I see that the champions of democracy here advocate freedom of faith for others; but don’t allow it for Muhammad when they lived in Mecca and were persecuted, blockaded for years and tortured by the Meccans; and when Muhammad migrated to a peaceful resort far away (about 400 kilometers away); the Meccans did not rest them and live them in peace at Medina.
Please explain to me the fair principle you have in mind in this connection.
In the name of justice please.
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
guess it is arabic culture than about world..even today in saudia arabia , churches/temples are not allowed..now we can understand how saudi might have been during muhammad days..
There is no hypocracy here, Paar... Muhammad didn't believe in democracy, did he? So why should he have been accorded the freedoms found in democratic nations?
Yes, I think he should have been granted the same amount of freedon of faith that Jews get in Saudi Arabia...
or perhaps Ahmadis in Pakistan.
Hi friend Greek One
Muhammad was not a Politician; he was Messenger Prophet of the Creator-God Allah YHWH. There is no set system of democracy; if it means consultation with the people; yes Muhammad did evrything with consultation. He allowed freedom of faith to everybody. The purpose of his defensive wars was to establish and uphold freedom of faith:
[2:191] And fight in the cause of Allah against those who fight against you, but do not transgress. Surely, Allah loves not the transgressors.
[2:192] And kill them wherever you meet them and drive them out from where they have driven you out; for persecution is worse than killing. And fight them not in, and near, the Sacred Mosque until they fight you therein. But if they fight you, then fight them: such is the requital for the disbelievers.
[2:193] But if they desist, then surely Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful.
[2:194] And fight them until there is no persecution, and religion is freely professed for Allah. But if they desist, then remember that no hostility is allowed except against the aggressors.
[2:195] The violation of a Sacred Month should be retaliated in the Sacred Month; and for all sacred things there is the law of retaliation. So, whoso transgresses against you, punish him for his transgression to the extent to which he has transgressed against you. And fear Allah and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.
[2:196] And spend for the cause of Allah, and cast not yourselves into ruin with your own hands, and do good; surely, Allah loves those who do good.
[2:197] And complete the Hajj and the ‘Umrah for the sake of Allah: but if you are kept back, then make whatever offering is easily available; and do not shave your heads until the offering reaches its destination. And whoever among you is sick or has an ailment of the head, should make an expiation either by fasting or almsgiving or a sacrifice. But when you are safe, then he, who would avail himself of the ‘Umrah together with the Hajj, should make whatever offering is easily obtainable. But such of you as cannot find an offering should fast three days during the Pilgrimage, and seven when you return home; these are ten complete. This is for him whose family does not reside near the Sacred Mosque. And fear Allah and know that Allah is severe in punishing.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … ;verse=193
Please see the verse [2:194].
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
muhammad was religious , political as well as military leader..muhammad formed government which 4 caliphs continued and later other caliphs took over...
Muhammad never aspired for any political offics; as a Prophet Messenger when his people gave him a responsiblity,after consultaions among them, with consensus ; he took up the responsiblity.Meccans offered him to make him a King if he left his faith while he was at Mecca; but he declined.
It was like Moses did
may be but by time of end of his life , he was political leader who ran an government , military leader as well as religious leader..
Wow, just sounds like another "Kill if you must" religion. Allah or God no matter what you want to call him misconstrued by man to sound like a vengeful cruel "human" who would punish you severely if you do not do his bidding, yet loves you unconditionally, but if you do not spread his word and others go against it, you can kill them or persecute them or torture them, or whatever, its okay. Sick sick sick. When will man stop killing in the name of manmade religions and stop blaming it on a higher power?
THere is no other religion at all allowed into Saudi Arabia. None but islam.
Explain that paas...
Your, fair and loving leader, commanded death to all other religions in Arabia. And death to any Arab who does not follow Islam.
Yet you spout about islamic fairness.
islam is hate.
No, islam is not at all hate! Have u ever heard about the treaty of madina? Tat will explain Islam's point of view towards other religions! And as for ur saying "Your, fair and loving leader, commanded death to all religions in Arabia. And death to an Arab who does not follow islam!" That was not the case in Muhammad(P.B.U.H) period! Everyone was free to follow any religion. And u cannot blame Islam for what the 'present' government of Saudia enforces. Islam supports peace!
