Judas - A True Saint?

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   shazwellynposted 15 years ago

   Destiny and Fate
   Judas of the apostles... the man that gave the identity of Christ to the Romans for exchange of silver and crucifixion. Was he evil or was it his destiny? There stood a dark shadow over the apostles. Christ identified that one amongst his deciples would betray him. It turned out to be Judas, Christ's favourite amongst his men. Jesus knew the last supper would be just that. He performed a symbolic representation as a seed sown to his life.. taking of the bread to mean his body and the drinking of the wine for his blood. Take me into yourself was the message here. Christ always taught through example and this was a way to teach us all. Even the death and re-birth of Christ in the resurrection might be seen as symbolic of reincarnation, perhaps? Christ knew what the example of his suffering would mean to people, even 2000 years hence. He bared the knowledge of his personal destiny and devine intervention made it happen - so did Judas, I believe. If it wasn't for Judas, the cycle may not have been completed. Judas was the catalyst to enable what was meant to be. Although tormented through the act of 'grassing' to the enemy, Judas gave Christ the opportunity to fulfill his destiny.... it had to be ... and through good intentions the crucifixion of one man was a lesson taught to many. Judas was so torchured by what he had to do, he committed suicide. He sacrificed the only man he truly loved! How tormented he must have felt! Sacrifice is the greatest gift a person can give to another and this is the lesson here - Judas knew this only too well! Only special people sacrifice their lives so as others can live, learn, develop and be free! He knew he would be the bad guy in the story. He knew he would be deemed as evil in his act, but his intention was good. We read of the accounts of the other deciples in their chapters and verse in the bible.... but is this not an account of how other's perceive the story? How can anyone know what was 'true' unless you are the person who commits the act and knows what lies in the heart? One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. The political and religious dynamics during that time put everyone, including the Roman's into a difficult position, there was no real choice but to crucify Christ. If it wasn't for Judas, Chris may not have fulfilled his destiny. The timing was as it should have been. He would never had shown the world that you suffer, learn, die and ressurect but for Judas. Judas made it possible. A much misunderstood scape-goat who copped the bad press because no one really 'got it' - the role of Judas in the grand scheme of things. It is with this hypothesis that I advocate Judas a Saint, a man who was torn apart at the destiny he had to follow. As the action, I believe, was with good intent, I suggest that if you believe in a Kingdom of Heaven, then you will find Judas at the right hand side of Christ!

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   tantrumposted 15 years ago

   You're so dramatic !
   How would you know what Judas felt ? He was the scapegoat.
   I should say he commited suicide when he realised Jesus treason.

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      shazwellynposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Yes, it is nice to have a bit of drama, to pep up a debate, don't you think?  Quite right, I don't know what Judas felt.  I don't know how you feel, either.  No one does, only you. We can only imagine by putting ourselves in his shoes, so to speak.  He was, though, as stated by both of us... the scapegoat...
      
      'A much misunderstood scape-goat who copped the bad press because no one really 'got it'

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         tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         I don't know either. I'm just giving my opinion. Why you believers are so touchy when an atheist speaks his mind off ? I wonder ....

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            shazwellynposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            Please don't get me wrong.  I value your opinion x

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               tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this

               

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   Pearldiverposted 15 years ago

   You will not be paid 30 pieces of silver by attempting to draw traffic from other hubbers to your hubs this way!
   (They are not the greatest clickers - whether religious or not!)
   
   Someone once stated; "Life is for living" - as such you create your own destiny and therefore fate.  It has nothing to do with anything else beyond your own actions in the life that you live!

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      shazwellynposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Sorry, you got the impression of this   It is just a subject that I feel passionate about and would like a response, it isn't about money.  I'm not here for the money.  The intention of hubbing, for me, is about expressing myself and feeling helpful to others.  I hope I might learn a few things x

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         Pearldiverposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         Being Passionate about things is great.... Perhaps the villian in your post was also passionate about the part that he played? Did you consider that point?

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            shazwellynposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            So, who do you think was the villain in this story?

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   subwaysadieposted 15 years ago

   You could read my hub called Judas if you'd like another opinion like yours.

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      shazwellynposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      I am sorry, my friend, your page wont load.  Perhaps you could copy and paste it here - would love to read it x

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   sandra rinckposted 15 years ago

   I love Judas. I bet he is the real "christ".

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   Cagsilposted 15 years ago

   Judas?
   
   A true saint?
   
   I highly doubt it.
   
