Did God create evil?

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Hauntyposted 12 years ago
In the Biblical creation story, the world is wholly good and is governed by a wholly good God. But the ancient Israelites, who originally put the story on paper, read it in an entirely different way than Christians do today.

We read the story today as it is told by St. Paul in his New Testament letters of Adam and Eve and of Genesis. Here, Satan, in the guise of a serpent, creates all evil in the world that God created wholly good and ordered out of nothing. When Adam and Eve fall, they inaugurate the history of evil.

However, the people of the time understood the Fall as an event in which Adam and Eve not so much brought evil into the world, but rather only actualized it in a setting in which it already existed. In other words, in the creation of God, the potential of evil was already present.

So the question is this: Was the world created wholly good or was evil already present in it? Why is the tree that triggers the Fall there in the garden at all?
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Evil was not created by God directly. Will try to be simple.
  
  In the military the authority takes responsibility for subordinate's actions, even if they weren't preventable the solution, if one is plausible and possible, is expected to be carried out by the direct leader if capable, and each takes responsibility up the chain to the top authority. [exception in Obama's case who will essentially pass the blame, sad]
  
  God the creator in simple terms created an intelligent drawing machine, instead of just drawing himself. Then other drawing machines.
  
  Then one of the drawing machines drew something bad that caused 1/3 of the intelligent drawing machines to create bad drawings as well.
  
  It's an indirect result of delegated power.
  
  God takes responsibility and rewards those who take pain due to the culprits err highly, while He is solving the problem.
  
  The harshest winters bring forth the most abundant crops, and in like manner those who are to take part in the pain will share in the pleasures of being loyal and good to fellow beings and their creator.
  
  The details are fuzzy for us, but a child rarely is aware of the parent's reasoning and often times feels the parent is wronging them when that is not the case at all. The parent may have to let the child suffer in order for the child to overcome something, yet most often that child is rewarded twice by accomplishment's joy, and by the parent for doing so well and trusting the parent.
  
  The elements on the eternal portion in space away from fallen humanity still follow laws perfectly without any error. No curse, no mistakes.
  
  The things in this world related to humanity, cursed by breaking laws set for good reasons, are filled with mistakes and mistakes, such as stubbing your toe, cause pain. It has become built into the fabric and spread like disease just like a smile is spread from person to person or hostility spouts more hostility.
  
  There is not a reaction on the sun that doesn't occur exactly as designed forming energy flawlessly for us to live.
  
  If the elements within the sun did not react correctly and follow laws correctly as designed, it would cease to function and life would die on earth.
  
  Therefore, laws, are immensely important and are not to be broken.
  
  They are not put in place to chain one down, but to free all within a particular system creating equal distribution and no loss of profit, happiness, or pleasure, thereby dissolving all pain.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well put.
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  iamageniusterposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Good answer. I like it.
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  whomeverposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Isaiah 45:7 in the King James Version reads, “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Evil is the absence of reason and the Bible contradicts and makes a hypocrite of it's self by creating a hell of nonsense, just because God love you. They creating it like we created over taxing, in order to control the masses and to make more fruitful babies which makes our world over crowded in which we fight each other for space and then church police arrive to save the day again and again and so on
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  In what way? The Bible is not purely a creation of man. No man would have ever created God.
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What about all the other 10,000 Gods or God, were they not create by man?
  
  For what good reason do you know your God is the one and only way to live while all other Gods are liars or demons?
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Because my God is unlike any of the others.
  
  And because He spoke to me, none of the others did.
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Was it that quite little voice inside your head?
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Nope.
  
  In the heart.
  
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So, most of the world's population didn't get their heart transplant with the brand name of Jesus on it
  
  Yahweh is not working hard enough to make most people aware of him on this planet earth
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  How do you know?
  
  The fact is that most people are aware of Him. Not everyone, but the great majority have certainly heard about Jesus.
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  brittvan22posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Wow Castlepaloma!
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well, I did travel over this planet several times and most people do not know anything about Jesus, He was only one man in the whole of human history. At one time the Beatles were more popular than Jesus
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  brittvan22posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Wow you have a unique way of looking at things to say the least. So how do you feel about God (El, Elohoim, YHWH, Yahweh, Jehoviah, Allah) take your pick? Why do you have such a lowly view on Christianity or is it Jesus?
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That of course was the famous, and (probably unintentionally) antagonistic statement made by John Lennon. What John didn't take into account is that, whether or not the Beatles actually were more popular than Jesus at any given point in history, they have never been more influential on history, both directly and indirectly, than Jesus.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Correct. Christians were upset with Lennon, but he wasn't saying the beatles were more influential, just more popular. More people at the time know of the beatles then did Jesus.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  True. From my point of view, sad, but still true.
  
  I heard a story that John called the 700 Club and prayed just a couple of days before he died. I have a bit of difficulty believing it (for one thing, not so much because of John but because the 700 Club has always been eager to trot out even the most minor celebrity who they can connect themselves with) and I've only heard one source, so I'm just saying I heard it.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ha, do you think the 700 Club would lie? They can say anything they want after the guy is dead because he can't deny it. Don't get me started on the 700 Club!
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  There's a reason I didn't cite the 700 Club as the source.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The heart in not capable of thought. Must be in the head, but I know what you mean. It's emotional and not rational. Is that it?
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  Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Whether we believe that God done it, or not. How rational is it to believe that everything which IS; came from nothing.
  
  Maybe this is the origin of all irrational beliefs?
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No matter how you look at it everything that IS, came from nothing. You can't say "we can't evolve from nothing therefore God did it" because the next question is "where did God come from". Same problem.
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  Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly! that is irrational.
  
  And to think that nothing gathered itself together ... a whole lot of nothing! Then all of that nothing compacted itself so tightly that it finally exploded forever outwardly.
  
  Both ideas are a bit irrational if you ask me.
  There just might be another explination?
  
  Don't intend any disrespect to anyone but both ideas are irrational.
  
  Edit which raises the question, where did all of that nothing come from.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Indeed...
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly! Where did it come from?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So - you know there was a time when it was not there? How do you know this exactly?
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  Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I am thinking that that statement presuposes facts that are not yet in.
  
  Is there a choice of "C" in this multipal choice question?
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The truth is we have no idea how we ended up here on this little rock on the outer end of a rather large galaxy. We have some of our best minds on it and I'm certainly not one of them. How we got here, who cares? We just are.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah and that's one of the things we take by faith. Of course, if you know God, taking it on faith is not as hard, but when the Bible says that God is eternal, from "everlasting to everlasting," that's hard to wrap your mind around.
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The most incomprehensible thing about earth and the Universe is that it is comprehensible. We go with what we know best until it is disproved then we improve upon getting a closer understanding rather than being lost in space with Jesus.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Being with Jesus is anything but lost in space!
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  OK , what dose Jesus look like?
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ah, back to that one. I remember when I first started telling people that I heard from God, a bunch of atheists started joking that I should know what Jesus looked like and theorizing that He was tall, blond, Germanic looking.
  
  I'll know what Jesus looks like when I get to Heaven. If I don't get there, I'll never know. It's not important.
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If you don't know your aim in life, you will not get there.
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Metaphorically I think of the heart as a source of good intention. Jesus is the champion of soul taking in which I don't feel or think it is a healthy way for me.
  
  I can not speak for someone else and yet think it's fine if they keep Jesus to their own personal selves, But they can't, because they are trained to save your soul too, so please christian don't steal my soul, it's all I have.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  There was no voice. I wrote a Hub about my experiences. I don't do this to promote my Hubs, but because it's just so much easier to point people to it than to write the same novella over and over again.
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  cruelkindnessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The only fact that is certain is man created the story of Adam and Eve which everything else follows suit. Have you ever heard the saying
  
  "hear no evil, see no evil"
  
  We only believe in the unknown simply because we hear about it so we start to truly believe it if you hear it enough. I'm sure you can remember when you were a kid and there was a moment in time were you truly believed there was a Santa Clause, Tooth Fairy, or what ever supernatural creature your parents told you about .
  
  I believe we as people drew the line in the sand to create good and evil. With that said given these choices sparks curiosity of the road forbidden.
  
  I'm just sayin
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  There's an inherent flaw in your logic, which is that many people hear things over and over again that they don't believe.
  
  I used to believe in the Tabula Rasa theory, that humans were born as blank slates, but if that were true then half the people who argue atheism in these forums would argue for Christianity and half the people who argue for faith would argue for at least agnosticism (like me!)
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  cruelkindnessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Beautiful thing is people still believe Tabula Rasa theory. Point is its easy to convince a believe that can not be proven.
  
  The big questions is
  
  "What if were all wrong?"
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That depends on how big a net you're casting with that word, "we."
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I am a agnosticist
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  cruelkindnessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well we do know
  
  Jesus was a hippy
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Martin Luther said, "The devil is God's devil," meaning that although there is evil in the world, satan can only go as far as God allows.
  
  There is a strain of thinking in Evangelical circles that I think is not very different from what you described.
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  DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Did God create everything or not? Is God the only God or not?
  
  If God created everything, then you have your answer...
  
  If God is the only one...Then you have your answer...
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  Hauntyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Makes sense! The problem is I still don't have no answers, as I don't believe a thing that's said in the Bible...
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You may want to refer to Isaiah 45:7.
  
  I create good and evil, I the lord did all these things.
  
  The bible claims that god admits creating evil, but that's just what the bible says...
  
  I find it very interesting in fact that most christians choose to ignore this verse in favour of other contradictory verses.
  
  It is almost as if they are choosing the verses that they like the best.
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  This statement was isaiah's repost to the babylonian pantheon in which good was attributed to one set of gods and evil attributed to another set. In fact many Christians still do this today by statements that all evil comes fom Satan as if it was another god.
  
  This verse in Isaiah is also translated as calamity. Isaiah was saying that life's ills and calamities are often sent by God for the purposes of redirection of humanity. Overall, even the 'evil' that comes from God ultimately is intended for good.
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I am fairly sure it doesn't say that in the chapter of Isaiah. Did you infer that from somewhere?
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I probably read it in a Jewish commentary, but it makes perfect sense to me all the same.
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  Hauntyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What happens if I choose to ignore the whole Bible precisely because it has proven to be forgery and a perverted version of earlier myth?
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Gotta wait 'til death to see if you're right then.
  
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If you chose to do that it would bear no relevance on my post whatsoever.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ignorance of the Bible is almost as widespread within Christ's church as it is without.
  
  But just because people can quote Scripture doesn't always mean they understnd it.
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  HeadlyvonNogginposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Here's my take, for what it's worth ...
  
  Evil is made possible through free will. Free will is a will apart from God's. A world that wholly conforms to God's will is a world without evil. The introduction of free will through Adam and Eve introduced the potential for evil into the world. Not all actions taken through free will are evil, but because the will is truly free, it is capable of taking evil actions as well.
  
  Adam was God's introduction of free will into an already established, already populated planet. Genesis 1 describes all of creation conforming exactly to God's will. At the completion of each command given, God would look on it and deem it 'good'. This includes the humans at the end. Just as homo sapiens actually did, the humans at the end of Genesis 1 were told to multiply, fill/subdue the earth, and establish dominance in the animal kingdom.
  
  In Genesis 2 God forms Adam. Here He does not tell Adam what to do, only what not to do. And he did it anyway. By generation 2 you have murder. The whole rest of the bible illustrates the complete inability of humans from Adam forward to adhere to God's will. This is not something God would deem 'good', and there's no way humans ever would have accomplished what was commanded of them, which took numerous generations to realize, if free will already existed.
  
  The inclusion of the tree of knowledge was not to test Adam so that God could see what he would do. God knew what Adam would do. The tree was placed there to illustrate to humanity that this being, unlike anything else God created before, was capable of directly defying God's will. That's what was significant about him and everyone born of Eve.
  
  This is why the flood didn't have to cover the entire planet. Free will only existed in a small region of the world 10 generations in, so only these humans were even capable of 'wickedness'. After that Genesis describes descendants of Noah, each having free will because they were 'of Eve' as well, dispersed throughout the world. Like planting seeds. Noah's descendants were dispersed into a world already populated by humans, only humans with no individual will to propel them to do anything more than what was specifically asked in Genesis 1.
  
  Humans with free will, on the other hand, are capable of creation of anything they can imagine ....
  
  Genesis 11:6 - And the Lord said, “Behold, the people are one and they have all one language, and this they begin to do; and now nothing will be withheld from them which they have imagined to do.
  
  The dawn of civilization that followed is the direct result of free will. Humans began inventing tools and developing practices that forever changed how humanity exists on this planet from that point forward.
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  Hauntyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  All of what you said makes my head spin right now, even though all of it makes perfect sense except this bit.
  
  If God made the tree to teach us a lesson, why so severe the punishment? I mean if you know the Bible you know that God recounts an immense list of ways humans will be punished. Very severe and cruel punishment for proving Him right.
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  HeadlyvonNogginposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Right, and what does that tell us? He can ask us nicely, we'll still do it. He can command it, we'll still do it. He can threaten us, we'll still do it. It's the nature of free will. Just like a child, you can tell them until you're blue in the face how they are to behave. They're not going to do it. You can be stern. You can intimidate. Threaten spankings or groundings or whatever. They're still not going to live according to your will. The only way free willed beings learn is by doing. Through experience. Wisdom can't be given. It must be earned.
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  ptosisposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "Randomness or chaos does not imply free will - even if disguised as the "God Particle" of quantum physics." - http://hubpages.com/t/2c1cd5
  
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Fortunately, the universe itself runs on laws [of physics, etc], so I suppose all of existence is subject to a power for good reason.
  
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  Ruben Riveraposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Why make it so complicated?????
  
  Very simple, man has created the concept of evil, one region of the world thinks evil is one thing, the other half thinks it's something else.
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  Roland L Dayeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  For an alternate view on this subject, I highly recommend "The Thousand-Mile Summer: in desert and high sierra" by Colin Fletcher. It's not a super famous book, but it's well-known in some circles. I guess you could call it a cult classic. It's just about how, in 1958, the author (Fletcher) hiked along the entire eastern edge of California, traversing across the Colorado River, Death Valley, and the High Sierra. It sounds like a pretty basic plot, but there's a lot more to it than that. He says a lot of really interesting things about everything under the sun, only to relate it back to nature. Some of the most wonderful things he has to say are about religion, politics, and philosophy. In response to your post, Fletcher writes:
  
  "God is light, we are told, and Hell is outer darkness. But look at a desert mountain stripped bare by the sun, and you learn only geography. Watch darkness claim it, and for a moment you may grasp why God had to create Satan--or man to create both."
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
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  Don Wposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Your question seems to be, how do Christians reconcile the apparent contradiction between a world where there is a potential to do evil, and a world that is supposedly wholly good?
  
  From what I gather about Christianity, the possibility to do evil exists as a consequence of free will. The argument goes that good done in a world where there is the possibility to do evil, is greater than good done in a world where evil can't be done. So a world created by the Judeo-Christian god (who is perfectly good by definition) will consist of the greater good, i.e. good done freely.
  
  Why is the tree that triggers the fall in the garden at all? Do you mean why give the choice between good and evil in the first place? A Christian might argue the choice exists because a world where people have no choice but to be good, is less good than a world where people can freely choose to be good. In that sense there is no contradiction calling the world wholly good while the possibility to do evil exists, because such a world is greater in goodness than a world where the possibility to do evil does not exist.
  
  If you're not aware, this is an area of religious philosophy known as The Problem of Evil and has kept philosophers and theologians pondering and debating for centuries.
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  Hauntyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I understand that you're saying the temptation to do evil is sort of a test for us humans. Also, if there was no such thing as evil we could never truly have the choice to be good.
  
  Are you familiar with the Milgram experiment and similar scientific experiments that followed it? They say that about 2/3 of humans will do evil (torture and kill a man) given the right sequence of prods from an authority figure. This experiment was done over and over in different settings and the number seems to be a constant, which kind of tells me we are what we are.
  
  Another experiment (Libet) and other neuroscientific studies seem to suggest we might not possess free will at all.
  
  I have a hard time reconciling the two sides.
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  Don Wposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I've heard of that experiment. The idea human beings have a tendency to do evil is not new. However Christianity is good at assimilating ideas. In a Christian context, the tendency for humans to do evil today is explained as 'original sin'. The idea being that what we see now is not our true nature, but some broken version of that resulted from 'the fall'. It that can be restored if we do whatever Christianity says we should. For Christians I'm guessing the experiment is just a demonstration of our fallen nature.
  
  As for free will. David Hume called it "the most contentious question of metaphysics" so not a small subject. Schrödinger believed we have it, Hawkins believes it's an illusion. Work in neuroscience is still developing. Whatever the case may be Christianity has evolved and matured so much over time, that its virtually unassailable with anything less than irrefutable disproof of its core tenets. Not sure the work in neuroscience will do anything to change that. Christianity seems to be the ultimate evolving idea, a viral campaign that has persisted like no other. Don't know what means in the long run, but just as a set of ideas, and a social phenomenon, Christianity it's truly fascinating.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Seriously? I've been a Christian for 23 years and pretty into the theology and history, and I've never heard that one before.
  
  Who says that?
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  Don Wposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Spoken to other Christians and that's my understanding of the Christian concept of 'original sin'. Be interested in your understanding of the concept, and whether it is's part of the branch of Christianity you follow.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Indeed, including Martin Luther among others. You've actually stated the case pretty well. It's an extension of the argument about why God didn't simply make us robots, the answer being if you can't choose not to love somebody, then you can't really love them. Yes there is a kind of love which is not really all that different than slavish devotion, but we wouldn't truly be human if we were only ever capable of that. And God did create us as humans, not automatons.
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  jacharlessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Haunty,
  The tree of Knowledge was in man from the beginning of his creation.
  A powerful tool, that allowed him to be/do, without being subjected to the elements within. "Eating" of those elements within -define as Knowledge- caused him to become a slave to his own consciousness/thoughts. In essence, he went mad.
  
  Note how it says because both the Tree of Life AND Tree of Knowledge {consciousness} were there. When man ate of knowledge, should he have eaten of the Tree of Life afterward, the effect would have been disastrous: never ending madness. Thus, the Tree of Life {also in him} was sealed off until a thorough cleaning of consciousness/knowledge would happen.
  
  James.
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Interesting statement.
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  jacharlessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks Ray. Apparently no one shares that sentiment. lol.
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  Slarty O'Brianposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Good and evil are not things to be created. They are measured by intent. Doing intentional harm is evil. Doing intentional kindness is good.
  
  Without intent no measure of good or evil can be made of an act. Benefit may come indirectly from it for someone, or harm may come to someone. But without intent shit just happens according to cause and effect. No god required for any of it.
  
  The tree in the ancient story is older than the story the Jews told. Trees and trees that were gods played an important part in Sumerian myths before the Jews existed as a distinct group in the region.
  
  In Sumer they found a seal. It's a metal cylinder with a picture of a tree with fruit on it. There is also a snake in the tree, and a goddess is reaching out to pick the fruit with a god looking on. The bible story is just a reworking of an ancient Sumerian myth. I wouldn't put too much stock in it being the a story of an actual event in history.
  
  Probably a mistake.
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  brittvan22posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The answer depends on which creation story you buy. There are at least three creation stories I know of. Which writer do you buy the J,E,P, or D. J being Yahwesit, E being Elohist, P being Priestly, and D being Deuternomic. There is the understanding that creation came out of nothing and then there is God brought order to chaos. There is whether or not Eve was the first woman or Lilith? There is was God El or Elohoim, El is singular and Elohoim is plural meaning God. Then the issue of sin are we innately evil by nature and victims of concupiscence or is creation good and have the ability to good or bad. Then, they brings you to do we have free will or has our destiny already been decided? Do we believe in Grace, Works, Grace and Works, Grace first then works? When you have the answers to those debatable issue that have dawned Christianity before Augustine, you will have your answer. I think for each of us the answer varies and that is ok. We do not all have to agree. The text has been touched by some many hands, things have been edited, copied, translated, passed out, tampered with, at the end of the day it is a text/manuscript. It is useful to some and eludes others, it speaks to people differently. You can literally preach 10 different messages off of one scripture, maybe its meant to be that way. I would recommend do not be a enslaved by the text find liberation if you can and a fulfilling relationship with God, Father, Mother, El, Jehoviah or YHWH.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Just for the "faith" and "grace" thing.
  
  It's by the grace of God.
  
  Through Christ.
  
  Obtained by faith in Christ.
  
  Faith shown through works.
  
  The principle is a gift from God of salvation through Christ obtained by true faith in Jesus Christ which IF said faith is true then it will reveal itself in the good things you do because of the faith you have in God.
  
  Kind of like, "actions speak louder than words."
  
  Or, a person says they believe the bungee cord won't break, but they refuse to jump. If they believed what they said about the cord, they'd jump.
  
  It is simply saying, that if you truly have faith it will show in your actions. Just like if you love someone, you will do things that someone who loves another person would do for them.
  
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  brittvan22posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So do you subscribe to irrestible grace that causes you to do works? Or grace and works, but grace first. So you see salvation as a gift and not the ransom explanation,more of a forensic view of salvation. With your last statement on faith, how does one measure faith?
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  brittvan22posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I asked how do you measure faith because you seem to be saying it is measured by actions. Does that apply for handicapped people, people with mental disabilities, babies, women, men, everyone, soldiers? In essence love is what love does?
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Faith is in your heart. If I have faith in a chair, my actions "prove" the faith I have in the chair when I sit down without doing a 72 point inspection first.
  
  Faith is trust in someone or something. If you don't trust something it shows. Faith just means you trust whatever it is completely.
  
  Your actions don't "make" the faith, they are just products of you ACTUALLY having faith.
  
  If you DON'T have faith in the chair I spoke of, then you would hesitate, check the legs, the back, the arms, and maybe then you'd sit down - really slowly. That SHOWS that you DON'T HAVE ANY FAITH in that chair. Just like flopping down into it without worrying shows you have faith in the chair and trust it completely.
  
  I suppose love is what love does would be accurate, if it's meant how I'm understanding you to mean it.
  
  If something is in your heart it will come out and show itself in one action or another. Mark 7:21
  
  If you are trusting and have faith in something it will show in your actions.
  
  If you don't trust and faith in something, it too, will show in your actions.
  
  Trust and faith = peace and worry free
  
  No trust and no faith = worry and fear
  
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  brittvan22posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So you measure faith by actions. I honestly dont measure anyone's faith(too busy trying to get my own ducks in a row.). I think we are here not to convert anyone, but to be a witness to them. That is the great commission. Jesus for me met people where they were in their despair and performed a ministry of change and hope. In doing so he sometimes went against the norm, (healing of woman in synagogue, the street (woman with the issue of blood)etc. If you have faith the size of a mustard seed, remember.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well I believe that's why we need to understand so we don't fool ourselves saying "I have faith in Jesus and I have eternal life" but be terrified when face to face with a 44 magnum pistol.
  
  God wants us to trust Him and have faith like Abraham did with Isaac.
  
  As for the witness thing.. Well said.
  
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  brittvan22posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I understand your point of view. I am a bit of a biblical OT and New Testament scholar. Very nice hearing your point of view.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Salvation as a gift and salvation as ransom are certainly not mutually exclusive by any means. God was not beholden to ransom us, so the fact that He did it is a gift.
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  emichaelposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I haven't taken the time to read through all of these responses, so I'm sure it's been addressed satisfactorily and ad nauseum at this point. But.
  
  The tree is there because God did not create drones. He created people with a capacity for choice. And what good is a capacity for choice if there are no options available? God created free will and gave man the ability to choose or reject good.
  
  God did not create evil. He cannot be in the presence of it. Ergo, evil is merely the absence of godliness.
  
  There is more I probably could say, but I'll see if anyone responds first
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Or and this is a much better explanation of humanity. THERE IS NO GOD. Just us and a bunch of other animals in what can be a cruel world. Yup that's the best answer. Trying to justify the cruelty of a God doesn't make any sense.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That's because God is not cruel, while human beings are.
  
  Did you really expect me to say something else?
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No Chris, that's what I expected you to say, but If you don't think God is cruel perhaps you should look at the cruelty he has in store for just some of us and then read the bible and in there you'll see what he let happen to his own son. Cruel.
  
  Did you expect me to say anything else?
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Of course not.
  
  The unimagineable cruelty inflicted on Jesus was so that we could be saved and not have to face the "cruelty that he has for just some of us." In fact, none of us HAS to go through that, because He already did!
  
  Believe it or not, God calls that the "Good News."
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't know about that. I'm not sure how his pain saved us. Many of us die a painful and humiliating death. I don't see the saved part. I do see that it makes a good story.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It doesn't save us from death. Many people who were the strongest believers suffered the most painful deaths. What He saved us from was going to hell, if we accept His gift to us and believe in Him.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Sounds like the mafia Chris. They knock on your door and offer protection from themselves for a price. Yup, same thing.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But there's a huge difference. The Mafia never created anything tangible, only fear and deception. Any goods they have, they stole. God, on the other hand, created EVERYTHING!
  