It is never right to judge a religion by a few of its followers or a particular country adhering to it.Islam believes in tolerance and during the lifetime of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) in Madina there were Jews who had built a place of worship and also preached their religion!They were never threatened by Muslims at all as they meant no hostility.This is Islam, the religion of tolerance and peace.Islam allows anyone to choose and practice his or her faith with complete freedom, as long as they do not threaten Muslims and Islam or indulge in immorality.
How about, in the name of Honesty, for a change, dear friend and Islamic propagandist?
The would would be a much better place if all listened to great prophets like Muhammad who promoted peaceful co existence between religions.
Hi friend mohitmisra
Thanks for appreciating Muhammad
Welcome paarsurrey but you should listen to his teachings as well.
Please keep me posted if I deviate
Tolerance for other religions.
But you keep insisting all the other religions have gone corrupt with time and all should follow Islam.
What about Guru Nanak the founder of Sikhism , isn't he a great prophet?
He said there is no Hindu or Muslim- One.
you certainly do not have tolerance for other religions. you keep on trying to externally prove you're right and they're wrong. it's many different paths to the same destination.
you're still alive aren't you. no one has a fatwa on your head.
please display above three digit intelligence.
you are still alive even if you are telling everybody that christians and buddhists are wrong about what they believe, correct?
you are not forced to hide in europe because there's a fatwa on your head.
mark knowles is still alive. no one wants to kill him literally speaking. NO one wants to kill you for differing your beliefs from the majority, so you're allowed to express your faith.
they are also allowed not to like you and express it. So I don't know what you're griping about.
So what is your worry there; please rest in peace
you are Muslim .... stop using that word ....
you are just MIRAZ OR AHMEDI ....
BUT NOT FOLLOWER OF MUHAMMAD (SAW)
Actually...Muhammad's junk DNA had been reactivated at an early age, This made it unecessary for him to care about freedom of religion in the 21'st century.
When Muhammad's primary information packet was developed, a Y-shaped, fractal protein template was constructed by a "forward growth" process - in accord with the traditional picture - via transcription of DNA to RNA (where, in turn, RNA builds nucleic acids up into structural protein).
Allah, In the course of constructing the Y-shaped template, the primary genes were turned on. Thus, the most primitive part of the process retains Watson's simplified scheme. The principle does not contradict the 'DNA makes RNA makes proteins' picture, but rather goes beyond it - dispensing with both the hitherto forbidden feedback mechanism as well as the entire notion of junk DNA present in Muhammad's genetic makeup.
On the contrary, the genetically crucial process known as methylation demonstrates just such a "backward" flow. In a stunning reversal of Muhammad's views, it now appears that environmental influences can act directly on the genetic code. Moreover, methylation of DNA is not merely epigenetic, but HoloGenomic.
Muhammad lived 1500 years ago. What do modern defenders of the concepts of democracy and freedom of religion have to do with a bunch of pagan tribal Meccans who lived barely 100 years after the fall of Rome?
Freedom of faith??????
I thought that the Islamic faith preached tolerance of other faiths, so why are you not allowed to follow other faiths in Saudi Arabia??? No Churches, not allowed other religious books, symbols or anything!! I know of Christians that were expelled due to having there own place of worship where they gathered each week! Is that the freedom of faith that you speak about?
Freedom of faith, only to the faithful (Muslims), of course.
They can all convert to Islam, then they will be free to believe whatever they want, so long as it's Islam.
Like Jesus, Muhammad was no fanatic its some of his followers who haven't understood god or his prophets who are the fanatics.
Just like Henry Ford who said you could have any colour car you want as long as it was black.
It's especially sad considering that Moorish Spain was hundreds of years ahead of its time in regard to freedom of religion, promotion of science and education, and many other progressive ideas. It's like Islam has spent the last 500 years going backwards.
Hi friend kerryg
I agree with you; it is because the Muslims in genereal have deviated from the peaceful path of Muhammad. If one deviates one degenerate.
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
exactly...paar freedom of faith for muslims exist every where..only saudi is biased country which does not give freedom to other faiths..i think saudi should allow building churches /temples ..it is high time now ..in world of globalization , one cannot be that closed..what say?
