Romans 7:10: "I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death"
Which commandment is being referred to?
All the Law (commandments, not just one) He is just saying there was no way to measure sin until the law came.
The Law defines and reveals sin, showing men to be sinners, under divine condemnation and in need of a righteousness not their own.
The Law reveals the character of God to men
14 For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For that which I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not wish to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that it is good.
I agree with the fact that the law defines and reveals sin, and I have had this response from the theologians I have discussed this with at my Church.
Grace and peace sister,
As a scholar and religious historian, let me try to enlighten you with some factual knowledge concerning your question.
The letter to the romans deals with the acquaintance with "Sin." Sin here is a noun. A person, place or thing. And Paul is struggling w/ its acquaintance/association through the law. As if the law, is now the reason for sin. How are they intertwine. You following me? Does that help?
Here's another reference,
Chapter 7 in particular is concerned with Paul's reflection on the fact that Christians(back then-all related to the past) have a different understanding of the law, or rather the principles of the Jewish religion itself, because of their(gentiles) faith in Christ. You've got to understand here, that gentiles were usually pagans. And......, many aspects of the Jewish faith was of course and naturally were automatically incorporated into the new "Christian" faith.
However, People of this new faith (Christianity), didn't have a clue on how to be a good religious follower of Christ. They had no idea how to practice Judiasm, and the argument of that time, was do they become Jewish like Christ at all. Paul clearly says no, and in so doing, he finds himself caught in a struggle of interpreting Jewish laws/or rather policies himself. Like for instance, laws pertaining to the sabbath, or policies and practices concerning burial.It is a huge undertaking for Paul.
Chapter 7 in reference 7-12, and 7-25 Paul the apostle is actually defending himself here. See Paul's conculsion in regards to whether or not having laws or incorporating policy causes trouble. Better yet, trouble is referenced here as "Sin." An intangible thing. The noun I mentioned earlier.
His actual conclusion, as written to his following in Rome, basically says that he feels that Sin does not exist in law; but in human being themselves, whose sinful inclinations are not overcome by the proclamations of law. Speaking of course of the particulars of the Jewish faith.
I hope this helps.
This has nothing to do with Adultery, or the commandements themselves only. It has to do with the conversion of non-jewish people to possible Jewish Christianism. Understand this here, this is not my interpretation but rather fact. If you want to know more about the letter to the romans, Google it. How? Google the Roman historian Suetonius. Suetonius mentions an edict of the Emperor Claudius sometime around Christ's death, which actually pinpoints that death at 49ad. The edict involves the relationship of between the Jews of Rome, and the Jewish-Christians of Rome. It cited the actual expulsion of Jews connected with a certain "Chrestus." Which involves an actual factual real live dispute in the Jewish community over "Jesus as the Messiah(Christus). Paul learned about this conflict when Aquila and Priscilla(Rom 16, 3) were among those driven out of Corinth a Roman territory. Reference to this can be found in Acts 18 verse 2.
I afraid Sandra Rinck and Deborah Sexton have it wrong. Fortunately, YOU actually picked a chapter and verse with great historical documented history. They clearly should have known their history, before babbling on a subject they clearly don't know.
History folks, it is important to understand the event and times the books of the bible were written in. It is the difference between truly knowing something, or just passing gas.
I can't wait to see how this is treated. I expect it will be ignored because it is reasonable, rational and based in research (I'm not even passing judgment on whether the research is good or not), so, that doesn't bode well for it, nor does its length. But enjoyed it and how you presented it. Anything that reads like a well thought out and studied response gets my ignorant vote over absurd abstractions.
Yeah, it is rather lengthy. I normally do not write such long threads.
But when I saw hubbers saying it is about women. It is about Adultery, It is about the commandments, I thought to myself, "Oh God here we go again."
Fortunately as I wrote earlier, at least the original poster picked the Letter to the Romans, or Romans. Because it is so well documented because of Emperor Claudius order against the Christians. You know- he is the Emperor who hate Christians the most, and rounded them up for the games in the Coliseum. Then again Shades, after seeing some of these answers, I don't think too many hubbers realize that either. Anyhow, thanks to you and 21 for taking the time to read the lengthy thing.
One more thing before I go, if anyone wants to understand what is going on in Romans, Corinthians, Philippians is best to keep referencing back to Acts. That is why it is placed before those chapters. Acts establishes the historical references and dates. Without knowing that, it is how to figure out what Paul is talking about or doing for that matter. So it is important to keep referencing back and forth between Acts and one of the others, it helps in the understanding of the text.