  Also, the Mafia doesn't do good things for you if you pay, they simply "leave you alone," (yeah, right.) God gives you His love on Earth and Heaven when you die.
  
  Last (but not least) the Mafia demands "works," i.e. that you pay the "protection," and if you don't, you suffer the consequences. Jesus offers grace, something that cannot be earned or bought or stolen. It's a gift and it can only be accepted.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Do you think the God you believe doesn't ask for "works"? What's all the worship and praise and prayer for? Your God says to you "worship me and only me, pray to me often and thank me constantly for the stuff you've done for yourself (provided food and shelter)" and then is the next breath says " if you don't love me and believe that I'm not all powerful you will burn in hell forever. That's the fear of God. All Christians must have the fear of God. That's one fear I don't have. You are afraid of what God could do, this fear keeps you worshiping "works". Sound just the the mafia to me.
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Of course believers are way too psychotic to see this.
  
  God's "love" is outright extortion.
  
  He has prepared a place for those who don't believe.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I had to comment on this again because it's so interesting. You stated "God did not create evil. He cannot be in the presence of it. Ergo, evil is merely the absence of godliness."
  
  You don't see the obvious flaw in logic. He can't create evil, but he has by creating Satan and this cruel world. If he created everything then he has to take credit for it all.
  
  This world looks much more like a world that just evolved. Animals eating animals, cancer, murder. If a God created this couldn't be in the presence of evil and couldn't create evil, then why is it here?
  
  Some critical thinking will help you see the light.
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  emichaelposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks for commenting! It really is an interesting topic, and one that, admittedly, I am not as well versed in as I could be. But I'm working to understand it better.
  
  I don't really see the flaw in logic. What God created was good. Evil came into existence when Lucifer became prideful. Even the angels could choose to accept or reject God.
  
  Think of it in terms of light and dark. Light is a physical thing. It exists in quantifiable, measurable terms. But what happens when light is blocked or some physical barrier is introduced? Darkness. Is darkness a physical property? Is it measurable or quantifiable? Can darkness be created? Can we hold light responsible for darkness? Of course not. Darkness is merely the result of the absence of light. Light can't exist in the presence of darkness the same way God can't exist in the presence of evil. Evil is not a thing on it's own, it is merely the result of the absence of good. It's the same with heat and cold. Heat is a quantifiable, measurable property. Cold is not. We measure how hot something is by how much heat is present. The less heat present, the "colder" something becomes. I think you get my point.
  
  God created humanity in light, but gave them the mobility and free will to block the light and live in darkness. He didn't create evil. Man created it by blocking out God. When humanity rejected good, the result was evil.
  
  I admit that I am no master rhetorician, so there may very well be flaws in my arguments. I welcome the debate, so keep it coming. We can differ in opinion and still have a fun, enlightening discussion
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  God created satan. Satan is evil. God created evil. If God is all knowing then he should have known Satan would become evil. Makes no sense.
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  HeadlyvonNogginposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It makes perfect sense. God made beings with free will, meaning we can do whatever we want. Therefore, we're capable of committing evil acts outside of His will. God knew this from the beginning. That's the whole point. That's what the whole discussion between God and Satan was about in Job. That's what the whole tree of life versus tree of knowledge thing was about. The whole point was to create beings that can think and imagine and decide on their own how to behave. It's a powerful ability He wants us to have, but it's something that once you give it takes on a life of its own.
  
  Humans obviously have their own minds. And because we know we evolved from the same stock as the animal kingdom it's obvious that was not always the case. These minds of ours developed somewhere along the way. At some point we began making our own decisions beyond ensuring survival in each moment. We began to imagine the future and attempt to ensure survival for days/weeks/months. We began to take actions to make imagined outcomes or results a reality.
  
  Somewhere along the way humans developed beyond the rest of the animal kingdom in this capacity. The natural world has an obvious set of laws/rules that the animal kingdom conforms to. We do not, and have not for a long time now. The natural world continues to live on in harmony. We deviated. We destroy and kill and enforce our will onto others where possible, or others enforce their wills on us.
  
  That's where evil comes into play. Those things we do outside of the natural realm to serve our own selfish purposes. Just look at the 10 commandments. They mirror natural law. The first few say to respect God as the authority and no other, like cells that adhere to the DNA code as the authority. The rest of the commandments have to do with how we treat each other. Don't kill. Don't steal. Don't lie. It's a protocol not unlike the protocol cells follow in an organism. Or the protocol in the animal kingdom.
  
  These things do not have their own individual wills as we do. They live on instinct within the natural laws. Natural laws that mirror the commandments God gave us. Only we're the exception that cannot and will not conform. The very nature of free will means we won't all conform. Someone will not.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Okay, so don't tell me God can do no evil. As was stated in an earlier post. And then tell me he created Satan and us knowing we (us and satan) would do and be evil. The logic doesn't hold.
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  HeadlyvonNogginposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  How does that equate to God 'doing evil'? He created beings capable of their own decisions. Those decisions hold the potential for evil. Free will in itself isn't evil, but actions taken through free will can be. That doesn't mean God made evil. We do by our own decisions and actions. Evil is of our making. God made beings with free will. But it's the actions of the beings themselves that create evil. I get that you equate Him making these beings that can do evil as equal to creating evil, but that's not really it. Not when it's the will that you're talking about. Free will is truly free. Totally free of His will and capable of anything.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  This rather humorous in a strange kind of way. If said God exist and this God created Satan with the free will to harm knowing of course that Satan would harm then once again God created harm. It's like giving a child a gun to play with and then when he shoots his friend you say I didn't do anything wrong. Try even for a second to look at it critically and use your free will to do so. It's not evil to question.
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  HeadlyvonNogginposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Giving a child a gun is a bad analogy. Think of it more like giving someone a magic wand that can feed the hungry/create jobs/ensure stability and contentment for the masses OR it could be used for personal gain instead, depending on the person wielding it. It's up to them how they use it. Free will makes art and music and literature and all the wonderful things that enhance our lives, but the reason it's even capable of all of that is because it's a powerful thing that can also be used destructively as well.
  
  Besides, being someone who does not believe God exists, how exactly do you define 'evil'? In a natural-only world, actions would just be actions. No good or bad. All actions would be born of naturally evolved beings, therefore all actions would be of nature as well, and therefore neither good nor evil. Just action. Do you consider a lion killing prey to feed herself and her cubs evil? Do you consider monsoons or tornadoes that kill and destroy property evil? Or do you only count harmful actions carried out by humans as evil? If so, why make the distinction if it's all 'of nature'?
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I have to speak in terms of God and Satan to show how illogical your statements are. For some reason you write to me as if I am a idiot and don't know what free will is. You write as if teaching a math lesson, but this is not math and you really have no clue or answers to wether a God even exists.
  
  You can't see the flaws in the logic because you won't look at them. God created Satan. Satan is evil. God created evil. God is capable of created and doing evil. The old testament is riddled with his evil.
  
  As for your second paragraph you are once again showing your lack of understanding. I personally don't like the word evil because it can be used to imply Satan. As GW Bush did in his speech to go get Iraq. There is right and wrong and harming other is wrong. Atheists have the same moral code as most believers do. Don't harm others and all that stuff. We just know that humans are not special and we are subject to the same natural cruelty that any other animal is subject to. Drop me in front of a hungry polar bear and watch me get eaten alive. Cancer is spread evenly amounts all peoples. We've had this discussion before.
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  HeadlyvonNogginposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  My statements are perfectly logical, and I have plenty of clues and plenty of answers. Whether you choose to see/acknowledge it or not makes no difference. Do you think Bacon or Newton or Darwin were illogical? Because they believed in God too, as well as everything else that goes along with it.
  
  Just as you say I don't see the flaws in my logic, you don't see the flaws in yours. I understand just fine. Here you are simultaneously missing my point and illustrating my point all at once. Let's just look at a couple of statements you made. Maybe you'll see what I'm talking about.
  
  "The old testament is riddled with his evil."
  "I personally don't like the word evil because it can be used to imply Satan."
  "There is right and wrong and harming other is wrong."
  
  Call it whatever you like, you make a distinction between right and wrong, or evil and non-evil. The same questions apply. Is it wrong or natural for that hungry polar bear to eat you? Is it wrong or natural for a hungry person to eat you? Is the natural cruelty of life feeding on life or cancer riddling someone's body wrong, or just natural? Even here you make a distinction between what you call 'natural cruelty' and what you deem right/wrong. The distinction being that you assign right/wrong to the actions of humans and 'natural cruelty' to everything else. What makes human actions right/wrong even though humans come from the same natural stuff that everything else came from?
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Do you really think humans are the only creatures that understand right and wrong? Do you think other animals don't feel emotional pain? Do you think humans are the only animals that have a sense of family?
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  HeadlyvonNogginposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Of course not. One of the major differences between reptiles and mammals is the more developed limbic system. All mammals have the basic emotions like fear and anger, and mammals often show emotional bonds with family and care for their young beyond birth. Fight or flight instincts and instincts to care for and protect young are crucial to the evolution of life.
  
  But animals have no will to propel them to do more than survive and procreate. As long as immediate needs are satisfied animals are content. It's modern humans who have the knowledge of good and evil and who are rarely content. Anything born of natural will is naturally good. It's the way of nature. Natural law. Evil comes from a will independent of natural (God's) will.
  
  Humans are aware of social emotions like shame, guilt, and pride. Like the shame Adam and Eve immediately felt when they realized they were naked right after 'the eyes of both of them were opened'. There are tribal cultures still to this day that feel no shame in being nude and who are content living a simple life in harmony with nature. Humans who for many generations were geographically cut off from the humans that spawned civilization and never bred outside of their ancestral roots.
  
  Humans who are physically no different. Same bodies, same genetic anscestry, same brains. But it's the humans that first showed up in Mesopotamia about 7000 years ago who made very sudden advances in technology and craftsmanship, developing and building cities and fighting wars.
  
  There is a distinct difference between the rest of the natural world and modern humans. You yourself acknowledge it through viewing human actions as either good or bad while viewing the behavior of other animals as 'natural cruelty'. Whether you believe that change came through the introduction of Adam and Eve into an already populated world or not, it's pretty clear that there was a fundamental change in humans in that place and time that forever changed how humans live.
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hey HeadlyvonNoggin,
  
  Seriously, you have continued your onslaught of posts with Rad Man and I'm going to point out something to you, which should help you figure something out.
  
  Did G/god create everything? If you say "yes" then you have no ground to stand on.
  
  Get it? If not, then I would highly suggest you get over yourself. Why? Because, you are constantly making yourself look bad without even realizing you're doing it.
  
  Approximately 90% of your posts are NOT even on topic of the forum threads you post. You add, and add, and add meaningless junk when it's not actually needed to answer the question of the forum. You changing topics, going off topic is a constant thing with you, yet you fail to see that your own actions are defeating you.
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  HeadlyvonNogginposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I agree I am definitely prone to rambling. But as far as going off-topic, it's kind of hard to define the boundaries when the topic is all of existence.
  
  Here we're talking about free will, which is what makes evil possible. Hence the topic of the thread. Everything I said is directly related to that. Rad Man's first comment when I chimed in said ...
  
  "God created satan. Satan is evil. God created evil. If God is all knowing then he should have known Satan would become evil. Makes no sense."
  
  I'm trying to explain how it makes perfect sense.
  
  Yes, I get what you're saying. If God had never created us, there would be no evil, therefore God created creators of evil. Without the potential for evil, our will wouldn't truly be free. Free will is the whole point, and where there is free will, evil is as absolute as gravity.
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hey Headly, you are joking right?
  
  If God never created us, there would be no evil. This is one of the stupidest statement ever utter on HubPages' Forums.
  
  God didn't have to create US, which is something YOU are not actually paying attention to in the first place. We, humans have NOTHING to do with evil.
  
  God created everything including Satan. Evil existed before Humankind ever did.
  
  So, YOU ARE WRONG! Got it?
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  HeadlyvonNogginposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No, I don't get it, and I'm going to need a little more than 'because Cagsil said so' before I do. How exactly do you define evil? What constitutes as evil to you?
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  This is yet another ridiculous statement.
  It has nothing to do with how "I" define evil.
  
  God supposedly created everything IN existence according to the bible. God existed on his own where there was no time or space or anything else for that matter. Any and all other entities were created by him.
  
  Satan constitutes EVIL? Are you going to sit there and deny this?
  
  To say that God did not create evil is pure stupidity.
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  HeadlyvonNogginposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Are you sure? Maybe you can point me to where exactly in the bible it says that Satan is evil. Just do a search on biblegateway.com or whatever online bible you prefer for both 'satan' and 'evil'.
  
  According to the Hebrew bible Satan was an 'accuser' appointed by God to test the faith of men and report back those that went against the decrees of God. The version of Satan you're referring to is a kind of boogie man created by organized religion. A scapegoat to blame your actions on.
  
  Searching the word 'evil' in the bible should make it apparent that evil is the domain of men. Like I said, evil is only possible through free will. Just read the first 2 chapters of Job. God had to first give Satan permission to mess with Job. In these old Hebrew texts Satan was subservient to God, and therefore did not have his own will. He served a particular purpose that had everything to do with testing the resolve of free willed humans.
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You know Headly, for someone who is supposedly intelligent, you make an awful lot of stupid statements.
  
  Having a conversation with you could be compared to a lot of things. Many which I cannot speak of otherwise I would be banned, because I would be indirectly or directly calling you names, which would be considered an insult.
  
  You have no rational thoughts. All you've managed to do is prove that your ego is in the way. I noticed how long it took for you to respond to my post and that alone says that you didn't have any valuable to add to what I said or couldn't contest what was said.
  
  Yet, you come back with the above post. Completely and utterly ridiculous. If you need me, of all people ME, to point out to you what the bible says, considering you're the one who claims a complete understanding(logical and rational) explanation of the bible and knowledge already known, then you need help.
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  HeadlyvonNogginposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The length of time it took to respond had nothing to do with the value of my reply and everything to do with me going to bed. I'm asking you to show me where exactly you got ideas like this ....
  
  "We, humans have NOTHING to do with evil.
  
  God created everything including Satan. Evil existed before Humankind ever did.
  
  So, YOU ARE WRONG! Got it?"
  
  You're so certain I'm wrong you put it in caps. Surely you wouldn't speak like that if you weren't absolutely positive. So, I'd like to know what you're basing your statements on. Like I said before, I need a little more than just the fact that you declared it with certainty. Give me your references. You said here again that the bible says it. Please show me where.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Interesting, but no matter how you spin it your God comes off looking like a not so nice guy. According to you Satan does Gods dirty work. He can do no wrong so he has someone do it for him. Kind of like a mob leader. It appears the Gods only concern is wether people believe and praise him, but he does not reveal himself.
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  HeadlyvonNogginposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It's not dirty work. It's what's necessary for free will to exist. I'm sure you've heard my cell/DNA analogy by now. For beings to both have free will and live in harmony with one another, everyone must acknowledge God as the one and only authority. It's the only way.
  
  He made this place, He set the rules, He knows best what should and should not be done. Anything collaborative, any effort carried out by numerous individuals must have an established command. A leader. A single point of contact to make decisions. Without a solid leader, and without the entirety of the team recognizing and acknowledging the authority of the leader, the project or effort becomes chaotic.
  
  Like cells in a body, our time and experience in life is very short and our perspective is limited. Yet we possess an incredibly constructive/destructive capability like free will. So, just like the 10 commandments specify, it's absolutely crucial that He is the focus and no other. Like the DNA code in a body, it's the authority that knows best how each cell should behave for everything to work. Cells that deviate become cancerous and endanger the organism as a whole.
  
  But free will being truly free, many of us will decide we know better than Him, or that how He does things is stupid or evil or mean. Many of us won't want to acknowledge His authority or that He even exists at all. It's an inevitable outcome. God's 3 choices would be no existence, existence with everything living according to His will exactly, or existence with beings that have their own free will with the inevitable outcome that some/many rejecting him. He chose C.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I curious, do you actually really believe the stuff you say? I think all people would prefer that there is a God. I know I would, but that doesn't make it so. I would still like to believe in Santa, but I've matured and excepted that I live in a world without Santa. It's painful, but It's reality. It's much more painful to come to the conclusion that there is no god, but it's at least reality. When I die I no long exist. It hurts to rip the bandage off but it's better than waring a dirty bandage. It's better than living a lie.
  
  Do you actually believe the stuff you say because you basing your entire existence on an old book?
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  HeadlyvonNogginposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Of course I do. I wouldn't waste yours or anyone elses' time discussing it at great length if I didn't. The traditional religious beliefs I was taught didn't make absolute sense to me like you would think they should. And a godless existence doesn't make logical sense to me either. There are just too many things that just one view or the other doesn't address.
  
  I have plenty of reasons to have faith in God that I won't get into here and that could easily be rejected as meaningless coincidence to anyone who isn't me. So there's that. The rest comes from acknowledging some simple truths....
  
  1. Life is too important to us, too dynamic, and too filled with meaningful experiences to be nothing more than a small spark that came and went in an instant where small bits of the universe became aware of itself before extinguishing into nothingness.
  
  2. The conscious willful human mind, and all it's capable of, coming about naturally without anything else like it in existence just doesn't jive.
  
  3. Nobody knows how old the bible is (specifically the books of Moses) or who wrote it. What we do know is that it originates in the same time/region as the birth of civilization, which as of yet lacks any clear explanation, and that it's had a dramatic impact on humanity in every age it's been in existence.
  
  So, I simply take everything we know, the vast amount of information and knowledge available to us nowadays, strip away the fallible element (human interpretation), and evaluate what's left. If the natural world is God's creation, then modern science offers us the most in depth view of how God works than has ever before been possible. It's the clearest view of God's nature that we have available.
  
  I subscribe to the St. Augustine view of things. God reveals His nature to us through the 'book of scripture' and the 'book of nature'. If at any time the two appear to conflict, it's human interpretation that is flawed. Any interpretation of scripture should be informed by the current state of demonstrable knowledge.
  
  So I simply laid pre-flood Genesis along side the history of the earth and all life on it according to our modern scientific understanding. Not only do they fit together perfectly, but they go a long way towards explaining things like the first civilizations, the origins or those various mythologies, and they reveal a possible meaning of life in general which I've been trying to illustrate here.
  
  Early on this was just an idea I kept to myself. My own little way of reconciling my faith in God and my fascination with science and life. But once I found that the evidence and known facts actually line up just right, and once it became apparent that this view often offered more sound explanations than what I was hearing from others on various topics, I decided that maybe I should discuss it with others. Either I'm onto something or I'm completely delusional. The more I discuss it, the more people on both sides of the fence who completely disagree with me try to tear it apart and fail, the more confident I am that I really am onto something.
  
  It just makes sense to me. It manages to make sense out of all of creation. Not just specific regions, specific religions/beliefs, or specific people, but the whole ball of wax. That's the kind of answer I've been looking for.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Why? Just because you want the world to be a certain way doesn't make it so. The will to survive resides in all animals, not just us, we are not and different than any other animal in this respect.
  
  Just doesn't jive? Why sure it does and humans are not special in this respect either. We don't know what goes in other intelligent minds. Elephants, Dolphins, whales all may have deeper thought than us, but we are able to use others creativity to build on. Individually we are not very creative. Left alone in the woods I would not return in an airplane. Just because we are here doesn't mean we were put here. Evolution explains our intelligence. Our ability to throw to hunt was most likely how our brains evolved. We instantly calculate complex math with we throw. You need a big brain for that.
  
  Only to those who used it as a weapon to control populations. But even still, so what.
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  HeadlyvonNogginposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly. Now give me the scientific explanation that explains that will that resides in all animals. Where'd it come from? How did it begin? This is a big question that has no explanation that doesn't require enormous amounts of speculation, yet that will undoubtedly exists.
  
  Humans all over the planet, in every imaginable condition, have not been as creative as the humans that came from the dawn of civilization. Many still, even to this day. Same physical bodies, same DNA make-up, same brains, yet totally different. Animals can think and problem solve as a means to survive. Primitive humans can too. But that's where it stops. There's no will to do anything more. As long as immediate needs are met they are content. Those of us who come from bloodlines of civilized societies aren't nearly as content. We have to learn and examine and understand and improve life and invent and imagine and create. So, give me the scientific explanation that addresses the difference.
  
  So what?!? First off, that's a very cynical and very inaccurate view. Second, while I don't expect you to give it the same weight as I do for the same reasons, I would think that the unknowns about the origins of the bible combined with how well it lines up with the beginnings of humanity as we know it should at least be intriguing. This has nothing to do with what humans and organized religions (made up of humans) have done with it. This makes it clear that there are big important parts most of humanity simply did not and could not understand.
  
  If it turns out that the description in early Genesis, whether you believe it was inspired by God or not, shed some light on how civilization began and on just who those gods of Sumerian/Egyptian/Akkadian/Babylonian/Greek/Roman mythology were actually inspired by, the origins of language in that region, why so many civilizations share a very common flood story, etc... I would think every human on the planet would at least like to look into that further. Find out for sure if these are real answers or not. But maybe that's just me.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, what he said in that post was pretty good. And not really off track.
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I have to agree with Cagsil
  
  Headly you often fall off topic, and too much to read
  
  More focus please
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Headly
  
  God created everything
  
  If God did not created everything , did evil create itself , if so, then God creating everything is a lie
  
  Explain in non long winded terms
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  HeadlyvonNogginposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Castle, I hope you can see the irony in complaining about posts being 'too much to read' on a forum for writers. I am definitely long-winded, but if that trait were to be accepted anywhere, you'd think it would be here.
  
  Yes, God created humans who create evil, therefore God created the possibility of evil by giving humans free will. It's as simple as that.
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That's simply absurd! You keep writing God completely out of the picture, unless it connects with your psychosis of God being all GOOD.
  
  We can see right through this twisting and omitting and lying. Just say it: God created humans, who he knew(is he not omniscience?) would do evil.
  
  By giving man this choice, then creating man with the nature that we have, what makes you think an omniscient being wouldn't catch his own flaw. No, this omniscient being didn't catch his flaw...then was surprised at the outcome. Completely INSANE!
  
  What an incompetent, powerless, dishonest lowlife you serve.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I am interested to know what goes on in his head. He has a way justifying everything, but only to himself. He doesn't want to look at the logic.
  
  God created everything, there is evil everywhere, God created evil.
  
  That is of course if you even believe in God.
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  HeadlyvonNogginposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  How do you figure I'm writing God out of the picture? He's front and center in the foreground of the picture. Yes, God created humans and yes He knew they would do evil. The only reason it's absurd to you is because you view it as a 'flaw'. When you're talking about free will, evil is as much of a flaw as falling is a flaw of gravity. It's not a flaw. It's an absolute certainty.
  
  How would you do it? Let's say you're God and you're capable of creation. Would you choose to not create anything? Would you create existence where every living thing behaves according to your will only and have no minds of their own? Or would you create existence with beings that have their own minds and own thoughts? If so, how would you go about doing that?
  
  Free will means they don't have to behave the way they should for the delicate balance of physical existence to work. To live harmoniously they're going to have to adhere to what you explain to them is or is not okay because they don't know. They've only been alive a very short time and don't have the wisdom you do to know what behavior is okay and what behavior is destructive or harmful. But the nature of free will means they won't just listen. They're going to ask 'why?'. They'd just have to take your word on faith that you know and they don't and that they're just going to have to listen.
  
  So how do you accomplish that? Do you carve some rules in stone? Do you maybe rain food from heaven or water from a rock to show you're able to provide to garnish their loyalty? Do you maybe strike a few bad apples down in front of others to control their behavior through fear? How would you do it?
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Not when it comes to accountability. Your God lacks any traits of leadership...accepting no responsibility for the fallout of his decisions. What a childish simpleton your God is.
  
  This actually explains NOTHING. Your God is either the leader or just another follower. Stop trying to BS your way out of this conundrum you created, by being blatantly deceptive.
  
  What would be wrong with creating beings who followed my will. As long as I'm God, I could make them happy in any type of situation. Your reasoning is narrow.
  
  If I were God, I would actually be omniscient...which would mean that I would only create perfection. ANYTHING ELSE WOULD BE INCOMPETENT AND COMPETELY ABSURD!
  
  You don't need a God for that, so it is YOU creating God to perform what society has performed for itself. Useless! Since I have never seen your God say one word, it is clear that the ability to survive came after intense trial and error from early man...and NO God whatsoever.
  
  However, as God, I could have created them with the WISDOM...INTACT! Of course your God is too silly to use common sense. Again your thinking is very shallow. You don't seem to possess the capacity to go deep, so you state narrow, simply flawed analogies as if they prove your point. They don't.
  
