Christians have their view and reasons for it. This doesn't matter as far as salvation. Salvation is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ because He shed blood for our sins and we accepted His sacifice as a gift.
1. Wouldn't it be better to be raptured prior to the tribulation?
2. Will Christians go through it?
3. Is the raptured considered the Second Coming?
I think that Tribulation is an inner battle, not an outer one.
I think the entire Bible is metaphorical, not literal. The entire thing descries the processes the psyche goes through. Such as the "seven seals" are the opening of the seven chakras.
If the bible is purely metaphorical, and God wrote it (using men as tools) then He did so using metaphors designed for the language and culture of 2,000 years ago. Effectively making it impossible for modern man to understand - He must not desire new converts, preferring to send them to Hell. Yes?
I wouldn't know, as I don't believe in Hell or God as the Bible describes him.
And why would an Almighty God want to spend His time writing metaphors that people can't understand? I would think that would be a colossal waste of time.
An alternative explanation is that the bible was written and compiled by men, for man's purposes. Still written in the language and culture of the time, but without any hint of care for future generations as the writers would be long dead anyway.
Another is that God wrote it, but for purposes that remain completely hidden and have nothing to do with what was said - purposes which are being satisfied without man ever understanding a thing and so there is neither need nor desire (on His part) for an update to promote understanding in modern man.
Or perhaps it really is literal, we just choose not to believe such things and so, wanting an alternative explanation we like better, decide it is metaphorical in order to proved answers we like.
Many possibilities come to mind, but that God wrote it in metaphor so far removed from modern cultures that it cannot possibly be interpreted correctly, but still expects it to be understood is not really one of them. Or so it seems to me.
All things in existence has both a carnal and spiritual purpose therefore I have to disagree with you on your "Alternative Explanation".
I agree "God wrote it (through man)" for the spiritual comprehension to remain hidden until its actual manifesting time.
Concerning "perhaps it really is literal" I say it doesn't make any since when accept it as literal facts because too many details are missing requiring one to piece each individual story into mental picture by adding missing ingredients for clarity.
Actually it's written using symbols common to today's cultural understanding due to the intermingling of man from so many different cultures. One example is in my hub "Questions To Aid The Reborn" and almost all of my hubs contain them.
Wilderness, the Bible is a collection of books that was written over a period of 2000 years. It was not gathered into one book until some time later.
1. God inspired the men who wrote the books of the Bible.
2. The old testament prophesies and looks forward to the cross.
3. The new testament is fulfillment of the old testment and prophesies about eternity.
4. Though most of the men did not know each other, there is no inconsistency in anything that is written.
People try to site inconsistencies but they have all been disproved. That's why I was telling Hy, you can't just lift up a passage without putting it in context.
5. God is real
6. God loves us.
7. God wants us all to live eternally with Him.
8. The Bible tells us how we can live in eternity with Him ... if we want to do so.
9. God gives us all a choice to accept or reject Him and His Word.
Who has influenced your beliefs? Is there some system of study? I wanted to focus on the 3 concepts of rapture to keep the focus narrow.
But....keep participating please!
Yes, salvation and the rapture are 2 distinct subject, though very much intertwined now as we continue through the birth pangs. On to your questions:
1) It would be easier to be raptured before the GT.
2) Christians will go through it.
3) The rapture is a "second coming", but Christ's return to rule the world, when his foot touches down on the Mount of Olives, comes at the end of the wrath of God.
Hi! Scriptures support that view *which Scriptures."
Mathew chapter 24 is the primary scripture where Christ sums up the end of the age and the great tribulation – there are others as well, but I’ll focus on Mathew.
In verse 3, the disciples ask Christ “what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” The rest of the chapter contains Christ’s response.
Christ first warns in verses 4-5 of false teachers , “many will come in my name saying ‘I am the Christ’”. I’m adding my own commentary here Diane – we don’t see too many literally saying “I am the Christ”, but we do so a load of teachers coming in Christ’s name and teaching falsehood. I argue that these teachers are saying “I’ll show you the way to Christ – do what I do” – in a round about way they’re claiming to be Christ. Christ continues his warnings in verses 6-7, warning of “wars and rumors of wars”. Then Christ says this “all these are but the beginning of the birth pangs”.
Things get worse. In 9-11 Christ warns of intense persecution, and the falling away of “many” (Christians), because of that persecution. And an even greater falling away as “the love (agape) of many grows cold” because of increased “lawlessness”. Finally, in verse 13 Christ says, “ But the one who endures to the end will be saved”.
Saved for what? Christ doesn’t mean eternal salvation at this point, because just below in verse 14 he says, “And this gospel of the coming Kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come” (emphasis mine.).
Christ is talking about the birth pangs in verses 4-13. The birth pangs themselves are intense, as noted by the falling away, and Christians must be prepared for this, or we’re at risk of falling away – those are Christ’s words. Then the pangs come to an end.
Starting in verse 21, Christ speaks directly of the GT., and in verse 22, Christ makes an interesting statement: “And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short”. There are Christians in the GT, and Revelation goes into far more detail about the intense trouble both Christians and non-believers will experience.
The question is this: Are these Christians we see in the GT new Christians? Are they born again when Christ comes just before the GT? No. Let’s look at Luke 21:35 where Christ, speaking of this same period says, “It will come upon all who dwell upon the face of the earth”. He doesn’t amend this with “I’ll take all of you home first…..” or I’ll spare you this time.
Christ expects us to 1) Know the season of his return
2) Be prepared by allowing him to clean us up.