Nite all, big test tomorrow, so it is bedtime for me.
Shades and 21, law here is referenced as a Jewish policy, or way of life.
It is not as you both think it is. It is literally the cause and action of the Gentile and apostle Paul trying to hash out why a Roman emperor issued such a edict as I mention here above.
My..........., I think if Paul knew what impact his letters would have, I think he would have been more careful and would have included the facts he was referring to. The letter to the romans, is not a theological study. It is a response to an event in Corinth.
IE, I'm with you. You might be reading some of my posts too literally.
Again, S/Pauls often urgent letter writing confirms a great mass of turmoil among his 'comrades', the Hebrew leaders. The divisions even up to the Jerusalem Conference were boiling up. I give him much credit for attempting to cool the heat and keep Rome of his back...
I agree that these 'new folk' did not know what to do and even the Jews who know the old law did not know what to do with themselves or these 'new folk'. Hence the massive uprising.
but for himself, the struggle seemed an internal conflict expressed by an external presentation of sin/law and how-to show palatable grace to these new folk and confused Jews.
Exactly. Most people and the "church" in general don't seem to recognize the fact that these were letters addressing specific problems or issues that specific locales or branches of the church were having, and applied to those specific sorts of situations; not to be utilized as generalizations to all, but to be applied only when the situation warranted it. We were freed from law by Christ, so these were written as guidelines for specific situations.
For instance, some churches use quotes from Paul and Timothy to validate doctrines that discriminate against women in the church and don't allow them full participation in leadership roles. They also use it as an excuse to try to force subjugate from women in the church, without realizing that there is a difference between the words "should" and "must," as well as the fact that submission comes by and through grace only, and is not real if it is mandated.
don't you just love homework? good job IE.
I am a peaceful, grace filled Gnostic Zealot-Heretic HubPages Jihadist
Thanks IntimatEvolution, that answer was really helpful. The context you presented have allowed me to make greater sense of Paul's letter to the Romans as a whole. i will come back a few times to revise it and take all the key elements from it.
Grace and peace brother,
That would be sister. Duh........ I'm curious, do I look like a freaking guy to you?
You know my real face is profiled in one of hubs. But........,________.
Did Deborah Sexton put you up to this, because she swears I'm RKHenry. Who is actually a real guy and not a girl, like me. Who is a girl.
Don't get me involved in your fantasies.
Analysis of this post
Yeah, it is rather lengthy. I normally do not write such long threads. But when I saw hubbers saying it is about women. It is about Adultery, It is about the commandments, I thought to myself, "Oh God here we go again." Fortunately as I wrote earlier, at least the original poster picked the Letter to the Romans, or Romans. Because it is so well documented because of Emperor Claudius order against the Christians. You know- he is the Emperor who hate Christians the most, and rounded them up for the games in the Coliseum. Then again Shades, after seeing some of these answers, I don't think too many hubbers realize that either. Anyhow, thanks to you and 21 for taking the time to read the lengthy thing. One more thing before I go, if anyone wants to understand what is going on in Romans, Corinthians, Philippians is best to keep referencing back to Acts. That is why it is placed before those chapters. Acts establishes the historical references and dates. Without knowing that, it is how to figure out what Paul is talking about or doing for that matter. So it is important to keep referencing back and forth between Acts and one of the others, it helps in the understanding of the text. Nite all, big test tomorrow, so it is bedtime for me.
Female Score: 154
Male Score: 461
The Program thinks the author of this passage is: male!
Analysis of two posts
It is in a book I own called, "Awaken the Buddha Within." Great book by the way. Sorry I'm eating lunch, so I'm a little sporadic getting back and responding. Thanks for asking. You know if you are interested in another great website on Buddhism, Google Lama Surya Das. He is a fantastic Buddhist Lama. I love his teaching style. He was raised Jewish and when he went off to find himself during College, he stumbled into Buddhism in Tibet. Very interesting man, ceciliabeltran. I think from what I've read of yours, you'd like his line of thinking.
You bring up a very interesting point here 21, and that is concerning the "spirit-body or body-spirit is connected by the mind."
If you so chose, you might be interested in The Gospel of Mary Mag. The entire Gospel is one of such message. Apparently, from what I am understanding, Jesus tells Mary that the true way to heaven or to the "heavenly realm" is through the knowledge of enlightenment.
Like Albert Einstein stated,"arising from the experience of all things natural and spiritual as a meaningful unity." There is a union between our spirit body and our minds. Most of us however, get lost in the great divide of translations and theology. Why Christians choose to ignore this message, and dismiss it as the "devils work" truly floors me.