   He was an unintelligent, uneducated, human. Who didn't know anything of his own existence, until he met Jesus Christ.
   
   And, even then, he never understood Jesus' message. And, that was because he was uneducated.
   
   If you think you know what Jesus Christ's message was? Please feel free to weigh in.
   
   I'm not wanting to change your belief, because that is not my intention.
   
   My intention is to get you to see with your own eyes, the context of Jesus Christ's word and the time he lived, so you can have a better understanding. The time he lived, and what humankind was going through, changes Jesus Christ's message to be unbelievebly astounding.
   
   Yes, I expect you to get defensive, but don't be.
   
   You have your understanding, by what you've learned. I respect that, but it is also my understanding that what you've learned, because of where you learned it, not how you learned, has lead you to believe something that is untrue.

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      shazwellynposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      But Jesus loved him and favoured him.  If he was soooo 'not' special, why was he one of the chosen followers?  Why was he soooo adored?  Surely, his story has taught many people?

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   Paragliderposted 15 years ago

   When you start believing in predestination it's time to put out the lights.

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      shazwellynposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Why? x

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         Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         Because it reduces us to pawns in someone else's game. Fortunately, there are sound scientific reasons for rejecting predestination.

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            tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            Predestination would turn our lives meaningless.

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               Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this

               exactly
               http://hubpages.com/hub/Predestination- … it-or-Nuts

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                  shazwellynposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                  Like the story. P.S. I love Johnathon Livingstone's 'seagull'.  Great to have a reminder there.

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               shazwellynposted 15 years agoin reply to this

               I get this.. but what if there is a path mapped out, even many, and we have the free will to choose. Therefore, each path chosen, leads to a different experience but the same outcome?  What if, therefore, that outcome was to completed learning experience?  Just a thought...

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      Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      This is where Agnostics and most Christians see eye to eye.  I wouldn't have replied to this thread other than your post Paraglider.

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         Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         Thanks Mike. Calvin has a lot to answer for, especially in and around the Scottish Hebrides!

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            Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            You got that right.  Paraglider you've probably been to Glasgow eh?  Do you ever remember a church called St. Mongo's there?  I've read that it is the only Catholic church in Scotland that survived Knox's Calvinist torch.

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               Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this

               St Mungo is the patron saint of Glasgow. I know the church quite well and have been in it a couple of times, though not for years.

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                  Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                  Cool.  My brother used to be a scrapper.  He was given the nickname of Mongo from that show Blazing Saddles by Mel Brooks, you know with that big guy called Mongo that dropped the horse with one punch.  I found the skit here.
                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_RKPGS2vwM
                  
                  Yeah right it's called St. Mungo's not Mongo's.  Well anyway my brother got a laugh when I told him about St. Mungo and St. Mungo's church in Glasgow.

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   Jeramiposted 15 years ago

   I have never considered Judas as being a saint any more or less than the other disciples. Judas has gotten a bum rap for doing what he did. It was destined that someone to do what he did. I think that Jesus instructed Judas to do it and he did. Jesus did say to Judas to go now and "do what you MUST do". Was that a command? Doesn't sound like he had much choice.

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      shazwellynposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      I cant help think this too x

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   Jeramiposted 15 years ago

   Too many believers consider the writings of the disciples as being "THE WORD OF GOD"!  They were just people that wrote letters to each other and to different groups of believers. Sometimes they were jealous of each other. They wrote from their own perspectives concerning what they learned from Jesus.
        Their understanding was not infallible.
        We also must remember that the church, that the Roman Empire constructed, picked and chose which writings were accepted into the canon and which ones were not.
        I am sure that there were a few that had they been accepted would have shed light on more than a few misconceptions. In Daniel 12:4, Daniel was told to put a seal on this prophesy,  when Jesus opened this seal(Rev.6:12, 6th)  prophesy was fulfilled. I would imagine that there were other prophets that were told to seal up a prophesy. They however were not included in the canon.  I believe ?

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      shazwellynposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Don't you think that all written accounts are only as good a the person that is writing them?  We all live in our own reality, afterall.  I think this rule can even be applied to historical perspectives - guess how things would look different if Hitler won the war!  He intended to eradicate old writings and rewrite history!
      
      Its a strange thought... but I cant help thinking that, maybe, we are all living a lie and nothing is really true at all!

