Why would a god need to order the murder of his son inorder to forgive
As one of the swine, I would like to hear your captivating explanation.
Now that cracked me up.
I'll get back to you. I would, however, like for you to post your definition of "play" in this context.
Yes he was challenging and taunting Job ,but as always it was also a direct challenge to God..
The influence and power of Satan on earth is real and hes been master of temptation for quite a long time. However.
(Greater is He (God) that is in you-than he that is in the world)
If he didn't want them touch the tree why put it in that garden? Don't tell me a test because god already knew the results of that test before it was performed.
Eating a fruit is not evil. To think so is absurd. Christians seem to think it was such a big sin to defy god. But without them knowing good and evil how could they know it was a sin or evil?
The story makes no sense.
The only way it makes sense if it didn't happen was just a story told to explain to people why childbirth seemed like a punishment and why the ground did not always give good crops and why mankind had to toil. And also how the snake lost it's legs.
Of course that is isn't why any of those things are part of our lives. It is just an ancient story told by people who couldn't know better.
But I am not interested in my interpretation of the story. I am interested in why any one would believe it is true. And that is why and what I debate.
And what was it we were paying for with all those blood sacrifices? Not speeding tickets. At first it was just to gain a god's favor. Simple as that.
Give it something you need to get on it's good side.
Modern day christians have had two thousand years of apologetics to make more of all of it than there was. .Ok, so I've only read up to this point.
First and foremost, as a Christian, I would like to apologize on behalf of those believers who would rather shoot the argument dead in the water with their "you act like Satan, and I have nothing to say to you" arguments rather than have a real conversation. It's embarrassing and more than a little infuriating.
Why put the tree in the garden? The simple answer is free will. Without the possibility of making the wrong choice, free will does not exist. Without free will, we are just puppets. And God is not a puppet master.
Next. You are right. Eating fruit is not, in itself, evil, obviously. What attracted man to the forbidden act was the prospect of "becoming like God." It was pride. Because God gave us free will, if we decide we know better and want to do things our own way, we have that choice. Unfortunately, it is always the wrong one.
That is my opinion as a believer, and I welcome your response“First and foremost, as a Christian, I would like to apologize on behalf of those believers who would rather shoot the argument dead in the water with their "you act like Satan, and I have nothing to say to you" arguments rather than have a real conversation. It's embarrassing and more than a little infuriating”
No worries. It is not your opinion and I don’t paint all Christians with the same brush. No need for you to feel guilt by association. Each person has to be responsible for their own thoughts and actions..
“Why put the tree in the garden? The simple answer is free will. Without the possibility of making the wrong choice, free will does not exist. Without free will, we are just puppets. And God is not a puppet master.”
I have several problems with the idea that god gave free will and this is the reason the trees were in the garden. First off there is nowhere in the OT stories where god gives free will or mentions it. Second, they could not have free will until they ate the fruit and knew what good and evil was. That is not a trivial knowledge. It means a kind of ability to discern or make moral choices. To me the story sounds like the double edged sword of coming to consciousness. People must have felt, and some still do, that knowledge is dangerous and some things should not be known.
Never the less, god had people that were not much more than other animals in their ability to make choices on his hands. He just made these people yet didn’t know their character? That seems odd. Some say god wanted them to eat. That raises a whole bunch of other issues but we will deal with the ones you brought up. If he didn’t want robots it was essential that we could discern difference and he had a tree for that. Without it they really could not have sinned as they were innocents no matter what they did. You don’t punish an animal for doing what comes natural, you punish only a being that makes conscious choices and knows right from wrong.
Lets get back to free will. I have written a hub on it and I often write about in my hubs in general. The phrase free will is meaningless. We have plenty of will but none of it is free. You make choices according to your conditioning. That includes genetic predisposition and environmental conditioning. You make choices from personal history and all choices given have a history behind them. All choices are coerced by this dynamic. Making a choice with no history behind it would be a meaningless choice that probably had nothing to do with the choice given. It’s hard to imagine what that would even look like.
From the story Eve did not take the fruit because she wanted to be a god, she just wanted wisdom, like god. She sees that :“the tree was to be desired to make one wise,”
Again this not her wanting to be god. It is her wanting to know some of what god knows. The serpent said they would know good and evil as god knows it, not that they would become gods. The serpent said they would not die, and he was telling the truth. The eating of the tree itself did not give them mortality or kill them instantly. God cursed them to die eventually as a punishment. Then of all things he removes the tree of life for had they been smart enough to eat of that would have been like god in that they would be immortal. Seems nothing god could have done about it if they had from the way he reacts.
But they do change and they regret eating the fruit because now they feel naked. This is an indication that it was really a story about how man first become conscious and how that consciousness is not always a good thing. For one thing you are well aware of you impeding death. Most animals are not. Ignorance is bliss.
This idea that god wants us to have free will is interesting. Does he really? He wants us all to come to him of our own free will but if we do not he sends us to hell to be tortured eternally. That sounds like, love me worship me or go to hell. According to many Christians the only reason for free will is so we can choose god or not. What does that say about gods character? The vanity and ego and pride?