3) Stay the course during the GT – helping others get
through the fire and grow up into him.
That’s it, kind of in a nutshell Diane.
all of that describes what will happen but not necessarily where the rapture will be.
What do you think about this Scripture and note that it is in the final book.
“Because you have obeyed my command to persevere, I will protect you from the great time of testing that will come upon the whole world to test those who belong to this world. (Revelation 3:10)
Let me address Rev. 3:10 first. "I will protect you from the great time of testing that will come upon the whole world......" Yep, and notice he doesn't say he will take us out of it. It takes a wild stretch to imagine that Christ will take us home, particularly since there are Christians here during the GT, which means that they didn't go home in pre-trib rapture, right? So there's the timing - no pre trib rapture. Feel free to ask me more specific questions about what I posted above, and I'll come back as I can - it might take me a little time because business is really busy right now!
I can address one more item before I leave for a while. I noted above where Christ spoke of the birth pangs. These pangs come immediately before the GT (the pangs for the "birth" of the GT). Finally, in verse 13 Christ says, “ But the one who endures to the end will be saved”. Christ says here that Christians MUST endure to the end to be saved....he's talking not about salvation here, but being saved for some purpose, a purpose which he reveals in the next verse: “And this gospel of the coming Kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come” . Christ says two things here: 1) That Christians will be saved (preserved, set aside) for the purpose of proclaiming the gospel of the coming Kingdom as a testimony to all nations. This service we render to Christ is after the birth pangs and during the GT - there's absolutely no other way to understand it. Christ adds that "then the end will come". What is the end? It's the period of the GT, after which all Christians will be taken, just before the wrath of God falls upon the earth. In other words, Christ uses the birth pangs, a severe and challenging time, to wake his people up and prepare them to be used of him during the GT.
I am a post-triber because of comprehending the prophecies, look at this and see if I err.
The christ said "he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved" and in "the 10 virgins" parable half survive and half doesn't. Take that to Revelation 16:14-16 where we find "the battle of that great day of God Almighty" as the actual tribulation and after that we have "Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame; And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon." Put together we get ...
"The saved" will survive the tribulation said clear and without needing any interpretation. The "10 virgins", I interpret as 10% of the end time population, parable we see half are shut out of Armageddon which, in understanding the "to gather them to" before naming the battle, suggests it happens after shutting up Armageddon.
Paul said "the dead in Christ shall rise first" meaning before the rapture while Rev. 6:9-12 tells us they are already discarnated because in Rev. 14:13 we are told "Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth" therefore some has to discarnate during "the battle of ... god almighty," the 5 foolish virgins. After the battle Armageddon's 5% gives birth to Rev 6's "dead in christ" (DIC) for a thousand years and together they give birth to "the rest of the dead" per Rev. 20:4-5. The rapture begin as the population increases for the "new heaven and earth" (Rev 21) with spiritual man they and the christ called Jesus will call them one at a time, the paymaster parable (Mat. 16:1-16), until only the second christ is left as the Alpha and Omega.
Can you find a better explanation?
Nature, I don't even know how to begin to respond to this. It it's a mishmosh of Scripture references and interpretation that is way off base.
What theology books have you read? Maybe that will help me understand where you are coming from?
I was spiritually directed to that interpretation. Just after my September/October 1973 "new conception" spirit directed me as a spiritual fetus to reread the Bible objectively and used Strong's Concordance definitions. [If you want to know how I questioned it read my hub "Questions To Aid The Reborn"] I then realized what KJV Isaiah 28:9-12 was saying I must do to get the pure message of the book.
I wanted to go to a Seminary and paid about it to which spirit immediately said "you don't need to go to school, I have already taught you." So why should I disobey spirit and read another "man's study study of god" which is what a theology book is? Should I not listen to the one who had been guiding my life, I then realized, since I was about 6 months old? My mother "beat" me one more than she did the other four children combined because of that guidance so why should I not after being brought that far by it. [On my profile page is a house that is a link to my website, go there and find in the Contents "the book of life: a letter to the world" which is my life story, if you want more details of it.]
Point to any error I made, please. Why do you think Jesus gave us those parables anyway?
Your whole discussion goes off. Let's take Isaiah 28:9-11. I think you are saying that you get teaching from somewhere other than the Bible ... I'm not sure. What you are saying is scattered, not fluent or Biblically based. I'm providing commentary explanations for the passage:
Benson Commentary verses 9-10
Isaiah 28:9-10. Whom shall he — Namely, God, or his prophet, or minister; teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? — Who is there among this people, that are capable and willing to be taught the good knowledge of God? them that are wearied from the milk, &c. —
(please note this)A minister may as soon teach a young child as these men. For precept must be upon precept, &c. — They must be taught like little children, slowly, and with leisure, the same things being often repeated, because of their great dulness. Line upon line — One line of the book after another, as children are taught to read.
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary verse 11
11. For—rather, "Truly." This is Isaiah's reply to the scoffers: Your drunken questions shall be answered by the severe lessons from God conveyed through the Assyrians and Babylonians; the dialect of these, though Semitic, like the Hebrew, was so far different as to sound to the Jews like the speech of stammerers (compare Isa 33:19; 36:11). To them who will not understand God will speak still more unintelligibly.
Isiah 28:9. "Whom shall he [spirit] teach knowledge? and whom shall he [spirit] make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk [sustenance for babies and children produced by their parent I translate to mean 'religious dogma'], and drawn from the breasts [or means a parent feeds their child its milk I translate to 'religious TEACHERS and PREACHERS']."
