Noah's Ark discovered by scientists in Turkey

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   Greek Oneposted 13 years ago

   Since we are talking about evidence of Biblical truths...
   
   while attending a bachelor party in Vegas a few years back, I experienced real-life occurrences reminiscent of Sodom and Gomorrah

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   4x4posted 13 years ago

   I'm with those who are saying "again?"
   
   But anyway, as in everything even IF we do manage to find the real ark, there will still be a LOT of people who will not believe.
   
   And I want to add one more bone to this, are we even sure that Mt. Ararat is the mountain that was referred to in the Old Testament? Do we know if it's name is in proper use at the time of the writing of the Jewish Scriptures?
   
   And then this. What if in time, we do manage to find or identify the correct mountains of Ararat as mentioned in the Bible and DO FIND it there because we were all looking at all the wrong places for so long. Will all people at that time start to believe? I still highly doubt that.
   
   Who knows, this might even be like the Boy who Cried Wolf.

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   outdoorsguyposted 13 years ago

   its a fraud.  witnesses have already stated that the group spent a year shipping timbers to the site to build the structures they claim to have found.
   
   and yes Archeologists do study droppings at sites.   
   
   
   no there is no evidence of a global flood.  not so far at any rate.  no matter what biblical literalists like to claim. 
   
   there is a long history of Ark fraud in this area.
   
   
   and last but not least.. the Oldest written flood myth is not from the bible but Akkadian around the 18th century BCE.
   
   of course this doesnt matter to Literalists.

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      Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Believers have a long history of faking evidence to support their beliefs.  This is often done by those very high up in the order of religious cults. 
      
      Josephus, a roman historian who wrote about many aspects of life in Jesus' time didn't mention him at all.  Several hundred years later church clergy thought there ought to be something about Jesus in the many writings about all facets of life Josephus chronicled.  So they added it in themselves.
      
      It  was inserted and began : "There was a man called Jesus....."
      
      Some of the clergy were told and believed they could lie or threaten to gain converts to their faith.  Anything to get new adherents to their church was acceptable.  So, nothing but more of the same with this "ark" charade.

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         Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Actually  Josephus began his career as a writer of ancient  history when Emperor Vespasian assigned him the task of writing of the generals exploits while still the commander of the Roman Legions that was sent to Jerusalem to put down a Jewish revolt. But was called back to Rome to become Emperor.
         
            Josephus wrote a lot of books and he did most certainly mention there being a leader of a NEW religious cult being crucified. And that religion cult took off like a scalded dog;  or something like that. 
         
            Any way now that you mention Josephus, ya need to read the conditions that were prevalent in the Judean area from 35 AD (when Josephus was born) until 70 AD when Prince Titus arrived at Jerusalem and soon demolished the city and totally destroyed the temple. Also Titus later became the tenth Emperor of the Roman Empire.; This was the same year Vesuvius erupted burying three major cities. 
          
           I see prophesy being fulfilled here???

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            Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            The inclusions of Jesus in the writings of Josephus came about in the 17th century.  Previous volumes mentioned Jesus not at all.  These fraudulent passages were inserted at a later time. 
            
            Josephus was a Pharisaic Jew and therefore did not recognize Jesus as the Messiah.  The consensus by biblical scholars seems to be that Josephus did not write these passages.

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               Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               This could be true.  Seems like we really caint trust what we read any longer. What is this world coming to??

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                  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  It has been this way for thousands of years, Jerami.  It's just easier to debunk fraud than it used to be.  There are no proven records of Jesus ever having existed.  Not saying he didn't, just no actual records remain proving he did.
                  
                  Some of the fake reports of records purporting to describe Jesus make for interesting reading though.  Ever heard of the Archko Volumes?  A quite sloppy but popular fraud perpetrated in the latter part of the 19th century.

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               habeeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               "In the second, brief mention, Josephus calls James "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ."[49] The great majority of scholars consider this shorter reference to Jesus to be substantially authentic,[50] although a minority has raised doubts.[51]"
               
               Jesus is also mentioned in several Gnostic texts, and in the writings of Clement of Rome, Papias, and Seutonius.

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                  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Been a long time sinse I've done a lot of reading. 
                     Years back I read a lot of Josephus.
                     Here lately; reading a couple of Chapters of anything puts me to sleep. 
                     I mostly rely upon memory and that is failing.
                     After memory fails all that I will have left is opinion and attitude.
                  
                       I'm just joking;    maybe.

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                  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  The Gnostic texts were written long after Jesus was supposed to have walked the earth, roughly 600 years.  Nothing pertinent there. 
                  
                  The reference cited about James is still in doubt as earlier citations of the work of Josephus did not mention Jesus at all. 
                  
                  Where you read about the work of Josephus makes a difference also.  Many religious sites include the fraudulent passages. 
                  
                  What Clement knew about Jesus was told to him.  Hearsay at best.
                  
                  Papias lived in the second century.  Nuff said!
                  
                  Seutonius was born in 69 A.D. More hearsay!

