Forgive them

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   Jeramiposted 14 years ago

   Scripture says that while Jesus was on the cross One of the last things that he said (Decreed ??) was something like this  "Father forgive them for they know not what they do"
   
     One of the last things that he did was to forgive them ...... Non Christians that had just strung him up on the cross????
     Are they going to hell  ??

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      mjane24posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      repentance is turning from wrong belief and turn to nJESUS.

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         Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         In all respect and with no intention of arguement, I do not understand...?   What does forgiveness mean in this instance.
         These people that Jesus asked for forgiveness for had not repented. They did not ask for forgiveness? And yet Jesus forgave them??  What was he doing when he did this?

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      SirDentposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      All have been forgiven. When Jesus died for the sins of thw world, He died for all sinners who ever lived and who will ever live in the future.
      
      Forgiveness has nothing to do with going to hell or not. Repentance does, but more importantly accepting the sacrifice of Jesus and believing on Him is what it takes to stay out of hell.

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         mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         If he died for all this sins in the world then why is there war,rape, hunger and disease on this planet ?
         
         This is a false statement meant to glorify Christianity by those who havent understood god,the the prophets or Jesus properly.

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            Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            You are absolutely correct.
              The main reason that I have been attempting to Un-interpret prophesy is to show that our interpretations of what we think that the rest of scripture is saying is tainted.
               I believe that it is.

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      mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I have mentioned this earlier the prophets are limited in their powers and its totally in gods hands.
      
      He may want to forgive them but god may not.

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         Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Good point..  I was guilty of what I was speaking about others doing.  .  Changing the meaning of something by Reading something into it that was not written.
         
           For years I have been focusing upon not doing that and yet I can't seem to stop doing it.

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         aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Matthew 9:4-6
         And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
         
         For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?
         
         But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

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            mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Yes he was great prophet ad had great powers no doubt about that .Then I repeat even the prophets are limited when they are in the body.
            
            "Why have you forsaken me:" Jesus .
            
            This is why Islam does not equate the prophet with god.
            
            Muhammad was known to prophecies but once what he said didn't happen to which he said I should have said by the grace of god or god willing.

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               aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Think you forgot to read the whole quote:
               
               "But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins...."
               
               or what about this statement...
               
               Matthew 28:17-18 (King James Version)
               
               And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
               
               And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
               
               or this...
               
               Luke 9:1
               
               Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.
               
               Prophets do not have this authority and power, Christ did and still does and those who obey Him do also...
               
               ohn 14:11-13
               
               Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
               
               Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
               
               And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
               
               -----------
               
               Now obviously what WE believers pray for needs to fall in line with what God wants us to receive, praying for wealth will not normally work! - but Christ ONLY did His Fathers will, so His prayers were NEVER censored by God.

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                  mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  "Why have you forsaken me" Jesus-
                  
                  Shows his limitations,or else he would have got himself freed and not been crucified on the cross.
                  
                  Many humans have gained enlightenment and with it great powers.
                  
                  The Sikh saints forbid their children from performing miracles as the universe was in absolute perfection and interference was avoided.
                  
                  Jesus understood his limitations.
                  When he died and merged with god this is when he had full powers of god but not in the human body.

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      Justine76posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      no, they were forgiven.

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      Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      What kind of loving father would purposely send his son off to die for a cause, to be tortured, beaten and then killed?
      
      Who will forgive the evil twisted father for such an act of cruelty?

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         alternate poetposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Half of the western world - it was called world war one and two

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            Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Good point, but I would wonder just how many fathers purposely did that and how many were dead set against it, but had no choice.

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               alternate poetposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               The feeling of the day was to send their sons to defend good old England (and the US) and be proud to do so

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                  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  Ah yes, of course, the 50 caliber machine guns that mowed them down later were not taken into consideration at the time.

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                     alternate poetposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     They never are

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                     Stimpposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     Were the bast@rds that flew their planes into the twin towers?????????  Sorry.  I hope they rot ALIVE first and THEN burn while they are still alive in HEll.  If someone on this forum has sympathy for these b@stards....take it to someone who cares.
                     
                     Also, In response the first forum question....who can say for sure and who really cares?  Honestly?????

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                        alternate poetposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        Interesting illustration of short sightedness.
                        
                        I take that you don't think that those who flew the planes into the twin towers had any prior motivation?  That it is not useful to discuss why someone would kill themselves for their beliefs?

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                           Stimpposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                           Are you seriously siding and calling me short sighted BECAUSE these people may have had motivation???  Really??  So, essentially if we have any motivation whatsoever, you are giving us the green light to kill, torture and masaquer $4K+ innocent people and babies??  Huh, interesting.  Very interesting.  So, I'm guessing Columnbine was justified, the McDonald murders were justified, the Hillside Strangler was justified, Charles Manson and his "missionaries" were justified in killing not only a sht ton of people but a woman who was 8 mos pregnant.  They all had motivation right????  Am I right???  So according to you it's okay.  Perfect.