  If there was a God directing early man, then why did they have to experience many hardships and innumerable deaths while learning how to survive, even before the advent of religion? Again, your thinking is truly shallow.
  
  Just in case you haven't noticed, I'm not God, so don't put the onus on me...just because your God is completely foolish.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Not that I want to start an argument, but it seems that this thread is being subjected to a stringent requirement that no other thread I'm on is, namely, stick to the topic and be brief.
  
  Religious topics get hijacked into long-winded and often invective-heavy battles over whether religion of atheism is really correct.
  
  Atheist topics get hijacked into long-winded and often invective-heavy battles over whether atheism or religion is really correct.
  
  And personal battles between posters are not at all uncommon.
  
  Why is this one different? Has there been a decree from the Hubpages team for there to be an end to argument?
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Why not simply answer the question the last 2 posters asked you, Chris? Did god create evil? Now it's 3!
  
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, I DID answer the question, just way way earlier in the thread. I always try to answer the question directly at least once.
  
  After that I go with the flow...
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  agreed.
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  God made everything perfect then there was the possibility of evil?
  
  Yeah right, no wonder your long winded.
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  HeadlyvonNogginposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Are you suggesting my long-windedness is evil? Just kidding.
  
  I didn't make this up. It's clearly described in Genesis. The first chapter details every single thing God created doing exactly as God commands. Animate or inanimate. Everything. Including the animals and the humans. Be fruitful. Check. Multiply. Check. Fill the earth. Check. Subdue it. Check. Humans establish dominance amongst the animals. Check. Life, come forth from the sea. Check. Everything behaved according to God's will exactly. Then He looked on everything He made and declared it 'good'.
  
  Then in chapter 2 when God creates Adam, unlike anything in Genesis 1, God doesn't tell Adam what to do. He just tells him one thing to not do, and Adam does it anyway. God set up a simple scenario to test His creation. Adam was different. The scenario God created in the garden makes it obvious this was the intent all along.
  
  Notice it was the evil in the hearts of men that chapter 6 says warranted the flood. Not Satan. God created humans who multiplied and filled and subdued the earth and established dominance over the course of many generations with no issue. Then, just 10 generations after introducing free will, He was having to send a flood to wipe out a 'wicked' element that arose in the humans in that region. In fact, it specifically says in chapter 6 that people of Adam's free willed bloodline intermingled with the bloodlines of natural/mortal humans in its explanation for why the flood was necessary.
  
  It's right there plain as day, and it mirrors actual human history in that region as this was both the time and place of the birth of human civilization.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It's a question that theologians and philosophers have been debating for thousands of years. The core question is, if God is good and cannot be evil (as stated in the Bible) then where did evil come from? Lucifer was prideful and went to war with God, El Shaddai, but lost (just as he had to) and was exiled from Heaven along with his followers. Adam and Eve were created by God, and He looked at His creation, "and it was good." So why did Adam and Eve rebel? They certainly didn't take up arms, but why did they think the serpent presented them with something better than what God did? Did they really believe that they would be "like God?"
  
  As Martin Luther said, "The devil is God's devil." What do you think that means?
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  emichaelposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  In the context of your argument it would seem to indicate that God created the devil and thus evil. However, in the context of Luther's original statements, I believe it means that nothing is outside of God's control, even the devil. The same as the presence of light drives out darkness, God's presence controls the ebb and flow of the workings of Satan and his angels.
  
  The problem is that you are still treating evil as if it is something that can stand alone. It absolutely cannot.
  
  The presence of good necessitates, at the very least, the potential for evil. Evil is merely the absence of good. The same as the existence of light necessitates, at the very least, the potential for darkness. Evil exists because men choose it.
  
  The only thing that you can "accuse" God of is giving humanity the ability to choose good or reject it.
  
  Would you rather be a human in a broken world or a robot in a perfect one?
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  For the most part you are saying the same things I have said. The one real difference is that I don't agree that the presence of good necessitates in any way the presence of evil. God is absolute good and if He alone filled the universe there would be no need for evil.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But that brings back the main point of the forum. Did God create evil? If He did, then why?
  
  Everything was created by God. Before God created it, nothing was. That includes free will. Why did God give us free will, knowing that we would use it to do things that He hates? What was God's purpose in creating evil?
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  Dubuquedogtrainerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No, God created the world and it was good. "And God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." (Genesis 1:31)
  
  Lucifer was very prideful and challenged God's authority which got him kicked out of heaven to reign on earth where he has been seducing people ever since the original sin in the Garden of Eden.
  
  God made man (and woman) in His own image, giving His humans free will. It was the exercise of free will and the seduction by Satan that brought evil into the world.
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  cruelkindnessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Been awhile since I posted in this forum so i brought this illustration for show and tell, enjoy!!!!
  
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If there is a Zeus then there is no Heaven!
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I guess you didn't get the memo, but this is not reality. This is just another fairytale. It's disturbing that you actual wrote this as if it's a fact. How absurd.
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The War of the 10,000 Gods
  
  TO be continue til the END OF TIME....
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  cruelkindnessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Getitrite- How absurd is right. Not sure if your response was to me. I did not see the memo, if someone can please send it to me. I would be grateful, My comment was to show exactly that its absurd, Its clearly showing how ridiculous we are for arguing about something that can not be proven wrong and can not be proven right.
  
  But hey lets keep killing one another over the history of humanity for these difference when we can not disagree that we could all wrong. I MEAN ALL BELIEVES
  
  This forum clearly shows why people kill for their beliefs, the anger for one another on who is right. All awhile not having any knowledge of the others believes when if they did they would see that all are so similar in there stories most stemming from Greek mythology.
  
  Who cares, what ever God or divine there may be, I highly doubt he or it cares what we we think others should be believing.
  
  If one belief is so correct then why is their so many different ones. Obviously one belief isn't that convincing or we would all believe that.
  
  Love for others is to respect that the other person is equal in the image of the beholder leaving none other than to hope and wonder. No one has the right to think they are more righteous than another because of their believes.
  
  Am I right...?
  
  cruelkindness (Subliminally Thoughtless)
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Most Christian agree on a thread I made up, that they would rather be put to death than lie about being Christian if they were capture by a group of Muslin terrorist and had choice to be Muslim or be killed right there and then
  
  The greatest pass time is lying in America, many will lie about taxes yet will die not to lie about being Christian to a Muslim Terrorist
  
  Suicide and being extremely stupid is a terrible sin. What do I care, one less idiot in the world
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Actually my comment was not directed at you. It was directed at Dubuque dogtrainer.
  
  But I agree with your comment.
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  cruelkindnessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  ah, I was thinking that but wasn't sure figured i would say what needed to be said, regardless if the forum is a debate with already made up minds.
  
  Thanks for the clear up
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  Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "IF" we are to ever feel good about ourselves about our ability to walk???
  There has got to be a down side to it all!, or we can't feel good about being able to walk; wouldn't you think ??
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  Emmanuel Marosiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Evil is the thought of mankind. It was not created by God. Man invented evil. Adam and Eve tale is a fictitious blaming story.
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  Krobles1127posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  In the garden of Eden, God employed two trees for symbolic purposes: “the tree of life” and “the tree of the knowledge of good and bad.” Failure to respect God’s decree concerning the latter brought man’s fall. Rather, by standing for “the knowledge of good and bad” and by God’s pronouncement decreeing it to be out-of-bounds for the human pair, the tree became a symbol of God’s right to determine or set the standards for man as to what is “good” (approved by God) and what is “bad” (condemned by God). It thus constituted a test of man’s respect for his Creator’s position and his willingness to remain within the area of freedom decreed by God, an area that was by no means cramped and that allowed for the greatest enjoyment of human life. Therefore, to violate the boundaries of the prohibited area by eating of “the tree of the knowledge of good and bad” would be an invasion of or a revolt against God’s domain and authority.
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Rina Pintoposted 12 years ago
John 1:1 - In the beginning was the WORD, the WORD was God and the WORD was with God!

Genesis 1:3 - And God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.`

Everything on earth that was created by God was good! But there was a war in Heaven between God our created and the created of the so call Lucifer the Arch-Angel, who was created for the Heavens Music. Wow! And mind you all He was the most Handsomest Angel in Heaven. The only thought in Lucifer's mind was " If only i could be Like God and more than God! Woe! to Him .. and God hurled him straight to the earth. God again wanted Everything Good and therefore created Adman & Eve thus in the same Planet called Earth. Now God saw everything good but since Satan was there he put the evil one side thus giving the earth to Adam & Eve to rule over ALL. This made Satan angry thus trying to get man sin like him. Satan, knew God never gave liking to sin. The rest is all we see the Breath of God in His Holy Bible of how are we to get the Redemption from His Son Jesus and that we are all saved by His Son Jesus Blood. - The Restoration of Man back to God- The striker still strives to get man kind to him (Satan). But We have the VICTORY through His son Jesus - Jesus has finished it all for us! Hallelujah! - We must read the WORD - HOLY BIBLE - The CODE IS IN HERE!
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  pisean282311posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  @pinto wht did jesus finish other than himself?
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus finished the work begun by His Father. He came to fulfill the Old Testament prophecies!
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  pisean282311posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  @neal and which work did his father begin?
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The Old Testament Prophecies.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  lolololololol
  
  I'm sorry, but that is just priceless......
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  Rina Pintoposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The Work of Redemption! Our Sins were washed once and for all never to remember them any more! No more condemnation. It was Jesus who died for our sins instead of us.
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  pisean282311posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  @rina but when did u sin , u were not even born 2k yrs back?...and if jesus redeemed sin of all who died before 2k , all who lived in jesus era and all who were to come after jesus...all must go to heaven because none are sinners as jesus redeemed...is it?
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  We all sin all the time, all of us. Anything that comes between us and a perfect, holy God is sin, and anything that is sin will keep us out of Heaven.
  
  Jesus did indeed die for everyone who has ever lived and will ever live. The real kicker is whether you accept that Jesus died for your sins, and if you really accept that fact as true then you must follow Him and His teachings. It's not enough to shrug and say, "Sure, He died for me," and then go on doing the things He said not to do. Or not doing the things He said to. He pointed out Himself, in several of His parables, that this was so. So that's why not everyone will make it into Heaven.
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  Slarty O'Brianposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Some of use see no point in going, so I'm sure we won't. Looks like Chris is right.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Indeed it does look like he's right.
  
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I know in the Bible Jesus did say He saw the devil falling to Earth. I've always wondered, where do we get the stuff about Lucifer? What do you mean by the Code?
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Eric L. Andrewsposted 12 years ago
God did not create evil. That comes from the evil one, or Satan. He revolted against God in heaven and was cast out, along with his fellow plotting angels. Adam and Eve were created with free will, and the potential to choose from good and evil. Satan was given, for now, the ability to tempt mankind here on earth. Adam and Eve chose poorly, and that opened up a Pandora's box of people choosing to sin, or do evil, versus a choice of good. It says in the Bible that God does not tempt us, that comes from the Devil. See James 1:13-15. Satan is represented by darkness, God and Jesus Christ by light.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  What a pathetic god. If I was going to grovel to an Invisible Super Being - I would at least grovel to one that created everything.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What is it with you thinking everything your beady eyes aren't capable of reaching is invisible? lol
  
  I suppose He is invisible to you. But then again you can't see your thoughts with your eyes so I suppose they don't exist and the words there in your box evolved from repetitive keystroke patterns.
  
  Hey, I thought most of that looked familiar!
  
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  Daughter Of Maatposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  lmao Mark you're a trip! That was great!
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The question is, though, if God created everything, did He not also create evil? As Martin Luther said, the devil is God's devil. And God certainly does know the future as He does the past. So since He does, why did He create Satan, knowing that Lucifer would rebel? And why did He create humans, knowing that Adam and Eve would also rebel and fall?
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  Slarty O'Brianposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But the devil isn't even Old Testament Biblical. It's something Christianity made up. A lot of Roman myth got mixed up with what was once a purely Jewish sect who saw no devils and revered but didn't worship Jesus like he was god himself.
  
  But Paul twisted the religion into his own version and taught the Romans. The Jewish aspects of the religion were perverted and a sin was committed. You worship Jesus before god, or Jesus as god, depending how you want to look at it.
  
  The Jesus is god thing is a Roman construct. Even their own emperors became gods. They also had a habit of making gods into trinities. The three gods in one thing is typical Roman paganism. So is the devil.
  
  To the Jews god was god. He didn't have an enemy. He was good and could be evil. But of course since he defined what those terms meant, he was above them. He was not good or evil. He was just the all mighty.
  
  But Sun worshiping cults like that of Sol, which was the official religion of Rome at the time of Constantine needed an enemy, and of course that was darkness and evil.
  
  So congratulations: you observe a religion created by Rome. What ever christianity was before that is all but lost. You then further perverted the religion by becoming protestants and again changing the religion.
  
  How can anyone take it seriously?
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Except that I don't.
  
  Okay, satan appears in Job. That is so Old Testament!
  
  Jesus certainly talked about the devil. He even said He saw him fall from Heaven.
  
  Your timeline needs a little explanation. How did John and Peter not understand that Jesus was the Messiah and claimed to be the Son of God, making Him equal with God? Are you claiming that John 3:16 was actually written by a Roman?
  
  Your thesis depends an awful lot on conspiracy theories and unsupported statements. If you want to convince me of your logic, you need to cite your sources.
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  Slarty O'Brianposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Satan in Job was an accuser or cop. No angel or son of god was named satan. It is not a name, it is a title. You need to know the Jewish text. In many they talk of the satans, more than one. And they were not evil, but rather they worked for god finding sinners and accusing them before god.
  
  There is a lot more to the Jewish religion and texts than Christianity understands. Again, the Romanized version of satan is an evil being. But the Job version is not. To unify the versions, of course, you read Job like a Christian so you don't understand it.
  
  There is no satan or devil in the garden, it is a snake that gets a snake's punishment.
  
  To top it all off you don't know who wrote John. No one does. No one has an original and there is plenty of debate. But even that is irrelevant..
  You know, if you have studied at all, that Paul accused the others of teaching things he did not and visa versa. Why do you think they didn't get along?
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  With reference to your Satan comments I believe an amen is in order if you will accept it.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Perhaps. I've already answered his post.
  
  If you will permit me, this whole thing that you and Slarty and a few others who I've encountered in various forums where we need to look to the Jewish theology certainly has value. It is certainly true that Jesus is Jewish, as was every single one of His disciples, even Paul. But your insistance that we must look to the Jewish traditions and interpretations and that a failure to do so almost exclusively results in a "bastard stepchild" of Greco-Roman paganism makes you sound, frankly, like a Judaizer.
  
  I don't argue that knowing the Jewish traditions and interpretations can enrich your understanding of Christianity and bring you closer to God. In fact it is good to try to understand the ancient Israelite mindset. But Jesus called us all to be closer to God, not all of us to be Jews.
  
  And you lament the fact that so few Christians will entertain alternate points of view, but some of us have.
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm no Judaizer Chris. However Christianity has become something quite different from what I believe God intended. Instead of Judaism - Mosaic law + freedom in Christ, that is what the apostles went with, we got something that assimilated paganism and reinvented its own interpretations of the OT to fit that paganism. But hey that's just my opinion.
  
  But if for centuries Judaism has an established understanding of talking snakes, the Garden of Eden, Satan, original sin, and the requirement for resurrection, why on Earth should this wisdom be abandoned in favour of the opinions of a couple 2nd - 4th century bishops?
  
  Since when was trying to understand the Jewish mindset and being closer to God mutually exclusive? And how do you conclude that Judaism is not focused on being closer to God also?
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Trying to understand the Jewish mindset and being closer to God are certainly not mutually exclusive. Nor do I deny that paganism and Greek philosophy began creeping into Christianity in the early centuries. We constantly need to examine the writings not only of the Bible but also of those who interpret it.
  
  We shouldn't ignore the Mosaic Law. Jesus did come to say He was fulfilling it, not abolishing it.
  
  The question is, does the literal interpretation of the talking snake over satan as a snake make more sense just because it's the Jewish interpretation? Yes, we must examine the writings of the church fathers and others, but we must examine the Jewish writings as well.
  
  If you're not a Judaizer, I apologize. It just concerns me a little. I'm not against Messianich Judaism. I would actually like to examine it more. But I'm not sure that the Jewish interpretation of any given Scripture is automatically the correct one.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm well aware that there is a lot more to the Jewish religion than most people are aware of. I was aware of the Jewish interpretation that the snake is exactly that, a snake. I'll admit that I wasn't aware that satan in Job was not supposed to be a bad being, although his gleeful willingness to do all those nasty things to Job and his family certainly don't make it sound like he's "just doing his job."
  
  The debate about who wrote John wasn't much of a debate among the church fathers, several of whom knew John. But as far as that goes, that argument works the same for Job. We certainly don't have any originals of that!
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Hauntyposted 12 years ago
vector7, thanks for your reply. I believe what you're saying is that the world God made was not necessarily perfect, so mistakes can always happen. And this is intentional on the part of God.

Castlepaloma, if evil is the absence of reason and has nothing to do with some superhuman power, does that mean that everything that's reasonable is necessarily good, and every evil unreasonable?

cruelkindness, I understand you are saying that we live in a cosmos devoid of any kind of moral order and that good and evil are man-made concepts.

Chris Neal, I don't have that in-depth knowledge of Christianity, so thanks for letting me know that.

Rina Pinto, I've never really understood the concept of redemption. What is it? Is it a return to Edenic innocence or is it some higher level of understanding or morality?

Eric L. Andrews, Wasn't Satan created by God? I think in some sense God did create evil as long as he created Satan.
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well, Evil is not the Absence of God or Atheist would be going to war, divorcing, being on drugs and being jailed(per ca pita) greater than Christians.
  
  Atheist better reasoning is not to go there as often. Next thing to reason is truth, an absence of infinite good, coming to the correct conclusion puts evil in its "proper" place. Obvious evil acts reflects a gross absence of such virtues as love, caring, and reason for everything. Which in turn evil creates the great lack of (in degrees of reason) or absence of reason is not good
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Hauntyposted 12 years ago
Mark Knowles, you're such a perfectionist.
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Emile Rposted 12 years ago
Not sure why I bother to post this, since I think it would be obvious.

You ask why the tree was there. It was The Tree of Knowledge. So, it isn't difficult to understand what that means. The bite was the awakening. Their ability to discern between good and evil.

So, evil and good existed according to the story prior to the bite.

This isn't rocket science. The story is nothing more than an ancient attempt to explain how Man became self aware. Why he is different, in this respect, from all other animals.
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  Hauntyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks for the condescending answer. It must be a really stupid thing to ask why there needs to be a Tree of Knowledge in Eden, the fruit of which it is sin to consume. Sounds like the most natural thing in the world.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No problem. Condescending is easy when the questions are fairly self explanatory.
  
  I'm available anytime. Just ask another silly question and I'll try to be there for you.
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  Hauntyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Okay. I'll try not to ask questions that would interfere with your personal style of answering them. So intelligent subjects are out of the question. Promise!
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Touche my good man. Touche.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Loosen your stark tie Emiles. You're getting a wittle nerdy.
  
  That board room must have a big long desk with bright lights, lots of chairs, and a basket of candies in the middle for the "fun" huh? lol
  
  Just kidn buddy.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The tree of knowledge. It's not that God doesn't what you to have knowledge, it's the church that wants to keep you from understanding and questioning their authority. The message is don't search for knowledge, we will tell you everything you need to know. Essentially it's evil to be tempted by knowledge. Ignorance is bliss.
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Druid Dudeposted 12 years ago
Evil is the other edge of the sword we call 'knowledge'. Good, being the opposing edge. Animals do what animals do. We changed that equation, and in doing so, separated us from nature (Garden of Eden), and, it is written that we are so separated that we can't find our way back to Eden. A 'Flaming sword which turns this way, then that way' gauards it from our return. We began a journey, because knowledge, itself, is an evolution, a step-by-step process. The journey is complete when we stand, all mankind, as divine in the flesh upon the earth, and in heaven. There are many meanings to the tree of knowledge and the eating of the 'apple'. There are many meanings to the other, now hidden tree, the Tree of Life, too. One must ask oneself, what is good and what is evil. My conclusion, which I reached some thirty years ago, is that the only evil which truly exists, lives in the minds of man, the only good exists there also, and that the only truly evil thing which we do, is what we do to each other, the things we are inspired to do from the center of our consciousness. Understanding this fully, convinces me that the whole of mankind, myself included, are stark, raving mad. And this explains our God. FULLY.
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Disappearingheadposted 12 years ago
Not sure why I'm posting this as none of the Christians will contemplate an alternative view but:

The Christian view of Satan, 'the fall', talking snakes, lucifer, beautiful music leading angel that got a bit proud and upity, war in heaven, blah, blah, blah, is so far removed from Judaism, the parent, so as to make Christianity a bastard child of Greco Roman pagan parentage. To understand Satan, the Garden of Eden events and the nature of man, one absolutely must consult Jewish encyclopaedias and commentaries. It was to Israel that these accounts were given and reinterpretation by the Church does not valid alternate explanations make. Church bishops between the 2nd and 4th centuries made a load of this sh!t up and its been around for so long that the Church thinks it was believe by the apostles.

Understand Judaism (remember Jesus was a Jew) and Satan, demons, original sin and talking snakes all disappear in a puff of logic.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No, you're right, we do need to look to Judaism. Jesus did say that He came to fulfill the Law, not abolish it, and of course He meant the Mosaic Law and the Old Testament Jewish prophecies. One of the big problems that Protestants have with the Catholic church is that the elevation of Mary, the pope, the praying to the saints and even Jesus with a beard all smack of pagan religion.
  
  That doesn't mean that we should all become Jewish, though. Jesus Himself pronounced foods clean, and that the Sabbath laws imposed by men were not honoring what God truly meant.
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Agreed, we should in no way become Jewish if we are Gentiles. But the Jewish interpretation of the OT should generally take precedence over any interpretation from the Institutionalised Church. Obviously Jesus being the Messiah is not recognised by Judaism, but even here we should endeavour to understand the apostolic view before the institutionalised Church's
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Agreed.
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  Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Kabbala, disappearinghead. Did your brains disappear too?
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ptosisposted 12 years ago
Haunty: “...”ancient Israelites, who originally put the story on paper, read it in an entirely different way than Christians do today.”
…..>That's because the Hellenized Jews grafted the new on top of the old. Like the Book of Mormom is not recognized by those who go by the King James Bible.

Vector7: “Evil was not created by God directly.”
…..> Yet he still created it.
Vector7:'The details are fuzzy for us.”
…..>

Eric L. Andrews “God did not create evil. That comes from the evil one, or Satan”
…..> If God is everything and made everything – wouldn't that also include evil – and if he knows all and see all – then didn't he deal a bad hand to Adamas. Like giving a puppy milk and leaving it alone in a room with your most expensive carpet. You don't blame the puppy – you blame the owner. Why doesn't God own up to the problems he had created? And if there are problems then that would not be the Hellenized never-changing all perfect God of the NT. In the OT you could talk to God and change his mind.

Druid Dude “Evil is the other edge of the sword we call 'knowledge'. Good, being the opposing edge.”
…..> so stupid good?

Disappearinghead “disappear in a puff of logic”
…..>

Emile R “[caterwauling]
…..> Nearly no comment

Chris Neal”No man would have ever created God.”
…..>”the ancient brain was "bicameral," with the two brains working essentially ... by the right brain as coming from "outside"—as if a god was speaking.” - http://deoxy.org/alephnull/jaynes.htm

My reply: There are many different explanations

Kabbala
“A potential for evil by God was the cause of creation and not a by product of it. God withdrew into and contracted to make a differentiated space of nothing” http://relijournal.com/christianity/why … z1uQH3n300

Cathar "heretics”
“all that is material was created not by the good god but by the evil god, Jehovah.” - http://www.cathar.info/120112_catholicviews.htm
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Wow! I've been told that I have an answer for everything but you literally DO have an answer for everything!
  
  That was an interesting website but if I were a purely logical person who rejected supernatural events, I wouldn't believe that one either. It's a lot of psychobabble.
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  ptosisposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well I believe in ESP because I've personally experienced premonition dream (too bad it wasn't about the winning lotto numbers). There is no 'logical' explanation but that's because we still don't know how the brain works.
  
  That's why all these drugs put out in the last 20 years is so scary. We are messing with moods without truly understanding.
  
  "I took SSRI's medication for depression and I myself felt like a 'hollow gram", an empty bubble with no core. If my basic personality can be changed and if the God particle of the soul is timeless and unchanging - then I must be soulless." - http://hubpages.com/t/2e4b96
  
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  My wife has had premonitions too, but they were not ESP, I'll tell you that.
  
  And I agree that we are messing with things we don't understand, and that goes whether you're discussing from emotional, brain, psychological, or supernatural standpoint.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What's that painting by the way? Is that Dali?
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Aw, come on. No comment, but caterwauling? That's noisy disagreement by definition.
  