When we make laws we do not say you have the free will to disobey but if you do watch out. We say you don’t have a choice. And the choice god gives is the Mafia choice: An offer you can’t refuse. Robots seems to be exactly what he wants. Wiling sheep or nothing. Why?
Now others say free will is why god doesn’t show up and is not present for all to see. Nonsense,. Knowing for a fact the god exists would not hinder my choice, it would give me one. Now I do not have a choice because I cannot know whether or not a god exists. I can’t know what it really would be like if it did. So how can I make an informed choice of whether I want to follow him or not? I may not like him if I knew for a fact he existed and was like the OT god. So I would decline to be with him and suffer his wrath. Or I’d know how great he really is and join him. Now I have to have faith in something there is no proof or evidence of and is unknown. Not much to base a choice on.
So if he wanted to give us the free will to follow him or not he would show up.
Now again, forgive me because I can only look at these stories from the same perspective I look at any story. I can only judge the motives and characters and apologetics by the same criteria I would judge Moby Dick. But if you are a believer you have 2000 years of apologetics and church dogma to tell you what these stories mean. We are bound to have different interpretations.
"Of course that is isn't why any of those things are part of our lives. It is just an ancient story told by people who couldn't know better. "
Modern-day non-Christians love to say stuff like that, as if our ancestors were just too, too stupid.
Makes you feel better though, dunnit?
Why would you bother to ask this question?
Anyone claiming to know what is in the mind of an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent god is only talking out their opposite end.
Not to mention, almost ALL Christians ever to post on these forums, has not once made the claim to understand their own god's wisdom, words or will. They all do claim to read a book that is supposedly inspired by one, but that still doesn't mean they understand or even live accordingly.
It's actually a shame that many people who do read the religious books that claim to be the inspired word of a god, fail to see that 99% of their actions actually are purely intolerant of others. I've spend a great many years trying to figure out why this garbage is still allowed to be taught to people. And, then realized it was all a matter of control. It grants other people the supposed power to control other people. Too bad those who read the book are gullible enough to not see the control factors. 
I think I can answer that question. Jesus was supposedly here to fulfill and close the book on old laws and institute new laws. Jesus' death would be the final chapter on old laws and the last "blood" sacrifice.
You are most welcome and thank you participating.
Okay, let me see if I got this right. God had to come to Earth, be killed, which is a sin on humankind to begin with, so he could forgive them of another sin that they had already committed?
Oh, that makes perfect sense.
Because it wasn't in God's plan. He had to show suffering and pain in order for us to understand the meaning of his love. If we did not see and feel pain, how would we know it? If God did not give all mankind free-will how would we be able to make our own decisions? God gives all of us choices, we can decide right from wrong. Man is only as smart as what God has given him. What gives us the mind to think? What gives us air to breathe? The bible was written thousand of years ago, it is only a tool for us to understand how we should live. All of us make choices to believe or not to believe. Because a person does not believe, does not make them anyone different then myself.
God did not ask to be murdered have we forgotten Satan in the mix? A person's mind is very complex therefore; they were not lead by God. They were lead by there own Free-Will and what was bestowed upon them in there minds.The misconception of God is that he is always so Wonderful! He is not always nice. God also punishes and ordered thousands to be killed. Barbaric or not the perception of him being loving all of the time is wrong. Wouldn't you think, that if you are receiving the same answer from so many, that it is fact? The exact word is in the Bible so maybe you should pray and ask God for the answer.
wilmiers77 has the perfect analogy, you should go question your boss with his decisions. None of us know why God decided what he does, but those of us who do believe respect his decisions. Why? Because he is the boss.All of us have our own beliefs. That is what makes our world so wonderful. I respect your even if you do not believe and I am glad you have the same respect.Understanding the Bible can be complicated because it can be contradicting, but I know there is God and I am blessed that he is there for me. It is o.k. if others do not have the same belief system, I think that all of us learn from each other.
I also do know God isn't a myth and our world was beautifully designed, nothing could do that but God. But that is my own opinion, just like so many others.
One last thing. When that little person is created inside of you, that is not created from a theory, it is a beautiful miracle created by God.
Not bad.
But it still doesn't make a lot of sense. A god could just forgive without breaking any covenant, He didn't have to sacrifice himself to himself did he?
To me it sounds like theatrics more than anything. But you are the first one to come up with anything at all so you are to be commended.I appreciate your opinion but none of this is news to me. The problem is: 1 we are way off topic. 2 I am sure can convince myself that Jesus is with me. I used to be a Christian. But I have a good imagination like many people do. I have learned not to try to convince myself of anything anymore.
What you say is all the standard line. You have convinced yourself of it. But in point of fact you can not know any of it to be true. It is just something you believe. It is speculation.
I do not speculate and take it as fact. I can't do that.
If a god wants me it knows how and where to find me.
Yes, and we have millions of people doing the same thing, hence our world is in the state it is in.
