I have tried to avoid the Christians vs. Atheist battle that seems to rage across these forums. I have tried not because I am afraid to voice my opinion but simply because it will never end. As long is there is one Christian left in the forums or one Atheist left the argument will continue.
The Bible while it existence is undeniable is it reliable?
It is not that I am saying it is wrong, I believe that if you cannot get 10 people in the same room to agree on the meaning of a story they had all just been told how in the world do you expect a book that has been translated numerous times over the centuries to reflect the original text.
Christianity itself is the best argument to support my belief. Under the umbrella of Christianity several hundred different organizations teach that failure to believe their way will end in eternal damnation yet they do not all teach, believe or practice the same. They each take the portions of the Bible that suit them and declare this to be the Word of God.
The Bible while eloquently written was written in a time and place where any more than the most basics of science and technology where unheard of. We have evolved from that. Evolution is a fact of life again proven my Christianity. All you good Christians out there using your computers, microwaves, and cars are proof that evolution needs to exist. Without evolution you would still be riding donkeys and giving birth to your children in stables instead of hospitals. Right?
Hmm make a good point, although you're referring to advancement rather than evolution here I think. Evolution would imply direct changes to us alone, advancement being our discoveries and such Although evolution does have a little merit here.
So if you try to avoid forums like this, then explain why you just started one? Maybe, you should have posted this belief in evolution into the science forum, so Christians and Atheists would not feel compelled to banter. Just thinking out loud.
Why is everything Christians vs. something.......
My son, who is 14 is an Atheist. I'm a Christian. He is firm in his stance, or lack of belief. I am firm into believing in my belief.
I not against my son. I not verses my son.
Some Christians are not against Atheism. Some Christians are not verses anything. Putting into context like this makes us sound like enemies. In which we are not. My son is not my enemy because he is an Atheist. Nor am I because I'm a Christian. It would be nice to see words like: Christians COMPARED to Atheists. That way maybe we all would be more adapt to discuss our rational differences in a more appropriate manner. Again, just thinking out loud.
Many condescending comments made by a few loud christians are likely to share the blame with the condescending loud mouthed atheists. The noise of the few can taint the impression of the whole group in the eyes of 'the other side' or 'outsiders'. If more christians made comments with a level of acceptance and respect for different beliefs, like your comment here it might just create a more positive impression for others It is nice to see someone with an idea that whatever your belief it should be respected
How can one respect the concept christianity when, historically, it has been the cause of so much pain and suffering, death and destruction?...or, for that matter, people who claim to be members of such a deadly cult?
Is it possible that the "concept" of Christianity was sound, but that its enactment has been poor?
Pls tell what has been "sound" about the history of the christian cult?
Maybe, I'm not understanding your use of the word "sound?"
Sorry it's taken so long to respond: Sometimes I find it difficult to keep up with the threads of conversations...and I'm multi-tasking.
Anyway, I probably didn't communicate myself very well. I don't suppose "history" can be said to be sound or unsound, history is history.
What I am trying to communicate is that perhaps the ideas that Christianity was originally based upon (i.e., the original teachings of Jesus) were sound when they were first introduced to the early followers of Christ.
But, later the actions, interpretations, political motivation, destruction, etc. of other *humans* has twisted the original message and used it wrongly.
NP Spider: :-)
Man is the result of the vagarious processes of natural selection. he is, genetically, earth's prime predator.
Before "jesus," man was involved in murder, death and destruction. During the years jesus alledgedly existed, the same was happening...it continues today.
it seems that regardless of the wonderfully magnanimous and altruistic characteristics we can engender, we still create and manufacture more sophisticated methods to end human life without compunction while giving "lip service" to a belief in an imagined, loving and caring supernatural divinity.
Every nation that has ever been involved in "war" has asked "god" to be with them.
So it matters not what people claim the words of this jesus are/were, they act and react in exact opposition.
Thanks for your response.
Well by making a distinction between concepts/ideas (intangible) And flesh and blood people. Look long enough and you will find every 'group' of people at some point in history were responsible for some form of suffering death and destruction. I also do not blame those alive today for acts committed in the distant past just as I would not want to be held responsible for something like slavery just because my skin is white. Until I find that an individual in front of me is responsible for some suffering or death or destruction I do not hold them responsible for things they personally did not do, it makes it easy to respect people if you take them on an individual basis.
The dark ages lasted from about 500ad to about 1500ad...that is 1000 yrs of horrid, disgustingly deadly years of unimaginable death, pain and destruction by the roman catholic (christian) church.
Alledged christians today want to be associated to that kind of bestiality? Why?
I can only attribute that to abject ignorance. They are not thoughtfully involved. They follow in primitive manner what others, just as ignorant, teach them.
All cult activity is contrary to nature! Christianity is a cult. All religion is "cult" by definition.
It sure is a good thing those people from the dark ages are not alive now, they would have a lot to answer for! As would anyone contributing to any of the evils through history who are alive today. I do not defend the actions and decisions of those long dead people and understand that given the chance most people alive today would make the same mistakes. I am not a christian or catholic or anything in particular but I have met good people from all walks of life and their beliefs are a part of them being good people. From the virtuous atheist, the welcoming and accepting buddhist or the devout christian I have seen acts of kindness and compassion an 'Angle' could not match. People are responsible for their acts, not their religions or politics or whatever other group we come up with, if religion helps a person to take responsibility for their actions then I have no problem with it or any need to take it from them.
