So is god actually good, or evil? Christians see it as all love, but sorry, this god supposedly intentionally created a world where everything must suffer, and kill something else just to survive another day, and that's how he shows his love and mercy? Please.
Were that god real he'd be worse than any tyrant egomaniac and cruel beyond belief. And people worship such a monster and see it as all good? Really? Unbelievable. That’s my opinion from the facts of life.
Now, I’ve asked Christians this before and some have told me it’s our fault because we ate a fruit in the garden we weren’t supposed to eat. Cool. Problem is, what did cows do to deserve their lot? Or any animal out there fighting for life? Everything has to suffer at some point. Why, if there were a loving merciful god that lets babies suffer and die of cancer?
I’d really like Christians to think about this and give me their best thought out answers. Convince me your god is not a sick tyrant egomaniac, were it real. But hold back on the Trumpisms, please.
Really, give it all you’ve got.
Your question assumes a specific definition of God. Have you considered the possibility that God is different than what some people say?
You're perceiving evil as something God inflicts or allows rather than what it is, which is the absence of God's influence itself. There's no such thing as a loving relationship without choice, which God gave us from the very beginning.
Whether you believe the Garden was a metaphor or a literal story about the origin of evil, none of us is less culpable than Adam and Eve were. In one form or another, we've all made the choice to sin (which simply means following our own will rather than God's.)
The only person who was absolutely without sin is Jesus, and His sacrifice is the only way we can reclaim the relationship with God we were always meant to have. God doesn't let terrible things happen because He doesn't care any more than the Earth "lets" plane crashes happen because of its gravitational pull. It's a natural consequences of the laws that govern this reality, and evil is a natural consequence of sin. Innocent people and animals are hurt because of the sin of others, and that's something that grieves God, but it will always be that way until Christ returns because we live in a corrupted world.
Good traditional answer, but it evades the question and the facts.
If god created all this he set it up the way it is so he is the only one responsible for evil.
So what is the point of the supposed free will god gave you if you have to choose to do his will? It's not logical. Talk about a tyrant. Do my will or go to hell. Love my, worship me or go to hell. What else would you call anyone else who said that? A tyrant egomaniac at best. Yet you're god can do no wrong in your view.
As for Jesus sacrifice, that's the kicker. Father says to his deters and those who have supposedly done him harm: "Murder my only son, and I'll forgive all your debts.
A loving merciful god needs a blood sacrifice to forgive? Give me a break. I don't even need anything like that to forgive someone. I can just forgive. An omnipotent god can't? Really?
Then, to top it all, you have to accept this murder in your honor/accept it, and even celebrate it, making you complicit in, it, or you don't go to heaven. Wow.
It's like allowing/paying someone else to do jail time for you. We don't allow that. It's illegal. But if god does it, it's good.
So, unlike the Christians, the Jewish god wasn't considered all good, just all powerful and not to be messed with. A good guy to have on your side, and a horrible enemy.
I get that. It's obvious from how the world works that god, were it to exist, can't possibly be all good. It does what it wants, it created this and can do what it likes with it. Isaiah 14, I think is the passage,, god admits to creating good and evil.
But Christians want to make it all good. Yet the evidence of the world says it can't be.
Oh, Slarty, Slarty. I leave for a few years and you fall into this intellectual mess.
God is paramita Good. You may want to look up the Buddhist term and study it for a few months. Even then, there's no guarantee you'll understand the true meaning of that statement.
If you draw a cartoon of a man and have it fight another cartoon of a man, are you evil for creating such a drawing? If you program a computer game where virtual tanks destroy one another, are you evil? Of course not.
God created this universe as a training ground for his children. It was meant to wake them up so they could mature as spiritual, baby gods. All of these bodies you're so concerned about are merely so much programming. It seems real, but...
When you stub your toe, sure it hurts. When a mountain falls on you, of course you're killed. How else can a sleeping spirit find the strength to decide which is more important -- spirit, or being a cog in the machine of physical reality. That is the only vector of true free will. Most people choose to suffer, because spirit is still too unreal to them.
If you truly want to know more, you will buy the following books and read them each at least twice -- once to overcome the intellectual newness of the concepts, and the second time to START to learn what was written.
* Proof of God
* The Science of Miracles
* Spirit is Digital, Science is Analog
* The Bible's Hidden Wisdom: God's Reason for Noah's Flood
Each of these is available at Amazon, Smashwords, Barnes & Noble, Kobo, Apple iBooks. They are also each available in print versions.
Good to see you still around, though. I might check back in 5-6 years.
Oh, you might also want to check out my #1 Weather Bestseller (14 weeks), Climate Basics: Nothing to Fear, so important, I set it at Amazon's lowest possible price -- 99c.
