It seems that some people think that expressing your beliefs are not appreciated unless it is like theirs. Expressing your thoughts should not be comparable to a weight lifting contest, where squashing the "OPONENT" and winning at all cost is the prime objective. What ever happened to sharing ideas in a friendly fashion. A conversation requires both people to listen.
Yes. I agree. The problems arise when people hold a belief that involves telling some one else what to do.
So - you believe in an invisible super being who created the earth. Fine - no problem.
Now you decide that you need to build a public monument to that super being, claim tax-free status and preach the word of the invisible super being using bill boards.
You also decide that the said super being has some strong thoughts on certain subjects and feel the need to pressure the politicians to change the laws of the land to match what the super being tells you is "right."
See how this belief that you are perfectly entitled to starts to encroach on other people?
I don't care what you believe - and if you had a reasonable belief system - I would never know what you believe. (generic you)
But people like to join clubs and congratulate each other on their beliefs system and call them "churches," and manipulate other people into joining this club.
If people kept their beliefs to themselves - there would never be an issue.
You make a valid point...but are not...at least in the U.S....all beliefs allowed a tax-exemption status...and to build whatever building they want? I'm just saying. Maybe the one with the "Super-being" have been busier...more than the other beliefs? Anyways...who really wins in a challenge of ANYONES beliefs...? I agree with you and what you said: "Yes. I agree. The problems arise when people hold a belief that involves telling some one else what to do." Here in lies the real problem...People on all sides seem to have to impose their beliefs...Some like to argue for their side...some have interpreted through their own studies and preaching that they are to be "enthuisiastic" in their approach...and still some beliefs...feel like they have to cram a 747 into where you live and work...to get the message...Wow...is this a crazy planet...or what?
So what you really do not like is freedom. Billboards effect you how? A tax free institution effects you how? You want to control the actions of others while whining they want to control you, hypocrite!
Mark...Question arises...Then wouldn't each person get to decide what interferes with each person? Just saying...that puts as back to square one...at some point...we just have to accept that people are going to think...what people are going to think!
Fine, how do those things effect you? I understand and agree that those who are full of the "Holy Ghost" tend to be a little on the aggravating side, but whats the point in belittling their beliefs, it wont change them and you would have a lot more free time.
well, I am a simple girl. I skipped the whole rest of this thread, Im sure I know whats in it. Im outta here now, just wanted to say...I believe what I believe. It is interesting to me to learn others beliefs, but I will most likely not change my view, and I have no intention of changing anyone else. I hope everybody has a nice day. see ya manly.
Sorry, I expanded the original post sentiments to something as common as Tshirts. Maybe if you read it like this you'll get it: Will any reasonable person admit that ...You're entitled to believe whatever you want to believe (even print it on a shirt). Holly
Hey...the Paul....you have your opinion...and you can follow it...I'll be my own judge of what I think makes me a moron...I've been making moronic choices...for a long time now, thank you...and I don't need no help from anyone...in that category!
"Who will accept that each person can have their own beliefs?"
Just about everyone.
It's like making a thread demanding people assent the sky is blue. You're going to get less agreement than you might think because it's such an obvious point that its meaningless, and much more likely to draw attention is your implied accusation that the rest of us think the sky is red.
There are no discussions where people are arguing others shouldn't be allowed to believe things. What there's plenty of is people disagreeing with one another's beliefs and trying to convince the other person that they are wrong. That's the opposite of the accusation you're laying down, it's a tacit admission that people have the right to believe however they like and the only way it's going to change is if they're presented with ideas or information outside their current system of belief. Not by attempting to deny them the right to those beliefs.
There is no denial of people's right to believe. What you're complaining about is the free exchange of beliefs.
And you've stepped into a great big exchange of beliefs to do it.
Now...the truth comes out...When I make a comment that you want to contest...that means I'm complaining...right? You got'ta a pretty big axe to grind don't you? I can just feel the anger...in ya'...Come on...give it your best swing. Guarantee...when you're through with your comment...I'll still be going "Huh" "What'd he mean by that?"?...What else ya' got...besides "pretty dumb', "moronic", and "cannibalism" ?
It's not that you're complaining. Everyone complains. It's that you're complaining that other people are daring to communicate ideas you don't agree with.
Not that they've drawn those ideas from shaky grounds, not that you think those ideas are harmful, not that you think those ideas are simply wrong, you're complaining that they're communicating them at all.
On one hand, it's perfectly obvious that your complaint is going to do nothing more than stir up more of the thing you're complaining about. "Man, I sure hate it when bees sting me! I'm going to walk a mile to the nearest beehive and punch it so they get the message!"
On the other hand, it's hypocritical. If you'd prefer everyone keep their thoughts to themselves, why not lead by example and shut up?
