Are religion and science two complementary parts of our knowledge?
Have to add my two pennys worth to this one
There is a HUGE difference between religion and spirituality.
Kirlian photography proves nothing - test have shown that images shot in a vacuum show no "aura" - the imaging picks up minute amounts electricity interacting with gases in the air surrounding an object. Any object - a stone has as much "aura" as a human being.Mark, what kind of people do you hang around that don't have any more of an aura than a stone?!
I thought you were a martial artist? You have not experienced chi?
Just because the scientific human mind has not built a machine that "proves" the electromagnetic field, does not mean it does not exist. Scientists use the electromagnetic field concept all the time. Haven't they proved that? Where is our science forum that will draw people with the most updated research news?I never said it didn't exist and yes, I have experienced many invisible forms of energy, including chi - which I have spent years cultivating and developing.
I also spend ten years as a massage therapist, working on a lot of chronically sick people and learning to manipulate their energy fields (which are different to Ki)
What I said was - Kirlian photography proves nothing - test have shown that images shot in a vacuum show no "aura" - the imaging picks up minute amounts electricity interacting with gases in the air surrounding an object. Any object - a stone has as much "aura" as a human being.
Having been to the Vatican, I have a hard time accepting that religion is any sort of barrier to unfettered materialism.
Unlikely - I have recently been offered a job - setting up and running this blog:
Luxury Property Blog
So, most of my online time will be spend working on this from now on - I am actually very excited about this - It's a "proper" job with wages and everything I will be doing a few hubs - specifically one about how my exposure on hubpages helped me to get this job.
I only stopped in today to let everyone know about the blogger that is stealing hubs and then couldn't resist this discussion
K, my 2 cents
First I would distinguish between church and religion. And put church out of equation. At least this is what I meant in my original post that became the basis for this thread.
Now, I see those two as complementary methods of learning the World inside and around me. Science uses logic and half of my brain, religion uses intuition or "direct experience", and another half. I wanna have them in balance, and I believe this is how it works most efficiently, and this is how it meant to workHave to put in my 2 cents. I am an advocate of science and religion. I have a very scientific mind but I am also devoutly religious. One thing that always bothers me when a debate between these two topics is started is that the scientific camp won't admit that faith is also a part of science.
Yes, science is based on empirical evidence, however, how that evidence is interpreted changes completely how you choose to view the world.
Example: Einsteins' theories contradict Newtons' theories. Quantum Physics contradicts Einstein. Niels Bohr who developed the Copenhagen theory states: "Furthermore, it is meaningless to ascribe any properties or even existence to anything that has not been measured. Bohr is basically saying that nothing is real unless it is observed."
Einstein spent the rest of his life trying to disprove the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle.
And these are just the heavy hitters of science. There are many, many more examples of scientists having opposing theories while working with the same "empirical evidence".
Each scientist continues their work why?? Because they have "faith" that their view is the correct one. It is only their "belief" that compels them to continue. This "belief" is no different to the "belief" that religious people have towards their theory of the universe.
So while scientific "belief" may have numbers and "empirical evidence" attached, given the radically different viewpoints that can be formed out of those numbers and evidence shows that science is not so far removed from religion than people think.
I mean, have you ever seen the heated debates between two scientists working in the same field with the same data and positing opposing theories?
Interpretation and belief in their personal view of the universe is what drives them. Isn't this also what drives religious people?
Thanks for the thought and link
Thank you both. I won't be gone completely - hubpages has a great community and I will certainly be around.
Pretty much agree
I would set accents differently though. Something like: Evolution is a method God uses to create all living creatures, including humans...
Oh, and I don't think 7 days were meant to be earthly days. They might have been what we call eon today...
Well, there is clear and demonstrable evidence that dinosaurs existed, but.......
To me it was a paradigm shift. Seeing clear and demonstrable evidence that "God" existed, I mean. Of course I couldn't prove it in the scientific way you mean with material facts and figures, but I accepted it and now just try to expound upon it...it is feeling and sharing with others...this sense of energy and knowing...some could parallel it with loving another person...it is a totally subjective and personally unique awareness of sense of self being a part of something bigger than self, yet feeling connection and One with that Big energy !!!