Doesn't that interpretation make a more accurate sense of those words than "Benson Commentary"?
Absolutely not. The problem was that people knew so little, they were not maturing in the faith.
multiple scriptures concerning people being babes and not know how to live the Chrisitan life.
Warning against Drifting Away
11We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain, because you are dull of hearing. 12Although by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to reteach you the basic principles of God’s word. You need milk, not solid food! 13Everyone who lives on milk is still an infant, inexperienced in the message of righteousness.…
He was in the assembly in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers. And he received living words to pass on to us.
1 Corinthians 3:2
I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for solid food. In fact, you are still not ready,
1 Corinthians 14:20
Brothers, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be mature.
So also, when we were children, we were enslaved under the basic principles of the world.
We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain, because you are dull of hearing.
Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith in God,
Remember the early days that you were in the light, when you endured a great conflict in the face of suffering.
1 Peter 2:2
Like newborn infants, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation,
Treasury of Scripture
You say "Absolutely not" so give me YOUR reasoning and not the reasons you got from reading the Bible.
When the "children equivalent" of all mammals are weaned they becomes "adolescents", in man is the age after 12, until entering adulthood or puberty, thus, that was talking to the "new born" who is supposed to leave off hearing from man and becoming dependent to hearing directly from god, as it is called.
Those scriptures you provided, like your Acts 7:38 reference, are to the people who are afraid to hear from god direct as was the multitude in the desert called wilderness with Moses or those who have no sense of reference to what is called god Genesis 6:2 call "daughters of man".
1 Corinthians 3:2 A repeat of Isaiah 28:9 as I interpret it.
1 Corinthians 14:20 Fresh spiritually born continue to hang on to good/evil.
Galatians 4:3 is before "spiritual birth" man are bound to the world's principles.
Hebrews 5:11 is to backsliders and/or not spiritual born.
Hebrews 6:1 is saying exactly how I interpreted Isaiah 28:9.
Hebrews 10:32 is to "backsliders".
1 Peter 2:2 is talking to the none "born again"
Nature, it is impossible for me to speak from your point of view. It's like discussing a book review and we are not discussing the same book.
I don't know how you developed all of this. The Bible is my source and I can't talk about the Bible without giving cross referencing from the Bible.
I can't read your mind. If I start talking off the top of my head, who can follow that?
All spirit b born has an understanding not common to those not born again. With Romans 1:20 saying "THE INVISIBLE THINGS ARE CLEARLY SEEN BY THE THINGS MADE" everyone born again should make available their testimony of their conception, gestating, trivial, birth and level of growth far a testimony to others claiming rebirth without one. So, if we are that far disagreeing then you are not reborn. I told you before, on my profile is a house link to my website where under the title "The Book Of Life: A Letter To The World" you will find mine, so if you want proof of mine, read it for yourself.
I've seen your stuff before. Who are your followers? What are your credentials? Since you are His prophet (so to speak) tell us about the rapture and tribulation period. Give us source references please.
This forum is about the rapture and the tribulation period.
Matthew 24: 30 e "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, f and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Before the Internet age this sounded impossible. How could people all over the earth see Him ... especially since the earth was round. Now we see that this was prophetic.
Now....we have access to see all over the eartth from the Internet. It is possible for everyone, all over the earth, to see the Song of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Prophecy fulfilled! Praise the Name of Jesus!
Mat. 24:29 "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened (Rev. 21:23), and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:" is very clearly telling us Christ's coming is AFTER the tribulation and he will follow Mat. 10:8 "So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first" in rapturing us.
Since the idea wasn't presented until the19th century, I don't put much stock in its validity.
Only the idea of the pre-trib rapture was presented in the 19th century. Until then, Christians understood that Christ gathers his elect to him AFTER the GT.
No one's ever offered me a solid scriptural case for a pre-trib rapture. After I was born again, I kind of went along with the pre-trib rapture thing, but was never comfortable with it because it just didn't seem to be backed by scripture. When I finally took a good look at it, the pre-trib idea turned out to be just that, an idea, but not scripture based.
Very true, Hxpof, for both pre-trib and mid-trib, otherwise who lives during Rev. 20:4 before the rest of the world's dead lies again (Rev. 20:5)?
Like you, I have always been taught pre-trib. The good thing is that it doesn't matter because God has a perfect plan for believers.
I did a little searching and found this - long may not want to read
The History of the Pre-trib Rapture
http://www.essentialchristianity.com/pa … geid=21918
As more and more people embrace the doctrines of the Reformation, many of these people fail to discard the errors that some of the Reformers were unable to discover in their limited lifetimes.
Many of the Covenant Calvinists embrace the Roman Catholic ideology of amillennialism. Furthermore, many within this tradition, and even within the premillennial family, assert that the doctrine of a pre-trib rapture did not develop until the 1800s. Such statements are terribly inaccurate.
I agree with Dr. Tim Lahaye, Dr. Richard Mayhue, and Dr. Wayne Brindle when they state: "The timing of the rapture is not a cardinal doctrine that should divide God's people, but those who interpret the Bible literally find many strong reasons to believe that the rapture will be pre-tribulational" (The Popular Encyclopedia of Bible Prophecy, 289).
No matter whether one believes in a pre-trib rapture or not, there are historical statements that verify that people have indeed believed this teaching before the 1800s.