Well said! I second your comment, Kirstin!
It's actually fun to have a civil discussion with someone who thinks differently to me, I guess that is why I can respect different beliefs. Its fun that there are different ideas to keep me thinking
Would be a boring and very strange world if everyone had to think the way I do
Wouldn't that also make humanitarians, astrologist, scientist, mathematicians, cosmologist, doctors, biologist, democrats, liberals, conservatives, republicans, nationalist, socialist, communist, every religion, all opposing religions...
Are they cults, Ideologist, fascism...? Cults can be all of the above but they are not contrary to nature.
Astrology is a "science?"
Check the definition of cult.
Anything can be cultishly followed.(faddish devotion).
Nature demands that to survive, a species must adapt. Monotheism is and has been created by primitive thought and action.
It is contrary to the natural because it has, by the creation of the concept "sin," been and still is, the bane of human progress (example: stem cell research)and in many cases has been the perpetrator of premature death on a grand scale.
At this moment, there are billions of extant human "creatures" who are hopeing for the realization of the self fulfilling, biblical prophecy "armageddon."
This is working with nature?
The only way I can see THAT to be true is that a nuclear holocaust will reduce the numbers of all life on this planet to a more workable level.
It could be compared to a forest fire which burns the trees which block the nurturing rays of the sun. With the trees gone, new life at the ground level is regenerated.
There is no doubt that that will happen to the human creature if it is reduced en mass by "nuclear radiation."
Hi qwark, that's a classic new age belief, the world will conspire to remove all the 'spiritually defective' people and leave only a fresh start for the age of Aquarius to dawn upon.
Whereas the bible calls it the tribulation and the same thing happens except it's the new age believers that get mullah'd by the various disasters that deplete the worlds population.
In the New World Order the Illuminati power elite (who as we know come from alien life forces) plan to enforce eugenics to achieve the same thing....
Now who wants to be killed to bring about a cleaner planet?
I for one believe in the bible. It is a shame there is this debate between Christianity and atheism. The truth of the matter is God is a spirit and God fought Satan. And, thank goodness he won. God loves and Satan doesn't. That is all there is to it.
I for one believe in God and his son Jesus. Those who doesn't goes to Satan. Its also how we demonstrate Gods love. By expressing respect, compassion, etc for one another. If someone doesn't belief in God so be it. We Christians should not force the issue. Jesus showed compassion, respect, etc where ever he went. Demonstrating his fathers and mothers love. When he was murdered on the cross he wasn't angry with anyone, instead he forgave his murders. And asked his father to forgive them.
God also knows whats in our hearts. When we make mistakes and repent/come clean,. he forgives. If you were Babtized that makes you one step closer to God.
I would think that in this context the words advancement an evolution have the same meaning.
We have evolved into a race of better educated beings than those fine citizens who took pen in hand and wrote down the collection of documents that are now considered to be The Word of God.
How long did it take you to think that up?
This actually sounds like something Hitler would have said. Survival of the fittest, natural selection. Let's kill all who are not white and pureblooded.
SirDent, be reasonable. Just because someone might believe in a general survival of the fittest rule does not mean they want to kill everyone. Leave Hitler out of it.
So you are saying I should agree with you and that is the only reasonable way? Survival of the fittest means exactly what it says. It is the way of evolutionists. Hitler fits right into the same belief system as evolutionists as does the KKK, Skinheads, etc. . .
KKK are Christians. In disguise.
their religion is called Christian Identity, is a form of Christian fundamentalism
you can Google it.
Just more lies and that is the problem. Many don't believe they can be decieved, but yet they even preach the deceit.
Maybe you should read more about it.
I'm not going to lecture you. But some of the principal leaders of the KKK in the 60', that were found out, where regular church goers.
you can Google it. It's all in the net.
Satan himself is a regular churchgoer. That doesn't make him a christian any more than taking a science class in High School makes one a scientist. Your point is moot.
Here's some help
One more try. You are in the religion forum almost constantly. Does this make you a religionist?
No. It makes me an Atheists, that believes in proofs.
So you don't believe in proofs?
because you're a Christian ?
SirDent, respectively, you can't just say they are lies and leave it at that. Surely, there must be some reasons.
Let me offer some potentials.
Organizations such as the KKK may very well have members that would stand side by side with you in a church, for example, and may very well have similar beliefs to yours when it comes to god and scriptures.
Now, that's not saying those members don't "interpret" other areas of scriptures to suit their agenda. As you well know, many have taken to interpret the bible to suit their agendas. We do have televangelists, don't we?
There are, currently worldwide, more than 35,000 differing protestant sects. They ALL consider their interpretation of scripture to be RIGHT!
The catholic church adamantly claims their way is correct.
Talk about chaos and confusion?
It's ludicrous to the max.!
But equally they all agree 100% on the main tenets of their faith, the differences are in the non essentials mainly, though obviously some are also heretical antichrist cults yet claiming still the name of Christ.
I don't expect anybody who has never personally experienced the in filling of the Holy Spirit to understand or agree with Christ, and obviously if they are only able to accept scientifically provable facts, then they cannot be expected to understand spiritual events.