Sincerely, your friend, always,
Rod Martin, Jr.
Welcome, old friend.
Yes, Sorry, you're voicing another traditional argument/excuse that misses the mark.The theory is: god defines what good and evil is so is above both. Sorry, that doesn't wash.
And paramita has at least 30 total uses and contexts in Theravada Buddhism, but I have yet to see a definition where it is said god is paramita good. Paramita itself primarily means a way/road to perfection of character, when all is said and done.
No, if I create a game where tanks are killing each other, or simulated humans rape and kill and pillage, that's not evil. But if I know my simulated people feel pain, suffer mentally and physically for real, and I set it up that way anyway, then yes, I'm evil by any definition.
Thus why even were this world a simulation created by a 15 year old with his father's supercomputer, and the kid knows we feel real pain and suffering, and yet still did it anyway, he's too is an evil little shit. That's why your idea that god created this "simulation" is no different than a stimulation by a 15 year old with a super computer. If this is intentional, then it's evil.
You can't get around it.
"God created this universe as a training ground for his children. It was meant to wake them up so they could mature as spiritual, baby gods."
Right. And you know this how? You don't. It's a hypothesis that attempts to explain the world. But is this god of yours so inept that it has to create things that are "asleep" to their real nature? It couldn't give us that knowledge by default? It couldn't train us as spirits? It needs this device to help it along? We're only asleep then because it designed us that way. Had we been trained in the spirit world we'd already be awake to what we are. Illogical.
Of all the ways it could have created a training ground, (though why it would need one is beyond logic.) it did this? And what the hell does a spirit need training for as a human? It's all illogical.
And why do other animals need to suffer if they are just there for us to eat? Cruel or what? And why does everything need to eat in the first place? And why are only other living things really good for us? That's cruel if was intentionally set up that way.
Oh, and yes, it's all about "free" will which god wants us to have to "freely" do it's will, not ours, because our will is deemed evil. Yeah. Thanks a lot god. Also illogical and cruel. We do our will, we're punished. We get coerced in to doing its will, and we're rewarded. That's not free will, it's fear of the tyrant.
You' a "god fearing" man? Why? Your god is all love and light. Obviously that's bull or you wouldn't fear it.
And sadly, there is no such thing anyway, You do what you want, right? You do according to your likes and dislikes, right? So that's free wil.
But wait a second. Do you choose your likes and dislikes? No. You just have them. Some are gained by learning, but their root is your genetic predispositions and environmental conditioning played against each other.
We have lots of will. It's unique, dynamic, and personal/individual. But's not free.
Good luck with your books, I have a few out there too. I'm familiar with all those concepts, I assure you. But thanks.
See you in 5 years, if I'm still around. Or you can stay a while and argue with us. It's one of the best ways to learn. Use some of the arguments from your books.
I just posted a video, if like God were on trail and the judge would be a hard Christian.
Tell me what you think?
Of course. It depends on your definition of god. If you say god is whatever produced all this, then god might be a natural process, not a being at all. So there would be no intent, so no evil.
But if the god that created all this intentionally then no matter who's god it is it has a lot to answer for.
There are lots of possibilities. God is evil and likes things to suffer and being all mighty and having been able to do it any way it liked, it chose this. That seems to me the Christian god.
But it may not be all powerful. This is the only way it could do it:?. Still has a lot to answer for.
Or, perhaps nature already existed and god only created imperfect life forms and let it all evolve for fun.
Or god could be really messed up and we/and everything, represent that inner turmoil and imbalance, and we're the way it tries to work out, heal and or gain a form of perfection.?
But my point is, any conscious being that did this with intent is evil. And I'm asking people who believe their god is all good to give me their best arguments for why that isn't so.
"But it may not be all powerful. This is the only way it could do it:?."
Perhaps He was only powerful enough to cobble up some amino acids and throw it into an ocean on a planet He found circling a G2 star? And the rest just happened willy-nilly?
Who knows? There's literally dozens of possibilities. Some are less plausible than others, and fewer still have a good probability. Like the invisible pink squirrel gods that live in my attic. I found a note book when I moved in that told me about them. It says I have to worship them or they'll get my nuts.
I think major Religions do more harm than good.
I have a house in Belize. Many places that sell photos on T shirts down there have either Jesus on a cross Or big smiling Bob Marley.
I prefer Marley t shirt even if he smoke too much in his Religion.
Much better than the T shirt of suffering and endless regrets.
Cannabis is a great religion all by it self. I've been worshiping the great god Hashish for 50 + years.
Cannabis is the best known medicine in the world. Happy 1/2 century to you.