Funny how you believers love to take advantage of everything science gives us and then turn around and say you don't need it.I do hope you're not going to comment in English!
That was shocking!
S >The Christian notion that god does not interfere is not born out by the OT at all . . . It is not Pharaoh who hardens his own heart every tine, it is god that admits to doing it <
>Authentic Christianity does not at all suggest that God is not actively bringing all things about according to His own plan >and purpose. God certainly 'hardened Pharaoh's heart' . . . do you know exactly what Scripture means by 'hardened his >heart'? Did God force Pharaoh to do something Pharaoh was terribly against doing? Does "hardening your heart' mean >that God is making you do something against your own will?
No. It means he is making you do something through his will. You probably think it is your own idea. Either way it wasn’t Pharaoh’s choice anymore.
Unfortunately you will never know what authentic Christianity was. That has long ago been all but buried . But be assured the Christians of that time were almost as fragmented as you guys are now. You have gotten agreement from some and disagreement from others.
S > He condones slavery and incest <
>He does not at all
Of course he does. He create the potential for it and according to you everything is his plan. So you can’t continue to ignore the fact that if he knows in advance and it is all part of the plan then he is responsible for it and we are just pawns going through the motions. .
S > Why else put an evil cunning snake and a poison tree in our play pen? <
>. . . it's all part of the plan. If you don't 'get' the plan or know God, then it may all seem a contorted mess that some religious >maniacs made-up and Christians all fall for - kind of like a retarded, infant, girl watching a football game . . . probably all >appears pointless and ugly.
Not appears. Is.
S > What is not fine with me is the idea that it would punish me for the massive crime of not believing it exists and not worshiping it like a puppy dog asking for more when the master hits me with his shoe. <
>I would feel the same way if I were to hold such an ugly and unBiblical view of God.
But you have done nothing but repeat it here. It’s all god’s plan. Every ugly little bit of it. An omnipotent god that has to create perfection by making the ugliest most sadistic mess possible. Not unbiblical at all, in fact. Just not the preferred spin.
S > since it is unfair for a god to create me without my consent in to a world where he has decided I am a sinful dirt bag from birth and wants me to believe in him and kiss his ass for eternity, I want to be able to opt out. That would only be fair. <
>again, I would feel the same way if I were to hold such an ugly and unBiblical view of God. You can make-up whatever >religious notions you want and then detest them as ugly and unfair - but you can't just make something up and call >"Christianity" and then argue against Christianity only doing battle against your own screwy notion of some made-up >'Christianity'.
It is a realistic notion of the situation. Did I consent to be born? No. Am I supposedly born a dinner? Yes. Does god want me to love and worship him willingly, and is that not the only reason it saddled me with free will and no evidence it actually exists? According to Christianity it does. According to your religion can I opt out and not go to either heaven or hell but be left alone to die and not wake up dead? Not that I have heard.
So I fail to see how I have misrepresented your religion. Explain it to me please.
G > Nature is responsible for all the . . . <
?What the hell is nature? Where did nature come from and how did it come to be?
It always was and always will be, No god required. Nature exists and demonstrably so. Natural processes are always at work creating. And it is the nature of energy that does it all. Energy cannot be created or destroyed. Therefore it probably always was and always will be in one form or other.
Aquinas noted that for there to be something now there would always have to have been something. He said that something was god. But what he did not know was that science would discover that all we are is energy. There is no other substance. Everything made of it and it is amazingly creative.
Nature or the nature of energy is a fact.. So while Aquinas was right about part of his ontological argument, he was wrong that there was only one answer. Since a conscious god is not a known fact and nature is, nature is thus far the best candidate for being god and being eternal.
S > God is not omnipotent and need this process and cannot do things in any other way, or god is omnipotent, could do things any way it wants to, and thereby cruel beyond belief. Those are the only two options open to you. <
Slarty, you are doing here what everyone fighting against God and slandering Christianity who I have every talked with does - you are saying "these are the only two possibilities that I can imagine, I can't come-up with any other option than these two - and so, the eternal God and all His creation must fit into either one or the other of what my own little 12" screen can see or I don't like it". It's the rationalists, the scientists, the realists, the free-thinkers, the unrestrained by religious dogma, the broad-minded, etc, who always come down to 'my way is the only way things could possibly be - so, God is mean and >unfair'.
So can you come up with any other possibility besides the idea that he can do no wrong and evil is actually good if god does it?
S > Life has been very good to me and I have not been abused by any one. I am giving you my opinion . . . <
>I easily accept that - and as I said, don't assume anything different for me simply because I see things differently . .
Very good. I try not to assume anything. ."Perhaps this is the very problem here. You haven't suffered devastation. You haven't had to search your mind for an answer that isn't available in the temporal...until, finally breaking down, you plunge onto psychological knees to cry out, "G'D if you're real, help me!" Your life has been, perhaps, a little too perfect, a little too ordered."
That's funny. I did not say I never had hardship. I've had my share. I've cried out. I've gotten answers. And yes they were from my own mind.