The basics of Christian belief are not disputed though, even between RCC and 'Protestant'believers.
But so what, you guys are only here to nit pick and try to ridicule believers, and that's a waste of time, all you do is strengthen believers faith, and prove that Satan is running scared of the end times imminent arrival.
See you all tomorrow, it's bedtime here now!
Here Tantrum, the my lifes anthem. It's called Your Wrong http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGaIaSJa630 give it a listen, I think you will agree.
Pls read Hitler's Mein Kampff.
In it he professed to be doing "gods" work.
You must study books other than your bible Dent.
A little education helps in keeping foot outa mouth..:-)
I know this is a bit off topic, but this is sort of a personal peeve. This is my personal opinion, and not written in sarcasm.
With all due respect, part of the reason people cannot properly translate things and communicate well is the slipshod respect they pay to language.
One of the reasons communication is SO difficult is that people seem to think they can assign arbitrary meanings to words and use them improperly, when there is *already* an agreed upon definition of the word that can be found in a dictionary (or textbook if one is using a particular field's jargon). If everyone would take a little more time learning to use the language well, we might all be just a *little* closer to actually understanding each other and the things people write.
I praise this comment. I know I must be guilty of this at times, but you know I do think that this does explain a lot. It is also part of the problem here on hubpages between many of us. There is definitely a common level of lack of respect on both sides, and a huge communicational language barrier. So now that some of us have recognized it, what can we do to help matters? I mean, I try to show everyone respect in their ideas. I do try. I do not bash someone for a personal belief. I do not mock people because they are a certain way. I try to ask straight forward questions to gather more knowledge, and I try to set an example of how to act in religious forums. But, sometimes it is really hard. Especially when some people insist on child's play. It is hard to turn away from insults, and having the final say.
However with that all said, if many of us Christians could start leading the way, maybe our Atheist brethren will be more open to a more respectful manner of commentary. I invite every Christian on these forums, to just zip up the hatefulness, anger, spite, and disrespectful banter. It only makes all of us look bad. And quite frankly, I'm tired of looking mean.
Again, I would just like to see more comparisons being used involving Christians and other stero-typical groups or parties. Putting us vs. something, just makes us look like they are our enemy. Again, I'll add my son is no enemy of mine. But his views compare alot different from mine.
Oh Whew! Gosh, I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels this way. Really, I couldn't have said it better--especially about respecting others, and NOT wanting to get sucked into the childish, hurtful stuff.
I would *really* love to have comepletely civil conversations. I *value* the atheists and their valid questions. Especially when they're asked with respect.
What kind of faith do I have, if I cannot explore it candidly? The atheists help me do this. But at the same time, so much of it dissolves into absolute silliness and stubbornness.
I try to be the first to admit that I am discussing a *belief* that I feel is *based on* fact, that I could be wrong, and that I feel strongly about it anyway. It's just the best I can do
"I would *really* love to have comepletely civil conversations. I *value* the atheists and their valid questions. Especially when they're asked with respect."
Things were pretty civilised and we had some decent debate for a few days when the worst offenders were banned for a while, but they are back now, and so are the stupidities...
Adding your 2 cents?
Why Christians are so mad at Atheists ?
It's so funny!
so I'm back with my stupidities !
thank you, my friend !
Not aimed at you T... but the reason I get riled about certain atheists is that they never actually answer any question, just pour scorn on any response posted and pretend to be so superior.
Sorry, but it was quite productive when the bans were in place, you are not a pain, you limit yourself to a few sometimes funny remarks and hardly ever comment except 'I don't believe in anything' when questioned, that despite the fact that you are obviously well read and quite defensive about some issues.
Others seem to have a real mission to try to keep telling people that what the vast majority of humanity find to be the truth they wish to believe is 'ridiculous' - well I have no problem with folk holding any opinion, after all I hold very strong opinions myself, but I don't go after folk just because I can't make them agree with me.
Anyhow, I hope you don't take offence!
I don't take offense, because I know who I am!
Anyway I don't like being called stupid.
and Atheists are not only the ones offending.
I've been called, ignorant ,stupid and petty today by two Christian hubbers.
I'm sure their God must be very proud of them ! If theirs is the God of the Bible, that is !
I would say poor you for being insulted but I think there is nothing 'poor' about you
God usually doesn't mind it when the truth is spoken.
You were and still are being petty. The truth hurts sometimes, however the one thing you haven't tried to do is the grown up thing and get over yourself. God or not, fact is fact. Why are bringing God into this? Thought you didn't believe?
It's so obvious you're after me !
why are you so childish ??
I'm not answering you anymore.
This is my last comment
You're on display to everybody , you're showing your true self.
The thing is....What's this all about ?
Fact is my friend that we are all human first, and therefore fallible, but as you don't believe in sin, what offence did they cause you? - they obviously cannot sin if sin does not exist?
I don't know who did the offending, I have not called anyone stupid, and posting stupidities does not imply stupidity on behalf of the poster, most of those who used stupidities are highly intelligent, that's why it's annoying that they duck serious civilised debate for LOLOLO and other sillies...
God is seldom proud of anyone here on earth, but He is forgiving.