Been doing it for 53 years in moderation. It sure helps the spirit, body and mind.
Glad to meet another worshiper. And happy half century to you. I'm almost 65. I've been smoking cannabis since I was 13. And yes, medically it's helped all through my life in various ways. My daughter wouldn't have been born had it not been for weed. My wife couldn't hold down any food at all. The pills the doctor gave her did nothing. She started bleeding so we went to emergency. They said sorry, you're having a miscarriage, you can go home and wait.
I went out, and got the best bud in town, and made her smoke a couple joints. She stopped vomiting, stopped bleeding, and my daughter turns 40 this year. .
And now it's legal here in Canada, and everyone is rediscovering it's amazing health benefits and healing potential all over the world, so I'm in heaven, no longer an outlaw, and vindicated.
And yes, it's great for the spiritualist and musician and artist too. It may not have created anything but cannabis, but what more can you want from a god?
So everyone! Praise be the great god Hashish, saving us from the Christian god! LOL.....
I see it as a self indulgent belief to think any of us are in a position to answer cosmic questions definitively.
I just can't muster that much ego.
I couldn't agree more. Though it's not so much about ego as logic. No one can know with any certainty at this point, so believing one way or the other is often wishful thinking and personal preference, not knowledge.
But we can know a lot by studying the world, thus logically deconstruct our beliefs. That's not ego, it's a search for truth. and knowledge.
You have such a way of stating the obvious.
Good. If it's obvious, it's self evident, which means it's fact. That's all I'm interested in. Thank you
The only fact available, for your specific question, is there are no absolute answers available.
Your penchant for attempting to claim some knowledge out of the fact we cannot claim knowledge is,again, an exercise in ego.
There are no selfless acts or thoughts. Everything is driven/motivated by self interest of some sort. Even if that self interest isn't anything more than not being able to live with yourself if you don't run into a burning building to save a person's life/
There's positive and negative selfishness or ego, if you like, but not selflessness unless it's in regards to accident.
So your comments are ego driven as well. So what?
My ego want's facts. I hate fooling myself. And an exercise in trying to find truth trough logic may be egotistical, but in a positive way. It may help everyone.
So fact one: No one knows nor can know true reality at this point. To say you do is a lie, mostly to yourself. And one far too many people tell. Glad you're not one of them.
There are a lot of guesses out there, though, in the form of models. They can be logically examined to see if they are even real possibilities or not. Then, to determine their plausibility, and finally their probability. Always subject to new information, obviously.
And that's what I'm doing here; trying to see if anyone has any new information or perspective.
You'rs seems to be, we can't know right now, so stop looking. Hardly helpful in my opinion, and I can't agree to it.
I do agree that everything we do is motivated in part by selfishness. I've known that since I handed my first $5 to a homeless person and marveled at the fact it did absolutely nothing to change their life, but felt really good, nonetheless.
But, you should be honest with yourself as to your motivation here. I don't think it is what you claim it is. That's ok too. If it floats your boat, good on you. But taking the time to understand why we do what we do is more important than taking the time to bat down everyone else's ideas.
If I give good arguments, it forces your ego to defend its position and work harder to refute my arguments. That forces me to up my game. In a perfect world that forces you to try harder and up your game. That way we get the best out of each other. It's a debate, If in the end we've forced each other to think, we've both gained.
And seeds are planted. Any interaction changes all involved even if ever so slightly. But small changes can accumulate and form a critical mass that then creates a revelation or another large change. in thinking.
I do it to educate myself, and help others do the same.
People have a function. We gather, store, process, and pass on information. We all love to give our opinion, that's why we come to public forums.
Debate isn't for everyone, obviously. But when you give your opinion you are testing it with fire. Will it stand up? Will it fail? In science everyone is trying to prove there own models false in order to discover whether their model has merit or not. Failing is as good as having your model stand up, in that you've learned something either way.
I put my ideas out there to be tested by fire/logic. If someone can disprove my models, great! If not, just as great. I'm not married to them. I don't care what the truth is. I just want to know what it is.
If you don't want your opinions/beliefs tested, best not put them out there. And I don't mean you specifically. It applies to everyone.
There it is. In your first paragraph. If you give good argument. You want to argue.
There is no definitive answer. You don't have it, someone else doesn't have it. No one will have it without much more input from science, or divine revelation. Your ego wants to argue. Other people, wise enough to accept that we cannot claim answers now, are courteous enough to simply want discussion and are disinterested in arguments driven by ego.
God is non-existent, therefore he cannot be good or evil.
However, if he were to be exist, his state of inaction would deem him evil.
To quote Epicurus's trilemma:
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
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