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            Stimpposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Ummmmmm....Twin Towers.

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         Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         I really do gotta go do something on my honey-do book.
         
           But will first answer your question with a question..
         
           What kind of person would cut out one of their  perfectly good livers or kidneys and give it to a family member or complete stranger for that matter..???
         
           Some would when asked and some wouldn't.
           Some don't have to be asked.
         
           The answer to your question is that "I really do not know?"

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            Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Your analogy is false, Jerami. Those people aren't being sent to be brutally murdered.

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               Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               In this anology the person represented "God" and Jesus is represented as the body part.
               This was the vocus of the question as I presieved it.
               
                 I'm getting some dirty looks from the person holding my
               honey-do book.
                 See ya  Later

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         mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         All is god one is playing this game with oneself.
         Its called the cosmic joke.

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      Friendlywordposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Nobody is going to hell.
      
      Let's say for a minute; YOU WERE JESUS!
      
      Would you let somebody whip you through the streets half naked, lay down on a cross and let somebody nail you to it? Just to save Joe Blow, Mary Jane, and their Cat? Or would you die and shed your blood to wash away the sins of the whole world?  I think that's what my Lord and Savior did.

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         Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         I caint argue with that. That was the point I was wanting to hear.  I don't think you gotta pronounce his name right either.
         The Word of God is the only way to get to god.  And God wrote  that our your heart.

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2. 60

   Jeramiposted 14 years ago

   I do not want to hinder anyones beliefs in whatever it may be.
   As I have said before; If we believe  "in"  what scripture says..
   We should examine what it says. All too often interpretations that we have learned clouds our vision of what is written.
   
      I'll be falling in the bed in a few minutes ...
      I realy apreciate exploring this issue in the morning.
   
      I do think that this is a pertinant issue.
      One of the last things that Jesus is said to have spoken seems to have been saying more than I had ever thought of before. 
     Maybe it's just me.

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   kessposted 14 years ago

   Like I have said before way too much emphasis is placed on trying to interprete or in your case Jerami, not to interprete what Jesus had said.
   
   The better way is to develop the mind of the Christ, from which Jesus spoke and act.
   
   With this mind you need not know anything that Jesus said nor did, for all knowledge is with you in this Spirit and all your actions and words are motivated by this Spirit.
   
   Jesus definitely was not following a script mentally nor physical to know what to do nor say. Neither should you.
   
   Jesus understood the nature of the flesh thus he spake.

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      mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      He is walking a spiritual path, give him that credit, he does understand and acknowledge a view point, he is no fanatic.

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         kessposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         I do recognise this Mohit, but his love for the christian scripts hinders him greatly. For within christianity those who can interpret the scripts are the greatest.
         
         But it is not so with the Christ.

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            mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            He is trying to find the meaning of these scriptures and doesn't  blindly follow  what someone else says. Its the perfect approach to have.

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            alternate poetposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            I cannot help but look in to comment on the arrogance of the various religious sects -
            - Jerami is one of the very few christians on here who questions your various books of words in a meaningful and respectful manner.
            
            Most of the anti-religious posters also seem to have time for him and his views, or if not hen they show him some respect.
            
            All your books can be interpreted in any number of ways - they have all been re-written, bits left out and bits added by various people over time and then translated several times - maybe the underlying meanings are still clear and Jerami has a more deeply thought take on those meanings than any of you  mouthing words they do not understand as though they mean anything.
            
            I personally think religion is in its last days and your apocalypse is for you.

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   kessposted 14 years ago

   God has forgiven all yet not all will be forgiven.
   
   Truth never condemn but redeem.
   
   The false always condemns.
   
   So those who remain condemned are those who love the false for they belong to it and their condemnation springs from their ownselves.
   
   I do not speak for christianity but against it.

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   Jeramiposted 14 years ago

   kess said ..I do not speak for christianity but against it.
   
   Jerami says ..  If your defination of christianity is the same as mine,and I think that it is; then we agree.  I think that Out direction of examination and our style of expression are diffrent
   But  coming to the similar conclusions..

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   Jeramiposted 14 years ago

   The point that I intended to make is that God is not as exclusive as many would have him to be.
   
      For instance in the story I told above; Had the children that  "did"  earn the McDonalds meal not allowed those children that did not work, to come along with us to share in their reward, I would not have been so anxious and proud in giving them their reward.
     I would have kept my promise if they had refused to let the others come also, But I would not have been as proud of them.
   
      I wonder how many Christians are going to want to share their reward with those that didn't deserve to recieve it?
      How exclusive are they going to be?
      It is written that; In the end; (not until) at the time of judgment,that the saints are going to be judges. ???
      If so; I wonder how forgiving they are going to be??