I called it like it was and is, she or he is being very petty. But somehow their behavior, is the fault of ours. I wish my life could be run that way.
How could they cause any offense being so funny ?
I find it very upsetting anyway, coming from grown ups.
Looks like you just turn this forum into a threat. Nice work Tantrum. Typical. Now let us all do see how you'll blame this error on the Christians. I must read on.
I also respect the questions that are made by all ; those coming from Atheists seem to streighten my faith as they require my pondering an answer to their questions. And I can show another point of view that they hopefully can see some validity in.
Nope - No validity whatsoever. Sorry.
Your irrational justifications only work for yourself and merely amuse the atheists who stand in awe of the lengths believers will go to to justify their irrational beliefs.
I am sure that I am wrong AGAIN; but I think that A truth lies someplace between the Radical Atheist view and the standard Christian view.
And what exactly is "radical" about saying that I do not believe in ANY of your invisible gods? Yours or the other versions I see touted.
There is no such thing as "moderately" atheist. lol
"I sort of part-way semi don't believe."
I would not presume that Atheists are any more or less individual in their beliefs than any other theologies.
I feel that your own beliefs are individual to you. There are many many with similar beliefs but yours are yours.
I should have used the term "Extremest" as opposed to radical.
In my opinion an extremist Atheist pushes their beliefs upon everyone they can, as does an Extremist of believers in God.
I just do not believe that any truth can be found in any extreme. The truth lies someplace in between.
What is "extremist" about not wanting to hear your ridiculous beliefs every day? And by "you" I mean all believers.
Stop knocking on my door to offer me the good news.
Stop ringing the church bells every day
Stop the TV programs
Stop the advertisements all over the place
Stop pushing leaflets under my windshield
Stop trying to get the Bible back into schools
Stop all the google ads
Stop telling me there is a god
And I will never once again say "there is no god."
And I am not sure why you feel the need to use semantics. There is no halfway measure here. This is why your religion has caused so many wars. There cannot be a compromise. ever. Unto the final conflict - which is what you want is it not?
If that was true you could as easily say that there wasn't any weather today or that I do not have an attitude.
Or to say that I do not have an opinion.
I Have been fixin a leaky water line this am at home.
I now have to go to work and fix someone else's for a couple hours will check back later.
There are no atheists. There are no christians.
Atheism is the denial of god/gods.If this god thing cannot be defined, it cannot be known, it is incorporeal and it is but imagined as an abstract concept...there is no god thing to deny. One can deny the "concept" god.
Christians? what is a christian? Christianity is a religion derived from jesus christ.
How can one be a christian if one knows nothing about jesus christ?
There is hardly a mention of this jesus in Roman history.
The new testament is so corrupted by time and interpretation that it cannot be considered to be a credible book regarding the life of jesus.
It is a fact that jesus never spoke nor wrote a word of the new testament. It is comprised 100% of heresay.If one wishes to be called a christian, he is but a wannabee.
As a logician, historian. pragmatist and realist, how can atheism or christianity be taken seriously?... or for that matter, this god thing?
Dear quack, Try not to think so hard, you'll only confuse yourself.
I guess I'll say it again.
Though the, interpretation(s), may be in question, and the in-errancy of its translation, also. The fact remains. That any testable and provable aspect of the Bible that can be proven, is and has been proven.
So if all the provable aspects of the Bible are true. What reason do I have to doubt the accuracy ofthose parts I cannot prove?
And I believe the flaw of both Man and God, is arrogance.
So we should all be open to learning from one another. Even though we might hate what we learn. or that which the lesson infers.
Nonsense. It appear that you have not even read this book. Let us know when you have done so. Provable aspects? Like what? Pontius Pilate existed? Therefore Jesus bought back rotting corpses from the dead and walked on water?
Hi Mark! *waves* I hope you're having a nice day...and that goes for everyone else as well! It's snowing here, again. I have cabin fever.
Anyway...what an interesting discussion! This question niggles at me too. Here's what I think about when it pops into my mind:
Besides any articles of "faith", The Bible includes an accurate description of how to diagnose leprosy (at least by means of the tools of the day). It discusses dietary rules for optimum health (again in the context of the time it was written; unclean meats were *a LOT* more dangerous then, but still aren't great). In the book of Job the fact that earth is round and suspended on nothing is discussed. The book of Genesis does talk about the dinosaurs (but it's badly translated in the KJV), and it even (in a vague fashion) implies evolution within species. It has accurate descriptions of where stars were in the sky at certain times, and yes, as you mentioned, it is full of actual historical figures--these things are proven. And this is just off the top of my head: You can google "science and the Bible" and see all kinds of good, reasonable, rational research that supports many things that the Bible has to say. There are many books written about it (The Language of God is a *very* good one, IMO, but it's specifically about genetics).
Besides that there are also lists of rules that make for more civilized living, i.e., "Thou shalt not murder...steal...covet," "Turn the other cheek," etc. And yes, I know there's also very strange, violent stuff as well, I believe a lot of it has rational explanations (too long to go into here, I'm still having my coffee)(especially if you can attempt to, even if just as a thought experiment, put yourself in God's shoes *with a particular goal in mind*).