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                     habeeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     Ummmm, no. Papius was born in the year 60. And Tacitus was born in 56. He supposedly interviewed people who had known Jesus and witnessed His crucifiction, referring to Him as "Christus" or "Chrestus."

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                        Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        Ummmm, yes! Still just hearsay.  None you mentioned ever met Jesus personally.  The "Christian followers were attempting to gain support of their cult (just like today) and naturally many claimed to have known of Jesus. 
                        
                        Again, not saying they were not telling the truth, but nothing concrete as far as actual proof.  "Supposedly" being a key word.
                        
                        No reports by scientists of the day of an earthquake or the sky darkening during the crucifixion.  Many kept details of planetary movement and other stellar phenomenon, so this would have been something they would have not failed to chronicle if true.
                        
                        Pliny the Elder along with Josephus would have certainly reported this episode if it were real.  Interested in almost everything scientific, Pliny the Elder died while trying to witness the effects of the eruption of Vesuvius on Pompeii in 79 A.D.

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   mikelongposted 13 years ago

   If I remember correctly, the Jewish Noah story existed only after the Babylonian Captivity period. The Epic of Gilgamesh relates this person who survives a flood, and this account comprises the most ancient of all written stories. There were no Hebrew or Jewish peoples contemporary to the Sumerians.
   
   Abraham himaself is from Ur, whis is an ancient Sumerian city, existing far before the Chaldeam period. It is also likely that there is a connection to the transferring of this story through this source.
   
   To point to the Quran for verification is an inherently flawed endeavor. Muhammad and the culture of Mecca and Yathrib were connected in numerous ways to Jewish and Christian ideas prior to the creation of this holy book. Being that Muslim ideology is based in the foundation of Abraham, there is no way that there could be any possible contradiction with the early old testament concepts.
   
   Does the Babylonian (the oldest of all flood stories ever written) text talk about a mountain called Ararat?
   
   No.
   
   
   Is there any connection to the Biblical diety God/Yahweh/Jehova/Allah?
   
   No.
   
   Is there the monolithic concept of monotheism?
   
   No.
   
   The story, the oldest of all known, is much different from the Biblical version.....and while there are flood myths in many cultures around the world I point out that most human cultures lived near regions prone to flooding, like in Mesopotamia and Egypt (and elsewhere of course). Also, these stories are not all the same. They are quite varied, and do not display any commonality in terms of monotheism vs. other forms of religious perception, do not emulate the Biblical narrative or even align in overall purpose.
   
   As an Armenian, I understand fully the almost unanimous belief among my fellow descendents of Hayk that they are descended from the line of Japheth. But, they fail to remember that before the Christian religion came to their identity that they were firm Zoroastrians.
   
   For most Armenians their religion is their identity, and can be compared to patriotism or nationalism as opposed to something that is based on actual facts.
   
   I have no problem with the fact that there is no mystical Biblical boat atop Ararat, and I continue to stand amazed at how self-interested persons continue to play with people.
   
   Can we move on please?

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   habeeposted 13 years ago

   I'm not an historical scholar, but it seems that some of what appears in the writings of Josephus about Jesus is accepted as authentic by most scholars. The other parts are believed to have been added later by someone else.

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   Jeramiposted 13 years ago

   It seems that regardless of the subject matter there are always opposite opinions and we have to choose what to believe

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      habeeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Totally correct!
      
      RD, note my use of the word "supposedly." I believe Tacitus referred to Christus or Chrestus as the leader of a new religion. That doesn't sound like something a slave would have been capable of doing. Our arguing about this is pointless, really.
      
      As for letters written that would prove the existence of Jesus, like the one from Herod's son, some "experts" say they're legitimate, and some say they're not. We will probably never know for sure. And even if it were proven that a man named Jesus of Nazareth did exist, it wouldn't prove that He was the son of God. It wouldn't change my beliefs either way, nor would it change your lack of belief. So what's the point?
      
      I think we might go to the GA Renaissance Fair in the next couple of weeks. You and Beth wanna go?

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         Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         I'm not as knowledgeable on these things as you seem to be.
         I meant to look it up a few minutes ago, didn't, But I think that Josephus was born in 35 AD, and was something like a governor of one of those cities around Jerusalem.
         
           He would have been well aware of who Jesus was.
         
           As far as the invite...Thanks ...  Is Beth pretty, I'll see if my wife will let me go, but I doubt it.  She will say that it is too far.
         
         
         ==========================
         
         
         habee said …   nor would it change your lack of belief.
         
         
         =================================
         Jerami said...  I Think ya got me confused with someone else.
         I believe that Jesus was the Messiah as described in the OT. and he fulfilled all that he is said to do.
            I just question the organized religious condition.
            I believe in there being a God, and Abraham meat him.
         I just do not trust the written word of the NT to be totally infallible.

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            Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            RD is me, Jerami!  And yes, Beth is very pretty.  LOL!

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               Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Sorry about that, I missed the initials.
               Figured somebody didn't understand something right.
               
               Guess it was me. I tried to be funny.
               probably about bed time. Eyes getting tired and my mind is getting weak.
               