The Early Church Fathers Were Premillennial
It is clear that the early church immediately following the apostles held to a premillennial view of Christ's coming to earth. These theologians embraced two key truths concerning Christ's return to earth. The idea of an any moment return and a coming of Christ to rule as the political and spiritual king over the world were advocated by many of the earliest theologians. Here is a partial list of some of the theologians who embraced the doctrine of imminency and/or the future kingdom rule of Christ:
Clement of Rome (90-100)
The Sherpherd of Hermas (96-150)
Ignatius of Antioch (98-117)
The Didache (100-160)
Justin Martyr (110-165)
The Epistle of Barnabas (117-138)
From these men we see the doctrine of Christ's soon return within a premillennial framework. The doctrine permeated the early church. Some of these men even had direct contact with the apostles.
Two Pretribulational References in the Early Church
1. The Shepherd of Hermas (95-150)
The Shepherd of Hermas was written between 96-150 AD. This document provides a statement that resembles a teaching of a pre-trib rapture doctrine. Though it is not exactly as found in modern day scholarly pretribulational writings, it still shows that an idea existed in some degree that God's people could escape the future tribulation that was to come on the whole earth. The text reads:
"You have escaped from the great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life serving the Lord blamelessly."
This is not a systematic teaching, nor does it answer all of the questions that one may have. But it does give a reference to the possibility that God's people can escape the great tribulation.
2. Victorinus ( Well known by 270 and died in 303 A.D.)
Victorinus wrote a commentary on the book of Revelation. In one place he made an interesting statement that reflects his idea that the church would be removed prior to the tribulation. Of course his ideas were not systematic, and some will argue that he contradicts himself in other places, which may very well be true. But even with such an admission it still serves us well to see that early in the church history someone taught in some sense that God's church could escape the tribulation period by being removed from the earth. His commentary notes in Revelation 6:14 indicate a pre-trib reference of some sort:
"And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up." For the heaven to be rolled away, that is, that the Church shall be taken away. "And every mountain and the islands removed from their places intimate that in the last persecution all men departed from their places; that is, that the good will be removed, seeking to avoid persecution.
This reference gives light into a developing idea in the earliest periods of the church. There was an idea that God's people could be spared the terrible time of wrath thatGod would pour out on the earth by removing the saints. The saint's departure from the earth would occur so they would not undergo the terible wrath at the beginning of the judgments of God upon the sinful unbelieving world.
Three Clear Summary Points from the Early Church Fathers' Teachings
These early church fathers expected Christ to physically return to earth followed by a 1000 year kingdom rule on earth.
By many of the writings we can see they believed in the possibility of an any moment return of Christ with some statements that resemble a pre-trib view point.
Even though the early church was under heavy persecution these teachers believed there would still come a distinct time of great tribulation in the future.
Two Pretribulational Teachings in the Medieval Church
1. Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373)
Ephraem wrote an important sermon "On the Last Times, the Antichrist and the End of the World." As a prominent theologian and prolific writer of the Eastern Byzantine church, he advocated for a pretribulational rapture position for the church. Dr. Grant Jeffrey has noted that he had a profound love for the Scriptures. Below is a selected quote that concerns the escape of God's people from the horrible tribulation. He stated:
"We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled, and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of hte Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we ovvupied with wordly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that He may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms the world? Believe you me, dearest brothers, because the coming of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it it the very last time. Or do you not believe unless you see it with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: "Woe to those who desire to see the Day of the Lord!" Because all saints and the Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is to about to come and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins. And so brothers, most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of this world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their earth exists with blind infidelity, arriving at its downfall early. Commotions are brought forth, wars of diverse peoples and battles and invasions of the barbarians threaten, and our regions shall be desolated, and we neither become very much afraid of the report nor ofthe appearance, in order that we may at least do penance; because they hurl fear at us, and we do not wish to be changed although we at least stand in need of penance for our actions!
Notice that there is a clear teaching on the rapture of the saints before the terrible tribulation period. This theologian admonishes the people not to desire to see the Day of the Lord? Why? Because in his mind to see the day of the Lord means a person is not a believer. The believers will be snatched away and taken to the Lord before this time period begins. Look closely at what he says again:
See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: "Woe to those who desire to see the Day of the Lord!" Because all saints and the Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is to about to come and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins."
Scholars Dr. Ice and James Stitzinger provide some other insights as to what this theologian taught concerning the end times. In many respects this theologian taught many truths that are common among the Dispensational system of interpretation today. They note that Ephreum
"develops an elaborate biblical eschatology, including a distinction between the rapture and the second coming of Christ. It describes the imminent rapture, followed by a three-and-half-year-long Great Tribulation under the rule of Antichrist, followed by the coming of Christ, the defeat of the Antichrist, and the eternal state. His view includes a parenthesis between the fulfillment of Daniel's sixty-ninth and seventieth weeks (Daniel 9:24-27)."
Keep in mind that this reference is 1500 years before the time that many critics of the pre-trib view claim this doctrine developed. Many falsely advocate that the idea of a pre-trib rapture view developed in 1800s through J.N. Darby or through some sects and mystics. Such a view does not hold water, though it is popular in many circles.
For example, I once visited a Reformed Baptist Church in Greenville. It was a question and answer time session hosted by two pastors connected to the fellowship. Students from North Greenville College, Furman Univeristy, and other colleges, universities, and churches were present. A sincere man raised his hand and asked this question: "Why will no one teach on the book of Revelation and prophecy anymore? Can you give me a biblical answer to the issue of Bible prophecy." I thought it was a great question and I was interested to hear a biblically based answer from Scripture by the two pastors. Sadly, what was given in reply caused several of us in the room to have a serious concern for the pastors answering questions. Instead of providing an answer to the student's question the two pastors took the next ten minutes to simply attack the idea of a pre-trib rapture view. These two men did not take the time to provide for a biblical defense of their view. All they did was attack the pre-trib view as a modern invention that developed in the 1800s. After they attacked such a view, with little to no defense of their own view, I called the men on the carpet for a failure to study history and to defend their own view biblically. I asked them about several men who held this view before the 1800s, such as with Ephraem and others I'll discuss below. They had no reply to the information I gave to them.