I think it's still a valid question (why not accept the whole Bible). Although there are plenty of other answers to it, attempting to say that the Bible has absolutely *nothing* true in it at all is going to the extreme. At the very least, whether it is understood as a spiritual document or not, it stands as an important historical piece of literature.
Miracles are interesting things: I'm a spiritual person, but I also consider myself a rational person. So let me leave you with this thought: While I believe that *if* there is a god who created this whole universe (which is totally amazing, although full of suffering), he/she/it can probably thoroughly manipulate that creation in all kinds of miraculous-looking ways, perhaps that is not what's going on here.
Think on this: for the people writing the books of the Bible, television would have been a miracle; cars, electric lights, medicine--all sorts of things would have been considered either miracle or magic. Perhaps "the raising of Lazarus" was something we could explain quite easily (if we had seen it), but that was totally miraculous at the time it happened. Perhaps Lazarus was in a deep coma; if I remember correctly Jesus described him as being "asleep" (though I have always considered that to be symbolic for death--I'm sort of musing now). Perhaps Jesus raised him from a coma and it was miraculous for those involved? Then the question becomes, "how was Jesus equipped with that knowledge..." which is a question for another thread.
Anyway, I'll be the first to admit that if there is a God, he/she/it is complex and beyond complete understanding...But I also don't think he/she/it is totally unknowable either. I think there's *something* to the Bible (but I think there's something special to the Baghavad Gita, the Tao Te Ching, Sefer Yetzirah, etc. etc.... It deserves to be read with a thoughtful, open mind. AND it takes a lot of work to read it properly.
hi Mark. Nice to see you too.
Aspects as in Mining, argricultural, etc. And other things such as locations and Cultures surrounding Israel and events in the texts, etc.
C'mon mark. Israel today bases alot of it's industrial and agracultural planning on knowledge gained in the bible. It is the way in which Israel got its footing back when they got their land back
The lil things, Mark. It is the lil things that matter when seeking the truth.
Hope you have been well, man.
The lil things?
Are you going to back your statements up with anything at all? Israel bases some of it's agricultural practices on the bible, therefore jeebus bought back people from the dead and walked on water?
I'm a Christian- I believe in God and I acknowledge that there are many factions under Christianity who choose parts of the Bible that suit them.
This is one of my problems with religion.
However I am NOT against atheism or any other form of belief. We are all humans and life is a learning curve and I believe beliefs/faith aside we are fundamentally the same.
What I do not appreciate is people attacking others on hubs branding them stupid for believing or not believing. When personal attacks come in that's when it becomes a case of one versus the other. Not on religion/beliefs but merely people defending themselves, when things get out of hand or too personal.
why not Christians should tolerate and love atheist and vice versa,
Hey Mark, do you think that it's us Christians vs. Atheism or vice versa? And if so, does that not naturally put us on opposing sides, or against one another??
However, if a forum was worded Christians Compared to Atheism, does it just separate out two entirely different groups of people in a more respectable manner?
I'm just curious. How is the weather in France? It's 3 degrees here in Missouri today. Bitterly cold for me....
Actually - I think it is Christians vs Every One Else including themselves and we are just the latest crop to stand up to them.
See any history book. (aboriginies in aus, American Indians, Indian, Muslims, etc etc etc) There is no room for compromise in their religion. None. Hence the wars for the last 1800 years.
I am just as - if not more - scared of the muslimists and see the tension rising here in France between the Catholics and the immigrant Muslims.
Unfortunately - if I have to pick sides - which it may well come to - I will pick the christianists because they are slightly (500 years) more advanced.
Sadly - there is no room for compromise in any monotheistic religion. How can there be? My god is omnipotent - therefore there is no room for yours.
Self fulfilling prophecy right there. A final conflict written into the first paragraph.
Wet and warm here in France
Maybe we should organize a soccer match between "Believers" and "non believers". (a lot of non believers are christians)
And we'd see who's best.
The funny thing is the good stuff people do can often go unnoticed by the masses. It does not make for interesting news or history. 'The country lived in peace and harmony' doesn't really make for a good history story, talking about how kids were considerate to there elders and communities came together to build houses and barns doesn't fill a history book so we focus on the crappy stuff. This is why I spend more time looking forward then backward
I absolutely agree with you.
Soccer matches, fill pages and pages.
Hmmm. How long has America or the UK gone without a war?
Both "Christian" nations.
Am I missing something here and there was a 300 year period of no war and I just missed it?
Looking forward and pretending the past never happened is how we repeat our mistakes - or allow the authorities to do so for us.
Looking forward is a necessary and (urgent) attitude.
It does not at all imply that you pretend that the past never happened.
We are the past and we carry it heavily. (Just look at these threads...)
our economic model nourishes itself from war by design.
Are we able to be looking forward and willing to change this ?
I think not.
No westerner is prepared to live under other standards than those dictated by mass consumption.
The past rules.
I just had a few cocktails...