Personally I think Albert was right on the money. Have a good day all, I'm off to study. Be well.
Female Score: 179
Male Score: 355
The Program thinks the author of this passage is: male!
Whatever. I'm done with you. My shemale companion.
You are nothing, and you are definitely not who you claim to be.
How you can live with that, well sickens the integrity of the field in which you claim to work in.
How many people have died in your care? A lot I imagine.... just look at your level of intelligence here. You are not capable of pulling ticks off my cat Winston's arse, much less call your a nurse. Please...
Please give me the link to find the stuff I have stolen and claimed as mind...If you can't produce that link...then I will report you for slander to hubpages. You speak of me but you are calling me the things you see in yourself.
I doubt you even went to college, much less have a degree in anything. I don't believe you. You accused me once of being jealous of you. Could you please show me what there is for me to be jealous of..
Please upload your credentials..
Please upload your "mother's" Eulogy....
Everything I said about you is true. You know it. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Why? Because you fit the perfect text book definition of the "charming" characteristics traits listed.
There is vol. of proof to your lying, imposing, faking, hypocritical rantings, and plagiarism. Ask Mark Knowles, he tried to warn you about your copy and paste habit, long ago.
But as for calling me an idiot. Well.........., let us do see about that. At least I knew what the Letters to the Romans was about, and YOU......, well you just listed a worthless thread about "commandments."
Please, whose the idiot here?
Oh I told you tooooooooooo.........
Shall i give you my home address?
Whatever you do, comes back to you 10x folds. Oh wait, thats not part of my religion. Oh wait, I'm not a self proclaimed ordain minister.
Oh wait, my mother is live and well.
I won't be worrying about you idle threats. But the FBI will.
Thanks for playing Deb Sexton. Its been swell.
And............., what was that, you rattling garbage from your mouth, pretending to know the real answers. The commandments????????
This coming from a so call priest of a mythical Jewish religion. Well at least I have a degree in it. You just have what you read on a bathroom wall stall.
Fake, Liar, Plagiarist and Hypocrite. Now lets add imposer to that long list of your redeeming qualities.
Whether we follow any commandments or not, we are, all, going to die. Life brings death.
The one about shell-fish. Tasty, but off season, quite deadly.
7:10,11 bring life: Since the law points out the path of rightousness, it points to life. but since sin reigns in our natures, the law means judgment and death for us. when we focus on the law we are decived into sinning, which " kills " our siritual lives.
7:12 The conclusion is that the law as a whole and the individual commandments are holy. our problem with sin is not the fault of the holy law of God, but of how our sinful nature responds to the law. (see vv.8,11, 13)
The scripture simply means that the old law through Moses was perfect that no one could perfectly carry it out which could lead to death. But Jesus upgraded it that people no longer lived up under a law that was perfect and impossible to carry out . Which was just a tutor of something better to come. Jesus! He is lamb who took sin away ,not by animal sacrefice any more. He has covered generations of people until now!
Now our greatest command is to love the Heavenly Father with all our heart soul and mind. The second is to love our nieghbor as we love ourself.
Reference Bible Mt 22:37 He said to him: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’
Reference Bible Mt 22:38 This is the greatest and first commandment.
Reference Bible Mt 22:39 The second, like it, is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’
These both are the greatest commandments of all time.
"There was no way for any of Adam’s descendants to make themselves righteous, not even by trying to keep the Mosaic Law. As the apostle Paul put it: “The commandment which was to life, this I found to be to death.” (Ro 7:10) The inability of humans to keep the Law perfectly showed that they were slaves to sin and deserving of death, not life."
Read also 7:14
For we know the law is spiritual but I am carnal sold under sin.
Any commandment over-done, or practiced with eroneous comprehension or misinterpretation? Like drinking water is good but drinking too much can be fatal.
This particular commandment she is asking about is making an analogy of how a woman becomes free from her husbands law and how if while her husband is alive and they divorce and she marries another man, she is considered an adulteress.
However, if her husband dies and she remarries she is free from her husbands law, referring to how Christ died so that man could be free from the Levitican law.
All commandments is law and leads to death.
The commandments that men call the old commandments and the new commandments they make for themselves even those taken from the new testament in the bible.
Anything less than faith is sin and is death.
If you are not sure what I mean that means death still reigns over you.
That's Paul's rubbish, and apparently yours too
If you shoot the statement down then prove your point. Because that would make your statement rubbish with out proof.