2. Brother Dolcino (d. 1307)
One scholar has found a quote that relates to the teachings and disciples of Dolcino. Dolcino and his followers held to some form of rapture view whereby people were translated to heaven before the time of judgment on the Antichrist. The teaching is as follows:
"Again, [Dolcino believed and preached and taught] that within those three years Dolcino himself and his followers will preach the coming of the Antichrist. And that the Antichrist was coming into this world within the bounds of the said three and a half years; and after he had come, then he [Dolcino] and his followers would be transferred into Paradise, in which are Enoch and Elijah. And in this way they will be preserved unharmed from the persecution of Antichrist. And that then Enoch and Elijah themselves would descend on the earth for the purpose of preaching [against] Antichrist. Then they would be killed by him or by his servants, and thus Antichrist would reign for a long time. But when the Antichrist is dead, Dolcino himself, who then would be the holy pope, and his preserved followers, will descend on the earth, and will preach the right faith of Christ to all, and will convert those who will be living then to the true faith of Jesus Christ"
Teachers and Theologians after the Protestant Reformation Who Believed in a Pre-trib Rapture
At the time of the Protestant Reformation a major shift in how one interpreted the Bible caused the church to adjust in her views on the end times. Predominately under the Roman Catholic Church the Bible was interpreted allegorically. Scripture dealing with end times, prophetic texts, for the most part suffered from the hands of those who would not take the text literally. However, as the Reformation grew and as people began to return to a literal interpretation of the Bible the more people shifted to see that Christ was going to come back to earth to rule and reign. Many of the Puritans and Pilgrims, the 2nd generation of the Reformation movement, adopted the idea that not only was Christ going to reign on the earth but he would also translate his church saints before the awful time of his outpouring of wrath. Several of these scholars in some form or another held to a pre-tribulational rapture position.
1. Joseph Mede (1627): Clavis Apocalyptica
Some believe that he in this work made a distinction between the rapture of the saints in contrast to the second of Christ to earth.
2. Increase Mather (1639-1723)
Increase Mather was a pastor, scholar, and was the first President of Harvard College. Paul Boyer has noted that this Puritan scholar proved "that the saints would be caught up into the air beforehand, thereby escaping the final conflagration." This teaching from Mather was an early formulation of the rapture doctrine it seems.
3. Peter Jurieu (1687)
Peter Jurie in his book "Approaching Deliverance of the Church " (1687) taught that Christ would come in the air to rapture the saints and return to heaven before the battle of Armageddon.He spoke of a secret Rapture prior to His coming in glory and judgment at Armageddon.
4. John Gill (1748)
Dr. John Gill was one of the most brilliant scholars of his day. This Calvinist Baptist theologian wrote a full commentary set on the Bible in 1748. In this commentary he made a statement in his notes on 1 Thessalonians 4 that supported a time difference between the rapture of the saints and the coming of Christ to earth. He said:
....here Christ will stop and will be visible to all, and as easily discerned by all, good and bad, as the body of the sun at noon-day; as yet He will not descend on earth, because it is not fit to receive Him; but when that and its works are burnt up, and it is purged and purified by fire, and become a new earth, He'll descend upon it, and dwell with his saints in it: and this suggests another reason why He'll stay in the air, and His saints shall meet Him there, and whom He'll take up with Him into the third heaven, till the general conflagration and burning of the world is over, and to preserve them from it....
5. Morgan Edwards (1742-1744) the Founder of Brown University
Edwards was a prominent Baptist Leader in his day. When he came to America he was recommended to a pastoral role by the famous John Gill. He founded the first Baptist College in the colonies. This college later became known as Brown University, a well known Ivy League University of our times. Edwards taught that Christ would return for his church saints 3.5 years before he returned to establish the Kingdom of Christ on earth, the 1000 year reign of Christ. He specifically said:
"The distance between the first and second resurrection will be somewhat more than a thousand years. I say, somewhat more--, because the dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ's 'appearing in the air' (1 Thess. 4:17); and this will be about three years and a half before the millennium, as we shall see hereafter: but will he and they abide in the air all that time? No: they will ascend to paradise, or to some one of those many 'mansions in the Father's house' (John 14:2)."
Summary: Orthodox Believers of History Have Believed in a Pretribulational View
As stated earlier in this link, the timing of the rapture debate should not be classed as an "A" level truth. The fact of Christ's coming is a larger issue. Then next in the scale would be if Christ will rule on the earth as King over all the earth. Those two issues are higher on the scale than the exact time of his rapture of the church age saints. To divide a fellowship or to break fellowship with a body over this one doctrine shows a sign of immaturity.
However, Christians must recognize that those who paint pre-tribulationists as fanatics, fringe movement Christians, or as heretics who have emabraced some strange and novel idea never heard of until the 1800's have done a disfavor to the entire body of Christ. Whatever position one holds to in this area, everyone should at the least admit good, sound, and orthodox believers have taught this view before the 1800's time period. And many today continue to see this as a valid position to hold from the Scriptures when properly interpreted in a plain, consistent, and normal manner with the words given their ordinary usage in historical context.