Looking forward does not = pretending the past never happened, its just not living and wallowing in the past . Yes the US and UK have been having the normal warlike tendencies that comes with being a empire, to much power. They are not the only christian nations, the christian nations that don't relish getting into a good war are not likely to be a big deal really, sadly in the past 300 years there were two world wars where well pretty much everyone got involved, including non-christian nations. If it wasn't for those wars tho I cannot imagine many of the smaller christian nations would have any wars to boast of taking part in. Heck before WW1 america was very war shy, it took a direct attack to finally get america to join the war, it was a christian nation back then, possibly more christian even. These problems come about because of power and corruption, religion is used as a tool by a few people who will use the religion but don't believe it to push their agenda. Its the corrupt agendas to worry about not the common person believing in jesus, buddha, allah, the great spirit, the infinite and radiant is or whatever name people use to comfort themselves in their lonely lives.
War shy? What planet are you living on?
America was involved in numerous wars before WW1. And was busy wiping out the indigenous peoples.
The same planet as the british it would seem
They were very keen for the americans to actually join the war, not just offer behind the scenes help while trying to stay neutral. The US was shy enough that the brits got pretty darned worried about being occupied. The british blitz spirit actually gets some admiration out of me
And before that, someone else was busy wiping out indigenous people and on and on it goes until you go as far back as you can go...
Not in any particular order:
Africans, Sumerians, Egyptians, Gnostics, Christians, Catholics, Arabians, Romans, Persians, Muslims, Aborigines, Native American Indians, Eastern Indians, Jews, Mexicans, Filipinos...
To be honest with you. I personally find your opinions ideological and the say the least, primitive. You are stuck in the same rut as any other ideological perspective and one of its followers.
Most of the time you (at least lately) you post things suggesting that annihilation of most of the human population will fix everything, in some ways regarding humans as a species worthy of death under any circumstance and that alone seems to indicate that even you, yourself have your hand in an ideological religious (cult-ish) basket.
Though astrology is in of itself an observation of the Universe... Cosmos, you have likened into what seems to come across as a disregard for humans life altogether in hopes for a new beginning.
You are probably a decent individual but you are as you are and no different from someone who opposes your belief.
There are no real answers to the perplexed nature of life and because it is so, believing that (fill in the blank) goes against nature is pretty impossible.
That was terrific!
You were inspired to express yourself with "passion!"
My thoughts and expressions make your mind jump to attention and respond...honestly and forcefully.
Too many people live in a rut. They don't realize that our evolution is in full bloom and we are going to be effected by our thoughts and actions in ref. to our viability as a species.
I appreciate your responses because you are giving me food for thought and making my mind exercise to meet the demands of challenge.
Thank you! :-)
Makes as much sense for me to Say Goid did it all, as evolution and origin theories.
Proof is just as valid also.
There are alot of things in the bible which can be verified, which lend to the credibility of its authors and their knowledge. And those things have nothing to do with the super-natural realm.
So if I want to look at a text with as many unprovable aspects and lacking as much physical evidence as say?....
Evolution and its fossil record of maybe 2 to 3 percent of all life which has ever existed on the planet, and reach a conclusion so far out there as say,... "We are all a result of an innumerable amount of, and series of, cosmic and natural, (although unnatural in its very happenstance.), accidents.
I will entertain my delusions, as can you yours.
Note: I am currently working on a new, "Theory of Evolution". Which will forever change Evolutionary Biology and the understanding of the, "Origin of Life" and "Origin of Species".
While tying all neatly together.
Stayed tuned for more.
I will be holding my breath.
Sorry you are unable to see the difference between millions of measurable facts and..... nothing.
'zakly the same huh?
What has science got to do with your ridiculous beliefs?
And you don't ignore the past. You learn from it.
Lesson One... Kill your enemies, before they kill you.
Lesson Two... Win the War.
Note. Enemy combatants are not citizens, they are the enemy. No right to attorneys or rights. Military tribunal and executiuon. (After we try them fairly of course.)
Also peeps... "Unconditional Surrender", is the term. Not bribery and pay-offs.
It has more to do with your, (what'd you call 'em?), beliefs.
There is a complete fossil record?
Did I miss the factual evidence to prove any of the theories I mentioned.
And millions of measurable facts. WOW!!!
Thats a whole lotta facts.
Could you list those in alphabetical order please.
You need help carrying 'em. Don't hurt your back.
And America has done much good for the world in alot of our stances against others, and war. We should've never stopped finishing 'em.
Mark. Where do you live. What country.
Would you maybe be speaking nazi right now if not for us?
And its 2000 years of war since Christ, mark. The lil things.
Deary me. You must be very proud of yourself. And I do speak German thanks.
Tmason, everyone must be a Nazi when it comes to you. I'm silently starting to think that maybe you are the only Nazi living today. I know, "The HubPages Nazi!" Seriously though, what is it with you and the Nazi thing? I've been called a Islamic Nazi by you once already because I knew who Abraham was, and I know I'm not the only one you've called a Nazi..... and now here? So what's up with that?
Hey Mark, where did you go? I enjoyed reading your responses.... Guess you might get bored so its cool but I was enjoying it
KKK says that they are Christians.
I can say that I am anything.
I can sleep in the garage; that doesn't make me a car.
Proof is a strange concept to religionists. It must be the hardest word for them to deal with. Almost daily there is new proof of god on some TV show. OIl oozing out of walls, tears from the Madonna and on it goes as it has since religions began.
These hoaxes are made by people, they all get caught eventually.
In thousands of years, no one has any proof at all for any god, any action by a god, or any real miracles. They simply lie about it!