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         Jeramiposted 15 years agoin reply to this

             Where there is smoke there is fire.  Underneath all of these interpretations is a truth. If we are looking for truth then we MUST uninterpreted every interpretation that we have been taught.  I have been doing that for over 10 years and am constantly amazed with what I thought I knew but didn't

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            shazwellynposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            You know, I have found that as well!  I find myself being very 'non committal' in opinions... i find I am 'always waiting to see'.  I am finding myself never taking anything for granted.  As a result, I don't 'look forward'.  I do 'plan' though, but always with the knowledge not to have an expectation.  I am living my life, like a bamboo - swaying with the wind and making changes when the conditions dictate.  What I can say on truth, my attitude is 'this is my truth, always subject to change, tell me yours'
            
            My concept of the story of Judas, therefore, is a concept.  I can not possibly know 'the truth', for this is his truth - that supposing this story happened at all.  As you said, 'where there is smoke', there seems to be a grain of truth in every story/historical perceptive - the difficulties come in peeling back the layers.

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               Jeramiposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                 When I was a child,My grandfather taught me to look for the simple answers before clouding the issue with complicated possibilities. CK the gas before taking the car to the shop etc. Shake the leaves off of it so you can see what the limb looks like. I think that the religious issue all comes down to creation? or evolution? and then what was before that? Why not a combination of both? God said "Let it be" ... bang there it was!!!  and life evolved from there. The sons of God made babies with the daughters of man changing DNA (Missing link). because of my life experiences I choose to believe that a higher "life" form (God,spirit) did appear to Abraham.
               And then man began trying to explain it all.

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    TMinutposted 15 years ago

    There's also scientific indications that predestination in some form IS true, like the way our brains start performing an action before we decide to do something - we "choose" after our brain already revved up and started it.
    
    The account in the Bible sounds to me like Judas was the one given the job to do that nobody wanted to do. I don't think we have enough information to know.

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       Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       That's not predestination. It's more like instinct.

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          shazwellynposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          Check out another one of my postings....
          
          http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/25067#post458908
          
          The question is how many combinations does it take to make 4.  4, therefore is the answer (or destination, or DESTINY), but there are many different ways to arrive there.  All the people that contributed, found a path themselves.  They used free will to arrive at the destiny.
          
          Have I made a good point?

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       Jeramiposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            We know that DNA has major control over the physical body.  We do not know exactly how much control our conscious mind actually has over our subconscious mind. Chemical balances in the brain makes us do things that we would never conciously decide to do. When it is all said and done
                     Ya just don't know what ya don't know
                     Ya know ???

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          shazwellynposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          I like you!

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    Jeramiposted 15 years ago

    I think that you are onto something about who wins the war writes history and gets to establish what the majority believes as TRUTH. It gets even crazier when we consider that after all is written everyone gets to interpret those facts (??)
        For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction
        For every view there is an equal and opposite view ?
        This is the problem. ONE truth can have 1000 different perceived interpretations, none of which may be truth.

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       shazwellynposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Hurray!  Absolutely, my friend!

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    Nia Lposted 15 years ago

    For Christians: http://hubpages.com/t/dd45e  might provide some answers hopefully.

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       Rick Marlowposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       you`re answering all forums with this.how about real answers.not your hub mix of hodgepodge.

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    TMinutposted 15 years ago

    paraglider, that part i wrote about our brains starting an action before we decide to do something isn't about instinct. During experiments, researchers were able to see on their brain images which hand a person was going to move before the person decided which to move. That's nothing to do with instinct. It was an investigation into free will (Libet's experiments long ago and the latest by other researchers on Sept 29, 2009). People are still trying to interpret the findings because they indicate too much of a reliance on physical processes as opposed to making our own free will decisions.
    
    I don't see that this indicates humans are totally prewired for every thought, move, and decision since paying specific attention to which choice we make can change the outcome. It's only when we don't specifically, mindfully live our lives that we run on automatic. That's why so many religions and philosophies encourage (not the right word) mindful living.

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       shazwellynposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Some good research here, mate x

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       shazwellynposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Check out another one of my postings....
       
       http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/25067#post458908
       
       The question is how many combinations does it take to make 4.  4, therefore is the answer (or destination, or DESTINY), but there are many different ways to arrive there.  All the people that contributed, found a path themselves.  They used free will to arrive at the destiny.
       
       Have I made a good point?

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    shazwellynposted 15 years ago

    Check out another one of my postings....
    
    http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/25067#post458908
    
    The question is how many combinations does it take to make 4.  4, therefore is the answer (or destination, or DESTINY), but there are many different ways to arrive there.  All the people that contributed, found a path themselves.  They used free will to arrive at the destiny.
    
    Have I made a good point?

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