  I'm sorry, people read too much into a simple story. If God exists and God created everything. It only follows that God created evil.
  
  But, that isn't the point of the story of the Garden of Eden. I'd love to think it's some cosmic mystery novel, but it's pretty cut and dry.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well said!
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  LOL..
  
  That's cute.
  
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SpanStarposted 12 years ago
The reason the tree of knowledge was placed in the garden was because never before had there been a creature called human being and now that God had given this human being free will God wanted to test whether or not this human being/these human beings would be faithful to him.

Jesus said it so let me try and repeat it God did not create evil. If someone builds a lavish and expensive estate what sense would it make to take a sledgehammer to the very thing they've created? Jesus said a house cannot stand if it's divided. For God to create good only to destroy good doesn't make much sense.
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  cruelkindnessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The Question remains "What if we are all wrong?"
  
  Think about it
  
  Cruelkindness
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  SpanStarposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What If Those Darn Beleivers We All Right? That would be a bad place to be as I'm sure the condemed would tell us.
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  cruelkindnessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Which one?
  
  There's so many different ones?
  
  We'll if there all right then that means we were all wrong.
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  SpanStarposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That's true,we have to roll the dice and wait to seen in the end which one was the right one.
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  cruelkindnessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  As long as we are kind to everyone. I'm sure we will be just fine.
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  SpanStarposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I wish it were that simple but some faiths don't subscribe to the idea that we could ever be good enough. Can any human ever be perfect?
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  cruelkindnessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Its impossible. That is how religions control society. For some reason followers think the ones in high position have the insight to life. Its funny cause specifically with Christianity Jesus felt discuss for the rich and powerful.
  
  Once he perished. Some followers took it upon themselves to create a organization with high levels of wealth and power.
  
  That is to date modern Christianity.
  Its easier to pull off deception on a grand scale.
  
  People will not believe they been deceived their whole lives worshiping the church.
  
  Please don't misinterpret me, I believe the message Jesus was trying to relay for all humankind.
  
  All humankind.
  
  Think about it
  
  Cruelkindness
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Perfection is not an impossibility. It it exists in front of your face.
  
  Chemicals will never make a mistake in their reaction to one another. You mix the same two chemicals you will never get a different reaction, result, or finished product.
  
  Water is perfect in it's structure. There is not a funny looking drop to be found. Seven hundred billion drops later and you will still be getting the same perfect h20 molecule that reacts to light, gases, electricity, and anything else it encounters perfectly and consistently.
  
  It never makes a mistake an operates like an indestructable and undefilable machine.
  
  Like wise with other elements.
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  cruelkindnessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The ways of the perfection have yet to be discovered.
  Until then you have just a theory.
  
  Then why are we imperfect?
  
  Cruelkindness
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  cruelkindnessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Perfection is staying in its perfect state without alteration. Elements of the world can be altered and new ways are always being discovered.
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  cruelkindnessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So a rotten apple off a tree is perfect?
  So extinct animals are perfect?
  Humans destroying a once was perfect world is perfection?
  Every idea you speak is perfect?
  Cancer is Perfect.
  
  You believe in good and evil right?
  
  Is evil perfect?
  
  Think about it
  
  Cruelkindness
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  cruelkindnessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Nothings perfect, that's what makes life so beautiful.
  Maybe its a test.
  Your being judge through an imperfect world.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  How many replies you got there? Maybe I should give you another minute just in case a revelation occurs? lol Just kidding.
  
  Perfection is a perfect balance in a designed system. For example if computer operating systems worked perfectly they would work exactly as they were intended and never clutter, slow, lose files, currupt data, and ultimately crash. The equivalent of a human being's cycle essentially.
  
  But in space, on the sun for example, billions multiplied by billions of events occur in less than half a second and every one correct, consistent, and without a hiccup.
  
  Call it what you want, deny it.. whatever you wish to do, but the molecules beyond the earths atmosphere follow laws like we wish our machines would.
  
  There is no mistake in the universe in terms of what happens in an interaction between two elements. The hydrogen, billions and trillons of molecules, that make up the sun will be following procedures in a single second simultaneously, and releasing energy called light photons because of it so long as there is hydrogen to do so. It will not suddenly change it's mind and break an absolute law it's governed by.
  
  It is a system that follows rules. Laws
  
  Of course evil is not perfect. It's the essence of imperfection. The absence of following the required laws.
  
  There are many variables within a designed system able to be manipulated, or actions that can take place [options], and the system still operate perfectly, but if the 'absolute' laws are broken, then you have witnessed evil. The law is the firmware or system files the user isn't allowed access to. Why? Because those laws cannot be broken without causing destruction.
  
  Breaking the laws set in place to establish a non-destructive state, so sustainability can be acheived and be kept in place through order, will wreak havoc.
  
  There is a difference between change and destructive behavior.
  
  You can create and delete files all day in your pc, but if you somehow delete a system file or alter the firmware inccorectly, then the perfect order innovated to render the system usable and operable will be disrupted and will terminate the system in it's entirety leaving no options to do anything with it any longer, as it will be ruined, or destroyed unless the person who "created" it can repair it.
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  Hauntyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Agreed. I can live with a God who is not claimed to be perfect. If he had to test his creation he must know this of himself.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Just a vision that popped in my head of some things I know of.
  
  A guitarist that is excellent and can play with the best of them knows how to pull an off-beat rhythm, or imperfect to the rest of the song, or even an off-key note or two and pull both changes that normally don't mix in that particular rhythm or note set, and can then pull it back into perfect rhythm making a seriously sweet show...
  
  Pardon the musical terminology on the end.
  
  My point is just because God allowed imperfection to occur it's because He can pull things back together and show off doing it making everybody happy and it all worthwhile.
  
  The air will never accept water, but that last droplet always shoots up trying to be incorporated, but the balance of the system through gravity and density says water and air will not mix - so down the drop goes every time and the water is calmed and the balance restored. Harmony.
  
  Disruption of perfection doesn't mean perfection doesn't exist. It means there's a ripple that's being ironed out.
  
  Time is a wierd thing mixed in with all that above.
  
  Just some thoughts is all.
  
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  cruelkindnessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It doesn't exist. Its just a word to describe something trying to become flawless ex. (diamond).
  
  There is nothing to pin perfect on because anything we seek to be perfect we just keep making it better or sometimes worse.
  
  Perfect would not be able to excel any higher than the state its in when claimed to be perfect.
  
  Think about it
  
  Cruelkindness
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  Hauntyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  These thoughts come from someone romantically inclined. Such people are beyond help. I know cuz I'm one. By beauty I am disarmed and your examples are quite nice! What needs to happen for you to write more hubs?
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Requests.. lol
  
  There's truth in there. I promise. That's not the 'perfect' explanation.
  
  I'm in love with truth, in love with love, and in love with life.
  
  I found all three in God, through Christ.
  
  And yeah.. busted.. lol The girls have always been totally in love with my poetry, or as I tend to call it, the inside me. Romance is the essence of bliss..
  
  Yes, I am beyond helping. I'm a sucker for beauty, in nearly any fashion.
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  cruelkindnessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm honored for your merits. Your question was wisely chosen for your audience and it has been a pleasure to take part.
  
  Well done. Hats off to you.
  
  Only time stands between our next encounter.
  
  cruelkindness
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pisean282311posted 12 years ago
Did god create evil...Abraham's god doesnot need to create evil...do u think we need two evils?...abraham's god is enough....
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  cruelkindnessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "you missed the boat as well"
  
  cruelkindness
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  pisean282311posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  @cruelkindness did i?..it was bulls eye...may be u missed boats like most including authors of torah,bible and quran
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  cruelkindnessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Okay you know a human (man) has given you your believes to date.
  So who has the correct god in the world.
  So the children and people who grow up in remote areas who are uniformed about everyone's else god.
  What happens to them...
  SOL huh?
  doesn't make any sense to me.
  How can you Justify this.
  Or maybe
  Just maybe
  
  Every on is Wrong
  
  Tables may have turned. But I'm still sitting at them.
  
  Cruelkindness
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  cruelkindnessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  STAMP it H/P
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  Nadee Jayaweeraposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Did god create evil...
  
  If we take it directly from the Bible. - it means God created earth and man with feelings, desires, brains, emotions and also temptation. God did not create the man or even animals or plants in a deadly unlive way where it will only function and respond to the command of God..
  
  May be technically like robos. Press button they work. God wanted us to have our own will and capacity to think and feel. So we can live independently. And he will not have to press buttons from heaven.
  
  Just like anything else we are filled with our own inabilities of dealing with our own emotions - that led to the way of being caught with the illusions of the "evil".
  
  Without evil - there is no goodness. Because it is evil that shows us tells us WHAT WE SHOULD NOT DO.
  
  God did not create it.. It has always been there..
  
  Our human ancestors got caught to it because they were not gods.. but humans with human limitations
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you! That is what I've been trying to tell people!
  
  Amen!
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  We are meat puppets for God entertainment. and Satan adds to the play Then God becomes very picky on who on earth gets to live in heaven and be extremely happy for ever . Then most of us who don't make the cut get torture for eternity because our tiny brain did not find it plausible to see God made us in his imagine so we suffer for billions of years
  
  On the up side YAHWEH LOVE US
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Oh the irony. If only more people could see the irony the world would be a better place.
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SpanStarposted 12 years ago
cruelkindness,

How is it that we always believed that which we want to believe? Meaning "if it didn't happen to me then it didn't happen."

If I am sitting down with someone who tells me they love banana splits and they say when ever they take their first bite the flavor and sensation is so terrific their toes tingle. Since I don't have the same reaction eating banana splits should I then conclude they are foolish and don't know what they're talking about?

Once again the question remains if I didn't experience it then it didn't happen.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That is not a question. That is an irrational statement to defend your delusional belief.
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  SpanStarposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Number one Mark it is a question.
  
  Number two Mark if it is my delusional belief then you should thank God you're not suffering with my problem.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No - a question would require a question mark. I am glad I am not religiously impaired.
  
  No god involved.
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  Daughter Of Maatposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  lmao! I absolutely love your logic Mark.
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  ptosisposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Consciousness is solely subjective and that there can never be an objective observation.'How to Study Consciousness Scientifically' video is @ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9st8gGz0rOI
  
  But be warned - you may lose consciousness listening to this. (Yawn)
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  SpanStarposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Lecture 9 by Mr. Searle was interesting. I like how he makes the connection between body and mind. The body isn't just randomly functioning but is being controlled by the mind and so what in the deepest sense is the mind for those who believe there is no spirit?
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SpanStarposted 12 years ago
Mark so if I say,"quantify that for me please."

"then I would need a question mark is that right? This sounds likes children nitpicking"
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No.
  
  Proper English is proper English. "Quantify that for me please," is a request, not a question. If you prefer to rephrase it as a question, you could say "Would you please quantify that for me?"
  
  "Once again the question remains if I didn't experience it then it didn't happen." is not a question, but - of course - you are twisting the subject.
  
  Your subjective personal experience does not mean it is real - no.
  
  You may have experienced your delusion of god. That does not mean it actually happen, just that you really need to be self righteous and claim knowledge others do not have to feel superior.
  
  Probably why you need to hide behind a fake persona and at the same time claim to be taking the mask off.
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  Daughter Of Maatposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Mark, it's a shame you haven't written anything inthe religious genre, or if you have I missed it and that in itself is a pity. I would LOVE to read your thoughts on christianity.
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SpanStarposted 12 years ago
Mark how is it that a question is not a request? One is requesting information.

Why do people like you project your distortions on to others as to how you think they are. You are the one who for a long time that acted like you have all the answers in fact you act like you have the only correct answers. I'd recommend you go back through your comments not just here and see for yourself who's been acting like they are superior.

Not simple accepting everything that comes out of your mouth doesn't mean people superior they're just smarter then you give them credit for.
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cheaptrickposted 12 years ago
Yes,God created evil...right after he created a rock so big he couldn't move it.
This forum is lots of fun but the truth is all religions can easily be reduced to one sentence.
Try not to be a Butt Hole...everything else flows from that incredibly simple statement.
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  cruelkindnessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "Religions are different roads converging to the same point. What does it matter that we take different road, so long as we reach the same goal. Wherein is the cause for quarreling?"
  
  -Mahatma Gandhi
  
  "In reality there are as many religions as there are individuals."
  
  -Mahatma Gandhi
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  There may truly be that many religions, but there is only one God.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Christianity cannot be reduced to that. It's essence is that Jesus is Lord and He needs to be Lord of your life, that's the reduction. Not being a jerk is a product of following Jesus' teachings, but if He didn't die and then rise again on the third day, we need to burn up all the Bibles.
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  cruelkindnessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Get a match!
  
  Jesus was just a message of how we should be as humans.
  The mythical story of him was most likely added by others to use him as a tool to gain followers.
  
  Cruelkindness (Subliminally Thoughtless)
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The evidence for Christ is well beyond denial for His existence.
  
  And considering how many died for Him, far before they would have naturally, and considering all they had to do is say "nope, don't believe it.." and scurry along...
  
  The "evidence" is subjective to the perceiver just as beauty is to the beholder.
  
  If you don't look hard enough you'll get the lies, just as lies are multiplied daily within hubpages forums.
  
  The truth is it happened, otherwise no one would have followed the man called Christ, Son of God, the carpenter who at age 30 began teaching repentance, raised the dead, healed the sick, made the blind see, walked on water, calmed a storm, performed many other miracles, and died and rose to save us from the curse of disobedience called sin which causes destruction and ultimately, death.
  
  If it really didn't happen, the flame would have flickered out long ago.
  
  Fortunately the truth is a wildfire and as such spreads like one carrying it's Truth no matter who wishes for it to not exist.
  
  Marshmallow?...
  
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Most of the world's population dose exist fine without knowing anything about Jesus, Don't you think? he is everything to you, yet nothing to most of us, making your view of the world extremely one-sided and narrow minded.
  
  Jesus lived to age 33, a very old man during that time period. The average person today is wiser, lives a lot long, create far less wars (per capita) more opportunities and less hardships. I love living in the now and for today. Living for hardship ancient times then only having your imagining of a Lottery ticket for extreme happiness, is rather sad way of thinking
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  John the disciple was 92 years or so old when he wrote Revelation on the island of Patmos Castle..
  
  Where do you people come up with this "...during that time..." information?
  
  What gave you such a silly idea that they died before 33 naturally, or normally, or even often???
  
  lol....
  
  My goodness Castle. You jumped slap off the band wagon with this one buddy....
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Michelangelo and Leonardo lived three times longer than the average person did in their time too, they are the odd exception in history, Mankind has not reach above the average of 40 years old life expectancy until Darwin's and science came really alive after the mid 1800s
  
  My information came from building natural history museum displays and traveling worldwide experiences
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  This is a point I've made before, but...
  
  Yes, 92 was extremely old back then. It's very old now! But the fact that the "average" lifespan was 40 meant that although there were a lot of people who died earlier (due to war, death in childbirth, pestilence, famine, etc,) there would also have been about as many people who lived longer. If, in fact, the majority of people were dead by the age of 40, then that would be the maximum, not the average. The average lifespan would have to be much lower.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The maximum is determined by the oldest person. I think today it's in the 120s somewhere.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, that's a variant of what I've been trying to tell some people. My point is that we hear over and over that the average life span back in the 1st Century was around 40, and then people seem to assume that means most people were dead by then. Castlepaloma said something to the effect that Jesus died at 33 and that was very old for back then. Yeah, the average lifespan back then was roughly 30-40 years shorter than today.
  
  The thing is, I'm sure most of the people who act as if 40 were the maximum lifespan, not the average, do understand the meaning of average and use it correctly in other circumstances. I think it's just kind of taken on a life of it's own and become "received wisdom."
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The whole "average lifespan was 40" thing has taken on such a life of it's own that many people think that 40 was the maximum lifespan back then. I'm not sure when people forgot what "average" means, but many of them seem to have. I got into it with a couple of people a couple of months ago. I don't know if they realized they were wrong or if they just didn't feel like talking to me anymore...
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, well I've recently been coming to terms with accepting some people just don't get it. For whatever reason the truth or facts of certain subjects elude them in one direction or another.. It's frustrating to keep driving at the point only to have to run circles regarding logic the point is built on.
  
  So, at last in my life I try to remember to move on and find the next subject that may reasonably be disputed correctly if I understand it.
  
  Most who disappear seem to fall in both those categories simultaneously Chris.. lol - They realize, and because they were wrong they don't feel like talking to you.
  
  We call them sore losers in sports, but the type lives in any conflicting situation.
  
  And for the age thing, you hit the nail squarely concerning grape vine status I'm sure. If any of us spent the time to dive hard into the research, as if it were a top priority subject that is, I'm sure 40 being the average might even be a smidge low.
  
  Let alone the maximum.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I checked the average lifespan on the internet a couple of months ago to make sure that I was on solid ground, and if I remember correctly the average lifespan in Rome during the First Century was around 52. It was probably shorter in other parts of the world. It's just that some things take on a life of their own, Has I was reminded not too long ago when I learned that something I've believed since I was 13 (that the US Army gave smallpox infected blankets to the Native Americans) turned out not to be true. So it is with the "average lifespan" belief.
  
  The moral is, we need to be sure of our facts just as much as other people do.
  
  You're right, it's not good to get bogged down in arguments (didn't the Bible say something about that?) It's so easy to get into a discussion that, before you know it, has become just another back and forth. There are some people whose posts I never even read for that reason.
  
  Bless you!
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  cruelkindnessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Vector7 who said those events occurred?
  
  Cruelkindness (Subliminally Thoughtless)
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Are you asking for the historical documentation for personal research or are you just attempting to imply they never happened?
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No.
  
  I've heard from God, I've felt the Spirit. I wrote a hub about it.
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Since resurrections violate the laws of nature, and since there have been no credible evidence of anyone or anything(natural or supernatural)ever violating the laws of nature...why aren't you burning bibles?
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Because He did rise from the dead!
  
  ka-POW!
  
  You read my hub. Agree or disagree, that's what I believe. And if you can't accept that I believe it, whether or not you understand it, then that's your problem.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  Check out the other side the debater hides..
  
  And I here I was thinking you were professionally stark.
  
  ahem... Just sayin.
  
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Sometimes, you just gotta have a little fun!
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vector7posted 12 years ago
"Vector7: “Evil was not created by God directly.”
…..> Yet he still created it.
Vector7:'The details are fuzzy for us.”
…..>"

- ptosis

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Sorry for procrastinating.

Evil is an absence of good. Yes, He created beings with the capability to rebel. If they didn't have that option then they would be without free choice.

Therefore, indirectly, yes He created the potential for rebellious individuals by giving them a choice.

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As for the funny, well I laughed. But if you have an explanation for the cause of EMF, why energy isn't used up, and how the universe operates under the Laws of Physics and Thermodynamics and why - then you can fill in that little spot you want clarification on for all of us.

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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I am always curious as to why believers say that "it's a choice". Can you choose not to believe? Is it a choice? Did I wake one morning and say "today I'll not believe, but tomorrow I will"? Did you choose not to believe in Santa and the tooth fairy? Could you choose to believe in them again?
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If you can choose to do good, you are doing what God designed us to do.
  
  If you can choose to do evil, you are doing what is opposite and that which is destructive.
  
  Of course you can choose... Is this some bait and switch move you're attempting???
  
  The choice is whether you work hard to seek what is there, without bias...
  
  People have biases they "choose" not to release that hinders them. I done it as a teenager.
  
  When you prematurely conclude and say "Christianity is wrong because the men recorded in the Bible did bad things and God is hateful." then you CHOSE to abandon any further understanding of "why" things that seem wrong to you may have been necessary or if there is a plausible explanation.
  
  You "jumped" to a conclusion without full understanding. I know not one person that can quote the entire Bible verbatim. Not even a chapter....
  
  Never heard "Things aren't always what they seem." ???
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Nice refutation there.
  
  Such seamless reasoning you've expounded.
  
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And you inability to refrain from mockery is more evident than ever before.
  
  There's no reason for what you did. It stems from egotistical driven action and it seems as though you appear as superior to others. I guess you really don't understand Jesus' teachings after all.
  
  Just because I laughed at something you said, is not justification to mock me. My post wasn't meant to dispute anything which you said. My post was to let others know, that I found it funny.
  
  If you don't like it, then I suggest you get over yourself. And, yes I know you possess the ability to turn it on me. I'm just pointing out the facts of your post, which will show others the limited nature of your religious beliefs.
  
  The more you post, the more you show yourself and I can tell you honestly that your actions prove there's a difference in what you says and live. I say that because apparently you've not realized it as of yet. It's ironic but expected considering your good book teaches "do as I say, NOT as I do" mentality.
  
  You must be so proud of yourself.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  lol... You act like that little laughy face wasn't mockery or something..
  
  Shouldn't poke fun if jokes aren't your style.
  
  Good day Cagsil.
  
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Laughing at something isn't mockery.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not trying to bait you in any way. Choosing to believe in God is not the say as choosing to do harm. There is no harm in not believing in God if you are a good person. I think that is the connection you were attempting to make. I don't believe I ever said "Christianity is wrong because the men recorded in the Bible did bad things and God is hateful." as you have implied.
  It's very simple actually. Ask yourself honestly if you could choose not to believe.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well, I could. Actually, for self-gratification's sake I have pushed God away before. But God has a way of revealing Himself once you've opened the can of worms and seen His existence and love.
  
  I have given up on searching the Bible's words before, and at that because it's hard to understand and even believe.
  
  Two hypothetical scenarios exist here:
  
  First - God doesn't exist and we have no purpose to live except to profit ourselves first and foremost.
  
  Second - God created everything, including us. This means God deserves credit for what He done, and thanks for it as well.
  
  To top this off, if we choose to be away from Him, then we are "choosing" to be away from "good" and if He forces Himself (goodness) on us then He is taking away the very choice He gave us. And that's not good, that's evil.
  
  Just like I won't try to force a woman to love me or be my wife and spend time with me. This has happened with me. They want to do things that are not part of my "good" nature that comes from my understanding of God. They get bored with "good" and then "choose" to leave.
  
  I'm not going to force them to stay and lock them in a basement..... even if I'm "good" to them and bring them presents constantly, forcing them to go there is still evil.
  
  Then, a month later they are in hell with some selfish person, or persons, unable to find anyone that really loves them and cares, asking if I still love them and will I be with them again and wanting forgiveness.
  
  It's the same with God, except He gave us everything good there is to have, and He deserves credit. But forcing us to choose the "goodness" over the "badness" isn't something He'll do. If someone wants to join Satan's party He'll let them go, sadly.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  PS:
  
  If the option even exists, something as glorious as God deserves to be searched for.
  
  If we don't look for Him, we are automatically stating "He isn't even worth it."
  
  The elementary fact that all of existence is "subject" to the "laws" of physics and thermodynamics says in itself that we are all "subject" to a higher power and intelligence whether we like it or not.
  
  People can deny the fact all day, every day, their entire lives. But they can't make the fact go away that something that is unimaginably sophisticated and unfathomably powerful exists.
  
  It's staring us all in the face every day we wake and lay down to sleep.
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And it is completely irrelevant with regards to highest authority of one's own life.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah. Defy the laws of physics or thermodynamics. Then you can say it isn't relevant to you.
  
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It has no baring on understanding one's own life. And you cannot prove it matters because it doesn't. Yet, I can prove otherwise.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  lol.. Good day Cagsil...
  
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly!
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  You're a TROLL Cag!!!
  
  lololol
  
  You ALWAYS think you've won when I cut your circle argument off!!!!
  
  LOLOLOLOLOL
  
  At least you crack me up buddy.
  
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You're not rational enough. Again, a nice show of your ego.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm going to DIE laughing.. lololololol
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You didn't answer my question. Could you choose to not believe? You say it's a choice, but you can't choose it can you?
  Unfortunately there is no evidence for the existence of a God. There is lots of evidence that no loving God exists. There is much cruelty in the world and not just man against man, but nature against man which suggests the absence of a God.
  
  Try to stay on the subject. Could you CHOOSE to not believe?
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Are there laws above our understanding that dictate how all of existence operates?
  
  Yes, I can "choose" to deny that such information above isn't factual or just ignore it completely due to selfishness, or emotional input. Yet, if I "choose" to be correct then I must accept that it "means" something.
  
  What would that fact "mean" if it didn't point to something above ourselves?
  
  How do you explain perfectly consistent, sophisticated operation otherwise?
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What information are you talking about. You seem to speak in riddles. If your honest with yourself you will no it's not a choice. When one says that they have a belief, they no longer have a past or a future and they stop using common sense. That is fact.
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  cruelkindnessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  We are kept in control by governments producing laws.
  
  Remember how governments work.
  
  The ten commandments are from religion and this was incorporated in the establishment of most nations. Why you ask....
  
  To control society to become a strong force for the ones in control.
  
  Sound familiar!!!!
  