To Kess at first I had to get my glasses because I thought you was me until I read further , I said I did not write this then that is when I got my glasses lol! I was missing the e in your name. But you are correct that's true about the law. But notice a difference here . The old law was just between the Jews and God, but the New law improved was for all humans .that cover generations of people even now. Faith is very important . It does play a vital part in our salvation into the New world.
But notice that will not be required at the resurrection hope of those that will come back. They will get a second chance based on new scrolls
Reference Bible Re 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds.
That simply means when they died their sins were forgiven for the wages of sin is death.
Jesus also paid the tab for sinners as well, that means many will not taste death at all based on that Jesus tasted death for us.
But faith in what was done in our behalf is important because we exercise by action .
To examiner here is an answer to your question about the Bible what is a good translation. But with a little history or background.
Ask yourself: ‘What is my goal in reading the Bible? Do I want easy reading with less attention to accuracy? Or do I want to read thoughts that reflect the original inspired text as closely as possible?’ (2 Peter 1:20, 21) Your objective should determine your choice of translation.
The New World Translation aims for a literal rendering of the original-language text whenever such a rendering would not hide its meaning. The translators seek to make the Bible as understandable to readers today as the original text was to readers in Bible times.
The Bible is a compilation of 66 smaller books, the oldest of which were written or compiled over 3,000 years ago by members of the nation of Israel. The original writers and those who copied the texts recorded the inspired messages on perishable materials, such as papyrus and leather. None of the original writings have yet been discovered. But thousands of ancient copies of small and large sections of the books of the Bible have been unearthed. A fragment of one of these books, the Gospel of John, dates to within just a few decades of the original document written by the apostle John.
Centuries ago, the prophet Isaiah was inspired to say: “The green grass has dried up, the blossom has withered; but as for the word of our God, it will last to time indefinite.” (Isaiah 40:8) We can have the same confidence that the One who inspired the Holy Scriptures also preserved them through the ages so that “all sorts of men should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth.”—1 Timothy 2:4.
Evidence From John’s Gospel
A valuable fragment of John’s Gospel was found in Egypt at the turn of the 20th century and is now known as the Papyrus Rylands 457 (P52). It contains what is John 18:31-33, 37, 38 in the modern Bible and is preserved at the John Rylands Library, Manchester, England. This is the oldest manuscript fragment of the Christian Greek Scriptures in existence. Many scholars believe that it was written about 125 C.E., a mere quarter of a century or so after John’s death. The amazing thing is that the text of the fragment agrees nearly exactly with that in later manuscripts. The fact that a copy of John’s Gospel of such antiquity had already circulated to Egypt, where the fragment was discovered, supports the conclusion that the good news according to John was really recorded in the first century C.E. and by John himself, as the Bible indicates. The book of John is therefore the work of an eyewitness.
What about the assertion that the Biblical Gospels were altered in order to suppress certain accounts of Jesus’ life? Is there any evidence that the Gospel of John, for example, was altered in the fourth century to distort the facts? To answer this question, we need to bear in mind that one of the key sources of the modern Bible is the fourth-century manuscript known as Vatican 1209. If our Bible contains changes made in the fourth century, then these changes would be reflected in this manuscript. Happily, another manuscript that contains most of Luke and John, known as Bodmer 14, 15 (P75), dates from 175 C.E. to 225 C.E. According to experts, it is textually very close to Vatican 1209. In other words, no significant changes were made to the Biblical Gospels, and we have the Vatican 1209 to prove it.
What do all these facts show? That the Christian Greek Scriptures—including the four Gospels—as we have them today have remained largely unchanged from the second century onward. There is no strong reason to believe that there was a conspiracy in the fourth century to change or suppress any part of the divinely inspired Scriptures. On the contrary, Bible scholar Bruce Metzger wrote: “By the close of the second century, . . . a high degree of unanimity concerning the greater part of the New Testament was attained among the very diverse and scattered congregations of believers not only throughout the Mediterranean world but also over an area extending from Britain to Mesopotamia.”
So this helps us to see how preserved the writings are.
Mostly the basics of the bible is available to all
Today people prefer the King James Version .
But even King James has omitted God's personal name. Jehovah.( YHWH)
Found in over 7000 times in Hebrew an Greek text.
Even though he still show his name about four
times in his translation. One is at Psalms 83:18.
The English edition of the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, published by Jehovah’s Witnesses, was prepared directly from the original languages by an anonymous committee. This version, in turn, has been the primary text used for translations into about 60 other languages. Translators for those languages did, however, make extensive comparisons with the original-language text.