Why are people so stuck in not accepting that this "Love" exists? For me, it has been a gradual process of acceptance. I was very scientifically oriented in the beginning as well. I wanted proof and I kept getting it...not all of course in material facts, but in experiences that I can not refute as my crazy imagination. Believe me, I did my damndest to not accept these awarenesses, I was quite stubborn and still am about some things...we all know people like that !!??
There are so many factors that contribute to the block to "believing" ...spiritual, mental, emotional/psychological and physical as well as material. But we got to start somewhere and just keep plugging away at it...well I do anyway...for my own reasons...as others have their own.Speaking of Mark
.....I thought of a funny (I think anyway) blessing for you yesterday, about your leaving hubpages, or away more anyway. Here goes...
May you always get the Vulcan Mind meld as needed, and may all your Tribbles be sterile.
(remember that episode of the Tribbles)....talk about decades ago...!!?? I got quite a chuckle anyway when the thought crossed my mind.LOL - thanks.
I am always interested in learning new stuff. BUT - I a have great faith in the non-existence of a God.
And I know your prayer cannot work - if it did, there would be no torture, suffering etc.
I have great respect for what others choose to believe - If they don't try and get me to believe it too.
And that's the crux for me - if you are secure in your beliefs, you will not see the need to inflict them on all around.
It's a bit like politicians - my belief is that anyone who WANTS to be President/Prime Minister etc - should be automatically disbarred from entering the race in the first place.That should be litmus test right there, if you want the job, you are automatically disqualified.
P.S. Mark, I will be praying for you.Why do I need praying for ?
I didn't say you needed it.
But, if you have to ask, then I'm sure you do.I can see I'm not going to win this one
I think both science and religion sprout from man's thirst for answers. Thinking members of the human species have never been that good at just going about our business like animals and not wondering what governs the universe and existence, and guessing at our purpose here. Our frontal lobe is too large.
Religion has filled the void that science hasn't been able to answer, to give comfort to people scared of the unknown. The problem is when religion becomes too powerful and stultifies science's work.To the notion that belief in God is noncognitive, I would point out that the very presence of an ability to think noncognitively may imply that there is some value in such a method of thinking. In fact, I've noticed recently that logic is rather flawed. One can have a completely sound logical argument that is entirely wrong. If I build a box with absolutely no gaps in it--an all around perfect box--and claim that it is the only box I will ever need, I am fooling myself. Likewise, logical, cognitive, scientific principles can be completely enclosed leaving no questions to be asked but be completely wrong. I think that our ability to "think outside the box" is what allows us to move on to new findings. It is necessary to science that we sometimes think unscientifically, using intuition and gut feeling. Let us not forget Aritotle's geo-centric theory of the universe. People always associate this with the medieval church, but it originated from Aristotle, who was a very logical, and possibly atheistic man. His theories had no gaps in them, and therefore had no room to adjust where they were wrong.
We are having this argument, despite "clear and demonstrable evidence," because of the epistemic distance. This theory states that because God wanted man to have free will and therefore be truly seperate from him, he had to give them the option to deny him. Therefore, though his presence is evident in the universe, it is not overwhelming. Should God descend from Heaven and say, "Hey, Atheists, I do exist," then they would have no option but to believe. Free will would be compromised. Or so the theory goes...
I would like to take this time to ask that people please forgive what I'm sure are some ridiculous spelling mistakes. I'm traumatized from this paper, and the notion of opening Word to check my posts is revolting to me.
He's one of mine, too!
- sandra rinckposted 16 years ago
0 - RFoxposted 16 years ago0
Okay so I also do not believe in God as a figurehead. Most of you know that by now. But on the question of science and religion, they are closer than people want to acknowledge. This is my opinion and what I was trying to convey, as this thread was about religion and science being complementary.
Both scientists and religious people have 'faith' in their separate theories of the universe.
Scientists work to prove their theory.
Many religious people simply accept their theory.
Other religious people work to prove their theory, however, the evidence is purely anecdotal.