I believe that people have the right to believe what they want to believe. I also know (from experience) that you should be prepared for other people to challenge your beliefs, especially if they go against the "norm" of society.
Really...? I don't see this question as having anything to do with challenges...yet the first two responses were exactly about that.
I see this as a counter to another thread that asks people to admit their believes are wrong...and they don't know what they are talking about! Why should it matter what someone believes...unless their beliefs bother you.
That is a good question. The "norm" of society differs for many people, depending what society you live in. However, if you believe something different, people WILL challenge you.
For instance, in the United States, Christianity would be considered the "normal" religion. I'm a Wiccan and I am challenged almost daily to defend my religion.
The way I see it is, if you TRULY believe something, you should be able to defend your beliefs to anyone who may want to challenge you. You don't have to, but you should be ABLE to without using quotes from religious texts. Even if it is just a simple, "Because that's what I believe," you are defending your right to believe what you believe.
Ah, sounded so much better in my head than when I actually typed it out.
No...it is a good answer...after all it is what you believe...Right? As far as quoting religious texts: Christians are taught to seek their answers...and to stand for their beliefs...through scripture....ie: Bible. So...the reason I tell you this is...so that you will know: That they will always defend their beliefs by quoting the Bible.
Hey...FK...I don't mind the ridicule...for 99% of the time...I stay out of the Religion Forum...because...what I don't understand...is the not understanding...that folks beliefs are just going to be different. (Period) That's just how it is...folks. You ain't going to win no battle 'round here!
Think I spent thirty years thinking one way for nuthin'...and have some smart alec...who is going to walk up with all the answers that will change my thinkin'...Ha! Again...I say...Ha!
True, there are people where it is not enough to disagree with you, they intentionally try to hit a nerve by disparaging your belief. The only thing I can say is that those people are so threatened by your belief that they do it in an effort to silence you or discredit you. Either way, the effect that they want is for you to retreat. The only thing I can say is don't let them get to you. I know that you are a lovely man.
Thank you...Gosh...Shucks...As usual your writings exudes your own amazing wisdom...I am constantly astonished by your wit in how you get your point across...! Thanks for that...If only folks could see that the "bashing" of a nerve...ain't doing anything for either side! As for me..."retreating"...is never an option...Ha ! "Retreat H_ll...We are just fighting in a different direction" (a rough quote from some of our servicemen during the escape from the Chosin Reservoir, Korean War)
as if you dont know how society works, why do you think for many centuries people believe in the church, there must be something in the people not the church??? it is their belief and they are the majority,and they are free to voice their opinion, and so yours
Do you always feel being threatened, or it is you who want to change believer, Get over it MR MARK KNOWLES, like manlypoetryman said, nobody can change your belief, not at the point that you are already old
fighting the church is liking fighting a DRACONIAN, its a system you are fighting
"I guess it's only natural for inferior beings to ride on the coattails of their superior counterparts. If they wish to keep their lives, they have no choice but to obediently comply. It's a never ending chain... as the ones who are burdened with that trust, in order to escape that burden, seek to find someone even greater than themselves. These greater beings then seek others even greater than themselves to shelter them. This is how Gods are born"
Yes, those who seek rational answer do need to stop believing. But i don't want church to crumble cause not all people can handle the emptiness, some are just going to follow and they should follow as that is the best thing for their life.
Your OP is about believing what you want to believe. This can and done by every person on Earth or walks Earth.
We all form our beliefs, based on knowledge, experience and other influences, so as to understand the meaning of our own life.
However, your beliefs are validated to yourself and those who you agree with. And, on other side of your belief, could be truth about life, for which, isn't known by some who form their beliefs.
Once, you form a belief it is reinforced by your faith in yourself to discern the truth. However, should you form a belief based on insufficient knowledge about the topic of your belief, and then openly share you belief with others, it will be challenged, should it be formed incorrectly or not based on facts/truth already known about life.
Huh?...Ok...I'm going to have read that whole cannibalism point you made again...but anyways...what's important is what you believe...after evaluating within yourself...that it is a wise choice in which to believe...that is what I believe...and that Is my point!
The Paul: You're pretty dang intelligent...aren't ya'?
Gosh Darn...You sure have very odd comparisons...Who is going to punch a beehive? That would be "pretty dumb". You could use some lightening up. You sure make a lot of generalizations about my ideas...when I am not sure if I have ever clearly communicated what those ideas are on any forums...let alone on this thread. You are out of context...again.
This is the means to the point of interaction I started on this thread:
"You're entitled to believe whatever you want to believe"
That is all...no more...no less...that doesn't entitle you to ramble on about "my beliefs" and what I think others should be...and it "dang" sure don't mean...you get the last word in on what my beliefs are...the Paul. Why don't you go troll someone else for awhile...I'm trying to get to my special happy place...on the forums...where everything is peaceful...and happy...and we all get along! Ta-Ta and Toodle-lee-doo for now, my friend!