Religion requires faith. Nothing can be proved as there is no evidence at all, not one single piece of evidence.
Faith is OK. I have faith my car will start. I do not have faith that someone from a single old book who is psychopathic runs our lives. The whole story makes less and less sense as we learn to understand the human mind.
Yes it does for me. My car started the last 999 times, I am a motor engineer with 40 years experience, there is a good chance my evidence is reliable to a degree.
By definition there are 2 connotations of "faith."
One is based upon empirical proof i.e. I have faith that on flat ground the earth will meet my every step.
Religious faith which has it's foundation based 100% on "hope."
I cannot guide my life on "hope!"
That would be an act of absurdity.
You know I was reading this forum thread, and I thought the same thing.
I shall, though in 12 hours I will be attending the 'wake' of one of our street guys called Russell, who died December 21st from a heart attack, so it's a mixture of feeling sad and yet looking forward to the fun of celebrating his life with his other friends.
Russell was a wise man who had travelled much and liked to be free on the streets, about my age and made a crust playing guitar and begging.
It will not be a religious thing (we meet in a bar that allowed him to stay warm there most nights)as Russell was an atheist and so we would not insult his memory by trying to tag him or his friends with a religion they would not want.
But it will be fun I expect!
So what is in the hearts of the poor is not as good as what is in your heart? That is why you believe god punishes them all their short terrible lives?
You make me want to throw up!
That is not what I said. That is so wrong. And so unexceptible. I can't believe you just wrote that. Very disappointing.
(God loves all of us. We as humans needs to help our food banks,. Help our world we live in.) That is what I said.
Here is what you said.
"God also knows whats in our hearts. When we make mistakes and repent/come clean,. he forgives. If you were Babtized that makes you one step closer to God"
Not to hard to extrapolate that if one does not know about god, has not been baptized you are not forgiven. If you are forgiven there are benefits no?
So all the poor illiterate of the world do not have the advantage that you do?
God also loves everyone. That is not correct in the above quote. That also is not what I meant. You are very lame, unfortunately.
Being babtized is also important as well. Its sad that some do not know this. My heart goes out to them.
Your heart goes out to them? You do not seem to recognise that their prayers go unanswered until they die of starvation! How is your god loving?
He hurts too. And how do you know he doesn't care. You unfortunately are a all talk. Just to talk. And, twist what ever I say. This is lame.
Why don't you address the elephant in the room! An omnipotent god who has never done one single thing for anyone!
He made the earth,. God has done a great deal for us. He is amazing. You r sad.
Do you two TRY to be so rude and mean, or does it just come naturally?
I had to be away for a time and missed a good number of these postings but as I read through them I would like to respond to a few.
sneakorocksolid-You are really exhibiting some fantastic examples of Christian ethics by resorting to name calling and such.
IntimatEvolution-Why is everything Christians vs. something....... look at the trend of this post and nearly every other post in these forum that gain any momentum.
SirDent-Survival of the fittest is the natural order of things. Hitler and the others that you chose to use as examples all presumed to circumvent nature’s course by imposing their own set beliefs on natures order.
TheGlassSpider-Words are words. The dictionaries we use are packed full of words that do exist now and didn’t before, or not full of as the case maybe of words that used to be words and are not now. Dictionaries are no more or less accurate than the people who write them.
nikki1-Thankyou for trying to bring this back on track! And for the record I did not say I was either Christian or Atheist I only said that there are several inconsistencies in Christianity and for that reason I question the foundation it is built on.
For Everyone else I appreciate your thoughts
I know how that goes. Welcome back
I understand what you're saying; however, words are one of the main ways we communicate with one another. If the ways by which we communicate are *completely* arbitrary then no one can understand anyone else. If I say the word "table" people understand that I am talking about some sort of flat surface with legs that I put things on; if I can just arbitrarily define words, then when I say "table" I might mean the thing on top of the house that keeps out the rain...how on earth would you, or anyone else, be expected to know that?
Yes, new words come into existence all the time, since we come up with new things (inventions, ideas, etc.) and name them. Then, we put the words into circulation. Words don't stop being words simply because they are not used as often as they used to be; they merely become archaic.
With respect Spider,
I am not sure I will ever know then what a Water Table is since it is nothing similar to your definition of the word table.
As far as words being declared no longer words check ot the last 5 editions of websters dictionary.
I probably shouldn't even waste my time with something this silly and obvious, but I will.
I should think that it would be obvious that there is a difference between the phrase "Water Table" and the word "Table." The five letters before the "T" change its meaning. This is a common occurrence in English and many other languages...that different letters make different words and phrases, I mean.
Simply because Webster's decided to include and exclude different words in subsequent printings means they are less common, not that they are not words at all.
You can't have it both ways, you can't have a god who only responds from ego or status of belief. That is just plain crazy!
Time for some more "love" from the good book!
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
A tolerant, broad minded god!
Yes we may need to pray if we are religionists who believe in this.
Especially the teenage ones!
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
And quote more of his wonderful love!
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
All this love!
It is easy to remove a small piece of a thing and see something other than what was intended.
It is much more difficult to do the research necessary to see how such a bit fits into the context of the message and the history.
Of course, most of you arguing here already know that.
To ensure everyone is on the right track here.....