Many Doctors use anecdotal evidence all the time to treat patients. Not all medicine has been double blind tested.
We have 'faith' in our Doctors and scientists even when they have been proven wrong on many occasions.
Look at the history of science. Sound scientific theory has been refuted time and again as our knowledge changes.
No-one can prove or know exactly how the universe was created. It is all circumspect. At this point it is all belief. While evolution may have been proven by DNA, science still can't say what sparked life.
It is unknown.
Scientists and Religious people both have a burning desire to know the mechanics of the universe.
For Thom: Your argument is that proof is needed. Hard, cold numbers. However, in the history of science those hard, cold numbers have been proven wrong time and time again as new theories and new scientific minds come together.
However, even though those numbers have been proven wrong you continue to have unshakable faith in science and the human minds' capacity to provide evidence.
I'm sorry but I don't see the difference when it comes to the faith side of things.
Religious people believe in things that so far can't be proven or disproven.
All scientific people at one point have believed in something that has been proven to be wrong.
The definition of faith is: Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
Science contains faith just as religion does. That's all I'm saying. In this there is similarity. This is a little difficult to understand, so I am going to break it up and answer each point as I go
You can change your consciousness all you like - it is not going to make anything outside your existence change. And I am not perpetuating "not-Love" when I say prayer doesn't work - which was a different discussion thread by the way
So some people, who believe in God, pray for destructive, negative things? If there was a God, I would be hard pushed to be arrogant enough to suggest I had any idea what was the right or wrong way to go about creating God's Energy.
Agree with which part? Evil is real, and it's appearance does have power. Just think back to films you have seen of the liberation of concentration camps after the second world war, or when the mass graves were dug up in Rwanda.
I am not sure I can reply to this without being offensive, but I will try Praying in groups does not multiply the effect - 1,000000000000 times zero still equals zero.
This is a complete cop-out and makes absolutely zero difference to anyone any where. I am reminded of a saying - "Prayer - It makes doing nothing look like you are doing something." Healing your own damaged consciousness help no one but yourself. And you have to ask why it is broken in the first place?
I agree - it's an extremely valuable way of learning.
I have no problem with that and completely understand. Even discussing anonymously can be disruptive - especially when you are arguing with some one as obstinate as I am
I see what you are trying to say - but you are getting things a little mixed up as far as I am concerned. But this is a good place to test and refine your arguments
A few issues I will take up:
Prayer and Religion are not the same thing.
Religions are responsible for most wars, miscarriages of justice, deaths, murders, mayhem and pollution of the collective psyche than almost any other organization.
And throughout the ages, people have prayed - in one form or another - how much difference has it made? - ZERO.
Religion has never taught us anything - It's not quantifiable and relies solely on faith. Nothing else. Faith in something that patently doesn't exist. How can that make sense?Probably not a great idea to re-quote everything like this
But:
I do believe that I am a part of something, but I am as significant as a grain of sand on the beach.
Yes, I think people who say they know the correct way of using God's energy are arrogant.
Faith/belief changes nothing except your own perceptions.
Yes - I have PROOF that 1000000000 times zero is still zero. Show me a for instance of prayer making a difference that is measurable.
We agree - religions have taught us a negative. How not to do something.
Yes, I think that was all of them.Taking responsibility for my own actions and saying I know the correct way to use "God's energy" are not the same thing.
Exactly - means nothing to anyone but you.
Any standards other than someone saying, "I believe - therefore it is so."
I never said I didn't interact with the source if by that you mean the environment I exsist in. And I do not need your belief - I am sure of myself and my part in the whole picture. A grain of sand on the beach.
Don't kid yourself. Why do you think the creationist are so dead set against science. There can be only one....No, no vacuum cleaners were harmed in the making of this discussion
The purpose of science is to explain the way things work.
Obviously, this is going to clash with the whole idea of a supreme being making the world.
That's not science's primary goal though - but it's the reason scientists, witches and heretics were burned at the stake in the past.That's what I was trying to tell them a couple of pages before
They prefer to fight, though I wish this were true for all discussions on the subject, online or across picket lines. It's too bad everybody is not as nice as all the hubbers (the drama over the last few weeks excepted, of course).