No I don't believe in satan. Evil is not a being it is intent and satan is really just an add on.
I find it funny when people tell me that's just what he wants me to think.
The Gnostic books tell us the Christian god is satan in disguise. They say it is you are being fooled by satan in to believing he is god. The real god is harder to reach because he gave earth to the devil and won't go back on his word.
So perhaps what I see of your god they saw too and decided they weren't going to be fooled by people who told then black was white and everything god does is good even if it is obviously evil.
Strangely there is a Babylonian god called Yew who was banished from heaven by Baal for telling his followers he was the only god and that other gods were demons. Could he be the Jewish god and hence your god? The real god's enemy?
If you believe in satan you see it everywhere. It should drive Christians mad far more often than it does.
So may the real god forgive you for being taken in the way you have been
Have a great day.
The Babylonians
Good point. I think that is certainly part of this story. But unless you are an unusual Christian that's not the sort of thinking Christians generally like.
It has been mentioned actually.
It's an interesting idea but don't you think the creator of the universe could have thought of a better way?
For instance: I don't believe a word of the story as told. So he failed to get my attention. Would an omnipotent god fail?
And it isn't because I do not want o believe, I can not believe because I have no evidence in front of me to suggest it is undeniably true.
A real god could let us all know in no uncertain terms that it exists without a doubt. To me all these excuses people give for the absence of their god or proof it exists are just that: excuses for an absent and probably nonexistent god.
I can not help but think that a real god could not and would fail to get our full and undivided attention all over the world all the same time. This entire idea of needing faith is a whitewash. You do not need to have faith in the existence of real things for them to be real. They are or they are not regardless of whether we believe they exist or not.
So if a god wants me it knows where to find me. I'll give it my undivided attention, It doesn't need theatrics or murder.Well...at least he got your attention long enough to ask the question in the first place
. There has to be enough there to give credit for the initial question! Perhaps the rest is left that way by the design of an omnipotent god.
I'm pretty sure God will find you...and get your undivided attention...at some point in your life. Each person has a different point and time...according to an omnipotent god. Probably has a lot to do with someones willingness to receive him in the first place...at a time that is best...for intersecting with your whole life. (which an omnipotenet god would know best. A god that sees from the beginning all the way to the end...at the same.)
The Bible puts alot of emphasis on seeking him first...and then you will find him...but you would have to believe that this is true...in order to start the ball rolling.
Anyways...that is my take on it...Peace!Yes. The Christian religion and it's premise certainly did get my attention. I was born and baptized Christian so I couldn't help noticing it. lol...
As for a god, I was and did want to be open to one and spent many years seeking him. In fact from age 6 to age 15 or 16, if I recall correctly. I've never stopped looking for answers but one of the answers I found was that there is probably no Christian style god at all.
So it has not been for lack of looking. But hey, you have to at some point just say, you know what? I don't think what I am looking for exists. You can't keep looking for nothing for ever. I'm now 56 years old and have still not found that god nor heard from it even though the door has always been open in some way.
I am a Pantheist. And as such I think the idea that nature is god is the best explanation thus far. God as defined as that which produced all things. I'm not saying it is absolutely the truth because I can't know that, just as you can not know your exists in reality and not just as an idea in the collective heads of all christians.
But there is evidence in science for that being the case. So for now unless your god show up and really gets my attention, I think nature itself as that which you call god has a high degree of probability.
Peace to you too.
You still have to show me where god gave you free choice or will. When was it given? Where is it written?
Since I do not believe in your god I can't hate that he made me because he didn't. I love life and the totality of existence. Life is meaningful because it is not eternal. Eternal life is cheep. I always wondered why you christians don't kill yourself to get to heaven quicker if you hate it so much here in this horrible sinful place.
I think it's great.
God new about it in advance, arranged it, and his word set the stage for it according to the "good book"
God made himself, became his own son and then murdered himself is the way it reads.It's your story, you work it out.
But you can't know that so....
It is a very strange thing to believe in, indeed.
Seems like you already have your mind made up,so there would be little point in changing it
Yes, but you might a pearl of wisdom I haven't heard.
Can't hurt you to try.Im working up to the pearls of wisdom ,so far I am worth far above rubies though
P.S I did answer a lengthy post back there someplace.. so I did try.Really? I'll look for it. Surpassed I missed it.
You digested it rather well. Both to the nonsense issue. Please continue. No bullets is fine with me.
thanks. at least we are expecting a nice conversation
that might help us find more answers. some reasons behind
the reasons that are given by bible schools and traditions.
lets expect some violent reactions from our readers here.
i know many people can't accept wrong opinion. lol
anyway, i don't have any "rock solid" answer.
i will just share my opinion based on the books
and some of the teachings that i have heard.
i am not going to give you the links or the names
of the books, because i can't. its been years
since i've read some of them.
Both to the nonsense issue.