Yes, it's true that there were teachers before the 1800's that espoused Christians being taken up (raptured as we say) before the GT; evenso, the teaching did not gain widespread acceptance until starting in the 1800's. There are so many problems with the use of the scriptures that supposedly suggest that Christ takes us home before the GT; I'll address some.
Rev. 3:7-13. In chapter 3, Christ is speaking to various churches, most of which have issues. But in the case of the Philadelphia church, Christ says, "Because you kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of testing that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth". First, what is this "patient endurance"? How is it that some saints are keeping Christ's word of patient endurance, while others aren't? There's a lot to that, and since that's not the immediate subject, I'll leave it alone. However, Christ is saying something here that he doesn't say to ANY of the other churches (body's of saints). What Christ does NOT say is " I'll take you out of the world before the time of trial'. He doesn't come close to saying it. God is capable of keeping his people safe no matter where we are. Still, safe during the GT clearly doesn't mean that we'll all live happily until Christ's return. Look at Revelation 7:9-14. These saints clearly bit it during the GT - there's no other explanation. And Christ teaches clearly in Mathew (see my above post) that Christians will be serving him during this time, because that's when the "gospel of the coming Kingdom is preached" to every person on earth. Christ adds, "then the end will come'.
I strongly disagree with the idea that it doesn't matter if Christians are pre-trib or post -trib believers. From a born again standpoint, if really doesn't matter. But with the end of the age upon us, Christians believing that the worst times will be avoided, that we'll go home before most of it happens, will NOT do what it takes to be prepared. Christ warned us of the times to come, saying, "praying that you may have the strength (faith) to escape all these things that are going to take place, and stand before the son of man.' So we pass through them, but are spiritually unharmed. Many of us will be killed, just like some will during the birth pangs, but "not a hair on your head will perish". Again, Christ doesn't say he'll take us home.
The safe place Christ to keep referring to is the safety of being in him, becoming like he was on earth, walking as he walked. Then, we hear rightly from God, walking in wisdom from God, and relying entirely upon him for all we need. That's it, having Christ formed completely within us will allow us to make it through the GT, and be "rivers of living water" for those who are coming to Christ in time of incredible trouble. That's how God's going to use us in the coming days, the terrible days ahead, even very soon as the birth pangs increase.
Your last paragraph seems to be in agreement with me. First of all, we can't lose salvation. After we become Christians we are to pursue holiness daily through our walk with Him. So my point is .... it doesn't matter when we die physically, we will end up in eterenity with the Lord.
I understand those who are Christians during the GT become such during that period of time.
Many will be saved during the tribulation. God will send 144,000 witnesses (Rev. 7:1-8) and angels (Rev. 14:6-20) to tell others about Jesus Christ. Men and women will have an opportunity to accept Jesus Christ during the tribulation and many will respond. So what does 2 Thessalonians 2:7 mean that He will be “taken out of the way”? The verse means that the Holy Spirit will no longer restrain the antichrist and He may no longer indwell the saints here on earth. If He no longer indwells believers, His ministry will be like that in the Old Testament. Men and women came to know the Lord in the Old Testament. The Holy Spirit empowered men for ministry. He came upon men such as a Samson so that he performed great acts. We would encourage you to read “The Spirit’s Ministry – Tongues and Prophecy” for more details.
https://www.neverthirsty.org/bible-qa/q … r-rapture/
My preacher uses the term Pan-millennialism (whatever pans out). I believe there will be catastrophic events in the future per the book of Revelations. I don't believe Old Testament prophecies apply - they are historical in nature. And just as we can see their fulfillment and how they were fulfilled by hindsight I believe our future is clouded by the fact we're limited beings and God is not.
I do believe it doesn't matter which position you hold. The important thing is that salvation is through the blood of Jesus Christ.
I do like to understand why people take whatever positions they take. All of my past pastors have held the pre-millenial view. I guess I'm drawn to pre-millenialists. I listen to a lot of pastors from Dallas Theologial Seminary where the pre- position is espoused. They do teach all positions.
Do you know any pastors that have the post- or pan-millenial positions?
JW said " And just as we can see their fulfillment and how they were fulfilled by hindsight I believe our future is clouded by the fact we're limited beings and God is not."
That is true of all who are not "born of the spirit" for everyone born of the spirit will be shown things of the future. Look at all the places Jesus said "let him who has ears hear what THE SPIRIT HAS TO SAY", that is to the BORN AGAIN not carnal man. The "born again" are open to the spirit's meaning f the words and not their carnal meanings.
Nature, your problem is coming up with your own word which is conflict with the Bible. Everything God wants us to know is from Genesis to Revelations.
I speak what "what you'll god" directs me to say, because it isn't what man-en-mass say shut it sounds like my own words. Why don't you see throughout the bible only a few people accepted god's words by his prophets? Why you think it should be differently now?
The main things provided to us between Gen. and Rev. is how man-en-mass have no interest in truth so anyone not wanting the results of NOT turning to what you call god will "ravel the path least traveled".
So why hasn't God revealed these things to other people. I have heard no one speak these things other than you.
Anyway....we are discussing pre-, mid- or post trib. So you don't believe any of them I guess.
They must be lying about their rebirth if they can't comprehend me or are not willing to ask spirit before denouncing it.
So the focus is you and not God? Are you under a physician's care?
The focus is on one's ability to recognize "spiritual seeds", Jesus wasn't the person but the sower is why he told us to go through the metamorphosis of the new birth, the spirit which is within you is the focus (Luke 17:21) and will always be.