                 I'll hang on for a few more minutes

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               habeeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               OMG! You said your wife is pretty! I can't wait to tell her! Maybe you're not all bad. lol!

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   Randy Godwinposted 13 years ago

   The name Chrestus used by Suetonius which some believe referred to Jesus was a common Greek name used often for slaves.  Suetonius was a very thorough researcher having done biographies of Julius Caesar, among other notables of the day. 
   
   It is doubtful he would get the spelling wrong if referring to Christ.  Christos would have been the correct spelling if referring to Jesus Christ.

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   Randy Godwinposted 13 years ago

   When examined under ultra violet light, the oldest manuscript of Tacitus (with the same passage you refer to) revealed it had been tampered with.  The upper and lower portion of the "e" in the word "Chrestianos" had been erased and changed to an "i" to change the meaning of the word.
   
   Also, some of the passages are not accurate in their description of places people and things.  The tampering (a common church fraud at the time) has tainted the historical accuracy of his works.
   
      
   
   You know Beth wouldn't let me have any of the wenches at the GARF.  So whats the use!

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   Jeramiposted 13 years ago

   Woe I just noticed what time it is.  Way past my bed time.
   Good nite yaul

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    earnestshubposted 13 years ago

    Hello Habee Randy & Jeremi!
    
    The ark.
    A replica.
    
    
    
    
    What were they smokin?

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       Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       I wonder if Noah used screws or lag bolts in the construction of the ark?

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          Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          I think that Earnest already answered that question.
            HE thinks that Noah put it together with model airplane glue.
          
            I disagree!

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    habeeposted 13 years ago

    Randy, how do ya think that would work on Lake Blackshear? I think it would make a great party boat!

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       Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       I can picture you water skiing behind it while I was down below dressing out a unicorn for the grill!

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          earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Hmmmmmm... Unicorn ribs! Yummy!

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             Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             The gopherwood coals really gives them a heavenly flavor too!

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          earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          The water skiing would be a bit difficult though Randy. That hull would need about a thousand horsepower to see 5 knots!
          Talk about hard chine!

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             Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             Noah had all the dinosaurpower he needed to get around!

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    earnestshubposted 13 years ago

    Oh yeh! Plenty of dinosaurs would help. Good power to weight ratio from rex and a few of the other dinosaurs.
    A bit big to carry around on a boat though!

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       Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       I thought the same, but the fundie religious theme park in Tennessee has a mock up of the ark with dinosaurs on board. 
       
       I kid you not!!

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    earnestshubposted 13 years ago

    You bein straight with me Randy??
    
    How many different species of Dinosaur did they manage to believe in?

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       Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Putting dinosaurs on the ark isn't really that odd  in religious museums and theme parks in some parts of America.  Especially in the south and west.  Perhaps this should be on that "Ignorance" thread instead of here.
       
       Anyhow, check out this one in Arkansas! 
       
       
          http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2005/ … ion.usnews

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          earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          OK I saw the article. Now I understand.
          Not exactly scientific is it?

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             Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             Only to creationists and fundies!  There are others too!  Can you imagine children being taught this stuff in schools?  Many would love for this very thing to be included alongside of the theory of evolution. 
             
             We have some ignorant folks here, Earnest!  They really believe this horses**t!

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                earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                That has got to be ignorance by choice, or indoctrination.
                Does the capacity for logical thought just float off when people get religion?

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                   Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                   Ministers hold sway over many people in my area.  They tell them not only what to think, but how to think.  How to vote, what to vote for and against, all by the sermons they preach from the pulpit.
                   
                   You wouldn't believe some of the editorials in the local "fish wrappers" some call newspapers.  There is a church of some sort on almost every corner in the smaller towns in this area.  You can't throw a cat without hitting a Jehovah's Witness or knocking a Mormon off his bicycle.
                   
                   A sad state of human regression if I ever saw it.  They can pray the enamel off a bed pan too!

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                      Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                      

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                      earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                      Geez Randy! I got a mental picture of the cat lady from the Simpsons in there throwing cats, knocking down those Mormons!
                      I hope the Simpsons see your post!
                      Oh, and they need to keep the line about the bedpans as well!

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                         Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                         It is funny in a tragic sort of way!  Unless you live amongst these pious sinners, of course!  See ya later, gotta get a few Z's so I'm gonna make like a shepherd and get the flock outta here!

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                            earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                            OK Randy, thanks for the chat, you have a good sleep then.

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    Cagsilposted 13 years ago

    It's choice, because they are selfish. They rather guarantee themselves salvation and belief, than accept the fact that it's just US(human beings), as of right now, and should be working together to solve problem.
    
    They rather put themselves in a place of righteousness, do as I say, not as I do, pathetic concept. No wonder society is wasting away.

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    habeeposted 13 years ago

    RD, I was wondering...if you rendered the unicorn fat, would the results taste like pony cracklings?

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       Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Nothing can compare with pony cracklings!  But they would be similar to spotted owl if prepared correctly!

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