  Cruelkindness (Subliminally Thoughtless)
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If an all powerful being created us to do only good, then we couldn't possibly do anything else. It is apparent that we were designed to do all manner of things. Evil is relative, and both good and evil can lead to destructive.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Okay, I defended your position to Onewriter, but now I'm going to explain the other side (and I hated debate in school!)
  
  The fact is that people choose to believe things that they don't know for sure all the time. They also choose not to believe things that seem pretty clear-cut all the time. Obviously it's not true of all people in all situations, but it happens often enough. In extreme examples it's like the mother who has been told her son is dead in war but since the body has never been recovered, she chooses to believe that he is still alive, even years or decades later. Or the guy who looks at pornography and chooses to believe that it doesn't affect his marriage or his relations with women because it's just a private thing. The evidence is there, often even if he doesn't want to look at it, but he chooses to believe something because it allows him to do what he wants to do.
  
  But let me repeat that I don't think that goes for all people at all times. I certainly don't think it goes for me in my belief, and I don't think it goes for you in your lack of belief.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Correct, if one has come to a conclusion with the use of overwhelming evidence then it's not so much a choice. For instance 2+2=4 I can't honestly choose to believe 2+2=5.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Agreed.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I have a cousin who will lie until he has convinced himself of the lie.
  
  Conivincing evidence is not needed to believe things where human will is concerned.
  
  I see and agree with the simple approach on the black and white side of things, but people are very much more complex and on many different wavelengths. They are certainly not math equations, and most usually aren't good at math in general anyway, when it comes to decision making.
  
  This is my whole point. There are posts of atheists in another thread that state they would rebel and refuse God even if He showed up and sat in Jerusalem right now....
  
  THAT, is a choice.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  There are two reasons for this.
  
  1. They know god will not show
  2. Most of the bible (OT) depicts God as a needy, vengeful God. "If you don't like me burn in hell forever". I wouldn't want a friend like that either.
  
  It's not a choice if you know the truth. It's just like simple math. Everyone knows 2+2=4. It's not a choice to decide that 2+2=5, you can say it but you won't believe it. I'll give you it's a choice to say it, but not to believe it.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You're proving my point. People assume they understand things just from the "cover of the book" assessment and especially by emotions well before rationality ever has a chance to make a clear assessment.
  
  If 2 was always 2 to everyone, 2 beings the actually correct fact of the matter, then of course understanding they [assuming the assimilation of relative data is understood as well] would get four from that equation.
  
  The choice is jumping to conclusions.
  
  You might as well tell a judge he is evil for sentencing a murderer to jail. The only requirements God has is to give him his due glory [credit he deserves] and love him and your fellow beings.
  
  If you can't do those two things you'll end up destroying evrything in rebellion because love upholds and anything opposed to love destroys.
  
  The testimony of Christ is a testimony of a loving God who will only accept those who are not proud like Satan.. Who are willing to do the basic requirement that sustain al life and all who live's happiness, and to trust him with the life He gave you for free in the first place.
  
  Two plus two may equal four, but if the equation is more complex, such as that pertaining to life as I've already noted, then you aren't doing two plus two anymore - you're in trigonometry and calculus, and if you think humans trusting their own numbers always conclude on God correctly, then your confidence is over-stepping your/our actual abilities.
  
  People give up on God before they ever get past "Why'd He create Satan in the first place..?"
  
  I can't answer that exaxtly, but I can tell you that emotions are what most everyone I've heard deny Christ spill out.. Hatred for this, rebellion for that... God did this, God did that... God's going to do this if I do that...
  
  Sounds like to me they are asking for God to send them away concluding so easily 'it's all God's fault' as if they were already in Hell or something.
  
  That isn't rationatily or numbers. That's emotions and choices are made through rationality anyhow. The whole point of a conclusion is the aim of being correct and accurate. They stop short of "concluding" and begin "assuming" because what they see on the face of things is something they don't like.
  
  You seem to consider 2+2=4 to be the summery of understanding a God that created a universe you couldn't travel through a tenth of with a blackbird, no need for supplies or stops, and 20 Billion light years.. not years, light years.
  
  The whole point is to not assume until you know every detail of the entire equation, and every variable calculated.
  
  No one here is even close, but many keep looking for more numbers to add that bring one closer to the accurate summery rather than complain about what it looks like God is before trying to understand why the things they don't like happen.
  
  They are choosing. Choices are made by the individual based on emotions and rationality. What they decide to do with their options is their "choice" be it correct in trusting and accepting God's grace through obedience, or be it incorrect and disregarding God and/or rebelling against Him or the very idea of Him based on emotions or other innacurately employed factors.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Very well said, but you make way too many assumptions. The math has nothing to do with a belief in a God. The math merely proves that belief in said God is not a choice. You can choose to say you believe, but the believe is not a choice. As I said to you before, could you choose to not believe? You can choose to say you don't but inside your mind is made up.
  
  I will once again explain to you that atheist are NOT angry with God. You can't be angry with someone that does not exist. Statements from atheists about the neediness of God are only a reflection of the nonsensical contractions in the bible.
  
  You keep thinking our anger is directed at God, but it's not, it's directed at your inability understand the concept of the world without a God.
  
  2+2=4 is a true statement that you can't choose to believe it is false. The same works for pie being 3.14...
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Lets do this a little differently then. The reasons atheists don't believe the Bible [I can understand the reasons for denying the Quran easily, been there] is because Jesus' miracles are made up because it can't be real and people are liars right?
  
  And because lets face it, it looks like God could be kinda harsh in the OT, especially if someone is just doing a read through and doesn't see any reasons for it.
  
  Am I right so far. You can set the list complete.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Your going in the right direction here. Everyone has different reasons and there are thousands. There is no evidence that Jesus ever lived. The gospels were written well after his death (if he was even alive). All four gospels are different with the earliest have very few miracles and the last having many miracles. None of the writers every saw Jesus in person. It's my understanding the first gospel was written 30 years after the time of crucifixion and the last 100 years after crucifixion.
  Don't even get me started on this cruel world and the cruel things in it. To many why would a god make this or do that to even talk about. Time to do a little critical thinking.
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  brittvan22posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, the bible has gone through its manuscripting phase of copying, editing, translation, etc. The gospels are all distinct, but the synoptic gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke) have similiars and are quite different from John's Gospel altogether. They were as you said written after Jesus lived. The world is very cruel and unforgiving, but that's because (there's people in itlol)different mindsets and ways of thinking. It is up to us as the individual whether or not you become part of the problem or solution. You don't have to be a Christian for me to like you, you just have to be to my liking. (lol).
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not taking about the cruelty of people. I'm talking about nature and it's way of letting us know we are no different to nature than any other animal. The Filarial Worm worm for example is a human parasite that has no regard for human life or pain. Why would a God put it here if he loves us? Child cancer is another example of unnecessary pain. Nature does not treat human any different than any other animal. This to me is a clear indication that we are not special and we were not created by a God, but by nature.
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  brittvan22posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I would agree with you that creation and nothing is more significant than the other. Honestly, I don't like to see pain just as much as the next man, but in my pain I honestly found strength that I didn't know I had. For me it was like I had tapped into a part of me I didn't even know. I may be young, but I have had my fair share of misery and heartache young man. I do not have that answer as to why God made suffering? Why did Jesus die on the Cross? Is there a Jesus? All I know is what I have read, researched, and experienced. In my life my constant has been God. I do not pretend to know all the answers, but I take each experience as it comes to me and try to better myself. I do not believe that nature created us, you are entitled to your own opinion. I think God find value in all of creation. Could you tell me more about your nature creation theory?
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Evolution!
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  brittvan22posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You sound a bit like a pantheist. (lol)hmmmmmmmmmm.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  With you I believe this based on our conversations. With a few others I can believe this, but there are some who, if they are not angry with God, are certainly angry with someone so it's probably believers or Christians in general. It's possible it's an assumption but the language of some of the atheists in these forums is too confrontational and exercised to be merely an expression of disbelief.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I've only seen a few truly angry posts and unfortunately they were posted towards me. From what I've seen this person is following my comments and attempting to get me banned. Christians (some) think atheists are the anti-christ. Some Atheists think Christians are gullible. I think the anger lies more squarely with the Christians towards Atheists. I see Atheists showing frustration with mocking, but I don't see the anger that has come my way. But I will look for it.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  There's anger and mocking on both sides. It's easy to get focused on what you are directly dealing with, which is why I find myself apologizing to people like Cagsil. I often don't read posts for several days at a time, then try to get caught up, which is why I think I see the patterns a little more clearly than I used to. That doesn't mean I don't get upset sometimes, especially when I'm being mocked (which doesn't happen as often as I used to think but very clearly does still happen.) But it does nobody any good to get caught up in these protracted arguments.
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  brittvan22posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Are you implying that emotions are bad? Because that is something that everyone needs. YHWH was harsh in the OT (READ TEXTS OF TERROR). There were things I agree with and disagree with in the text and it has nothing to do with emotions (I dont knock emotions, because you need them to express, heal, cope, and move forward.) The reality is the text has been used to do and condone some pretty messed up things, the list is endless. I don't knock people for their reasons for reading and not reading, I just meet them where they are (as Jesus did). Then, tell them my story if it applies. The last thing a hurt or emotional person needs is someone with a whip beating their views onto them. Just saying.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, but my point is Christ taught from the OT, said He came to fulfill every word of it, and therefore it's an all of nothing gig.
  
  Emotions have their place yes.. No, don't misunderstand me. But jumping the gun and shooting first because of anger and asking questions later, when we KNOW we are mistake prone is not smart[Hence the ironic saying]. Emotions can cause good [love] and bad [love misplaced] - but God uses them correctly because He is perfect, such as when Christ ran the "theives" from the Temple for selling right there on the spot. Christ was angry, yet did not sin.
  
  We on the other [personal experience here. lots] hand, can be controlled by our anger, and love for things opposing to God and good, and do irrational things and cause problems for ourselves and others - and that includes decide who God is prematurely based on mis-interpreted scriptures.
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  brittvan22posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I agree that when developing a relationship with God you should do your homework, but also address the issues at hand. Jesus cursed a fig tree as well, even though it was not in season, but he still wanted a fig. Jesus was human as well as divine, in my opinion. He had doubts before his crucifixion (understandibly). Some Deist because Christ was not human only had a human appearance. Some believe Jesus was only human. There are so many facets to Christianity. Orthodox vs. Correlationist. There is room for others points of view.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I agree for the most part there, although I'm pretty sure Christ always knew, considering Peter said aloud that Christ knows everything speaking to Christ when He asked Peter a question.
  
  And He is divine in my book no matter anyone else's view is. I don't witness things I haven't experienced personally. lol
  
  Read your profile. Welcome to. We could use another "sense of humor" around the starks filling the forum world here.
  
  Beware of dog. - If you speak "Christ" they will come growling. Just saying, so don't be surprized. They're fiesty and active 'round here.
  
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  brittvan22posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  To say the least they could never say or do anything to destroy my relationship with YHWH. I am fiesty as well and call a spade a spade. I'm new, but not afraid to speak my mind. I am as my profile says open to discussion grr. lol, but I know when to put my foot down.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well, sometimes putting your foot down here means leaving them begging for more agruing, which they love to promote.
  
  Keep on the high ground of a point and leave if they bicker.
  
  Just advice, take it with a grain a salt.
  
  And "grr" lol - I like that.
  
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wheatbaybayposted 12 years ago
I think that the Garden of Eden was an experiment to see what would happen if Adam and Eve has enough love and faith in God to obey him even though they had everything and made perfect there was the temptation to posses something that was forbidden and they failed the test and so these was suppose to be a lesson for the rest of us and that lesson was to have faith and love for God and believe with all your heart that he will provide for you and take care of you and dont listen to those who want to tempt you with going it on your own without God's guidance.
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Without common sense and a good head on their shoulders, no book would replace what one doesn't have. If you're a morally correct person, you don't need the bible for moral substance.
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  wheatbaybayposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But that's just the Bible teaches us how to be morally correct you didn't wake up and know how to count to hundred someone had to teach you the Bible teaches moral laws like not to steal, not to kill, not to bear false witness against they neighbor,etc.
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No my parents were all the guidance I needed, they weren't christian and their morality outshines any christian's.
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  wheatbaybayposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  When you they taught how to be morally correct exactly what need they teach you right from wrong and how did they know what was right and what was wrong the Bible has given us the laws for everything even in our courts some of the laws are based on biblical laws.
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And? How does that pertain to me? I'm not stealing and killing... Too many people think that parents are just that supid... A good parent will save their child from the pain of consequence, they don't need fables for that, just a code of conduct that is socially acceptible.
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  Mankmanposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That's very true.
  
  Do you hate christians for some reason?
  
  I'm not christian myself, but is there a reason you're always so (how do I put it?) static?
  
  Toward christians in general?
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  mischeviousme
  
  Mankman may have a degree of truth there, sometimes it seems you have gone a little overboard @ Christians , and at times, I may have too. We can still shrink them down to minority within our lifetime by reasoning with them. if we remain reasonable in their presents.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  lol..
  
  Don't wear your unrealistic dreams on your sleeve Castle..
  
  I love you soo much buddy. You just break my giggle bank wide open.
  
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  About 85% of my dream come true and the other 12% I really did not want and 3% of my prediction was wrong because Bush won the second election, or maybe I was right because it was fixed.
  
  Already most people tell me they are spiritual rather than Religious and the true spiritual age will slowly takeover the majority of the people. The world changes it's self, no matter what you or I Think or believe about it. These prediction come by in a little voice, all I know, is it works
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, the Christian's will be killed and what's left will leave when Christ comes. Christianity, still won't be finished completely though. After the rapture, it's fortold a new uprising of Christians come about because of the awareness of the scriptures regarding the rapture.
  
  I'm hoping I get the easy route of flying off without bleeding first, but I guess a little blood never hurt anybody.
  
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  These kind of threats 400 time over in human history won't work any more . Mankind conscious has grown out of these silly med evil time hardship and practices of fear mongering. Live for each day with solutions of happiness rather the pass of quilt and regrets, maybe some day you will join us Vector
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I threatened YOU?
  
  Good grief Castle...
  
  I didn't know you'd die without me.
  
  Everything else in my Lord's book came true, I aint changing any details now.
  
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The world will change around you, then when it's time, you will think again
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Perhaps. I'm a bit skeptical myself. Spirituality comes and goes in different guises at different times. And frankly, the question of fulfilled prophecy has never been answered.
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The self prophecy about 2012, is The End,
  Although not enough guts or faith for any Christian landowner YET to sell me their property cheap
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  A good parent will save their child from the pain of consequences? I'll admit that a loving parent will sometimes save their child from the pain of consequences, I have, but a good parent does not do that under all circumstances. Sometimes the child must feel the pain of the consequences of their action because it is the only way they will learn not to do certain things. Kids who are shielded all the time grow up to expect that nothing bad will ever happen to them, or in other words, they will get bigger but they will never emotionally mature.
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It would be the worst parent in the world to allow most of your Children on earth to go to HELL
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Desperation gripping you Castle?
  
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  My castle is without hassle,
  
  Hell is not well, or rings my bell
  
  Happy to live without being desperation by the fears of hell
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Keep on turning that record.. lol
  
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  My aim is to keep scratching that horrorable record about HELL while we all have a good belly laugh
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yep. You do that.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What do you mean by "allow?" You seem to be arguing that a good parent would under all circumstances shield their children from the pain of consequences. Which is logically impossible in this world, because that would mean that anyone could do anything and it would have no negative effects in this life.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, but I would not have set up kids up for a painful failure. I intervene when one is going in the wrong direction. If I'm going in the wrong direction I haven't been spoken to yet. I'm waiting!
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The point I was trying to make (not as successfully as I'd hoped) is that if God really did shield all His kids (and that every human being who's ever lived for this discussion) then the world would be like a fantasy land, where anyone could fulfill any little desire they harbor in their heart of hearts (so far as is within their power, whether "good" or bad) with no consequences to anyone!
  
  So, for instance, Bernie Madoff could abscond with millions but Kevin Bacon would still be just as well-off as he was before. And let's not get started on Hitler!
  
  It may sound ridiculous, but it's the logical conclusion of the argument. And it's just not possible.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But we live in a world where some live in a fantasy world and other struggle to survive. Look at eh Saudi family. They named the country after the family name. They live in a fantasy world, make their own laws and do anything they like and produce the worlds worst terrorists. The fact that some live like that and other suffer is an indication that all is not aligned.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That's absolutely true, and that's absolutely consistent with the Bible and Christianity. The Bible teaches that this world is not in alignment, everything is out of whack.
  
  There's an entire philosophical discussion about rich and poor to be had in there too.
  
  However, if I remember correctly, Castlepaloma was trying to say that if God were truly a loving parent He would shield His children from the consequences of their actions, meaning that He just lets everyone into Heaven, no matter what. I was trying to point out one of the flaws in that theory.
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  God also created hell also, most people do not have Highway to Yahweh instruction book to be aware of all truth and knowledge. Which means, most of his children are going to Hell and they did not get their bible of threats, ahhh oh, I mean warnings
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It's true that not everyone has a Bible, but that does not mean that God does not provide people with a pathway to Him. It's just not always as obvious.
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Just say, most people do not have a bible and it is the most unread book also.
  
  Most people have no pathway to Yahweh God on earth,
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I would except that would be a lie all around.
  
  Sorry.
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It's fact, no lie, from experience traveling all around this earth
  
  I have only two rules to follow, you have many rules, being honest is a rule
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vector7posted 12 years ago
"Your going in the right direction here. Everyone has different reasons and there are thousands. There is no evidence that Jesus ever lived. The gospels were written well after his death (if he was even alive). All four gospels are different with the earliest have very few miracles and the last having many miracles. None of the writers every saw Jesus in person. It's my understanding the first gospel was written 30 years after the time of crucifixion and the last 100 years after crucifixion.
Don't even get me started on this cruel world and the cruel things in it. To many why would a god make this or do that to even talk about. Time to do a little critical thinking."

-Rad Man

-------------------------------------------------------------

See, lol.. You hit right where I was aiming.

Even Christ's most intense critics don't deny His existence. This is one of the twos that turned into a 12 somewhere on page three of the trig equation.

This is something I've proven repeatedly and the horse rotted away while I beat at it trying to prevent such statements. It's nothing more than repeated material to the point people start thinking "majority rules" and suck it down their "facts" tube.

I know you disagree, but that's my point. I have no clue how, as even pagan writings [many of them] include facts of Jesus' existence and certain events pertaining to Him. If you deny He exists, you should be pointing those texts out and refuting why they are all false, including the greeks govermental records and their personal scribes. If you say they don't exist [the said texts] then that just shows me you haven't looked at all the information and that is missing numbers. So it would be more like doing math with a bunch of variables rather than all numbers, which dramatically sets the individual attempting to solve it very far back in extra work.

And even then, before that, you are dismissing the Gospels when they were written within the lifespan of the claimed authors [reason?] and dismissing that they more than likely did write them as if it's automatically rejected. [Reason here? Because the content's subject is Christ?]

On the flip side of the "equals" operation sign, the Gospels not contained in the Bible have been proven to be falsified and rightly so expelled from any trustworthiness they might have previously held.

James Watkins wrote an article on the New Testament Canon explaining much of the basic framework, and a good portion of in depth history surrounding the accuracy of the texts.

As for the cruelty in the world, there are the emotions dropping weights on the negative option of your scale, positive being something, negative being lack of something.

You're assuming [unless i'm wrong and you have a reason that is] that God can't exist because...? Because pain exists? Plans don't work out, and because we can't see Him directly?

The options eluded or ignored, even if you keep your assumption on pain and cruelty and it's cause, are things such as Electromagnetic Force, which is what allows us to use any of the technology we design or build. It's built around the elements and power of EMF.

Without EMF your typer there wouldn't have a single operating componet. What is the reason, or cause, for something so powerful it accomplishes all that man is taking credit for?

The laws of physics and thermodynamics state a higher power exists, and considering we are under the control of the laws and cannot overcome them, our intelligence is far under whatever force holds these limitations for the system to operate that's in place.

These are things I don't understand regarding people's rationality. Starting at the top of this post, right on to the conclusion.

And the evidence for Christ, including the resurrection, is overwhelmingly astounding. So much so that many of the greatest minds in history have scrutinized the evidence, weighed it heavily, and counted it provable beyond doubt in their mind.

Mr. Keathley mentions many of the great minds I'm referring to here:

The Resurrection of Jesus Christ - Study By: J. Hampton Keathley, III

If people wish to discredit certain writings they can, and that is their calculation. But I don't see the meaning in saying things like "...if he existed..." when the "evidence" is stacked so insanely high for that one fact alone from both upholders and refuters alike.

I'm guessing there are some reasons for what I assumed you are assuming. I don't know.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't know if Jesus walked on land, but it's not my job to disprove he lived it's your job to produce evidence he did. You know that.
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I meant for yourself.
  
  Third paragraph: "...that just shows me..."
  
  I just meant it shows me that you haven't turned all the rocks yourself, for yourself.
  
  My job isn't to prove, it's to witness. I like to raise the bar often, but it doesn't mean it's my job.
  
  If you're satisfied thinking every document is a lie, inculding those of greek scribes and other secular record keepers, then that is your test score.
  
  I just really like helping people Rad Man.
  
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What greek scribes or secular records? I've looked and asked and found nothing but after the fact stuff. I really do want to know if the man walked on earth otherwise it would be the worlds largest hoax. It still would prove he was the son of God though, but it's a start.
  
  Interesting you think I should look harder for God, have you done what I've done? Looked critically for the absence of God?
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  vector7posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You know you can't prove the absence of something unless you have access to all of existence, which we don't being finite.
  
  Even with that said, I have thoroughly considered the concept of a "godless" world and personally, given elements I can't ignore, I can't conclude it's possible anymore.
  
  And you were absolutely right, I can't "choose" to not see it now that I have, so well done there. Glad we agree on that now.
  
  Got to go train and some other things. Give me some time and I'll collect some of the resources I have and some I searched out in the past for you to look at if you want.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You've got my respect. It's hard to admit being wrong, but it's a sign that your thinking critically and honest with yourself and others. I personally think that's all that's important. It's the mark of a good person.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Looking critically for the absence of God is neither difficult nor even really avoidable in today's world. I understand that many atheists feel they're constantly getting religion shoved down their throats, but from the standpoint of a Christian I feel like I'm constantly being attacked, berated, harangued, questioned mocked and emotionally flogged for even having a faith, let alone Christianity.
  
  Okay, that was a bit of hyperbole, but just barely. The fact is that in the last ten years, "militant atheism" has kind of exploded and it's actually harder to find someone (often even inside the church) who has "looked for God" than someone who thinks they're being brave and courageous for denying Him. The number of people who take the Bible on faith is shrinking, the number of people who talk openly about how stupid the Bible is are growing. And the people who actually, really study the Bible (certainly to any great degree, I'm not one of them) is getting smaller every year.
  
  Having once not been a Christian, I have some idea of what it's like. In the 80's, when I was a teenager and the Religious Right was on the rise, it was easy to feel that Christians were everywhere and being very judgemental. And there was some truth to that. But in the early half of the 21st Century, even the Federal Government is actively attempting to undermine Christianity (that's not hyperbole, I'm referring to the provision of the Health Care Reform Act that requires religious institutions to provide no-cost contraception and abortifacents.) I don't want to speak of what I don't know for sure, but I have heard stories up in your neck of the woods where preachers were publicly reprimanded and forced to pay restitution for preaching that Islam is not the only way to Heaven, while Muslims are not under any such constraints.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Muslims and some other middle eastern religions do get some extra liberties up here. The case you bring up doesn't ring a bell, but religious freedom is important up here and claiming certain things are part of ones religion creates some unique problems. Our laws against hate speech are very strong, so some Americans can't be given an audience here. Covering ones face is a particular interest of mine. I do like where France has been going with this and I think Canada will follow. I think muslims get away with things because people are afraid of them. There was recently a case where a muslim private school had hate literature on the website that they were using to recruit new children. They did apologies and take it down, but holy cow. Interestingly enough Ontario has a publicly funded separate school board for Catholics. I went through it and my kids are using it now. Talk about inequality because all other faiths have to pay for private school, it has been somewhat rectified by allowing any one of any faith access to the Catholic School board. The school board tries to discourage anyone from using it but they can't so no. So my oldest son's best friend in a Catholic high school is a muslim.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It's ironic that in many places I've lived, the Catholic school system is considered by many people to be superior to the public school system. Here in the Indianapolis area, where vouchers were enacted a few years ago, Catholic schools were primed to accept the students and parents flocked in droves to place their kids in Catholic schools for just that reason. It's added fuel to the fire in the education wars here. It's interesting that even a Muslim would attend a Catholic school.
  