2 Timothy 2:15-16 1
5Make every effort to present yourself approved to God, an unashamed workman who accurately handles the word of truth. 16But avoid irreverent and empty chatter, which will only lead to more ungodliness, 17and the talk of such men will spread like gangrene.
God directed everything I do therefore he approves of everything I reveal because of living what I teach and "practicing what I preach." I can not be made ashamed for "truth is only known by those who live it". My views appear as "empty chatter" to those who follow the dictate of man whose beliefs are enemy to spirit inspired teachings" as Paul told the Romans, I believe.
Hindsight will verify if you're right. I have observed a great confidence of those who are "born of the Spirit" and I've seen object failures" of their prophecies and life styles. The "Spirit" is manifested differently in each believer's life and failures are exhibited in all denominations also. I'll stick with being a "pan-millennialist" and work with anyone who believes in salvation alone based on the sacrificial blood of Jesus Christ.
We need to take our discussion to another post!
Yes, JW, I also have "seen object failures of their prophecies and life styles" since they almost all live like the world when 1 Peter 2:9 reads "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light" and none of those making such claims were, in my sight "a peculiar people." Those few "peculiar people" I did find have to foretell something to me half [they always gave 2] of their prophecies came to pass.
In the context of the "great tribulation" that Christ spoke of in the Olivet discourse, I believe that He was speaking of the soon-coming peril of Jerusalem. The church's primary persecutor in the beginning was at the hand of the Jewish leadership, it was the Jews who caused the the church to leave Jerusalem. In Luke 21, Christ is recorded as talking about Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, and that they should leave when that happens. History shows that they were given a chance to leave as the Roman armies paused their siege for a brief time.
In my opinion, the entire Olivet discourse was primarily in the context of the destruction of Jerusalem which Christ had just stated would soon come to pass. The disciples asked Him when this would happen and what wee the signs of His return and the end of the age. I believe that the disciples truly thought that the destruction of the temple would usher in Christ beginning His earthly reign.
While we are not appointed to God's wrath, I do not believe that the tribulation that Jesus spoke of is the same thing as God's wrath.
Hi Tony! I just read your article on the meaning of the foot washing at the Last Supper. It's really well thought out and explained. Thank you!
When do you think the rapture will take place? Before, mid-, or end of tribulation period? Is it a metaphor?
Tony Muse, Malachi 4:5-6 and tons more OT prophecy speak of the Tribulation using many of the nations which including Sodom and Gomorrah [see Rev. 11:8 referencing an end-time nation to Sodom and Egypt]. There are a multitude of references to the tribulation aka "the end of the world" but not the earth.
dianetrotter - Thank you, I am pleased that you enjoyed it.
In all honesty, none of the terms "pre-trib", "mid-trib" or "post-trib" are found in scripture. They are, in my opinion, ideas made up by man in order to try and place the the events described in the Olivet discourse into particular eschatological views. I believe that the tribulation that Jesus spoke of was in regards to the events that occurred between Christ's ascension and the destruction of Jerusalem. The only event that Jesus could not give an answer to was His return, as He had admitted that only the Father knew when that would be.
So, I do not ascribe to any of those three views within the eschatological framework in which they belong. In other words, I'm not convinced that Jesus claimed that there would be a "great tribulation" just prior to His return. It should be noted that the true church has seen tribulation for nearly 2,000 years now, and I see no reason why that should change before Christ returns.
Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"
30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." and
31 "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other"
suggests the rapture happens after the tribulation and during the earths repopulating by Rev. 20:4 surviving "5 wise virgins" who first give birth to (Rev. 6:9-11) "the dead in christ" Rev. 14:13 suggests were the "5 foolish virgins" who discarnated during the last termination of this civilization will help," by my reading.
True, pre, mid nor post are in verbiage. Neither is rapture. We are told that "caught up" is the translated term.
I consider the rapture (caught up) supported by I Corinthians 15, which describes the process of being caught up at the trumpet sound.
Companion passage II Thessalonians 4: 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
I take John's dream to be prophecy of end times.
Thank you for comments I can respond to!
Hi JW. I do my best to adhere to what Jesus said; that the law, psalms and prophets were preached until John... With that in mind, I believe that all prophecies concerning Christ and Israel found in the OT were in fact fulfilled. Some attempt to label me as a Preterist, but I will contend that I don't adhere to their criretia.
As far as the book of Revelation is concerned, I don't view it as much as a book about the future, but as a revealing of who Christ is by using symbolism found in the OT as proof. Take chapter 12 for example. It tells of a male child being born, then being taken up to heaven. That is Christ and He has already ascended. That event took place long before John received this vision. This book was intended to be a comfort to all who read and heard it. I see it as a timeless promise that God will prevail in the end and that all who belong to Him will receive their reward.
Tony, when you read the first versa of Revelation it says plainly "to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass" meaning the COMING Christian Church would go into 7 stages ending with "Laodicean" or "mega-church of today". Then Rev. 4:1 reads every "things which must be hereafter" written in the book of Revelation will happen. Those two verses are paramount in knowing the timeline of end-time events.
The0NatureBoy - The concept of the seven churches representing stages of church development is not a new one, however that view is presumptuous at best. Since the phrase "the things which must soon take place" is used, I must remain a bit skeptical that everything written in this book would unfold 2,000 years after it was written.
The intended audience of this book was the seven churches of Asia-minor to serve as a comfort for their current persecution that the church was facing. Verse 9 states:
I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus.