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   goldenpathposted 14 years ago

   Hell, Sheol, Paradise all mean "world of spirits."  They simply entered the world of spirits as Christ did after His crucifixion and before His resurrection.  The righteous and the wicked both go to this realm though not mingled together.  Are they damned, no.  It is in that realm that spirits are taught and continue to learn.  This must be so in order to ensure equal judgement for all.  It ensures being judged according to the works while in the flesh yet with the knowledge of God (whether learned in mortality or on the other side).
   
   Now, if we are inquiring of the absolute low of the low - that shall not be decided on until after the millenial reign of Christ and the final struggle commences.

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      alternate poetposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Hi Goldenpath - do you think this is coming soon, ie does your script include the apocalypse as 2012 or any time soon?
      
      I have student discussions about this and would welcome any info you believe from your book.

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         goldenpathposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         In my faith we hold firm that no one knows the hour in which these things will come.  To consistently search for the "hour" or "year" is denying the self of constant self improvement in preparation for such events.  We are to live each moment of our lives as if Christ is coming tomorrow.  We are not to spend our time searching and scientifically nailing down the "when" of all things.  This will only ensure that one is truly not ready. 
         
         2012 - no.  God allows us or denies us time according to our progression and worthiness - not calendars.
         
         The final battles are not in preparation to the millenial reign, but post-millenial reign.  Sure, leading up there will be wars and rumors of wars and upheavals, but there will be a great and final battle after Satan has been loosed for a "season."  There he shall gather his forces and the disciples of Christ will stand resolute with a testimony in their hearts and an unwaivering faith due to their incredible good works.  This will aid in the final placement of all being assigned for this world.

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            alternate poetposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            any take on the nature of this manifestation of satan and the season referred to  ?

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               goldenpathposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Put it this way and deduce a conclusion.  Satan and his hosts will never have what they desire most - a physical body to tabernacle their spirit.  This is what they were denied due to their rebellion before the Father and the Son when the great plan for the Earth and all inhabitants were laid.  The were cast out and shall never have the opportunity to progress.  They have had their agency to tempt man and will eventually be bound while the great millenial work of Christ commences.  This will include sacred work not only for the living but also for those who have passed on that all may partake of the Abrahamic covenant.
               
               Imagine the misery and destitute situation of Satan.  His only drive and purpose now it to gain forces to his cause because he will never progress.  He knows that all who have taken up mortal clay will have power over him and not the other way around.  In fact, he knows that in the end even Cain will reign over him in the darkness of their respective realm.
               
               Will the battle be sore.  Given the conditions of the mindset of Satan and the worsening feelings he'll have from being bound I'd say a definite "YES."  No one knows the exact conditions of the struggle but consider the clash between extreme righteousness which will prevail during the Millenium and extreme wickedness which derive from the enticings of Satan.  All I can say is oil and water.....

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                  alternate poetposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  I follow what you say around the forums and admire your calm polite responses, although I do not share your views.  This info is very useful for our discussions, clear and concise - Thank you very much.

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               Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               This refers to a prophetic period of time.
               Rev. 6:11 states that after the fifth seal is broken the saints that are "under" the alter were asking when was their blood going to be avenged. They were told to wait yet for a little season.
                  After the seventh seal is broken there is silence in heaven for 1/2 an hour indicating a separation of time between the seal judgments being fulfilled and the trumpets being handed out.
                   (Rev. 20) Satan is bound for a thousand years and the saints that had been killed for their testamony are seen in heaven with Jesus where they reign for a thousand years while satan is bound in the pit. At the end of the 1000 years Satan will be loosed for a   "LITTLE" season   to gather together the kings of the earth to battle.
                    Here is the tricky part.
                 According to Chapter 20 These saints that did not recieve the mark of the beast are seen in heaven. The beast had to have been on the earth before the 1000 yearsbegan.
                  After the 1000 years and Satan is loosed for a little season, The sixth bowl is poured out and the dragon (Satan) the beast and false prophet are seen in the dried up river bed. Spirits come out of their mouths and go out to  gather together the kings of the earth to battle. (Rev.16:12)
                 The 1000 years would have to have been contained within the 42 months of the beast.

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                  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  When reading prophesy it is important to analize but not change the written message with interpretations of it
                  
                    really just re posted cause it was last post on page and I thought ya might not see my answer to your question.. and I wanted your feed back.

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   blondepoetposted 14 years ago

   Forgiveness is opening a closed heart.

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      alternate poetposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Ahhhhhhhh !   but probably wasted in the religious forums

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         blondepoetposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Lol probably alternate poet but I needed to say it.I have practised it myself in the most dark moments.
         Unforgiveness can eat away away at your heart like acid.

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            alternate poetposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Yes it does, and makes it harder for anyone else to open it again    Funny how we can waste so much time before finding these things out when it seems so obvious when we learn it huh!

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