Bible Terms for God
The Hebrew text of the Holy Scriptures uses numerous terms for God, such as Almighty, Creator, Father, and Lord. Yet, the instances in which he is referred to by his personal name far outnumber all of the other terms combined. Clearly, it is God’s will that we use his name. Consider the following list of terms as they appear in the Hebrew Scriptures.*
Ancient of Days—3 times
Grand Instructor—2 times
You can view this copy of the bible that uses the original Hebrew text at jworg also down load it free of charge. In your own language.
I take it the "death" that still reigns over me sits in council with advisors like "reason" and "lucidity." I can therefore assume that this ruling force over me reigns in oposition to "life" which, by implication, still reigns over you. I can also assume that, if we follow the evidence to its inevitable conclusion, your monarch sits in council with his cronies, "ambiguity" and "abstraction."
He sits in judgment of righteousness.
So any still of the mind of sin and its parts has no part with Him or His judgments. You are not condemned by law if there is no law to condemn you...
Right. That clears everything up. Thanks.
Man, I can't believe the entire world isn't Christian with explanations like this to call them in.
um, shades, for the last time, I AM NOT a Christian!
Well, okay, insert whichever religion you like that depends upon vagueness to make points. It really makes no difference.
and even confessing the righteousness of the law, still are guilty of sin and punishable by death -in body first, then in spirit.
even more: by good works under the law -that is keeping those commands- one is still sinful.
Why was the law given then that any should follow it, if no one can be saved by it? So that man might realize that Life giving grace -which can only come through Him is greater than both the law and prophets. The reward of law is death -as Moses and all the prophets died. Yet grace took the sin, the law and the prophets, bound them in a cast of gold and sealed it forever, setting upon it the mercy seat then was taken up into heaven.
For the kings, the prophets, the law, the judges spoke of grace even after grace and before it came again.
Is that a fact? Don't count on it.
We fight not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers in high places.
You just had to post that picture didn't you...
But I guess God led you to do that right?
Here's the thing. No matter what anyone says or writes, you always have to try and one up them. It always starts a scene much like the photo.
It has nothing to do with being one up. It has to do with YOU being so overbearing. Nothing anyone says sits right with YOU and YOU have to make sure everyone knows it.
Why can't you just enjoy the conversation every once in a while?
Enjoy someone making fun of my mom because she is dead?
Why can't you just enjoy my conversation.
We fight not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers in high places.
Sometimes it just doesn't make sense to argue with materialist, who think that all of reality can be touched, smelled, tasted, seen or heard. To them spirituality is nothing and truth is just an ideal. Please remind them that idealism is also nothing as well because it cannot be seen or touched. To the non-believer, concepts such as truth, righteousness and even love are conceived in the imagination of mankind.
However, to Christians, Chapter 7 is one of the most important spiritual truths of the whole Bible. For believers, we are only alive in Christ!
The spiritul truth that Paul is speaking about begins with the first sentence of the paragraph. The first sentence is usually the subject of most paragraphs and the first paragraph usually outlines the chapter. "Do you not know, bretheren - for I am speaking to those who know the law - that the law is binding on a person only during his life?"
Materialist usually don't believe there's a life after death, so it's a little hard to argue about something that two can't agree even exists. Also, it seems obvious from the first sentence of the chapter that Paul is speaking to those who know the law.
The mud wrestling photo, makes a point.
I've never seen so many personal attacks in one place on Hubpages! It's dirtying up the discusstion.
It's really amazing how people say they are fighting in high places when it is in reality the ability to be strongly opinionated. The practice of doctrines said to be of 'high' regard is what counts. Practice. Not the verbal spewing of words in the name of righteousness. The righteous portray a level of false notes that invalidates the whole meaning of what they are intending to pass. Best not pass knowledge at all unless it is fully integrated into your knowledge bank in the form of being that which is preached.
So you're spiritual?
So making fun of my mother because she is dead is OK?
Everyone has some form of spiritual essence, hidden beneath their upbringing.
Scriptural knowledge is useless unless it is applied to life. And also useless if it is misinterpreted.
Not aware of who is making fun of your mother, I've missed that part. and am choosing not to go over it. But it's very likely it's not your mother who is insulted if she is passed on. If it's you who are insulted then perhaps it would pay to source why you are in the situation of being insulted and why are you reacting? In some spiritual traditions this is the path of transformation.
Actually there is some wisdom there that I wish were mentioned in some other thread.
Sometimes chaos leads to self-awareness if you see that your perceived enemy bears light. If you surrender to the feedback, you grow in self-awareness.
I came here to laugh Jewels, but that is some thought I wish you posted elsewhere as it deserves a good discussion. Ever think of creating a hub about it?
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