1. issue on that omnipotence
2. why kill a good man for the bad ones
additional nonsense, possibly.. (just got this on my mind
when i read again your question)
3. why blood
4. why the Son
so i will be sharing some thoughts
on these 4 issues
===
my answer/opinion for each (i will just use the common
Bible since historians and some government accepts it)
again.. these are mixed with my opinion.
1. issue on that omnipotence
god is omnipotent but He can't totaly wipe out himself.
or He might be unwilling to to that. for me omnipotent means
god is unstoppable. the basis of all. call it infinite energy
or life source.
even though he is omnipotent, he can't go against
his own law/promises. unlike our existing government that the
laws can be edited by the existing officials. he can do some
work around but still his word has to be followed.
*oh my, since the 3 Persons can be tackled here
which could take libraries to prove right or to prove wrong.
this allows him to send one person while the other
is in a stable condition.
--we can skip that out for now
2. why kill a good man for the bad ones
-as far as i can remember the requirement for
the old testament sacirifice for the sins of the
people of israel are animal sacrifices. like birds,
rams, sheeps, etc. it is a must that all of the animals
are "without blemish".
the animals are not the sinners but they are dying in exchange
for the life of every person that the sacrifice is made for. for
the millions of the people there you can imagine the waste
of life of the animals for the people. in the long run you
can calculate it might not be sustainable.
even it will be sustainable, God is not
happy with the mindset that the people
are not able to hide from him. like this:
"we can do as we please because we have
enough animals to sacrifice"
so God decided that there will be one sacrifice
for the sins of the people inluding those outside
israel. in other words outsiders can join now.
the good thing is after this, the people will get
the Holy Spirit which will help them follow god
easier. the still small voice as called by others.
no animal sacrifices is needed anymore.
god said that he will write his law on the hearts
of the people, not on stone anymore (the tablets)
this is what the holy spirit is doing
this is the one time all in one bloodshed.
why not use a very good breed of cow or goat?
-it has to be human, it is not fair if its not experiencing
the same troubles as we have
--omg again. lets not expand the Holy Spirit questions here
3. why blood
why not use gold, oil, gems or public service to pay
for the sins. it is more convenient.
maybe.. since god is spirit, he want life in exchange
and not materials things which can be valued using
money.
till now we know that there is still no price
for someone's life, even though there are people
paying for the death of some. that is different.
in other ancient tribes, they are also using blood
of animals and people to drive away bad spirits
or ask protection from them.
it could be.. blood is very very important to God
because the life of a creature is in the blood.
this is why he don't want the blood to be eaten
instead, use it for atonement of sins.
4. why the Son
why not kings or wealthy virgins whom people
will simply throw on the mouth of some volcanoes.
or why not torture and crucify someone else.
it is because they are disqualified. they have
the violations/sins on their own making them
a sacrifice with their own "blemish".
the Son is said to be not been able to commit
any sin that makes him a sacrifice without blemish.
he do not have the original sin because
sin is being passed by the father. Eve was tempted
but sin entered the world through the man.
since the Son entered the world without
a biological father (Mary is a virgin when she got pregnant),
that made him qualified to the Lamb.
what the... your question is able make domino effect
to the other topics.Well thank you for you explanations and thoughts. Yes, all subjects end up being related so you drift from one to another. Like six degrees of separation. lol...
Omnipotence is impossible because there are always limits. This is shown by the old question: Can a god create something so heavy he can't lift it? He loses omnipotence no matter what the answer because there are limits to what anything can do.
So omnipotence is does not exist and can not exist. However, you could call it the most powerful thing that exists. No reason a god has to be omnipotent. The Jews did not see him that way. Not many cultures do see t heir gods as omnipotent.
But Christianity needs omnipotence so it can say god is not ruled by any laws himself. Obviously if he has limits he is ruled by laws like nature is, like energy is.
But Christianity doesn't like that. Yet it would perfectly explain the rest of our problems if god could not do life, existence, any other way. That would also take guilt from him.
But Christians insist on omnipotence so god must be directly responsible for all acts including ours because he knows all in advance even before we are born and he creates us the way he wants us. If we sin it is because he wants us to.
If he knows all in advance then there is no way for us to change anything and we have no free will. Not because he knows the future with absolute certainty, but because it can be known. If e can change it then it can not be known with certainty even by a god. this is a paradox Christianity has created for itself but doesn't understand.
So you see the problems with omnipotence and the rest of the dogma of Christianity. It would be much simpler for Christianity if it dropped that idea. But it is too late.
Again, the rest of the problem is explained in t he same way. If a god can do anything then the way he chooses to do things can be seen as either moral or immoral. If he is ruled by laws then he can only do things one way like nature does."But Christians insist on omnipotence so god must be directly responsible for all acts including ours because he knows all in advance even before we are born and he creates us the way he wants us. If we sin it is because he wants us to."
-->i have met a lot of people like this. blaming God all the time.
in the bible it is said that God does not tempt people.
"So you see the problems with omnipotence and the rest of the dogma of Christianity. It would be much simpler for Christianity if it dropped that idea. But it is too late."