No freedom here full stop.........................
Don't forget there is no elections or anything here.... The country is run by a King who is quite reasonable from what I can see but still has to give way to the church for a lot of things... When he dies I hate to think what will happen as many do not support his reforms and if the wrong person becomes king then things could take a huge step backwards.... (not that it has gone very far forwards!!)
Does the vatican have any mosques...It is really wrong to pick a country and criticize its religion for its wrong doings...Saudi Arabai is not purely Islamic at all,it implements probably 10-15% of the Islamic law.
Muhammad established a religion.
Upon his death this religion was divided into two different belief systems. Shouldn't one of these have to be seen as false?? A False prophet so to speak?? .
@jerami muslims divisio in two system is more political than religious ones.. while sunnis dont believe right to caliph is reserved by muhammad's family , shia believe ali should have been first caliph..so it is more to do with successor than anything else..
The fundamentals of Islam as a whole have always remained same.There are only a minority the shia which claim difference in belief.Even though the rest of the sunni Muslims have divisions,like hanafi,shafi,etc almost all of them have the same fundamental belief of worship of one Good and belif of messenger ship of prophet Muhammad.The difference are trivial....Moreover Islam condemns division of sects in religion,Allah(SWt) says in the quran
‘Surely they who divided their religion into parts and became sects, you have no concern with them; their affair is only with Allah, then He will inform them of what they did. ‘
Muhammad was probably cool. But when HE died that religion split into two. One of those two is the false prophet that is mentioned in the KJV in Chapter 13.
Arjumand01 said ....Moreover Islam condemns division of sects in religion,Allah(SWt) says in the quran
Jerami said I do not recall The Christian bible actually saying that in black and white,, But I see this as implied when Jesus said that when we break one of these laws that we have broken them all,
It seems that to say that the different sects are fundamentally the same implies that they each deny the existence of OR break different laws.
Is it not written according to Islam, that Gabriel said that he came to deliver the same message that had been given to the Hebrews much earlier but they had fallen away from the original messages?
It seems that to break the law down into different sects and denominations and of itself could be seen as a falling away from the law ???
That once the division occurred it became a slippery slope.
And we have all slipped down that slope.
Arjumand01 said Surely they who divided their religion into parts and became sects, you have no concern with them; their affair is only with Allah, then He will inform them of what they did. ‘
Jerami said ... This last statement should be considered to be true by everyone .. even the jihads ??
This is n interesting discussion here we are having.The point which the non muslims keep on missing is...muslims and islam is not the same thing.One can clearly c that you people are biased aganst Islam.so much that no truth can ever penetrate your minds.why are u giving the example of saudiarabia,i know non muslims are not allowed in Makkah and Medinah,but this is not what the Prophet or even his caliphs did.When he conquered Makkah,he gave unconditional amnesty to all his opponents.No historian has ever denied the fact that when he returned to makkah as the conquerer he called the people,the leaders who made him leave his birthplace,and asked them''what do you now expect from me''they said;;you are a soon of a noble brothjer we expect only forgiveness from you.'' he said'' go free ,all of you''. are you ignorant of it or you are chosing to ignore the fact that Makkah was conquered without shedding a single drop of blood.Not only this but he declared the house of his worst enemy a sanctuary.he forgave the man who killed his beloved uncle.
you know what..you need to read..a lot.
Oh yes we need more of this type of tripe! As bad as the OT!
Qur’an 8:7 “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels (non-Muslims) out to the last.’”
Qur’an 8:39 “So, fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam.”
you only c.wat u want to see...there are more then 6,000 ayas in QURAN.If that was de only thing you could find,i feel really sorry for you.
I think some how you are under the false impression that muslims are not supoposed to fight the enemies.. the only thing they should do is to surrender,n let the foes do as dey lwant. The verses are about the war..like what you should do when you are in a war....when the others fight with you ,you should resist them til the end.
let me clear you another misconceoption. Islam is not the religion muslims follow...we belive that all the religions ,like chiristanity n jeweism are a part of islam... and we infact actully belive that Bible and Torah are divine books revealed by The Alimight. If you had read in deatail you might have noticed how other prophets are praised in Quran.
another imporatant point is..the people the m,uslims were fighting with at the time were not christains or jews..they were really infidels..they didnt folow any religion.. and what was the fighting about....trhey used to buirn their daughters alive...You seem to have rerad Quran..I ask you to tell me wat does Quran say about that..give me the exact aaya..
the opponents were not god fearing christains or jews.they were a law less community who didnt folow any god.
