the bible creators want, you to argue over scriptures and quotes of your interpretations so you will not see the bible and religions true purpose.
Argueing over scripture is the same as taking the bait to believe. A simple distraction.
Which mind is limited, the believer mind or the mind open to belief?
Another simple question that doesn't take a genius.
That's just your Opinion and you don't have to "follow".
hello everyone have you been having fun.
In my opinion the bible is there to foretell the coming evernts,. also to give us examples and guide lines to live by... Religion is a different matter actually...
If there is only one truth, there should only be one religion.
That was the plan, one truth, one religion, one belief. No individuals. The different religions is from religion trying to individualize. It wasn't the plan.
i honestly don't believe it was..... so where is the truth
I could not agree with you more with your last statement.
Religion today has little to do with the creator.
Long long ago something got in the way and ran off with scripture. They stuck it in a different envelope and sent it to a different place.
An individual doesn't need a scripture to live by.
Me and others can figure out the psycology behind the bible and a divine being couldn't hide it? Make any sense?
I just can not imagine a belief system that is limitless unless ya can reach that point of being a creator
can ya explain this to me?
When I say limitless, I am talking about belief that is never set or content. I'm not talking about belief that can physically move mountains with thought. Although, if you put limits on your belief that you could never move a mountain with thought, it would logically give you a less chance of ever being able to accomplish it.
I agree about individual beliefs. I do not have a belief, but a series of them as many people do.
I always want empirical evidence as a minimum for belief.
Then as in science, the bits have to fit with other evidence.
They are the bits that fit for me.
Good deal Earnest, Just thought I would say hello.
Hi marine! I hope you are in good shape! From your posts, I feel confident you are. I like your self worth and belief in ongoing knowledge. You make sense to me.
Question to believers, I can analyze your thought behind the words you write, you think I can't analyze the thought behind the words the men of the bible write?
What does your faith tell you? I'm the devil? Just go right past a logical answer that I have read the bible. Having ADD, I have asked and answered close to every question of your thought and belief. You are too arrogant in belief to understand the books purpose.
Do we all understand the purpose/reason of the bible now?
Does this mean you are debating my ideas in your thought or does it mean you have written them off because they challenge your faith?
You still have yet to answer which government you think created God. LOL
Was I alive then? Any grouped belief can/is religion or government. It doesn't have to be termed. Religion is government, government is government.
You didn't answer what prophecies were fullfilled and you didn't read this entire thread because it challenges your faith.
LOL but you are the one citing God is government made. I have asked as well as others where you draw this vast knowledge from.
I did not answer your prophecy question as I thought being so well versed in Bible knowledge surely you would know these facts for yourself.
I am not going through all the prophecies in the Bible one by one with you. You can see it for yourself and study it for yourself as I and others have.
You asked the initial question of me "why do you believe the Bible is divine?" and I answered you that.
Let me point this out to you though to give you a taste of prophecy as it pertains to your absurd statement about our God.
The birth of the Messiah was foretold some 1300 years prior to Christ's birth. He alone fulfilled over 300 of those prophecies.
The government tried to have this prophecy fail. They tried to destroy the Word. They tried to kill Jesus prior to his birth and then again on the cross.
So again, what government are you talking about?
You are truly ignorant. Any grouped belief is a government as I have already said. How many times do I have to explain this? The only prophecies that have came true are the ones intrepreted through your faith. You will believe anything you read.
You have absolutely no knowledge of individualism. You still have not read the entire thread. You are content in your ignorant faith.
call me whatever you like. It is that level you stoop to which reflects the kind of "individual" you are.
The bible for me is Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth. It's the inspired true word of God. "Jesus is the most influential person who has ever lived. The difference between Jesus and religion is that Jesus is Gods way to reach man, and religion is man's way to reach God." unknown
Sir, does this mean you didn't read the entire thread because it challenges your faith or no?
Is it good for a mind to be content with it's answers when there is so much that is unknown without faith?
Does the bible answer all of your questions without faith or interpretation?
Did the bible teach you to write someone off when you haven't read what they have written because it is the devil?
Okay marine shoot, What challenges do you have?