In all the religious debates I have participated in, online or with people I actually know, I have seen that accusation made probably a hundred times and have seen an atheist actually call for that kind of censorship once. And when he did he was immediately jumped on and ridiculed for his stupidity by more or less the entire predominately atheist online community where he made the claim.
I see plenty of examples of Christians interpreting freedom of belief as freedom to agree with them, but this thing about atheists wanting to curtail your freedoms is just a myth.
Mark brought up a good point pertaining to a Christian preaching on a street corner about how others should believe, etc. I do have mixed feelings about that method of sharing anything be it the gospel, save the dolphins, etc. But what if you walk past someone wearing a shirt saying "Jesus saves" ? Does that give an athiest the right to stop them to lecture and ridicule them? Do you simply let the believer be? On hubpages the passerby would make a complete mockery of the believer just for kicks.Hopefully in real life they would just walk by respectfully. And no, I don't flip out seeing a spaghetti monster shirt. Holly
What if someone walks around with a shirt that says "There is no God."?
I've seen people do it on occasion. It's generally poorly received. Often the people nearby won't confront them about it, acting under the impression the person is a dangerous sociopath, but they whisper back and forth about how terrible it is to wear something so offensive.
And yet if someone wears a shirt with a message along the lines of "No one comes to the Father except through me," not only is that an equally strong message, it's just as much an attack on non-Christian theistic religions as the first shirt is. But everyone's cool with it for some reason.
Sooner or later someone works themselves up and does confront the person wearing the first shirt. If that's acceptable why should the person wearing the second shirt be exempt?
The Catholic church in Rome and Vienna managed to get the Atheist "There's probably no god" bus campaign stopped, there were fights in Spain over it and the American organiser has recieved death threats.
Anyone should be able to believe what they like. Faith is a deeply personal thing and who are we to question it in others? Especially when it brings peace and comfort to them...To take that away from someone is just cruel.
I was trying to point out the difference as I see it when someone has a personal belief in plain view vs imposing that belief on others. Out in the world vs on hubpages. If my shirt says I believe, and someone else's shirt says he doesn't...it poses no problem for me. I think we can all express a belief on a shirt without having to attack anyone who is different. I don't know why someone else's belief simply being should bother me. And if I can afford that courtesy, why is it not returned? Of course there are those who would take what is reasonable to display to extemes. I do read many threads about things I don't believe in on hp. Sometimes I think it is laughable, sometimes infuriating, but I don't barge in mocking. Sometimes common courtesy is best and should be exercised more. Enjoying the thread, Holly
Wearing your beliefs on a shirt isn't silently holding them, though. It's blatantly declaring them to everyone who sees you. If someone challenges you on the beliefs your shirt declares, and you find yourself wishing they would just keep it to themselves, remember that you didn't.
But sometimes a bunch of people get together and claim that a kid who didn't eat his communion wafer properly has committed an act of terrorism, then engage in a letter writing campaign to have the "terrorist" expelled from university.
In instances like this all they deserve is bashing. Why would anyone make a rational argument against that? Those people abandoned rational, the only possible way to challenge them is to let them know their stupidity and intolerance is going to meet more of the same and hope that shakes something loose.
That's an extreme example, but the principle comes up. Sometimes people are just being out-and-out assholes, and they need a metaphorical slap in the face because they're not going to listen to a nice, rational discussion of why what they're doing is wrong. Religious people aren't an exception.
That is definitely an extreme example...but it does illustrate an ability to express oneself in the written word...which BTW...how about a Hub on your thoughts. I get the whole Hub Pages Forums are fun thing...but you can't write 100 plus words in a form of Hub...on Hub Pages...where everyone else is writing Hubs?
That's like showing up to the Drag Races...to race...without a car (an extreme example).
It's the enlightened progressives(atheists and liberals) that need to be curbed! All they want is a fight and lets face it theres a whole lot more evidence to support Jesus than there is to denounce him. We all have "Free Agency" do with yours as you see fit and leave the others to theirs. Lifes tough enough without people piling on, ask but be respectful.
What exactly would one have to do to hold their beliefs silent? Maybe hide in seclusion? In this day and age where people are free to "be who they are" and express themselves, they do it prolifically. A Tshirt is hardly screaming! The "tolerance" is missing. How strange is that? I will wear what I want on my Tshirt...You wear what you want on your Tshirt. Isn't that freedom for beliefs? Holly
I just wanted to point that out...since this one likes to bring up "new facets" of generalizations with every rebuttal...into a somewhat simple and general discussion...I thought this would be an interesting generalization...too. But...I also kid...a liitle.
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