This was a letter designed to give comfort to those who were being persecuted fort their faith, to let them know that evil will not be victorious in the end. However, we can certainly take application for it today.
Read Genesis 49:1 & 8-12, for what era does it apply 6,000 years later, now? Genesis 4:16 "And Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden" can't we recognize it as the Americas to day when recognizing "Nod" means "to seep and awaken many times"? So, although written to those churches why can't it be prophetic of the last days?
If you look at John's revealed Revelation past Chapter 4 and back at many of the things that happened in the prophets you can apply many of them to the United States of America aka MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT... so why not something written so close to Mystery Babylon? Those prophetic things were designed to comfort Israeli of that time but they are still prophetic of the time of "Spiritual Israel" of these final days of this civilization/world.
Isaiah 28:10 tells us "precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little" and, if you know the Roman Catholics split into Protestant history of the Christian church after it, don't those 7 concepts match several dispensations of the Protestants? The Bible is telling us how to understand it so why not use what the Bible say do?
The0NatureBoy - Malachai 4:5 “Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the Lord. 6 He will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers, so that I will not come and smite the land with a curse.”
This is talking about John the Baptist who came in the spirit of Elijah. John preached repentance and prepared the way of the Lord.
dianetrotter - I agree, I think... The event that some call the "rapture" is our blessed hope. It is my belief that Christ will return only once and that the whole idea of the church being taken to heaven for seven years while the world wrestles with the antichrist, and then Christ coming down with the church to begin the "millennial reign of Christ" is pure fiction.
I refrain from using the word "rapture" because it is not used in scripture and it is almost always used in the context of a secretive event which actually contradicts scripture (1 Thess. 4:16). I usually call it the second coming, return of Christ or us being gathered to Him.
The0NatureBoy - The "great and terrible day of the Lord". The phrase "day of the Lord" as often used in the Old Testament to describe God's wrath being carried out against a rebellious nation. You especially see it a lot in the book of Isaiah.
Malachi 4 speak of the last call of repentance for the nation of Israel. This is reiterated in Matthew.
Matthew 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
The great and terrible day of the Lord was God's wrath being carried out on Israel. Unlike the previous times when Israel was removed for following after other Gods, this punishment would be for rejecting God's own Son.
Matthew 23:37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!
This was the destruction that Jesus foretold in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21.
Many were baptized and repented because of John, John paved the way for the coming Christ, the last hope for Israel. The Parable of the Landowner found in Matthew 21:33-46 was about this as well.
The US is actually today's Israel although the US has disguised it by restoring people in Palestine in 1948 but the "GREAT tribulation", not the tribulation, is the termination of this world as Mat. 24:29 indicates and verified by Revelation 21:23. The "after the TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light" imply some distance especially since the sun and moon are still shinning but will not be until this civilization return again as implicated in Genesis 1:14.
Ecc. 1:9 "The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun" say things happens time and time again unceasingly in a cycle and include two different civilizations. Why do you think Jesus said "seek the straight way with a narrow gate"? There is only one straight line around the earth naturally which is first light to sunrise and sunset to dark that the 7 days of creation [and 7 days at this one's ending] makes it, it is there the saved (Rev 20:4-5) are "harvested" via what's called the rapture.
The0NatureBoy - Babylon was used to denote the mystery, pagan religions. The great pagan religions of the Old Testament times were Babylon and Egypt. In both cases, Israel was called to come out of both of those nations. It is interesting that when the Jews returned from Babylon, they retained many of the Babylonian Talmudic traditions. It could be said that many of Israel truly never came out of Babylon. It is also interesting that the story of Esther was occurred well after the Jews were allowed to return to Jerusalem under the Persian rule. Why were these Jews still in Persia? Had they become too comfortable with all the riches that were available in Babylon and Persia? Why is this the only book in the Bible with no mention of God? Just some food for thought.
Is the USA Babylon today? I'm not so sure about that. While the USA is a very diverse country in regards to freedom of worship, it is still "perhaps" one the last bastions of the Christian faith. Yes, the influences of places like Hollywood and Las Vegas are far reaching, but so are the countless missionaries that continue to span the globe today.
*Babylon was used to denote the mystery, pagan religions.* Those words alone mean you know little about the USA where most of its leaders are devil worshippers lying to the people, child molesters (congress' pages during my childhood), Christmas is a pagan celebration, Easter another and look at most of the statues in this nation which are Warriors. The Catholic Church hides the "colored' Mary and Child painting ad changed his color (Exodus 4:6-8) from a darker skin to white and its child molesters are protected by US government when their PRACTICE (Constitution's Amendment 1) is celibacy. That, and more is why it is called MYSTERY, the truth is before everyone's eyes but they don't see or don't want to see it.
Spiritual Israel (endures Mat. 24:13) are told to come out (Rev. 18:4) as a type of historical Israel. If you actually understood most of Jacob's (Jacob is symbol of whites born on the foundation [heal] of black Esau) you would it is about the last days' white nations [see my hub "Why It's Written In The Name 'Of' Jesus"]. However, if you read the actual history and some OT prophecies, most of the Jews left Jerusalem when hey saw the gathering of Greeks around them, the one's that didn't died with most of the rest of the jews in the area. Egypt means "place of Bondage" (for the most parts open slavery is abolished but look at amendment 13 allowing slavery for law breakers) and Sodom means "forced sex primarily with minors" which is rampant in this country's "devil worshipping" government and rich. Those are the things which makes it MYSTERY.
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