Sir, I simply asked you to read the entire thread before passing judgement. Faith should not control belief.
Judgement? I was simply answering the title. Are you a deist? Sir?
Okay. Since you wanted to engage me further. What questions can answer for you? Any? Due to our firm opposition debate is NOT possible and I really don’t want to ague with you. Or would you like to continue to haunt to religious forums, but deny being religious. Whatever your faith is you're a fundamentalist.
You didn't read the thread. How can I ask you questions when you haven't read the one's I have already asked? Make sense? Or was you simply going to use intrepretation?
What questions? From what I have read you are a ranting anti religion zealot, who doesn't know the difference between God and religion. Ask me questions that apply to me and any other true Christians, not those who think religion is God. Why can't you grasp these simple truths.
"From what I have read" means you picked and choosed what to believe. Go figure.
Would there be religion without the concept of God?
Don't be frustrated because I don't feel the need to title my belief. This is called an independent belief. Write that down.
We are all born individuals, why would a divine being wish to group all to have the same belief when we are all born different?
Do you think you are favored for your belief? Yes you do.
Favoritism is mans creation, not divine creation.
It means I read your opening and the first responses. Your assumptions are what's frustrating not your beliefs. My dad-in law was a Green Beret served in Vietnam as a medic and also suffered with PTSD it took him until he was 55 to find Christ. Now he’s a missionary to China spreading the gospel. Just thought I share that with you. God has no favorites He can use anyone, when you sincerely seek Him first.
You are the one that believes the bibles assumptions of creation which has nothing to do with creation. My assumptions are as concrete as your bible.
I guess it must mean christ is real since your father became a believer.
Ah, so God doesn't intervene free will unless we choose. But he can use anyone when he chooses as long as they ask him. So it's not intervening as long as they ask first. Makes perfect sense.
You only read the first few huh. Pick and choose just like your mind does with the bible.
Again your assumptions are quite frustrating. I never knew my dad. I stated my dad in-law. I seen the power of God has many lives including my own. The Creation account is bible truth and scientific fact(Answers in Genesis.org a one of many great sources). Your assumptions are your opinion that will change on any given whim. God's word lived before you and will live on after you and forever. You can believe that.
Scientific fact ? Where? Old stories you believe as true and divine?
You are as ignorant as an animal. Why do you have a human mind when you limit it to a book?
Let me guess you've never looked into Creation Science. Shocker!
You know when you start to insult people you come off like a troll.
If you want to have a serious discussion and want to be taken seriously don't resort to insults.
I agree the statement wasn't nice, is it not true?
If you limit your mind to a single book, what seperates the human mind from the animal mind?
You want continue to believe your a hyper-ape go ahead, but last I checked animals can't read.
BTw, you didn't answer my questions earlier.
Is fear to believe free will?
I stopped answering because I got tired of trying to decipher what you're saying.
"Is fear to believe free will?" I don't know what that means.
Are you suggesting that believing in free will is the same as fear? Or are you saying that I have to be afraid to believe in free will?
I just accidentally the whole thing! LOL
Is fear to believe the bible not contradictory to free will?
Fear contradicts free will if the belief is driven by fear.
I already discussed this earlier.
If you're so afraid of the bible, even while proclaiming it isn't true, then you still give it some merit.
If it's not true, then why are you afraid? That in itself is part of the free will we are given. You can choose to be afraid or not.
If it is true, then it begs the question why not believe?
And if you do believe and do what the Bible says there is no reason to fear. So if by believing, and through believing we are no longer afraid, then it is not a fear driven belief.
How can one believe and not be afraid yet still be driven by fear? It makes no sense.
You're arguing two different points and trying to intersect them.
We are not forced to believe and thus are not coerced into believing with fear.
How am I afraid of the bible? I think it is for ignorant dependent follower minds who wish to be no different than animals.
Funny, it was created to make you act human, yet it does the opposite by limiting your mind to a book.
Choose to be afraid or not? You are a complete circle to my point. You understand the point, you refuse to accept it.
Saying someone will go to hell for not believing is not free will. The bible says this. I don't believe the bible, why would I fear hell? Brilliant. Get this through your head.
So you have no fear of God or hell?