I agree
I know I'm sounding one sided, I think Sandra cleared my thoughts.
Thanks.
- helenathegreatposted 16 years ago0
I just read pretty much all of this thread (whew!), and I just want to say that all of my scientific knowledge only confirms my belief that there is a God.
(See: sync theory.) Misha - No fighting, just discussion.
I am quite prepared to accept the bible as metaphorical - In which case, I am all over it - I think it's one of the best books ever written,
But there are those who take the bible as a LITERAL TRUTH.
And science is always going to be a threat to those people - see Spanish Inquisition.
There can be only one.Mark, sorry for leaving so abruptly earlier...I looked up and it was past noon and I had to get some work done for the day. I would like to say thank you for sharing your views with me, it was a pleasure to converse on what can be a difficult subject for a lot of people. The problem is there is no end ...!!!
One question brings up another and on and on it could go...for me anyway.
- RFoxposted 16 years ago0
So I have an interesting observation to make on the science and religion discussion.
People seem to equate the word religion to Christian religion only.
Every time a comment is put forth about 'religion' it is followed by a statement either 'for the existence of God' or 'against the existence of God'.
However there are literally millions of us who are devoutly religious who do not follow God.
Estimates just of Buddhists alone are about 310-350 million people worldwide. Some even estimate up to 500 million followers worldwide.
And for the record we embrace science. We embrace the scientific philosophies of experiment and logical probing. We have done proper scientific experiments on the effects of meditation. It is true that a lot of our core beliefs are based on anecdotal evidence only but some of our philosophies are mirrored by experiments in physics particularly quantum physics. The Dalai Lama in fact is involved in the Emory-Tibet Science Initiative. To bring science and religion together in studies BECAUSE they are so complementary in Buddhist philosophies.
So if we're going to talk about science and religion then shouldn't we encompass the whole thing.
Because to be brutally honest it is Christians and Scientists that seem to argue about the universe and to stubbornly refuse to listen to one another.
So saying that all religious people feel that way is not accurate at all. I say this with no hard feelings or wish to argue. I know it's tough to gauge emotion in written statements.
It's just an observation from reading the religion forum threads.I agree whole heartedly on the full scope of people on the planet...but isn't it just that right now on this thread it (was..) is mostly Christian based people interacting? Thank you for speaking up. But isn't it harder for someone to speak about a position of religion they know next to nothing about and so only speak from their own experience.
I have tried for years to consider as many other religions, spiritualities, philosophies, belief systems, etc...to try and be able to discuss matters with others of any belief.
I grew up in a very low key Christian American home where religion and psychology where big no no subjects...I find it now, a great privilege to be able to discuss the subjects with others as they have become such a big part of my life through the years. Bringing science and religion together has been the greatest door opener for me in discussions. I finally feel as if I have something I can relate to and share with others. I completely agree everyone can only speak from personal knowledge. However, just about everyone is aware of the diversity of religion out there, yet just about everyone seems to use the word 'religion' to imply Christian religion. My personal opinion is that this is not a good
thing to do. Blanket statements about what religious people think or believe aren't helpful. That is why I mentioned it. To bring awareness to this fact.
I understand that the majority of Hubbers here seem to be either Christian, Agnostic or Atheist, but I don't believe that statements such as:
"I don't think most religious people get this idea, but there is no conflict between the two; or, rather, there shouldn't be."
is helpful or accurate. Because I don't see a conflict between religion and science. And neither do a lot of other religious people. As I said it's just an observation.
Yes, I will get that for you. Gotta run now though.
This is an excellent point.
I have always wondered why people become defensive and antagonistic in regards to religious discussions if they truly believe in their doctrine.
It is fun and interesting to debate from different viewpoints in an intellectual fashion.
So I have to agree. I feel if someone is desperately trying to convert everyone around them and becomes upset if someone challenges this belief then it is because they are insecure in their faith. If you truly believe in your path then it doesn't matter what other people think.
One path is not right for everyone. People are diverse and so religions need to be diverse. What speaks to one person will not necessarily speak to someone else. And taking the scientific path is just as valid as a religious path. And if you believe that a non-believer is going to hell why should that matter to you?