  I think you're right that many people are afraid of the Muslims. I know that sounds a little racist, and it's not quite that cut-and-dry. But there are Imams who are not shy about stating that Islam deserves special considerations that other groups do not. Many sources, both secular and religious, have talked about how Islam takes advantage of the very religious liberties that it would deny other groups.
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suzettenaplesposted 12 years ago
No- evil is the invention of man.
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Eric L. Andrewsposted 12 years ago
Yes. God created the angels, including the Devil, in heaven and then Satan and his followers revolted against God. Satan is evil and tempts us. God created man with free will. If we sin, and therefore commit evil in differing degrees, it comes from Satan, not God.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  How does that work? We do good, thank God. We do bad, the devil did it. Where does free will come into play?
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, that's true, but we cannot use that as an excuse. I'm not assuming you do, but there are many people for whom "the devil made me do it," is thought to be a genuine rationale for doing bad things. We are still responsible for what we do, and only by turning to Jesus can we hope for redemption.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Poor god. You'd think the angels were smarter than that being created by god and all. I wonder what god did to make them so mad at him? You think he worked them too hard or something? What do angels do in heaven anyway? Do you really believe Satan got them all together and said, "hey guys, lets take over heaven"?
  
  this is especially dumb with them having the knowledge god knew everything beforehand. This scenario is so stupid it reeks of inanity!
  
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  Friendlywordposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I have questions. Is it a sin or offensive to Christians to speculate about what you think happened during events discussed here or in the Bible? Do I have to quote passages from the Bible to support my speculation? This will be my first Religious hub about what I think happened during a certain event in the Bible.
  Are there any rules or consequences I should know before I write the hub?
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  There are always consequences even if believers say we have free will. And as I've gotten banned frequently for what I considered making a joke, I'm the last to give you advice on anything here.
  
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  Friendlywordposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Welcome back Randy!
  I hope we can post for awaile without interruption.
  Good luck!
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  One never knows what the hall monitors will deem a banning offense here, FW! It depends on how much one kisses up or goes along with the program to some extent. Some are protected from being banned more than others because they are in a "special" group and go along with the agenda no matter what it is.
  
  But I have to speak out about things I find wrong, no matter the consequence. Self respect is still important to me and others here, despite the attempts to quell any dissent from TPTB.
  
  Good to be able to put my 2 cents in again! Thanks for the welcome back, FW!
  
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I didn't see the jokes you got banned for (I heard about one of them...)
  
  Yeah, we have free will but we still answer to authority (and here I'm not talking about God.)
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It's not like people who believe in God never wrestle with that question.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Perhaps, but one's own wrestling ability determines the outcome of the match. It's not normally won by those who ignore their own experience and prowess in previous battles.
  
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Normally, you're right. But not everyone fits into "normally."
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SpanStarposted 12 years ago
Interesting-we as human beings or at least too many of us, murder, steal, rob, torture, rape, lie, go to war day after day, generation after generation and when asked why is this evil occurring? Some people stand tall with the blood still dripping from their clothes and say that God who we don't believe in and doesn't exist is the reason for all of this-Interesting!
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And the majority who believe in god stand tall with the blood dripping and blame it on another nonexsitent being.
  
  Really, really interesting how many hide behind a mask and make attacks in God's name - you for example. Disgusting how many believers will kill rape and murder. Why is that?
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  SpanStarposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Mark,
  
  How is it that you are constantly being bias by saying believers will kill, rape and murder.
  
  Are we to take that nonbelievers do not kill, rape, and murder?
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Are you saying that only believers kill and rape and murder?
  
  You say you hate hypocrites, well there are plenty who claim to be Christian. But Jesus never told anyone to do those things. It's not the faith in God that causes these problems, it's the lack of will or ability to follow through with what Jesus said.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  How do you know exactly what Jesus did, Chris? Most of his supposed life was not recorded at all. Around 20 years or so, right? How do you know what happened during this time?
  
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  We know what Jesus said. We know that until He turned 30, the age when a priest was consecrated, He didn't carry on a priestly ministry on Earth. We don't know every detail of His life between 12 and 30 because we don't need to. If He had done things contrary to His own teaching, the book wouldn't have stood. Christianity would be about as popular as Mithra-ism. And there were plenty of people who knew Jesus (they didn't believe in Him as Son of God, but they knew a man named Jesus.) They would have been very quick and more than happy to talk about what a liar He was.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry Chris, but there are no factual records of people who knew Jesus personally. There have been some historical writings which were later corrupted by religious zealots to try and make it seem Jesus existed--the works of Josephus as just one example--but none so far which actually describe him personally. Feel free to prove me wrong, just please don't put up links to nutty religious sites as your evidence. Been there, done that!
  
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  At this point, the only thing I can say (it's late, and I'm tired) is that the evidence does point to that Matthew, Mark and John did actually know Jesus. Peter knew Paul, and vice versa. Many of the early church fathers knew the Apostles.
  
  That doesn't require any weird sites.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It's fairly well established only one of the mentioned books was the original with the other two being written from the first. All of them came much later after the death of the supposed Jesus. The authors of these books are unknown ergo the "according to" disclaimer appended to the titles.
  
  And why does only one of them mention the corpses walking the streets and the darkness which is alleged to have descended upon the earth at the time of the death of Jesus. None of the contemporary historians mentioned these events and they would have had they happened. They described other natural disasters in the area such as the eruption of volcanoes, so why didn't any of them mention total darkness and dead people coming out of their graves?
  
  Where is the evidence--other than the novel-- Matthew, Mark, and John actually knew Jesus?
  
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, Mark came first. This was Mark retelling Peter's account. Then Matthew (who refers to himself as Levi) wrote an account based on his eyewitness that used a lot of Mark's, but also had a much more Jewish emphasis. Luke, who was not one of the Apostles but was an associate of Paul, researched and used Mark as a starting point. John did not use Mark's account, and his emphasis was much deeper and more highly Christological. His was different because he was writing in response to the rise of the gnostic teachers.
  
  Kind of, but that's still misleading. First, all of them were written within the lifetime of people who had been there. John wrote in the 90's, sixty years after Jesus' crucifixion.
  
  Paul's writings, on the other hand, appeared within two decades of Jesus' death. He did not meet Jesus in person unless you believe the conversion story in Acts (which needless to say, I do.)
  
  It's generally thought that the Apostles were too busy telling people about Jesus orally and didn't think there was a need for writing, until Christianity started spreading to Roman and Greek cultures. Jewish culture had writings, but depended a lot more on oral teaching and memory.
  
  Perhaps...
  
  The dead rising, I can't explain. I wonder about that one myself. The darkness, I wish I could remember where I read it (it's in one of my books) but there is a record of a darkness around that time.
  
  The church fathers. Many of them knew especially John.
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  DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Paul was the very first person to write about "Christ" jesus was added to his writings until later...according to Pauls own words...his conversion happened around 32 CE...So Jesus had to have been cruxified much earlier as "Saul/Paul" was persecuting "Christians" when he converted...
  
  The Authors of the 4 Gospels are unknown...The Book of John may have been written by someone who knew "John the Elder" or "John the Beloeved" as that is what the is claimed in the last chapters of John.
  
  Why would Matthew (a direct eyewitness) need to copy his story from anyone, much less a person who may or may have not been a follower of Peter.
  
  The Author of Luke/Acts, flat out states that his version is taken from "historical" sources. Why would a follower of Paul, need historical facts to write the book of Acts if he was present for most of the actions of Paul...And why is there no mention in Acts of Pauls letters to the Churches of Asia? Why do the timelines of Pauls conversion and early ministry not match between what is written in Acts and what Paul himself wrote?
  
  Food for thought...for anyone...not directed to anyone in particular...
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Depends on what you mean by "much earlier," because he was persecuting Christians within a very short time of Pentecost Sunday.
  
  You lost me there. You mean "the disciple whom Jesus loved?"
  
  It certainly was uncommon for writers to sign their work back then, but the church fathers have attested that John was written by John, and they have attested the other works too.
  
  If you're asking, "Why did he write the same thing?" he didn't. He did say many of the same things, but not all. He did add some things not in Mark. As I wrote, it was a more distinctly Jewish emphasis and it was meant for a more Jewish audience.
  
  If you actually read the book you'll see that his language changes for the times when he would have actually been present, using the pronoun "we" for instance. For the times when he wasn't there (and there were certainly a few of those) he would need to ask someone who was.
  
  As for the unmatching timelines, I'm not that familiar with that. I will need to do some research.
  
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  DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I do believe I have told you before what my formal education focus was.
  
  So when I post about the text of the bible, it comes from what is taught and/or known to todays scholars.
  
  I would recommend taking a formal class or two...just my thought
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You may not need or want to know, but what he did in those years is just as important as what you claim he did after 30.
  
  Why? Because it is vital to know his background, just like is it to know the background of anyone else you meet. Otherwise, you can never know the person.
  Actually, sure it was. It would prove the book you read from was manipulated by others and the absence of knowledge Jesus' early life could shed light on that fact.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I never said I didn't want to know. But what do we need to know? First Century Israel isn't like modern America. Jesus lived in a small town. His entire ministry took place in less than 100 square miles. You know the joke about small towns? The great thing is, everybody knows you. The bad thing is, everybody knows you (and I've lived in small towns and it's so true.) Everybody knew Jesus. "Is this not the carpenter's son?" Manipulation of source material back then would not have been as easy as people want to believe it would have been. The first written books came out well within the lifetimes of people who would have been there. The Jewish leaders did try to discredit Jesus in the Talmud.
  
  The Bible has more fragments and entire books for us to look at than any other ancient document. We can see where differences came from and what they were. Manipulations would be spotted.
  
  And again, this is First Century Israel we're talking about. In other words, people back then in that place were even more concerned with the background of somebody than you are. And I've certainly wondered about things. But the Bible as a whole fits together much better than that.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't blame the worlds cruelty of God. I do blame some of the cruelty on religion, but just some. I can't blame God because he doesn't exist, but religion does.
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Druid Dudeposted 12 years ago
BUT...and it's a big but...Satan has to clear everything with God. God only allows him to do so much, as demonstrated by Job. Sounds like all my problems, ultimately, are God's fault. There's that split divine personality again!
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Or, there is no God or Satan.
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Druid Dudeposted 12 years ago
We have a quota to fill. I filled mine last night...you know, raping and killing. Me ma bitched at me for dripping blood all over her carpet. I was surprised she knew who I was, what with the mask and all.
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  Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  OR: We are both of them, and mankind has been psycho-analizing himself for thousands of years. Rad....I stated this yesterday. Being that people have believed in god for tens of thousands of years, then the claim that GOD DOESN'T EXIST is the real extraordinary claim...which means that the burden of proof rests there.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Why, humans thought the world was flat for a long time does that make the world flat?
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  carlarmesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Are you sure the world is not flat?
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, because I can see stars light years away but can't see the ends of the earth. Don't tell me you think the world is flat as well? Just go to an ocean an notice you can't see the other side. Humans once thought that earth was the centre of everything and everything revolved around the earth. We know better now. Do you need a lesson in that as well?
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  carlarmesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  and I thought the stars were just distant light bulbs, 100 watts. Disc world seem a good idea, in between flat and round.
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  Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You say 'humans thought the world was flat' when actually the ones who seem to have thought it was flat was mainly the europeans.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't know what the point of that comment was. Perhaps you should go back and look at the conversation again.
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  Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  When you say 'humans thought the world was flat' that indicates that all humans thought the world was flat. At the time of Columbus, the Vikings knew the world wasn't flat. You make an unsupported statement in your comment. I am merely pointing out that it is in error. You make a lot of errors. I like you.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  We all make errors. It's human nature. I think you knew what I was talking about.
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carlarmesposted 12 years ago
Man made god in his own image, and then screwed up by inventing a whole bunch of religion to go with it.
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SpanStarposted 12 years ago
How funny the sanity of Christians is question while there those who ignore the insanity by worshipers who are not Christians.

People are willing to believe in Pet Rocks, invisible goldfish and they call Christians delusional?

The following website addresses other false idols people are only too willing to believe in.

Worshiping false idols

http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/10Comma … id=8712532
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  SpanStar
  
  People are willing to believe in Pet Rocks, invisible goldfish and they call Christians delusional?
  
  Do they really worship their whole soul into those pet Rocks and invisible goldfish and how many people out there, still do this?
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  Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If you believe in yourself, truly and completely...then you believe in God. These are the real teachings of the man called Jesus.
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Druid Dudeposted 12 years ago
"God is the author of all things. Good or evil" Look it up.
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  Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  To the above comments aimed at my "Two edged sword of knowledge" comment, and the following comments relating. All knowledge has a positive and a negative. Whatever you want to focus on. I made no comment about intelligence. Mankind speaks for itself.
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Druiddude.
  If you believe in yourself, truly and completely...then you believe in God. These are the real teachings of the man called Jesus.
  
  For most of the World Population , you are really saying they are not them selves because they don't believe in Jesus and his Father Yahweh as the be all and end all and only speaker for their soul.
  
  I'm the boss of myself and speak for myself first, not one of the 10.000 Gods speak for my whole soul, yet everyone is free to share the love and the great beyond.
  
  Or dose all souls and bucks stop at Yahweh?
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carlarmesposted 12 years ago
God is evil to many who do not believe, or at least they feel religion is an evil force on the planet and does more harm than good at the moment.
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  When the punishment of hell is far worst than the crime of sin, then yes the harm to our minds and souls is greater or how many members would join their fight club without the greater fear of punishment which they pay for in over obedience
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look4signsposted 12 years ago
God created everything! even those little polystyrene nuggets in boxes of fragile electrical equipment. But then the question you really want to ask is Did evil create God?
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Not a bad question , maybe he is Lord Satan
  
  Welcome to the Hub pages
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Druid Dudeposted 12 years ago
Rad...Read our above exchange. O.K. You're right. Other animals invented good and evil. We are following their rules. The forum is Did God create Good and Evil. Keep the animals out of it. They listen to God w/o question....WE DON'T.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Lost me. Where did I say animals invented Good and evil?
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  Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You didn't directly say that. I took what you said and scored some points at the basket w/ your ball. The point is: Why drag animals into this. You are obviously in no position to determine what of "Good or Evil" animals may or may not be aware of. My dog knows when he's done something I don't like (Pooping on my rug, for instance) I don't expect my dog to analyze WHY I don't like poop on my rug.
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  Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The main reason he knows he's done something wrong is MY reaction, or his memory of my reaction the last time he pooped on my rug. In the latter case, he slinks off to hide in the corner before I even see the poop.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  He knows he can't bite. Have you ever seen a dog apologies? I have, it's very cool. They know it's not right to hurt and they feel bad if it happens. Just like us.
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Okay, correct. We are not alone at knowing right form wrong. We did talk about that, but was confused at the way you worded it.
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  Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  My dog got the "LAW" from a higher power:ME. I am my dog's equivalent to God. W/o ME, pooping on the carpet would be fine and dandy. That is the moral code which I, Druid Almighty instilled in my dog, right down to the FEAR OF DIVINE PUNISHMENT. By the way, he proofread this, and agrees.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Actually Dogs instinctively know not to poo or pee in there den. He was just confused as to where the den was. If you need proof leave him crated. He won't poo or pee there. I personally think my dog is smarter than me (don't say it) because it's me who follows him around picking up his poo. He must think I'm an idiot. He tells me when to open the door to the back yard so he can come in or out and when I get stressed out he make me scratch his back until I feel better. He even lets me know when he doesn't like someone. He is a great judge of character, he doesn't like my father in law either.
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getitriteposted 12 years ago
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SpanStarposted 12 years ago
Not that anyone cares because so many people really aren't interested in listening only arguing.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
This is the message we heard from Christ and are reporting to you: God is light, and there isn't any darkness in him.

http://bible.cc/1_john/1-5.htm

Here's a scenario which I'm sure some will find ridiculous:

Let's say a wealthy rancher hires about four or five ranch hands. At the end of the workday these ranch hands go into town get drunk start fights and do some other unsavory things. Does that now mean the ranch owner is evil and responsible for having created this mess?
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  Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Congrats! You just won the Parable Prize for May! Just under the wire I might add.
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  SpanStarposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you, I am ever so humbled.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, if the owner could see the future and knew what the ranchers would do.
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  SpanStarposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You know it has been reported that some psychics who have tried to help police investigations in a number of situations wind up being the prime suspect.
  
  I don't know about you but for me I would be hesitant in revealing what I know about the future.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I know nothing of the future. If I did I wouldn't have invested in Blackberry. In the situation you laid out, you were attempting, I think, to show that God could not be responsible for the bad things we do. It's not a fair analysis because the owner of the ranch doesn't have knowledge the future as does your supposed God. If the owner did have knowledge he would be responsible.
  
  eg. If someone lets out 3 pit bull's that are known to attack small dogs when a miniature poodle is walking by then the owner would be held responsible because he knew his dogs would attack.
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  SpanStarposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Rad Man,
  
  Your assessment as to God's culpability when it comes to evil performed by men is correct.
  
  Your idea that God is responsible simply because he knows the future is not correct. Knowing the future or having that ability does not necessarily make you responsible those events.
  
  Let's take this situation two men get into a confrontation the police released one and take the other one down to the police station. While at the station the angry man professes to the police that he is going to kill the individual he had a confrontation with.
  
  The police now has future information that someone is going to be killed. But the police does not arrest this individual-why?
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Because he hasn't committed the murder yet. Once he does he get arrested. He may even be charged with uttering a threat.
  
  Look back at my dog analogy. The owner of the pit bulls get charged because he know the dogs would attack and when they did he gets charged.
  
  Your analogy doesn't make sense because no murder has been committed. If one know the future and lets it happen, he is responsible.
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  SpanStarposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Your premise is knowing the future automatically make you responsible and perhaps in a few instances that might be true. But having future knowledge does not in all situations make a person liable.
  
  Example:
  if two companies are trying to buy out a third company and one company gets information that the third company will sell out for X. number of dollars, when at the negotiation table they win the bid are they liable for beating out the first company?
  
  If you are friends with the bride and groom and you happen to overhear the groom making hotel reservations for himself and some female you've never seen before are you obligated to step in and prevent this event?
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It's interesting that you don't respond to my example, but I respond to yours. knowledge of future does indeed constitute blame if harm is done. Insider trading will get you in jail and don't forget my dog attack example. Think!
  
  You first example is false because no one in particular can except blame. I would bet however if the company that lost found out the other had inside information there would be a law suit.
  
  In the second example no crime has taken place. But if you were a good friend you'd help. However lets pretend a crime was about to take place and you find information that someone is about to kill someone else. It's you moral and lawful duty to get help. You would certainly would be found guilty of accessory to murder.
  
  Well that sucks, in every case, knowing there will be a crime and doing nothing to prevent it is a crime in itself.
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  SpanStarposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I do give you credit for your scenario regarding the dog incident which caused me to modify my comments by injecting not all the time from my standpoint and point of view.
  
  When you say people are obligated to intervene that maybe what we'd like to see but in reality it does not always occur.
  
  Attorneys, priests keep evidence crucial to a crime or relationships to themselves and in some cases a court order has to be issued before they are willing to divulge that information.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Attorneys, priests keeping evidence crucial to a crime is completely irrelevant to guilt. One can get away with a crime and still be guilty. If God knows evil will happen and does nothing he is guilty of evil. Makes you think don't it?
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  SpanStarposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well it doesn't look like we're getting anywhere so I'll say what I have to say and then move on.
  
  You consistently say one who has prior knowledge or future knowledge and does nothing to prevent events which will take place at some point in time is liable. But when it comes to mankind you dismiss their involvement but God is always to blame where as mankind is always exonerated.
  
  There are a number of reasons why people who have prior knowledge/future knowledge should not get involved because the outcome has not been determined yet. God tested Job because he felt Job would be faithful. Even though Job did not sin completely he did sinned partially in God's eyes. Once again God thought that the outcome would be one way but ultimately it turned out to be another way.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, and yes.
  
  If the first company knows something that the second company does not, it may very well come under the heading of "insider trading."
  
  If you hear the groom preparing to do his bride dirty, you do need to step in. Maybe not directly, depending on your relationship with the bride and/or groom, but you need to tell somebody. Otherwise, you are just as responsible.
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  Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Then he wanted them to go to town to blow off steam, otherwise they'd get drunk and nasty and tear up his place. There's the prob. No place for a anyone to blow off steam!
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Johnathan L Groomposted 12 years ago
e=mc 2
if Good exists,
then so must Evil exist
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That's backwards. Good can exist without evil, although only God would truly know what is good then. But good must exist for us to know what evil is.
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sabrebIadeposted 12 years ago
Unless the KJV has a really bad translation....

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Isaiah 45 verse 7
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beaddveposted 12 years ago
In one of the philosophical views, god does not create evil because they are purely opposite to each other.

I don't remember what the argument exactly, can someone recall?
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  SpanStarposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not sure if this is what you are looking for but Jesus told the people a house cannot stand if it's divided.
  
  If a house is divided it will tear itself apart.
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, One world religion will do...mmm,
  
  You try separating the grand ego of all and each of the Gods and God, which I call fight clubs
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  SpanStarposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  When this timeline ends there will be a one world government.
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Who will run this One World Government ?
  
  Christians or Lord Satan because the Atheist are too lame to so
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  beaddveposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I am sorry. I mislead you.
  
  Here is the argument of problem of evil.
  
  1. God exists.
  2. God is omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good.
  3. A perfectly good being would want to prevent all evils.
  4. An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence.
  5. An omnipotent being, who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.
  6. A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.
  7. If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good being, then no evil exists.
  8. Evil exists (logical contradiction).
  
  If they are contradiction each other, how can god create evil?
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Love the use of logic.
  
  God created everything. God created Satan, Satan is evil, God created evil. Either there is no God or God created evil.
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HeadlyvonNogginposted 12 years ago
I'm sorry you don't get it. Evil and free will go hand in hand. It's that simple. Not sure how else to put it. Judging by your responses you think very little of me, so there's no point trying to explain it further because you're not going to listen to me anyway. An actual discussion requires mutual respect, which is entirely possible even when you disagree. We obviously don't have that here.

I cannot deny the possibility that I'm delusional, but why on earth would I be purposefully deceptive? What would I have to gain?

Mere happiness is not the goal here. Free will is a gift. Think of the differences between modern humans and aborigines. Sure, we could all be happy and content, assuming we had some sort of hardships along the way to give us the perspective to even comprehend what happiness and contentment is. But we wouldn't have science and music and literature and art and cities built with stunning architectural structures and everything else that man has accomplished in the past 7000 or so years that has altered the landscape of this planet and enhanced each of our lives.

Free will isn't just the capability to 'do evil'. Free will is the capability to create. God made us creators. The thing is you can create constructively or destructively, hence the potential for evil. He could have just made beings that only followed His will. In fact, He did. There are still plenty of tribal cultures today who still live just as early humans did for tens of thousands of years, content with simply surviving. But what would be the point of that? Just living to live until you die? Sounds awesome.

Being an artist and musician myself, I'm really glad God doesn't think like you do.

You realize that's not what omniscient means, don't you? Besides, you can't give beings their own individual minds and have perfection. It just doesn't work that way. If only perfection was possible, then you wouldn't truly have your own mind or the capability to make your own choices. In other words, if the answer to every question were TRUE because there was no such thing as FALSE then you don't really have a choice.

You're kind of right here. This life, this existence, is how we learn. Trial and error, as you say. But without God there would be no existence, no society, no life to learn from. He set up the environment and placed us in it to experience and to learn from that experience. And it works really well.

Created with wisdom intact, huh? It's kind of ironic that the very same paragraph that starts with that ends with you calling my thinking 'shallow'. Wisdom cannot be given. It must be earned through experience. Wisdom given isn't really wisdom. It's just information that without experience cannot be fully comprehended.

First off, hardships and death are part of life. Without them you'd have no grasp of good times or happiness and no respect for or grasp of how precious life really is. Life as we know it wouldn't be possible without death. Many died for you and I to be here now. When we die we'll continue the cycle as well. Death is life. Hardship is life. That's how you gain wisdom. That's how you grow and learn.

God gave early man specific commands; be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, subdue the earth, establish dominance in the animal kingdom. And that's exactly what homo sapiens did. The hardships they endured, the conditions they adapted to, prepared our physical bodies generations later.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Headly, I purposely didn't reply to your comment because I was hopping someone else would as we went down this path before. getitrite did a superb job of addressing your issues, but you claim he is not going to listen to you anyway so why bother? The truth is you didn't listen to him as you did not listen to me. You seem to try to lead people into a particular direction and spring your spew on them. You don't want a debate you want to be listened and you justify and rationalize everything to your own beliefs.
  
  Your free will argument is nonsensical because it defies real logic. Everything getitrite said was logical and well said.
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SpanStarposted 12 years ago
As parents if our children leave our homes and in school or on the streets start bullying people, stealing purses, using foul language etc.