-->maybe changing the definition of "omnipotence" is a good idea.
in my denomination, omnipotence is means all powerful. same
like what you said, the most powerful. God can do everything what
he wants
but He can't lie (it's a sin). because He knows everything, he can't learn.
--> there are thousands, if I'm updated, of Christian denominations
around the world. they are creating their own interpretations
and even bible versions. i admit, its frustrating to meet
people in the same faith using the same words but have
a very far definition.
"If he is ruled by laws then he can only do things one way like nature does."
-->yes. even though he created the rules he does not violate it.
he can't make 3 + 3 = 5. it is always 6
in my denomination, even though there are things that
He will not do or can't do, he is still omnipotent (most powerful)
i might assume you have met Christians from different
denominations, especially those who have their own
versions of scriptures.
out of topic
like one denomination that i know that have
different interpretation on one of the
ten commandments. they can make their members
worship idols/false images of god because of their
created interpretation.
we have shared our thoughts and i can't
see anything weird or non biblical with your reasoning.
(based on my denomination)
you know about the blood, sacrifice,
the right view of gods power, and the
freedom that he is giving everyone of us
to choose the path that we like.
our big problem is how omnipotence
is being taught by different Christian denominations
and the way they reason out based on
tradition.
for us God is omnipotent and
a God of order. he does not demonstrate
power by violating laws. we have a serious
problem in the word "omnipotence"
the way it is defined and explained varies a lot.
Good point. But that is how religions are built.
GOD did this to demonstrate sacrifice. That he was willing to sacrifice his own son for the sins of man. That man should recognize this sacrifice, and live their life according to his word. This is almost incomprehensible, because direct human sacrifice is practically non existent. One can scarcely fathom that a man would consciously sacrifice his own life for the benefit of others.
I prefer Jewish translations of the OT.
I understand your idea of what the word means.Thanks for the link, that wasn't one of the resources I've seen before... more and more things to learn about every day
I'm on a journey toward financial independence... when I reach that point, Hebrew and Aramaic are two languages I definitely need to learn.
That reminds me of a guy who also made similar predictions.
"Harold Camping Is Not Sorry
He wasn’t wrong, he says: God was."
http://www.religiondispatches.org/archi … _not_sorry
God's word sais that 'we are to give an answer for the hope that we have' 1 Peter 3:15. ok Slarty I have an answer for you. You might not like it, you might not accept it, but its an answer and its up to you whether its something worth meditating on. God did not order his son to be murdered. He was the 'messiah'. God sent his son to die on our behalf. But in scripture it also reads in Matthew 20:28 “The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many” He volunteered so God sent him. In the context of your question it appears that you believe that God took him by the throat and forced him to be murdered. God is a loving God and part of that love was that His son would die but not limited to death he would rise up from the grave and be given 'the name above all names'....the name of Jesus. I hope this answers your question, and if it does not, then ask God to manifest Himself to you, and He will. It wont always how we want, or in ways that we expect but in the end God is sovereign. He's on the throne no matter what we say or do and your question is an obvious suggestion that you would like to know more about it.
Hope it works out and happy hubbing Slarty!!
Come in spinner!
Let me be first!
Because he is omniscient he can overcome his own omnipotence?Agreed! Just decided to have a bit of fun with it.
I need sleep...... enjoy your thread!
buddy, so confused again
:Not surprising Kimberly. It is always confusing in here.
Wishing you well. 
off to sleep
you sleep well and dream in colour!
- Emile Rposted 12 years ago
0I'm not a theist. I'm a realist.
And how is claiming that a god did anything being a realist?
I don't make that claim. However; the argument is reasonable, depending on the angle. You choose to argue one angle, so therefore chose not to consider their logic. Without being able to approach a subject openmindedly you can't expect a productive dialogue. But, you probably already knew that.
Religion is man-made and therefore screwed up. Get over it.
I don't know about that. I think it's a simple case of evangelical atheism. Evangelicals on both sides tend to suspend good manners in their quest for their version of the greater good.
It's all about the love.
Hey Slarty,
Many people make up their own definition of a god. So, what's the point? Before you can actually converse with someone about the god they supposed believe in, you must find out what exactly they believe. I mean, come on, even Christians cannot agree that other people are Christians, simply based on what is believed.
Well that's true. But no worries. I don't think I need to figure out which god they believe in since this particular myth is specific to Christians. Other religions don't believe it and it is not part of their myth.
So this only applies to Christians.
I am not interested so much in which variety of Christian takes up the challenge. It is irrelevant . They can individually either come up with a logical answer or not.Nop. I won't cal you anything. You made your point and I accept it.
I read the scriptures for myself. What I found was a psychotic murderer.
Murdering his own son was only a tiny part of the story. He also wiped out all life around him whenever he had one of his fits of rage. A very unstable invisible mythical monster this god thing!
"We really need to stop this crap."
Mr. O'Brian,
I like you. For this reason, I would really love to give your question a valiant effort. I just doubt I can do it in a few paragraphs or even a post as 'short' as the posts you've read so far. As you so appropriately hinted, I do have a tendency to be wordy.