This is exactly what I've been trying to get you to see.
If it's not true then why be afraid?
You only have reason to fear if it is true and you don't believe.
There is no real way to physically prove it is true hence why people choose to 'believe' and have faith.
I'm not the one that is afraid of hell, you are. Is it that complicated? Hell is partly why you believe the bible.
But I'm not afraid of hell. And hell is not why Christians believe the Bible.
I've made my points. I've got nothing further to add that won't just be repeating myself.
Your bible is government, do you understand that?
Any grouped belief is government, do you understand that?
You have no points. Your belief is government based faith and interpretation.
Your script is rather repetitive and getting old.
I notice you didn't answer the questions. The answers aren't in your animal belief system.
I would hate to make you use individual thought!
Government = Grouped Belief, Bible = Grouped Belief, Bible = Government
It's nothing more than a belief though. It only governs me because I choose to obey it's rules. That's the free will.
I can choose not to obey and do whatever I want.
I can choose to be a Buddhist if I wanted, or even a scientologist.
If believing something means we are governed by it well, then I guess we're all governed by something because we all believe in something. In this regard atheism is no different then any other religion.
That's quite a fallacy you got going there.
And by the way government does not = group belief. There are many people in the current US government who do not believe the same thing, yet they are all part of the same body.
Rules contradict free will.
Not everyone has a set belief or non belief assumptive one.
Not everyone thinks in absolute terms.
You don't understand what I'm trying to say.
I just said that I choose to obey those rules. I choose.
Just as I can choose to not obey them.
Rules are everywhere. You can choose to adhere or not when you break the rules you face consequences, but you do have a choice! We already told you this. Man, you are a zealot.
Don't you have a choice in whether you follow a rule or not?
I will explain, but your blind faith will not allow you to see.
If there are rules and consequences, they effect the free will of the choice you will make if you are thinking about the rules and consequences.
If there were no rules or consequences for doing something bad, more people would do bad things. The rules and consequences intervened and contradicted the free will of the persons choice of decision.
Much like when you believers argue: You don't want to believe because you don't want to be held accountable for your actions.
Make sense or is faith still blinding?
Rules and consequences intervene the choice of the decision. If there were no rules, it would be free will.
My thoughts are individual. They don't come from others ignorant one. My belief is not scripted.
OMG you guys are amazing.
Does the government never make a final group decision? How do they make a final decision if they haven't came to a final group belief?
The bible is a great history and documentation of some of the beginnings of human history and nature.
If you read it with an inquisitive and open mind you can find insights into how we think and act both wonderfully and not so nice.
Religion is the failing establishment of mob rule. When you get enough like minded individuals together they have a tendency to act as an authority and draw their conclusions based on the collective.
Where it really goes horribly wrong is when you have this collective draw up doctrine and rules based on their interpretations of the bible and apply their authority to their ends. Sounds kind of like politics doesn't it?
It is amazing to me that men can try to tell The Creator what to do or who to have as friends or favored people.
When men will not even tolerate this attitude from other men.
I mean, can you imagine me trying to tell you who your friends should be or who to marry or where to live etc...?
GOD does NOT answer to men anymore then a parent answers to a child.
"Makes perfect sense, a divine being kills his own son to make a point to his own creation. Your believer minds amaze me."
this is why we cannot debate. the Romans killed the Son.
We are not even close. Orbital.
So a divine being let humans kill him to show he was weaker than humans to forgive our sins?
To show you what love is! WOW. It's worse than talking to a mormon.
uh huh. yeah, and Romes army did the job. then their government made a religion out of it.
I will answer any bible quote you guys want to throw at me just to prove my point.
"ignorant" X 100 posted by Marine.
but no government? No historical backing to this "theory".
ohh Nihilist marine.
its not a belief. Its a silly cry for attention that amuses me and many others.
now you just grouped your individual self with the "others".
How many times is everyone going to listen to the Marine tell them they are "dumb, stupid, ignorant, idiots, foolish etc..." ?
Marines are known for insulting people who disagree with them.
I would shine him on.
I think its fun.
It reminds me that there still are Perverbial Floaters in the Toilete of Life.
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