Then according to your point of view that would mean we as parents are evil.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No because once again we don't have knowledge of the future in that case. We as humans hold someone responsible if they knew bad or evil was about to happen and that person did nothing. Doing nothing is an accessory to the crime. If you do nothing when you know what the outcome will be you are liable. You are liable if you let your vicious dog attack a person or dog when you knew they would attack. You are an accessory to a crime if you know someone is about to do a crime and you do nothing. These are facts. For some reason you want to let God off of an accessory to evil. Saying God can do no evil when he is an accessory to evil is denial.
  
  In the last scenario you described you forgot that the parents didn't know the child would do harm. If when the child leaves the house he says he is going with a gun and says he will shoot his friends and the parents do nothing they are an accessory to the crime because they could have stopped it.
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  SpanStarposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Your argument is that God created evil so it does not matter that we know whether or not our children are going to do evil if they do evil it is because we created them to do evil I believe that is the basis for your argument.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Wow, no. My argument is we can't say that God is incapable of evil because when one know that someone is about to do evil, but does nothing, that in fact is evil. If God did not know the future then one could say he is innocent of evil. If God does know what the future holds and does nothing then God is not innocent of evil.
  
  You keep forgetting that as parents we don't know what the future holds for our children, but God apparently, according to some does.
  
  If you believe in God and believe he can see the future and is all powerful he would have know about 9/11 but did nothing to stop it. Why? It just doesn't make any sense.
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  SpanStarposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not going to spend a lot of time on this because we're just going around in circles.
  
  Once again someone having knowledge about an event which will occur does not necessarily make the person-listener liable or responsible.
  
  Example:
  You are an ambassador of the United States you have negotiated terms between our country and that country what ever those terms might be. The leader of the Third World country after negotiations says that he is going to head back to his country and eliminate the rebels who have been giving him problems. Now that you know this are you going to declare war on this third world country since you are aware of his intentions?
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No, since you have prior knowledge you have to make an attempt to tell other and stop him otherwise you knowingly let people die.
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  HeadlyvonNogginposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Stopping it makes no sense. Free will is free will. If you don't have the option to do evil things, then you don't truly have free will. If God intercedes and stops evil acts then again you don't really have free will. If RIGHT is the only possible answer because WRONG doesn't exist, or because God intercedes and changes your WRONG answer to RIGHT, then you don't really have a choice.
  
  God gave us free will. We through free will create evil. That doesn't mean He created evil. And this guilt by association because He knew it would happen and didn't stop it logic is silly. If there was no evil our will wouldn't be free. We'd all be living just like Aborigines right now. No art. No music. No inventions. No computers and internet and hubpage forums for us to argue in.
  
  Our capacity to create these things means we also have the capacity to make things and take actions that are destructive. The same inventiveness that created the architecture of Notre Dame also created the nuclear bomb. So does that mean God created the nuclear bomb? No. That means that He gave us minds capable of creating a nuclear bomb. If God, knowing that one day we would make a nuclear bomb decided to not give us the free will that makes it possible, then we wouldn't have Notre Dame either.
  
  If you had a son who one day killed a family while driving drunk, then later in life dedicated his life to curing cancer and succeeded, and you knew all of this ahead of time, would you choose to not have that son to save that family? Even if that event inspired him to change his life and eventually led to the cure for cancer?
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  SpanStarposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It does sound like you understand the situation-nice going.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Stopping it makes all the sense in the world. It's doesn't change free will. The 9/11 pilots and planners had the free will commit there crimes, but God could still have stopped the events. He could have stopped the planes 3 feet away from the buildings took out the bad guys and landed the planes safely. If of course he is all powerful. But he watched. Our own laws acknowledge accessory and it just as much a crime as the murder itself.
  
  What do you mean by Aborigines? I trust you're not being racist? My favourite art comes out of some aboriginal societies and cultures.
  
  Your example of the son killing a family while driving drunk and then proceeding to discover a cure for cancer make little sense. Are you suggesting that we let a drunk driver who killed a family go just incase he cures cancer? If you have a drunk driver who continues to drive drunk and kill people do you hand him your keys and bottle of whiskey? If you did and they killed someone you would be responsible.
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  HeadlyvonNogginposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes it does change free will. Free will is the cause and the effect. Interceding after the choice was made is still interceding.
  
  In the drunk driver/curer of cancer analogy, the bad decision made for whatever reason is the catalyst that led to the other. If you had fore-knowledge of this series of events, would you prevent the car wreck that killed the family if you could? Even if that meant that your son did not learn from that life-altering event that changed the course of his life that eventually led to him curing cancer?
  
  Life is a struggle for a reason. It's a limited space full of living things willfully driven to survive. Even naturally there will be conflict. That's part of it. And that is not evil. Then there's the willful actions we take on top of that to serve our own personal wants and desires. No matter the intentions, there are results of our actions. Human history has proven, and will continue to prove, how it should not be done, and most importantly why it should not be done this way. There'd be nothing to learn from, no wisdom to gain, if God stopped all the evil before it happened. What then would be the point of putting this whole ball of wax together?
  
  No, I am not being racist. Aborigines fascinate me. The most significant thing about them is that they are a line of homo sapiens that migrated out of Africa thousands and thousands of years before the big migration north out of Africa into Europe.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  In the drunk driver/curer of cancer analogy, if I had your Gods ability I would stop the accident, and make sure it doesn't happen again. If I were God I would have already taken care of Cancer. Wouldn't you have done the same?
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  HeadlyvonNogginposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So if you were God you would nerf life? Make it a fairy tale where everyone can still do whatever they want because your ideal God would be there to make sure nothing remotely bad ever actually happens? All freedom, no consequences?
  
  Really think that all the way through. How would people be in that world do you think? No challenges. No obstacles. No real danger. No risk.
  
  Let's say you took care of cancer and every other ailment. Let's take it further and say you removed the limited number of times cells can divide so that life never ended. What would compel you or anyone else to really do anything?
  
  Have you ever seen a tree grow in an environment where there is no wind? It has no strength. Think about the moments in your life that contributed most to your character. Would those moments have been as meaningful if there was no risk of failure?
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Free will is the lack of repercussions for actions. A threat of eternal damnation negates absolute free will.
  
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  HeadlyvonNogginposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Free will is choice. Choices have repercussions. How is free will the lack of repercussions? How does that work? If everyone has free will, and everyone can do what they want with no accountability? Do no two wills ever intersect through conflicting wants? What would that life be like exactly?
  
  At some point the buck has to stop. Like anything else there has to be an authority. Free will in every individual with no authority would result in chaos. There would be no peace. Humanity continuously proves that. One nation can establish their own chain of command. Choose their authority to maintain order. But there are always other nations who have a different idea of who should be in charge. For there to be an existence of harmony, everyone must acknowledge the authority of one leader.
  
  And that's all He asks of us. Belief. Acknowledgement that we're not worthy of being the one that knows what's best for all. Like Jesus said when asked which commandments were most important, "Love God, love one another". That's it. Acknowledge the maker as the one true authority, and respect each other.
  
  I'm not so certain eternal damnation is entirely right. 'Sheol' in the old testament often just referred to a grave. Hell, as described by Jesus, was an eternal flame that never goes out. But he also says to fear not those that can destroy the body, but the One that can destroy the body and soul in hell (Matthew 10:28).
  
  But even if it is eternal damnation, do you think everyone deserves a pass? No judgement of how people behaved in this life to determine whether or not they move on to the next? No accountability?
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  There are always repercussions for hard choices. It's the way of the world, not some invisible deity who apparently has a problem with self-worth if he wants his creations to worship him.
  
  What an extremely bored being he would have to be. People invented the laws but not everyone obeys them. This has been true since primitive man began living in small groups. No laws, no peace in the village. Putting a god in the mix just makes some feel more empowered than others. It always has.
  
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  HeadlyvonNogginposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It's not that God needs our allegiance to feed His own need. He's given us an incredible opportunity here. Life with our own individual free will. It's for us, but it will only ultimately work with the acknowledgement of a single worthy authority.
  
  Think of the events in the evolution of life. Like the Cambrian explosion. That abrupt change in the evolution of life where multi-celled organisms emerged. Organisms made up of cells much like the single-celled organisms that existed for billions of years prior, only these worked together by each doing their part as dictated by the DNA code formed and passed on by each successful life. If these cells didn't behave as they do then the organism wouldn't be.
  
  Multi-cellular life then continued on much like single-celled life before. Organisms adapted through the struggle of competing to survive. Through that came brains and legs and lungs and eyes and ears. Consciousness. Awareness. Self-awareness. And in recent centuries a growing awareness of the earth and the universe and our place in it.
  
  Just looking at the formation of life that led to here, why wouldn't there be a next big step? The more we learn about life and what all took place for it to be here at all, the more it proves capable of incredible things. There's no reason to think what life as it is now is the pinnacle of what it can be. And there's no reason to think that our becoming aware of our place in it means we are now in control of where it goes from here. We're just beginning to understand. And we know enough to know there's still a lot we don't know.
  
  The idea of God as described in the bible, as well as what that God requires of us, mirrors that Cambrian explosion that made life as it is now possible. Organisms work because of how cells behave according to the DNA code and in relation to one another. For free willed beings to truly do all the amazing things that humans do, yet actually coexist in harmony and mutual respect, this same system would have to be established. What Jesus said must be done to inherit eternal life would accomplish this ...
  
  Luke 10:27
  He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’ ; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”
  
  The way of the world as we know it is just the way of the world as it is now. Judging by everything life has overcome leading up to this point, there's no reason to think life can't overcome the current 'way of the world' to achieve something much greater. Knowing what we know now, I'd think we should be expecting it.
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Randy
  
  Your free will is free again, and your last thread grew well with many posts anyways
  
  Good to have you back
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks CP! I enjoyed my stint away from the different religious cults for a while. And thanks for keeping my thread going for a while. Some never did realize it was merely in response to another thread and was not meant to be taken seriously!
  
  Funny how some believers say the world is only around 7,000 years old while others use science to try and bolster their beliefs. Even the believers can't agree on what is real or not in their religion.
  
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Christian Science- what an oxymoron, lol
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I wonder who coined the phrase? Bet it was a fundamentalist!
  
  Better than "Scientific Christian," though!
  
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  One lady told me that Science is everything, then told me she is a strong Catholic
  
  You can't trump that, with logic
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm starting to think you don't know what Free Will is. For some reason you think it is a concept connected to religion. It's not. Free will is not about choices as much as it about destiny. The concept is that if one were to know what every atom in the universe were doing for even a millisecond one would be able to predict the future for eternity. Humans are pretty good at predicting when the Sun will appear and when mars will appear and all that stuff. The idea is if one can predict the future then we have no free will. If God knows the future we have no free will. I believe in free will and if you think God already knows the future you do not believe in free will because it matters not what choices you make he already know your choice. If I were you I would not associate free will with God because the two don't work together.
  
  I for one will choose free will. The stars are not aligned.
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  HeadlyvonNogginposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  This logic that free will doesn't exist if some being somewhere can see the future makes no sense. Knowledge of future events alone does not mean you didn't have those choices or commit those actions. That would only be true if God knew what you'd do and then intervened to alter your choice. You see knowledge of the future being one and the same with a set future. I get that. But it's not set from our perspective and we're the ones deciding the actions that determine the events. God's knowledge of future events doesn't mean that future is set in the linear time sense as we see it. God is outside of time. To Him the beginning and end are the same point. It's not linear, but it is not static either. It's all a matter of perspective.
  
  2 Peter 3:8
  But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
  
  Besides, the free will I'm talking about is what Genesis describes. "God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil"(Gen 3:5), "Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked"(Gen 3:7), "And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil"(Gen 3:22).
  
  It's a will apart from God's. As in not controlled or determined by God. Hence evil.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You don't understand the concept of Free Will, you just try to make sense of the bible. If you set aside the concept of God for a second you may be able to understand Free Will. Simply put if the future is predetermined the free will does not exist. If your God knows the future then your choices are already made and you have no free will. We either have free will and your God does not know the future or your God knows the future and our choices are already made. You simply can't have it both ways.
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  HeadlyvonNogginposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm sorry, but you're the one not understanding. Your use of the word 'predetermined' illustrates that. God's knowledge of the future is not one and the same as a predetermined future. It's no different than our knowledge of the past. It's all time. The only reason the idea of a known future seems 'predetermined' to us is because we only experience time in one linear direction. But according to your logic, everything that ever happened throughout the course of time is set and static if it can be seen, which would include past as well as future. Does our knowledge of choices and actions of the past mean the people who made those choices or committed those actions did not have a choice in the moment they made it?
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  As I said you simply don't understand the concept. If you would stop trying to make sense of God even for one second you would understand. You need to stop trying to tell me how God views time. Even if there is a God you would have no idea how he views time.
  
  I'll try one more time. For one second leave God out of this and it'll all make sense. I think we have free will to make choices that is why the future can't be predicted by anything or anyone. The theory is if one had knowledge of every atom in the universe one could predict the future. If I was aware of every atom in your brain I would be able to know what choices you would make. In this sense knowledge of the future make us unable to have free will because the choice are predetermined. Free will simply means we can choose and that the future is not yet determined. If God is truly omniscient we can't have free will.
  
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omniscience
  
  Taken from the above link.
  (Whether omniscience, particularly regarding the choices that a human will make, is compatible with free will has been debated by theists and philosophers. The argument that divine foreknowledge is not compatible with free will is known as theological fatalism. Generally, if humans are truly free to choose between different alternatives, it is very difficult to understand how God could know what this choice will be.)
  
  I'm not making this up.
  
  Can an omniscient, omnipotent, eternal, timeless, boundless, limitless, and uncontained Entity create that which it doesn't already know?
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  God created evil. How does this not influence our actions? Who is more likely to steal, rich men or poor? One's circumstances will determine the temptation one is subjected to in this world. Some are tempted more than others with pain, suffering, and threats to their family's security. Who is responsible for some being tempted more than others?
  
  If god created everything he also created evil, there's no getting around this if you believe in such a creature. So far, I've seen absolutely no evidence for such a being to exist, and furthermore, those claiming to believe in such a creature do not impress me at all with their justifications for doing so. And still, why wouldn't such a god choose those who can make sense out of the ridiculous old book instead of those who don't have a clue about it's origins or actual scientific facts. Why does he always choose those who are simply funny when they try and explain science and usually have very little education in the field?
  
  This is akin to having a street sweeper explain how a computer works.
  
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  HeadlyvonNogginposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  First off, please explain to me what exactly you would expect evidence of God to look like? What would you expect to see? Really think about that for a minute. Some would say the existence of this earth as it is, the delicate balance that makes it possible to exist as it does and sustain life, and the existence of living creatures evolved from the simplest of life forms into modern humans with self-aware conscious reasoning minds would serve as adequate evidence. Obviously you don't. So what would you expect to be different that would confirm for sure in your eyes that God does indeed exist?
  
  Second, what objective evidence have you ever seen that proves the existence of the conscious mind we experience? Externally, the function of the brain is nothing more than neuro impulses and oxygenated blood flow and chemical changes going on in a lump of biological matter in our skulls. What proof can you provide that proves our conscious experience really exists as we perceive it?
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  A caring deity which would not allow needless suffering of humankind for starters. But foremost, I would expect such a being to choose worthy spokesmen capable of making sense of his rule book, were he to actually have one. So far, most of those who claim to be in his good graces have a problem actually articulating his message to the point a realistic person can actually take them seriously.
  
  Someone once asked me what kind of miracle it would take to make me believe there is a god. "Nothing really earth shattering." I replied. "Just having all of the self-proclaimed christian cults agree what the bible actually says and become one group of worshipers would do the trick." You'd think he would be concerned at all of the infighting among these cults, but apparently not as they all believe THEIR cult is right.
  
  See above!
  
  I don't understand what having a "conscious mind has to do with believing in invisible gods. Unless of course, brain damage or complete ignorance of reality is where you are going with this query. Consciousness is not proven to be a result of any deity's making unless you have evidence to the contrary, and I'm sure you do not.
  
  SSSSS
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Sounds like the heaven is described. Doesn't it.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Many people do think that if God were truly good, He would end all suffering. Many believe by extension that all suffering is God's fault. I can see why people would believe that, and I've argued that what that actually does is rob us of the very humanity that they so prize (as I do as well.) It also explains why so many people believe in Universalism, or think that if there is a God, He should also be a Universalist.
  
  My wife has cancer and I know I would take it away from her in a heartbeat if I could.
  
  Which is why I'm not God.
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Druid Dudeposted 12 years ago
Rad...I was definitely not trying to say God isn't responsible for the bad we do. Here, in no uncertain terms is what I believe about "God", "Good and Evil"

Looking around, I saw that there was no evil...no evil in the birds, no evil in the oceans, no evil on the land. The only evil thing I could find anywhere in this entire known universe...were the thoughts and deeds of mankind against his/her fellow man. That's it Evil is the bad things we do to each other. I further believe that, yes, indeed, as Jesus described, God does dwell inside of us. We are material manifestations of this universe, and this universe very well could be a sentient being itself. If this is so...then it's all true. God, in the bible reflects characteristics which mirror the same characteristics as his 'Prime Creation'. He hates, he loves, he's jealous, he's judgemental, he's vengeful, he's forgiving, and unforgiving. God is everything we are, and we are everything God is. We are God. Is there any other 'Supreme Being' in this universe? At this time, we have absolutely no evidence that ther is. The banquet is laid out before us, out there beyond our planet, our solar system...we only have to get on with getting to the table.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well said Druid, except humans are not the only creature to do what you call evil things. Not by a long shot. Animals eat each other alive. They sometimes kill just for sport. Sometimes Chimps just kill for no apparent reason. Chimps go to war with rival tribes and kill as many as they can. Do a simple google search for (worst parasites) and you will see evil.
  
  At this time we have absolutely no evidence that any God or Gods exist. But it makes for an interesting discussion.
  
  I do like you honesty with me and yourself.
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  Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Animals do what animals are born to do. Not saying we are better, nor worse, but we are the ones who have taken it into our own hands, and crossed that line. What line. The line to be more than wewere. More than we are, because we aren't through forming yet, and to lose the spiritual side which is something which does contribute to what we are, could be a bad mistake. I couldn't agree more that organized religion...all of it, has to go. I can't wait to see the churches close their doors, but in the rush, we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water. (Or holy water, as the case may be) We have to continue to rise above what we are, but not at the expense of that which makes us human.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Humans do what humans are born to do. I have no problem with spirituality if it help someone cope with life. I'm surrounded by Christians. Most of my best friends don't know what I think because I don't want to jeopardize our friendship. There is nothing illogical in believing in God, but when one says God didn't create evil and is not capable of evil and then say that he created everything, I have a problem because a thinking person should be able to see the lack of logic.
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SpanStarposted 12 years ago
Time and time again God tried to get us to come back to him. The development of the Bible is an attempt for mankind to try and better understand God. Unfortunately we reject God time and time again, generation after generation. God says OK you don't want to listen to me then you're on your own. Being on our own still isn't enough for us human beings-No the evil that We Do-let me say it again-the evil that We Do we still point the finger at God. God why didn't you stop those wars where people lost their lives? God why are so many people starving, why aren't you feeding him? God why did you let those planes crash into those buildings?

In essence we don't like you God, we don't believe in God But why don't you keep cleaning up the mess that we keep making?
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Really? I find this statement to be misleading considering you wouldn't have any ability to know what any G/god would want. Just because you believe in the religious book you read, doesn't mean you are to apply it to everyone in reality. It's absurd. You have faith and have at it by all means. It's your belief of your personal relationship with said book G/god.
  
  The fact that you include every one and claim that G/god created everything in existence because you read it from book, isn't rational. The G/god of Christianity, as the book is written doesn't exist and has no probability of ever existing. For the pure and simple fact that G/god the concept itself is not possible on any level. (a)Omnipotent (b)Omniscient and (c) Omnipresent cannot exist in one place. It defies any and all logic.
  
  That's just like the people who make claims that things are an illusion and people cannot tell what is real and what is not real, because it boils down to what the person's brain interprets. The fact that people look at reality as if it's not real, yet it is defined and very much real. The interpretation your brain is making is accurate, and not an illusion.
  
  Delusion happens when ego gets in the way from accepting what is real. Those who are unable to grasp reality are the confused ones mostly. Which leads them to believing in things which do not exist and lay claim them as if they are real and part of reality.
  No. It's not about understanding G/god. It was solely written for the purpose of controlling people who apparently lack a conscience to do so on their own.
  Again, if you reject the G/god you read about, then I am proud of you. There's hope for you just yet. However, I'd like to point out something. Quit using the word "we". It's your G/god. It's you who has a relationship with it.
  It would be nice if his followers did the same. He leads you, yet you don't follow his example. WOW! What a shock.
  Again, quit with the word "we".
  It's a pathetic argument. Blaming something which has no need to exist for actions of the people of the world. Hmm...you know it does sound pretty dumb.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't believe that. I can see no reason why a deity would needs require suffering of little children, or any other human for that matter. The whole scenario of an all powerful being allowing a subservient minion to create havoc on his creations makes absolutely no sense at all.
  
  People aren't perfect. They are no more than highly advanced mammals who have instincts and urges like any animal does. No gods are needed for humans to cause harm to other humans. But many use them as an excuse to do so, and to control others by claiming to know what their particular deity wants.
  
  And it works, apparently. We see people on these forums all of the time claiming to know what their god wants.
  
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  SpanStarposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Your low opinion of human beings may be the reason we are constantly creating havoc for ourselves and the planet.
  
  Mankind is the only creature in the universe who has the capacity to change the world-no other creature can do this.
  
  If people are starving it is because we the people have created this condition, if people are robbing, killing, raping other people is because we the people have created this condition.
  
  We can point the finger all we want at God but the real problem is the person in the mirror.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  How could you possible know this. It is estimated that there are more planets than stars in our galaxy. We can only see the planets in our own galaxy. You talk about the entire universe. We can't even see the entire universe. We don't even know where it ends. Come on.
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  SpanStarposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I know this because these are the facts-Paleontologist accepts what they discover right now is the fact should something new and different come along in their discovery that is brought in as fact.
  
  Thinking, hoping, wishing that there are little green men out space does not make it so.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What? It not a fact. Some might think we are alone, but no one knows for fact.
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  SpanStarposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You know I can believe there is a parallel dimension and every person has a twin but until I can prove it it is not a fact.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Next time you go out at night have a look up at the stars. Imagine that there are more planets than stars. Imagine that you can only see a tiny bit of our own galaxy. Imagine billions of galaxies in our universe.
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  SpanStarposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Heck, I can use the Hubble telescope and see these galaxies but that doesn't prove that there's life on any of them.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No it doesn't, but you have no proof that there isn't.
  
  You posted
  "Mankind is the only creature in the universe who has the capacity to change the world-no other creature can do this."
  
  I just showing you that you have no idea if mankind is the only creature in the universe who has the capacity to change the world. Sure you could say (On this planet), but you can't say in the universe.
  
  And then you posted
  "these are the facts-Paleontologist accepts"
  
  which I found particularly funny because Paleontologists study prehistoric life. I wouldn't ask them if they think life exists elsewhere. For that I'd ask an Astronomer perhaps.
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  SpanStarposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  My point regarding paleontologists is that once they have made their find they don't go about presupposing unknown fossils.
  
  Once again until life is proven it exist on other planets in other galaxies then that is proof enough they don't exist.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Proof enough for you perhaps, but then, I thought you were into blind faith in an unseen deity. Are they easier to see than unseen aliens?
  
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HeadlyvonNogginposted 12 years ago
I get what you're saying. You're not getting what I'm saying. I'll leave God out this time if that's what is confusing things. You're still talking about prediction here based on whether or not events and behaviors are pre-determined by the make-up or state of matter. I agree we have free will in this sense.

In the way you see free will, if you were able to disconnect from time, skip around and see it out of order, would your ability to see mean that the events and behaviors you witnessed are pre-determined? Or only that you were able to see time out of order?

Prediction of a future that hasn't happened yet is not the same as being able to actually see the full timeline all at once. It's not a prediction in that case. Choices are merely fact from the point in time they were made forward, tied to the moment in which they were made. They are not in any way tied to or determined by the state of physical matter.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So you have reconciled the Omniscience Paradox by saying God must see everything at the same time. Unfortunately that makes no sense. Wether one sees time different than us does not change the paradox. Plus you have no knowledge of how you God views time. You just keep inventing powers to serve your own purpose. But I'll play that game anyway. It doesn't matter how said God views time he still according to you, knows the future. If he knows the future free will can't exist. Unless you are going to tell me your God doesn't know the future. If that were the case that would explain why Andromeda Galaxy is schedules to have a collision with the Milky Way in about 4 billion years. He must have missed that. Maybe he'll stop it from happening. Probably not.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Sort of like praying to a god who has known from the beginning you were going to pray for something and already knowing what decision he would make concerning your prayers millions of years beforehand. Why play out the scenario he already knows the ending for long before it happens. Yep, it takes someone really grasping to buy into such a god.
  