My Catholic friends laugh about the fact that I can't go to heaven according to their faith because I'm not baptized. But because they have true faith they could less if I'm a "heathen".
And I have read and studied the Bible and I don't remember anything about actively converting people being a mandate to getting into heaven. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't remember it. I feel that this pushing of religion onto people who aren't interested is what gives religion a bad name. I feel that this is what causes dialogue between faiths and between the scientific community to break down.
Imagine what we could accomplish if we worked together.
This is my personal opinion.
- RFoxposted 16 years ago0
SparklingJewel: And this is the curriculum for the Buddhist monks/nuns thanks to Emory University:
Curriculum
Our pedagogical approach is grounded in the principles of problem based learning, collaborative learning, active learning, and experiential learning. Our science curriculum will include many opportunities for dialogue and discussion, demonstrations, experiments, and field work. Each year, a four week session led initially by Emory science faculty will be augmented throughout the remainder of the year with an onsite science educator, thereby ensuring continuity.
The Science Curriculum for Tibetan Monastics is integrated across all of the scientific disciplines and will focus on building foundational skills and conceptual understanding as well as introducing advanced level concepts and discoveries of modern science. In accordance with His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s recommendations, the three overarching topics are: Cosmology, Life Sciences, and Neuro/Cognitive Science. Each topic will be initiated through compelling questions and problems or discoveries that will be of direct interest to the students. This strategy will anchor subsequent discussions and maintain interest levels. In all the topics, mathematics will be introduced when needed and in an appropriate scientific contexts. Historical accounts will provide a developmental perspective when appropriate.
ETSI’s goals are aligned with The Dalai Lama’s articulation of two levels of competency. A novice level graduate of the program would have a general conceptual understanding of science and an expert level graduate would be able to participate and contribute to scientific experimentation and discourse.
Emory-Tibet Science Initiative’s comprehensive science curriculum will officially commence in 2008. A brief outline of the first year curriculum is presented below.
A: Philosophy of Science
Philosophical Background
We will explore the similarities and differences between Ancient Greek philosophy and Buddhism that are relevant to science..
Rules of logical inference
We will introduce ideas of probability and reasoning about probabilistic phenomena. To build mathematical skills, we will discuss mathematical formalization, representation of values by variables, quantitative relationships, and measurements. Early sessions will demonstrate the scientific method and the rules of scientific debate.
Logic of hypothesis generation and theory testing
Here we will consider the nature of Experimentation and how the best explanation is chosen.
B: Cosmology
The Cosmology unit will begin with a description of the Universe, visit the development of ancient astronomy, the solar system and talk about the formation of the earth. Leading into the laws of electromagnetism and the contributions of Coulomb-Ampére-Faraday-Maxwell electromagnetism, we will explore astrospectroscopy and lead into the current century. Quantum physics, polarization, Einstein’s contributions will be some of the topics that we will visit towards the end of the unit. The unit will most likely conclude with a discussion of the Big Bang Theory and a debate about Buddhist and scientific world views.
C: Life Sciences
Biology faculty will initiate this unit with the notion of time to lead into Darwin, Lyell and a discussion of geological time. The unit will include a discussion Darwin’s contributions, adaptation, survival of the fittest, natural selection, diversity and conservation. A closer look at the evolution of humans will consider social tension, Leakey’s contributions, discovery of human ancestors, the evolution of the bran, the nature of behaviors and lead into a discussion of genes and genetics. Darwin's Expression of Emotions in Man and Animals
D: Neuro/Cognitive Sciences
The neuro/cognitive sciences unit will introduce the brain as the locus of the mind, as the center of mental life, its architecture, the functional specificity of the cortex and subcortical areas, and discuss the cooperative brain and its relation to complex mental functions. In the next section, this unit will discuss affective and social neuroscience and memory. Topics will include fear, aggression, addiction, memory etc. In the last section of this unit, faculty will introduce concepts of perception and action and mind-body interactions, sensory transduction, volitional movements and reflexes, brain maps, hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis and stress.
Religion can embrace science.
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