But, I like you. I think there is much more to you for which many have given you credit. Don't get me wrong... I knew there was... I was hoping... that you would present that eloquent side of yourself on this board. Perhaps, you have on other posts/threads, but I haven't read more than a handful of posts on only two threads.
If you will be patient with me, I will try to squeeze something into ... oh... say... only thirty or forty paragraphs... sometime in the near future... no promises though. This subject means so very much to me and I will only share if I can do so concisely...
LOL
G'D BLESS you, Sir.Ok, my friend. I have a suggestion for you. Since it is going to be a long essay why don't make it in to a hub? I am sure others would benefit from your explanation. And then we can have chat about it in the comment section of the hub.
I am now following you so that if you decide to do such a hub I will be notified.
May you have a wonderful day.Thank you so very much, kind Sir.
I've just submitted my first Hub Page. However, I didn't realize revisions would have a time limit so it doesn't end as I would have liked. Perhaps you wlll be one of the first to read my first... and 'shortest' entry in anything "hub" thus far.
I was not suggesting that you were full of faults - by insult an idiot - I mean the various flat earthers who post their ridiculous beliefs, the occasional hate spewing, bigoted, right wing so called christian and other half-wits who come here to have their lack of reasoning insulted by anyone able to think past the first full stop.
Welcome to hubpages
Hey Jkmm k!
You say, "I wish I was like other Christians and did not have all the questions".
Please NEVER NEVER NEVER become like any Christian who does not have questions. There's no room in life for such arrogance. Faith is not about not having questions. Think about it.
How can anyone resolve the many internal struggles that formulate in the brain without a question and a resolution?
You won't always find the answer you're looking for. That's what prompts so many people to be angry with G'D. Sometimes, you will find answers that cause you to wrestle with who you are and why you are that way. Still, in His Goodness G'D has given each of us one thing that most people forget He Gave us when they discuss Him: Free Will.
We have choices. We can decide to work on the relationship with Him that, yes, He allowed His Son to die in order to provide humankind. The truth about relationships is that they won't work unless you invest yourself into them. Not many people are willing to do that anymore, with people they see, let alone a G'D they are unsure even exists.
Some questions will seem irrational. Some of the answers you come up with on your own will seem impossible. Often, the two will never converge. However, in those moments, when reading your Bible, The Holy Spirit opens up certain truths to you, you will find yourself one step closer, one heartbeat nearer to understanding that, while we cannot possibly understand this G'D Who is so much greater than any human can conceive, He has also made a choice: to be our friend, despite the unequal terms.
He's Holy. We're not. He know it. We have to discover it.
You say, "the bible says it is impossible to please God without faith, and I sometimes wonder if he is upset with me for questioning so much."
He's not upset with you. He wants you to ask. That's why He made you as He did, with all those questions swimming around in that head of yours. He gave you a brain and He means for you to use it. Do that.
You say: "I am disabled and struggling financially, I have been praying for healing and prosperity. When you don't recieve it, some religious leaders believe it's because of a lack of faith."
I say:
Continue praying, but never let others tell you that the fact that you haven't received healing is because you don't have that faith. If they do, ask them about their faith. If they are so faithful and spiritual and strong, then why can't they help you discover the truths that will make you more faithful, more spiritual, more strong?
You see, many leaders don't follow what they preach. Some are so superficial in their own walk with G'D that they should simply give up their position and go to work in the real world.
Don't get me wrong. There are many spiritual leaders who are sincere, but they haven't reached the place where they understand what it takes to receive something as powerful and life changing as "healing" has the potential to be.
I am believing G'D for a healing for my child.
Does it mean she/I will receive this most amazing gift? Only time will tell, but I've decided not to base my faith on whether or not we get what we've asked. G'D IS more than capable to answer our prayers (yours/ours). Sometimes though, He has a purpose beyond our own. What might that be? I couldn't say. I wouldn't think of it. More than this, I'm working on investing as much of myself into understanding the precepts relating to Divine Healing as possible. Yes. I believe G'D Wants us healthy, but we live in a fallen world. There's more to healing than most of us understand. I'm working on scratching the surface. I will share some of the insights absorbed with you, if you like, but not on a Forum.
You ask: "...if God loves us and wants us to be healthy and have an abundant life, when you're trying the best you know how or can, why doesn't he just grant the prayers?"
If He did, if He always granted the prayers anyone and everyone plead, would it be accredited to Him? Or would the world become more full of arrogant, self-indulgent, vain, and other such virtueless hearts?
If you would like to take some time to seriously (and I'm not saying you haven't seriously done so before) search your heart, considering the many times/ways/reasons to be mad at G'D as a result of your disability, then take the time to lay that all out on the table before Him.
I went through this. Sometimes, our anger blocks us from interacting with G'D, bringing us to feel distant, alone, afraid. All the while, He's right beside us, desiring to help us break out of our prison. ... and Jkmm k... prisons come in many forms. Sometimes what is a prison for most brings release to others.