If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
A solution to the problem of disbelieving rabble is upon us! Praise be!
If we were to do all ther things you say we do, you would be dead. You and your family along with everyone who agreed with you would be long gone.
Please stop trying to force your crap down our throats.
something for you all to think about LOGICALLY of course
You find quotes from your bible to be crap?
Hi Earnest..... what do you have against the Jews?
And He said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
“The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.
And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.
I am a new covenant believer, so ONLY those aspects of the Torah that have been reiterated in the new covenant are binding upon me.
Thankfully the verse you quote is not, but thank you for your balanced scriptural quote.
This is the best that I can explain who I understand the book of Deuteronomy
It is the story of God redeeming his people out of the land of Egypt, and their journey back to the land that was promised to these descendants of Abraham. God, in keeping with his covenant with Abraham.
In their absence the descendants of Abraham found their home had been taken over by other peoples. Not only did God have to reclaim this land to whom he had promised it, he also had to reclaim his people.
When the prophets of these other gods would try to lure his people away, GOD saw this as a Coup D'tante (sp.?). Drastic measures would have be carried out.
I do not fully understand the intricate details but this would be my over view of what Deuteronomy is attempting to explain to us.
The Israelites entered into a contract with God. Most of Old Testament is about *that* covenant, at *that* time with *that* group of people.
The New Testament represents the time when the word was opened up to Jews and Gentiles alike. The world had changed; the Hebrew people *BROKE* the covenant (which is why they were punished harshly)...a *NEW* covenant was formed for the entire world.
I should think something like that would be easy to understand. You'd think intelligent people would know better than to take a snippet of something out of context without trying to find out who was written for, by whom, and why.
You'd think intelligent people would realize that if god wrote a book we wouldn't need layers of interpretation and scholarship around it, it would mean what it says.
You'd think intelligent people would realize if someone commands a genocide then they've commanded a genocide, and if later on they don't command any genocides then prattling on about "context" is irrelevant to the fact that person is a mass murderer.
What is "extremist" about not wanting to hear your ridiculous beliefs every day? And by "you" I mean all believers.
Stop knocking on my door to offer me the good news.
Stop ringing the church bells every day
Stop the TV programs
Stop the advertisements all over the place
Stop pushing leaflets under my windshield
Stop trying to get the Bible back into schools
Stop all the google ads
Stop telling me there is a god
And I will never once again say "there is no god."
That is a deal cause
I have never done those things to anyone
And I agree with you. I don't like it either.
Those that do those things, I would call an extremists.
There are degrees of certainty that everyone find themselves in,concerning any issue.
And to blame religion for conflict and to believe that without it there would be peace is as ridiculous as to believe that guns kill people. People kill people. Take away guns then people would use big sticks. To take away sticks they would use big rocks. etc.
The problems in society does not lie within things.
our problems lie within our heart and mind and not in the heart and mind of others.
We must be careful of the things that we hate lest we become
worse than it.
But - you are doing them right here, right now. Your self-avowed intention is to "show another point of view that they hopefully can see some validity in."
So - you are trying to persuade me that your point of view has some validity.
And no - sorry - I am sick and tired of hearing about god. All my life I have listened to people claim there is a god. Had enough - as have many, many others.
Sorry - the days of being able to claim some authority by speaking for an invisible super being are gone.
And there are people here and now "spreading the word of god."
They stop - the "extreme atheists" stop. Simple really.
So you want to take the right of speach from those that do not speak as you do?
You want to exterminate people that have diffrent fiews than you?? You want to take them out of the world that you live in?
Your views are the only ones that have any validity?
I hope that I am wrong.. but..It seems that you have fallen into the trap.
You now have become like the thing that you hate most.
I never said any such thing. But - I understand that because you believe in a god - you feel the need to put those words into my mouth.
A minute ago you were agreeing with me that people who go around preaching god were a pain in the ass. Now we want to exterminate them? Hmmm.
Sorry you are unable to grasp the basic concept that - if you stop telling me there is a god I do not need to laugh at you and say "nonsense."
Everyone has the right to expect any fiew they wish
Yeah RK, I agree, thought being an atheist meant you believed in nothing
Being an atheist means you do not believe in a god. Any god.
Exactly, I think that is what I said. So what are you trying to say?
Maybe some day they will understand...
why would we care !
I love this threads !
to say ...And I can show another point of view that they hopefully can see some validity in.
In no way do I see that this statement saying that I am "trying to persuade" anyone of anything but sharing another opinion, that it seems that I am not suposed to do here on forums. cause someone might hear it and not agree.
So - you want to exterminate anyone who disagrees with you then?
And are unable to accept that trying to get some one to see some validity in your ridiculous beliefs is attempting to do what you claim to hate?
You can say that I said anything that you want to say that I said. OK by me. Any time anyone says anything on the forums, we/they are expressing a point of view.
Every time; no matter the topic, someone is going to disagree. No matter what a persons philosophy, no one is going to agree completely on every detail of that philosophy.
If I jumped into every topic that I had some difference with, Accusing them of pushing their beliefs upon me I would be wrong. I would be guilty of doing what I am accusing them of doing.
I do not expect anyone to agree with everything that I believe. And I really do not care if polar opposits exist. That is what keeps the world turning.
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