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  HeadlyvonNogginposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The scenario playing out is not for God's benefit. It's not for God to see what happens. It's so we can see what happens. So we can gain wisdom through experience. The wisdom gained from the entirety of human history playing out would be the kind of wisdom required to wield something as powerful and capable of destruction as free will.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Let me guess, your god told you this personally, right? You wouldn't happen to be a Baptist, would you? If not, you'd make a good one with your ability to speak for god like you do. Perhaps you need to write your own book to be placed into the old novel since you are so aware of your god's plan for mankind. Did you learn this in church or at seminary?
  
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  HeadlyvonNogginposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I didn't learn this from anyone. And I don't go to church. I don't agree with any denomination specifically for the same reason you feel they don't have anything significant to offer. They all disagree and most think they're the one and only right one.
  
  I simply did what makes the most sense to me. Living in this age we have incredible access to an ever-growing pool of information. Scientifically gathered evidence and established facts give us incredibly detailed insight into the inner workings of the natural world as well as an accurate picture of history void of human influence or interpretation.
  
  So I just go back and re-evaluate what Genesis says, ignoring anything I've ever been told it says. Whatever churches or parents or anyone else have told me about this ancient text is human-made interpretation made by people that knew way less than we know now.
  
  In doing that I found that Genesis reads much more clearly and matches up exactly with actual events in history. The biggest realization comes from understanding Adam was not the first human on the planet. That's just an assumption made by people who had no reason to think otherwise. It's actually made pretty clear and actually proves to be a vital piece of the overall story. Understanding the world was already populated clears up all kinds of things throughout the rest of the bible that weren't nearly as clear before.
  
  Genesis is actually telling a very deliberate, very clear story that clears up a lot. That's where what I'm discussing comes from. I have never spoken to a glowing specter, talking donkey, or burning bush. This is an honest evaluation of the 'book of nature' and the 'book of scripture', using both to learn God's nature by understanding better how He works.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yea we know, I've heard this before. But you still need to understand how free will works and how if you believe God is all knowing then you can't also believe we have free will. They don't go together. One of them has to give. Pick one.
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  HeadlyvonNogginposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You're getting too hung up on the philosophical debate between hard and soft theological determinism. There are plenty of people much smarter than myself who have debated that topic for centuries. Whether or not the freedom of our wills is absolute based on God's omnipotence doesn't matter in this case as the key here is the fact that we as humans truly have our own minds and wills apart from God's and that we, not having foreknowledge of the future, make decisions and pursue dreams and desires of our own making.
  
  Clearly, according to the interactions between God and humans as described in the books of the bible, humans often did not behave in the way God commanded. His knowledge of past/present/future did not in any way change the fact that humans behaved of their own volition. There would be no point in judgement, no point in commandments, no need for grace, if that were not the case.
  
  God is described as the creator of the universe, which includes space and time. Therefore He exists outside of the dimensions of time and space. It's addressed specifically that God's perception of time and our own is vastly different. That the time that spans between two points, whether 24 hours or 1000 years apart from our perspective, are the same from God's perspective. Outside of time and space, the farthest expanses in either are a single point so that He exists in every moment everywhere exactly the same, unchanged and unaffected by either. We are not outside of it, and we are the ones willfully choosing our own actions.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Interesting speculation, but it is merely that.
  
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I truly would like to meet you some day. I do believe you are a kind and generous person. A little misguided, but that is okay. Chris would also be fun, but Randy and Cagsil and a few others would equally be a blast.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Agreeing to disagree is difficult for some to accept, Rad Man. Like you, I hold no hard feelings against most of those who espouse religion on these threads. But there are a few I've simply asked to not address me because of their venomous--Yes I know, the snake thing--replies when questioned about their statements.
  
  Having been reared in the very buckle of the Bible Belt, I've pretty much heard it all. Having grown immune to the "holier-than-thou" attitude expressed by so many of these local folks, I seldom get riled and normally are amused by the opinions expressed here.
  
  Yep, a beer or 3 between folks often makes a big difference in communication!
  
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Correct, some are, I would not dare to meet some and some down right scare me. Some are taught to hate us more than any other, but there are some that are like us, but just think a little different. I sometimes like to grease the wheels because many of these people have guns (lol not so much lol). I am surrounded by people like that and I rarely reveal what I think so as not to cause conflict. You can usually tell how has a sense of humour or not from there writings. Nice people are nice people. I'm married to one. Lucky me.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm burned out on taking guff from christians as I've done for too many years. As a child you dared not speak out against Jesus or anything to do with the southern Baptist beliefs. But I don't have to do this anymore as education has reached many fellow southerners now and the power of the fundamentalists is fleeting,
  
  But there are still lots of judgmental people in the world today, despite those who strive to quell their delusion. The fight goes on.
  
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  HeadlyvonNogginposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I appreciate that, Rad Man. And I appreciate the civil discussion we've been able to have in general. Having the rather unique view that I do, I'm often at odds with both believers and non-believers. On any given day it's not strange to be called stupid/ignorant/delusional in one discussion and then called a heretic endangering his own soul in another because I dare question traditional views and logic.
  
  I enjoy talking to anyone who does their own thinking and reaches their own logical conclusions, especially when they differ from my own. I often times find myself more at odds with believers than non-believers simply because believers will often defend ideas and beliefs to death that they did not arrive at on their own, but rather take on blind faith what others have told them. Trying to defend beliefs without understanding what those beliefs are based on or the logic behind them just makes you sound irrational and out of touch.
  
  There are quite a few here I'd like to meet if ever given the opportunity, and you are definitely on that list.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Wow! I feel better knowing this is your own persona belief and that there aren't many more of the same beliefs out there. But how did you come to discover there was any truth at all in the old novel? Surely you didn't merely pick it up and say, "Hey, this is true stuff in this old book" didja?
  
  And sorry it's still an old myth book, no matter how one interprets it. There is no one to vouch for its veracity at all. They all died centuries ago if there ever were such folks.
  
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  HeadlyvonNogginposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Except that it manages to correctly describe events in the same order in which they happened over the course of billions of years that we've only known about for a short time in the first chapter.
  
  Then it describes events that line up with the building of the first city (Cain's city/Gen 4), the Sumerian city of Eridu.
  
  A flood that happened the same number of centuries after Eridu as genesis specifies in the Sumerian city of Ur that stopped the Ubaid culture there in its tracks.
  
  Then a mass dispersion of the humans that populated southern Mesopotamia caused by a dramatic climatological change in the region (5.9 kiloyear event) the same number of years after the flood as what's described in Genesis in the tower of Babel story.
  
  We still have no idea how old the stories in the books of Moses are or who wrote them. We just know they originate in the same time and place as the dawn of civilization. Determining whether or not they hold any value based on incomplete information seems a bit premature. We just assume all these ancient writings in that region were nothing more than myth. Just made up as a way to explain what they didn't understand. I have good reason to believe that's not entirely true.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  See, you get it. Why can't he. It's not that hard, I understood the concept of Free Will in elementary school.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  He's perhaps a Baptist. They are the hardest cult to actually break the trance from because of their indoctrination from an early age. Texas, like my state of Georgia, is teeming with folks of this mindset. It's almost impossible to have a realistic conversation about religion with a lifelong member of this cult.
  
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The answer is... (drum roll, please!) because you need to do the prayer.
  
  If you just expect that whatever's going to happen will happen because God does it that way, then you can't be surprised on Judgement Day when He says, "I told you this would happen. Why didn't you believe me?"
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not the one doing the "expecting", Chris. That would be you. Any such god who requires such redundancy would not be something to admire, nor worship. Even us lowly mortals would not design such a useless scenario of creation if we already knew the results long beforehand. Are you suggesting your god is bored?
  
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I've been reading a lot of posts lately, and I forget what I was responding to. Or who. So I'm not sure how to respond to this one.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Maybe He will and maybe He won't, I'm not sure that the collision has anything to do with history as laid out in the Bible.
  
  I'm a little late to this, but I agree with Headly. Actually, I'm not alone. Although C.S. Lewis probably explained it the best, but that was the way he explained it, that God exists at all times in all places, therefor He knows what the future will be because He is there at the same time as He is here. Omnipresence.
  
  In my own mind I still struggle with free will v. predestination. It's difficult to argue definitively once and for all on either side, but I tend to believe in free will because if we cannot choose to deny/disbelieve/despise God (I'm just lumping choices in, I'm not accusing any one person of despising God,)then we cannot love God. And I don't think it actually contradicts, because God can give us the ability to choose and still know what is going to happen.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So what is the point of anything if your god already knows the results? It's not as if he were going to learn anything new, is it? This is why it's so difficult to believe there is some supernatural creature running everything, Chris.
  
  According to you, god gave us our abilities to learn and discern in our time on this earth. Ignoring one's own common sense and plain facts is not possible for some of us like it is for others. This puts a greater burden on those of us who have looked for a god almost everywhere. But the only evidence we can find is merely hearsay from an old book of myths or from those who can apparently deny proven scientific facts with no problem doing so.
  
  Is this god's idea of a joke?
  
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  HeadlyvonNogginposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The point is not for God to see what happens, but for us to see what happens. Obviously this is speculation on my part, but I see it like this. If all humans are spiritually inter-connected, then in the afterlife each and every human will have the entirety of human history to draw from. We'll each be able to see, know, and understand each and every life and each choice made as if it were our own. If humans are to be eternal and wield something as powerful as free will, then the entirety of human history would serve well as the kind of knowledge base of wisdom that one would need to do so. A detailed look at what not to do and why. This would give every single life, no matter how long/short or tragic/heroic, purpose.
  
  Personally, I think those that honestly search for truth will be much better off than those that speak in His name and misrepresent Him. It even says specifically, though I can't recall where at the moment, that God judges righteously based on what you know. That those that knowingly break a law are held more accountable than those who broke the same law unaware. It even goes on to say that those that study the word are held more accountable because they know more, and that those that teach the word even more than that as they are also responsible for those they taught.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Perhaps your speculations have some merit, but what makes you think there is an afterlife other than the bible says so? Would you still think this was the case if someone hadn't suggested it to you?
  
  I just find taking the word of unknown barely educated authors somewhat difficult to swallow. Especially when these same writers also believed the entire earth could be completely covered with water.
  
  You wouldn't trust a complete stranger to babysit your children, but you are willing to trust your soul to the words of someone you never met? Someone who lived back when education was practically nonexistent and got the message from someone else?
  
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  HeadlyvonNogginposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well, that's the big question. There's a reason it's faith-based. It's an internal/spiritual thing. It's like the parable Jesus told about the behavior of the servants while the master is away. Children act much differently when they're alone than when a parent-figure is in the room. If God were a large, looming figure in the sky, like the eye of Sauron watching over everyone, then people would behave much differently. But if people can't know for sure He's even there, or doubt he's there at all, then they're going to show their true colors. Much of human history didn't even have access to the bible or to churches in general. What they did know was often conveyed to them by others who had flawed interpretations themselves.
  
  My faith has been rewarded more times than I can count. In ways that are easily dismissed by anyone who has not lived my life. And that's just as it should be. After all, it's not behavior so much that determines whether or not you participate in the next life. It's just belief. It's said many times that no one will make it based on behavior. Belief in itself is more about an acknowledgement of an authority beyond ourselves. Humility through acknowledging that there is something bigger and more important than us, and that none of us are worthy of being the one true authority. That we're all ultimately flawed and incapable.
  
  Even in this life we see that authority and leadership are required in nearly every endeavor that involves numerous individuals. Collaborative efforts, militaries, governments, that's how we work best. But there is no single person the entire world agrees should be the sole authority. And as long as there are differing authorities there will always be turmoil. Ultimately we will need one single worthy authority that we all acknowledge for each of us to truly be free-willed beings. Like all the cells in an organism conforming to the authority of the DNA code so that the organism can live.
  
  The bible is guidance for those who already believe, not so much to serve as proof to convince someone. On a side note, the bible doesn't say the flood was global. In fact, there are specific people, like the Nephilim (gen 6/num 13), that it specifically says existed before and after the flood who were not on the ark. The flood happened just 10 generations after Adam, so there would be no need to flood the entire planet. The Mesopotamian valley was the whole world to those people at that time. It's modern assumption that says the flood was truly global. The original authors had no idea what 'global' even was.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So why didn't Noah simply move to where the flood didn't affect him at all? And if the flood was only local, then what was the point of building a huge ark to save animals which weren't in danger of extinction.
  
  And if it was only local, then why did Moses lie about the death of the world's population of humans and animals? Did god tell Moses the story as claimed, or did Moses make it all up?
  
  You see, one either has to believe the bible in its entirety or admit it is merely old goat herder myths. Picking and choosing is not acceptable if you expect your god to exist at all.
  
  The flood story is copied from Gilgamesh as we well know. and because this tale was stolen and used in the old novel it indicates the rest of the book is probably fake too. Why would your god have to use a previous tale in HIS book? You'd figure he would be more original than that.
  
  Edit: You didn't address the free will aspect of your child being threatened with bodily harm and you having to make the choice under certain conditions.
  
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  HeadlyvonNogginposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It's not picking and choosing. It's knowing the material as best as is possible.
  
  Don't get me wrong, it was definitely a devastating flood. I don't think anyone doubts there was most likely a large devastating flood in that region because, as you said, not only is it written about in the bible, but in Sumerian mythology and the Sumerian King's list as well. Though information is limited because it's situated in modern-day Iraq, we do know there were numerous floods in that region between 4000 and 2000 BC. One in particular, around 4000 BC, that stopped the Ubaid culture of the Sumerian city of Ur dead for and extended period of time.
  
  Both the Sumerian and biblical versions are similar in many ways. Both claim there were people who lived much longer lives before the great flood, and that lifespans gradually decreased after. Both speak of a flood hero who built a boat and brought others and pairs of animals on board.
  
  The assumption that the biblical account is copied from the Sumerians is based on our best guess as to the age of the books of Moses. The problem is that Israelite written history was destroyed in 450 BC when they were taken into exile. Much of what we know today as the old testament was re-written from memory while in Exile to retain their history. Our approximations of age are based on how the language was used, titles used, that sort of thing. For example, the statement that Abraham was from Ur of the Chaldeans, though the Chaldeans didn't settle the site of the Sumerian city of Ur until around 950 BC, way later than when Abraham was to have lived. Or referring to the Egyptian king as a pharaoh, though this predated the first Egyptian dynasty. It's highly likely that the stories themselves are much older and that the oldest version we have was updated for contemporary readers at the time from much older texts or oral stories.
  
  Realizing Adam wasn't the first human ever, but was actually created in a populated world, clears this up. The Sumerians were the population in the background of pre-flood Genesis. The others that Cain feared would harm him in Genesis 4. The mortal 'daughters of humans' who only lived 120 years that Genesis 6 says the 'sons of God' began having children with. Their stories are talking about the same things. They spoke of immortal gods, human in form, who walked the earth, male and female, who were moody and unpredictable. These very same gods taught the Sumerians civilization according to the Sumerians. Genesis 4 says Cain built a city. The Sumerians built the first city to ever exist, Eridu. They claim this city was established by the gods and this is where the 'gifts of civilization' were handed down to them.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You're absolutely right, God isn't going to learn anything new. But we will. We have the ability to choose which way to go, which is why, even though God knows what will happen, we are still responsible for the choices we make.
  
  Thanks, Randy! Seriously, I already knew how you feel about that. Belief in God is not the same as ignoring plain facts.
  
  Honestly, I'm not sure what to tell you. Some people look for God, and never "find" Him. Some people don't look for God, and He reaches out and taps them. I can't explain that. If I were God, I certainly would not have tapped me. And in all the time I've been trying to talk to people about Jesus, I often think that the only person whose eyes have been at all opened are my own, to what I believe and why, but also to all my shortcomings as a teacher and a debater. I used to be pretty argumentative, and I try not to be like that any more, but it's not always easy.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It's a very big contradiction. It matters not how a God would perceive time. Notice that we have to keep giving God bigger and bigger abilities so he can fit in the mold provided.
  
  If he knows the future then he knows every decision that every creature makes and he would have to know what every atom in the universe is doing and make all the necessary calculations to know the future. If you are saying he is already in the future then the future is set in stone and predetermined as well. If we have free will the he doesn't know what decisions we will make and does not know the future.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well, of course I disagree. Either He is God or He is Zeus. Your explanation presupposes Him to be more like Zeus, a human being with a lot more power.
  
  He does know every atom.
  
  I explained it as being more like a parent watching their child about to make a decision. The parent can know exactly what's going to happen and even warn the kid, but the kid still has the free will to choose.
  
  It's not a contradiction. God can know what the future holds, but we still make our own choices. And therefor we are still responsible for what those choices are. If your theory is true, then why bother? Whatever happens, happens. No one is responsible and no one is to blame.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Interesting that you think I don't believe in freewill. I do, and because we have free will the future is not curtain. Why would a loving God create all this if the instant he thought of the creation he was aware of the ending. He knew of 9/11 and the dropping of Atomic bombs on the Japanese people. If he knew those decisions would be made than the decisions were already made for us.
  
  I once watch my oldest son decide to dive off the high diving board at the local pool. Someone talked him into it even though he had never dived off the lower diving board. I knew it was going to happen from his body language seconds before he fell belly first. There was just nothing I could do, I was too far away. If I woke that day with that knowledge, I would have warned him. That being said knowing a child will fall because of the actions is not the same as knowing all future events.
  
  If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice.
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  HeadlyvonNogginposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  See, this is a good example of what I don't get about this logic. In your story about your son, you would take that experience from him if you could? Make sure it didn't happen? Is that not the kind of experience that makes us who we are? The peer pressure that led to the decision, the doing so for whatever reasons he had that caused him to overcome any fears, the pain itself?
  
  I understand that nobody wants to see the ones they love in pain, but that pain gives you perspective. Pleasure is more pleasurable once you've experienced pain. Lesser pains don't send you to the ground writhing because you've had worse. You know when times are good because you've experienced times that are bad. Good times have more meaning because they're not all the time. Just like death gives life purpose and urgency and makes it something to cherish, so does pain and hardship for those things on the other side of the spectrum.
  
  Are parents mean if they let their kids make mistakes so they can learn from them? Have you ever seen how kids turn out when they're over-protected and sheltered? Personally I wouldn't trade any of the painful experiences in my life. So then why is God considered so cruel when He lets these things happen? Do we really want Him to protect us from everything? Do we really want that kind of life? No risk, no pain, no rewarding feeling of pride when we beat opposition and overcome obstacles because there was never really any danger?
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You're right, as soon as the surgeons put his intestines back into his body he was good as gold. Except for the 4 months in hospital and the foot long scare. Lesson well taught. No pain to gain.
  
  That's not what the conversation was about anyway.
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  HeadlyvonNogginposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But that is what this conversation is about. Before you said ....
  
  "Why would a loving God create all this if the instant he thought of the creation he was aware of the ending. He knew of 9/11 and the dropping of Atomic bombs on the Japanese people. If he knew those decisions would be made than the decisions were already made for us."
  
  Every parent who knowingly/purposefully conceives a child does the exact same thing. You may not know the particulars of their future, but you do know their future will inevitably include hard times, pain, suffering, and eventually death. Every parent brings a child into a world where they know there is disease and cancer and guns and bombs and mean people doing mean things. How is that any different?
  
  If you knew ahead of time that your child would go through such a painful, traumatic experience, would you choose to not have him to spare him that experience?
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  DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I know this wasn't directed at me, But I have a thought on this matter...
  
  If I had the power to completely remove all of those things (As God does) then I would...As it stands now, I don't have that power. So while I know these things happen to our children, I can only offer my best "Knowledge" for avoiding or reducing these afflictions. (with the exception of death of course)
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  HeadlyvonNogginposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What about in your own life? Would your remove every hardship you ever endured or every painful experience you ever had? Did those experiences not build your character and give you an appreciation for the good things you have? An appreciation that may not have been there otherwise? Just think about how different your life would be, how different you would be, if you were able to go back and edit out whatever hard/bad times you've experienced.
  
  I don't know about you, but in my life the most defining moments were the ones that were either the most painful, or were those moments where significant pain or loss was eminent yet avoided or overcome.
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  DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't view things like others...
  
  Life happens...And how we handle life is what makes us who we are...Sadly, most people tend to run from things that are considered negative...
  
  If something "painful" happens to us and we improve because of that "pain" was that a bad or evil thing? Or was it just an event in life that we learned from that allowed us to improve who we are?
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  HeadlyvonNogginposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I agree completely. Death and pain and suffering and hardship are what make life what it is. If life had no teeth then nothing would be worth anything. If everything were easy then life would be boring and pointless as we wouldn't have the experiences that give us an appreciation for when times are good.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No, unfortunately we hear often about religious people killing their children to spare them from doing evil as to not get into heaven.
  
  I would talk to the child the day they about to make a mistake. Don't try to dive off the high diving board before you try it a few times off the low diving board. Then they learn in a save environment. Correct?
  
  The diving board is a true story except the part about the surgery. He only had a very red belly for a week. Sorry, I couldn't help myself.
  
  The Free Will Paradox IS interesting.
  
  If said God travels time. When he comes back form the future he knows the future and knows what choices we will make, but if we truly have free will we for some reason could choice another path, in which case God doesn't know the future he would only have knowledge of a possible future. You see if we are truly free that God could not no what choices we will make and that would impair his perfection.
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  HeadlyvonNogginposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, if given the opportunity you try to warn or prepare your children so that they can avoid pain or suffering where possible. Most times those things you see coming that they do no are because you had experiences yourself that prepared you. But as I'm sure any parent can attest, even when you do have that opportunity it doesn't always side-step the pain. Sometimes they do it anyway, and sometimes taking your advise just leads to some other experience that wouldn't have happened if they didn't.
  
  My wife and I have had numerous scares throughout our 10 years together. She has had some serious medical issues over the past 5 years now that have completely changed us. She had a blood clot in her leg that nearly killed her. Then she stopped taking birth control to lower the chance of future clots because we also found out she's genetically prone to clotting. That will never change. I believe it was the abrupt stopping of hormones that led to everything else, because next she had an 8.5 pound tumor the size of a watermelon form on one of her ovaries. That took a 13 inch incision right down the middle of her belly to remove. Plus lovanox shots for the clotting, twice a day, administered by me, in the stomach.
  
  Since then it's been issues of severe dehydration, constant nausea, and on and on and on. Next, she has a surgery scheduled the week after next to remove her other ovary and uterus because there's now a tumor growing on the other one. Because she can't take hormones this means she'll be going into menopause.
  
  While I'd give anything for her to not have to go through all of that, or to take her place so that I can go through it instead of her, we both still cherish it all because those experiences have brought us closer than we ever were before and have given us an appreciation of every single simple moment we have together.
  
  As for God the time-traveler, you're still thinking of it as if God is here or there. He exists in every moment. Past/present/future to us simply IS to Him. It's not like our decisions can throw Him off. Time to Him isn't a line from past to present. There's no difference between the two. It's not that He knows our actions ahead of time, it's just that there is no 'ahead of time' for Him.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry about the hardships to you and your wife. We all have stories, if we don't yet we will.
  
  I enjoy how you pretend to know exactly what it's like for God to travel time. Changing the perception of God to make sure he fits in with our knowledge. Your knowledge of God is only speculation, but you talk as though it's fact. Most simply put the "I think" or "I believe" in front of a statement, but not you.
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  HeadlyvonNogginposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I appreciate it. And you are definitely right, nobody gets out of this life unscathed.... by design!!
  
  I'm not changing anything or making anything up. It's physics. Like Einstein said, "Time is an illusion". This is a concept that only in the past century or so can we grasp, yet authors of the bible addressed it two thousand years before Einstein was born.
  
  We humans all inhabit the same planet moving at the same rate of speed occupying the same approximate space, so time to us seems set. Constant. Because we all experience it the same. However, if you had two people, one who stayed here on this planet and the other who traveled near or at the speed of light, if the two were to meet back up, the one person who stayed here would have experienced days/weeks/years where the other merely minutes or hours.
  
  How else do you interpret 'a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years are like a day'? This is the same as saying '1 day = 1000 years'. So, I can't take credit for that one.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  'a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years are like a day' does not mean that said God would see the future. It just mean his perception of time is different then ours. Are you going to tell me the bible say that time is an illusion? Are you going to tell me the bible explains the general theory of relativity?
  
  I understand the speed of light and how it relates to time (or at least some of it, very few can comprehend all that Einstein described). What I do know is you can never get to the future in that you would only get to your present which is not the future as described by a time machine. Your not really traveling to the future, time is just slowed down for one traveling at the speed of light. If however you had a way back you could predict the future and all choices would be preordained even though you perceived you were making your own choices. If you then altered the past you no longer saw the future.
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