You say, "Other Christians seem to be able to keep a more positive attitude, so it make me feel like something is wrong with me."
Many Christians "put on a happy face" because they've been led to believe that they have to show the world they're complete because of their faith. They forget that they're only human, have only ever been human, and are only expected to ever be human. No one has a perfect life. Such a life does not exist. Everyone has challenges, some are present, some are past, some are continuous. Everyone has a choice. Some bury their hurts. Others carry them out in their daily applications. Many become misled because they never deal with them. Don't be one of those. Deal with your hurts. Ask your questions. Be determined to receive your answer. You may get one.
You say, "I should probably hush because I know these discussions irritate others, and that is not my intention."
Dearest Broken Heart, why do you care if our (yours/mine) discussion is irritating others? Right now, we're discussing something we consider important. When you're a little older you won't mind stepping on toes so much, because you'll realize that each time you 'hush' up, you are reacting to them stepping on yours.
G'D BLESS you.
BTW: I don't have time to check for typos... ignore them please.
- scholarly and I haven't even seen it
Excellent time to disappear, good timing.
Now about that megalomanic threat?
After 3 years I am still waiting for any of you fundies to answer anything directly and truthfully.No, there's reality. You know what reality is brothery.
Life without invisible sky fairies and the people who still believe in them.
I wish there was a way you say that with certainty without lying. You no more know with certainty that a god exists than I know it doesn't and you try to pawn off speculation as fact. Isn't lying a sin?
- Emile Rposted 12 years ago0
PRAISED ATHEISM! I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT!
Not really. But you seem on a roll tonight and I want you to think you are doing well. It's in the book!
God's Murders for Stupid Reasons:
Kill Brats
From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)
God Kills the Curious
And he smote of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of Jehovah, he smote of the people seventy men, `and' fifty thousand men; and the people mourned, because Jehovah had smitten the people with a great slaughter. And the men of Beth-shemesh said, Who is able to stand before Jehovah, this holy God? and to whom shall he go up from us? (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)
Killed by a Lion
Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, "Strike me!" But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me." And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him. (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT)
Killing the Good Samaritan
The ark of God was placed on a new cart and taken away from the house of Abinadab on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab guided the cart, with Ahio walking before it, while David and all the Israelites made merry before the Lord with all their strength, with singing and with citharas, harps, tambourines, sistrums, and cymbals.
When they came to the threshing floor of Nodan, Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God to steady it, for the oxen were making it tip. But the Lord was angry with Uzzah; God struck him on that spot, and he died there before God. (2 Samuel 6:3-7 NAB)
Silly neurotic little god!You couldn't make this stuff up. .... Well, actually, that's exactly what happened.
There were a few Greeks who wrote exactly that in 600 BCE
I found this link to an article written about the times by A.A.A. Webb that is interesting.
http://phoenicia.org/greek.html
I hope God will kill those who mocked Him...hahaha
How incredibly charitable of you!
So you hope all the people who don't believe as you do die?
Nice!
Very christian of you!I did no such thing. Every word is from your bible!
Are you going to deny that too?
According to your good book he has killed more than any other entity known!Zeus is a myth. Just like your god.
Yah
Thank God for that!
Ok, According to you I am on the side of what exactly.
Your god, your bibles words, how in hell can you twist your way out of that I wonder.
Certainly not with the explanation that god didn't cause as many rapes as the "unbelievers" do.
That is among the worst rational I have ever seen, even here!
excellent suumary
Brilliant! Neither of you have bothered to know anything at all about me obviously.
Your opinion of me is therefore irrelevant.What the hell would you know about me exactly?
When you want to attack someone at least have the brains to read about them first so you know you are not making a complete fool of yourself.
ad hominem:
Or "at the man". Typically used in argumentum ad hominem, a logical fallacy consisting of criticizing a person when the subject of debate is the person's ideas or argument, on the mistaken assumption that the soundness of an argument is dependent on the qualities of the proponent.
Self affirmation lovely! Hardly evidence of anything is it?
As usual, bull by tail thinking.
Religion is where the promotion of all the killing comes from!I disagree with you as does the data.
I respect your findings but they are myopic in all ramifications...i was born and bred in one of the countries you sited above. The causes of religious war there are politically motivated idea using religion as the cover up. You need to think more for this one you(silver pen) failed breaking all your bones .
I agree with Sam. Would you deny all of these are religiously driven?
I have no idea what the silver pen or failed breaking all my bones means.
It's simple if god made man it is his fault completely.
A carpenter doesn't blame the chair for being badly made when he made it.
It's a pile.Have you any idea how many of these jesuses died for our sins?
Read more.Highly unlikely!
I have faced death without resorting to an invisible myth.I did die once. It wasn't final though.
No fact. I don't do fiction as truth, that is a religious concept.
Yes "All the world is queer except for me and thee....... and sometimes I fear thou art a little queer." or something like that.
What is escapist in capitals got to do with anything?
Or are you just throwing insults out as arguments?
Yes. That's certainly true. Myths and history are fun aren't they?
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