How can we see what we want to see when the words are there right in front of us?
When "the others fight with you" becomes criticism of Islam in any way shape or form, it is then the proponents of Islam who start the wars. Cartoon depictions of Muhammad, for example, incite rioting and violence from Muslims.
This is something we don't want to see, but we see it, despite 6000 ayas in the Quran.
What infidels burned whose daughters alive?
These verses, one could check them from the context, were specific for the Meccans, of Muhammad's time, who always invaded Medina well equipped and in large numbers often three times larger than the Muslims.
One could check the verses, with five verse verses preceding and five following verses for the context of the verses.
One could also check it from Wikipedia; battle of trench, battle of Ohud, battle of Badar as to who were the invaders. Inspite of the large numbers of the Meccan invaders; they were defeated by the Muslim. The invaders never wanted a dialogue or debate or discussion; the peaceful modes of resolving the matters.
I am an Ahamdi peaceful Muslim
So that is how you justify your hate filled tome?
Just doesn't wash with me!
And who believe in (the Qur'an and the Sunnah) which has been sent down (revealed) to you (Muhammad Peace be upon him ) and in [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel), etc.] which were sent down before you and they believe with certainty in the Hereafter. (Resurrection, recompense of their good and bad deeds, Paradise and Hell, etc.).
They are on (true) guidance from their Lord, and they are the successful.( surah Baqarah,ayah 6)
And believe in what I have sent down (this Qur'an), confirming that which is with you, [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)], and be not the first to disbelieve therein, and buy not with My Verses [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] a small price (i.e. getting a small gain by selling My Verses), and fear Me and Me Alone. (suran Baqarah aayah 41)
And those who believe (in the Oneness of Allah) and do righteous good deeds, they are dwellers of Paradise, they will dwell therein forever.
God is LOVE
God is life
Jesus is the Prince of Peace
The war is about good verses evil
The TRUTH will set you free
Freedom is sweet for Jesus gives you joy and peace in the midst of chaos!
The Bible is a trippy book, it is so awesome to see how GOD crushes our enemies ( you will see I said it is GOD who goes before those who seek freedom to allow people to be whatever they want to be)LOVE is impossible apart from GOD for GOD is LOVE
'If you say you love God who you cannot see and hate your brother who you can see then God is not in you for God is Love'
We are all decendents of Adam and Eve, so we are all brothers and sisters no matter the difference of outward looks!
The LOVE REVOLUTION is here!
Grace and heartfelt peace to all
Is it just me, or am I reading diametrically opposing beliefs?
yes it is just you.
Oh, for a minute there I thought you said how much you enjoy your god crushing your enemies and then went on to talk about love. I see that as an obvious contradiction.
There would be more acceptance of Islam in the west if Islam wouldn't insist on their religious law superseding local and federal statutes. We can't have a bunch of fundamentalists taking political control in communities and violating constitutionality by allowing beheadings and other forms of punishment that is against our way of life. Treatment of females is a hot topic here, and much of what we in the west see is a subjugation which doesn't sit well with us. What the religious freedom issue is about here has been muddied, but it was because certain religious groups were persecuted for their beleifs, and the forefathers wanted to be a haven for the oppressed. Is Islam persecuted in their own lands? Gotta be yes, because there are a lot of American citizens who are Islamic. Still, there must be only one rule of law.
Hi friend Dave Barnett
Religion guides in the Ethical, Moral and Spiritual realms; in the temporal realm a Muslim has to obey the law of the land he lives in. A Muslim has to be faithful to the country he lives.
This is what Quran/Islam/Muhammad tell us.
Muhammad lived very peacefully in Mecca for 13 years; till the Meccans persecuted, tortured Muslims to the extent that they had to migrate. When Muhammad also migrated to Medina a place about 400 kilometers away; the Meccans did not let them rest and invaded them there often with large numbers and better equipped. What option was left for Muhammad except to defend himself. This is what our friends here don't realize.
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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