Belief or Reason

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   stephane86posted 13 years ago

   For contemporary man, religious faith pertains in many respects to the sphere of childish emotion and irrationality. For the man without faith, religion exists because it takes advantage of the fear inherent to human nature before what is unknown. In this perspective, man only believes in what he ignores; or rather, ignorance and fear are the true and two causes of belief. In this respect, the man who is an unbeliever sees himself as enlightened in his reason from ignorance, and at the same time liberated in his will and his passions from fear and the shackles of the faith. In this light, for the majority, there seems to be an inability to reconcile religious faith with human reason. In your view, what is the cause of the current decline in belief and faith? Is it primarily intellectual and human, social and cultural, economic and political or a combination of the preceding elements ?

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      Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Religion only came into existence out of societal pressures from growth and expansion of humanity. Had it not, then the perceived notion of chaos would have ensued.
      
      However, religion not only enslaved people, but the religious leaders lived well off the labor. As growth continued, then stem politics, off of religion. They were at the time educated elite.
      
      Those who has the ability to talk directly with god. The mystics and oracles ruled through force.
      
      Religion however has gotten humanity to it's breaking point, with politics and government, having a hand in every aspect of people's lives.
      
      The fact that people believe in god or a god is solely for selfish reasons. Some would say it is "death" that they fear, that makes them believe god exists. Some rather think whatever they can think, just to make through their day.
      
      When you look at religion- ALL religions are founded on the same 3 doctrines. ALL religions that take in a penny is considered a business. The religion of Christianity is a business, a multi-billion dollar a year business. ALL 3 doctrines are unattainable.
      
      The business description- Christianity delivers a code of ethics, that are bound to a higher cause other than man.
      
      There is nothing saying or against Christianity lying to people.
      
      To have a higher cause than man? Means, you are selfish. It means that you believe in something above humanity, because you are rewarded in some manner. You prefer to receive that reward over that of your neighbor, friend, family member and everyone else.
      
      It is that selfishness that needs to go away and more focus on humanity's survival. Religion- belief in god needs to go away.

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         stephane86posted 13 years agoin reply to this

         I understand your point of view. And I agree that in many respects, the belief in religion is driven nowadays at least, by a certain egocentrism.
         
         However, this has not always been the case. Religion used to a social institution or rather, it used a cultural influence, shaping the way that humans actually lived their lives and how they arranged society.
         
         Since the time of the Reformation and even more so since the Enlightenment, this situation has changed, at least, as far as the Western world is concerned.
         
         But to say that religion enslaves people in an almost systematic manner is I think, too simplistic a claim. In fact, I would gather that today at this very time, there are many people who would rather remain a Hindu, a Buddhist, a Muslim or a Christian than be anything else. So I think, the idea of religion as a means of enslavement can only go so far.
         
         Now, if we were talking about the case of woman, it would be an interesting argument and a different issue.

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            Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Actually, "religion" the mystic kind is detrimental to the health and wealth of the world.
            
            As for enslavement of people, as I said, it is in ancient history and a documented fact. It is not negated just because you think it did not happen.
            
            The religious figures at the time 1000 B.C. were nothing but liars and cheats, formed out of the educated elite, and took pleasure on manipulating those who didn't know any better.
            
            How has that changed in 3000 years?

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               kimberlyslyricsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Nicely put Cagsil, a little reasoning is so refreshing every once in a while.

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               stephane86posted 13 years agoin reply to this

               I do not deny your argument. Religion over the past centuries has not always been a force for good within society. It has spread violence, generated dissensions and divisions and in general, has been the cause of enmity between human beings.
               
               The problem for us, I believe, is that we are so steeped into the mentality of our current age, that such thinking has almost become second-nature. Furthermore, I presume that, there subsists a general lack of perspective and a lack of awareness of the realization that humanity is faillible. It is one thing and quite acceptable to lay the blame on religion for the atrocities of mankind, of which I am quite conscious and certainly deplore; and quite another to see it as an element that can only be generated and driven by fear.
               
               At the heart of religion emotion and sensitivity, is the awareness of awe, the contemplation of created nature which instills in man and elicits out of him reverence and admiration. If we are to comprehend the origin and the driving element of religion, and as to why it sustains such a totalizing hold on human nature, it is simply because behind its expression is hidden the realization that man is dependent and thus indebted to a Power higher than he.
               
               This, is the basic element that is common to all religions whether they be polytheistic or monotheistic. The difference, I think, lies in the fact that not all religions are alike and not all religions express this reality in the same way. Much more could be said on this subject, but I leave it now for your consideration.
               
               As far as the responsibility of religion in the tragedies of mankind, this reality is to be deplored but also understood as a constitution of the human condition. I would say on this matter that, religion has also been a force of good, a civilizing force which has contributed in raising the general level of living among humans.

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                  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  I would say that it is not second-nature, but choice ignorance.
                  Excuse me? Everyone knows they are going to make mistakes and they realize it, either with or without, religious teachings.
                  It is driven by fear. Fear of death, fear of judgment and fear of authority.
                  It's not awareness of awe? It's too many people talking about it like it's a real part of reality. That stems from a lack of knowledge and wisdom of life.
                  Actually, that is what people are made to believe. No one is indebted to any sort of higher power, because there is no higher power known to humanity other than consciousness, for which, humankind uses to tell that they are alive and can control their own actions, through free will thought.
                  I'm sure you're educated enough to have more on the subject, but unfortunately, what you just said is false and if you plan on bring the rest of what you know on this false assumption, then you conclusion is also wrong/false. All religions are the same, each are economically viable and deceive the people of things that are not known. The fear of the unknown helps keep people in line with religion.
                  
                  All religions are founded on the same 3 major doctrines, and speak of a higher power other than humanity. That's about it.
                  Only in certain aspects, but some religious organizations have tried to help others and fail miserably in doing so. Those in power of religion, each different religion, hold the key to destroying religion, but rather continue usurpation of their position and benefit(wealth-wise) off the efforts of others.
                  
                  Nope, sorry, religion(mystic) must end, so humanity can move forward and beyond delusional mental constructs of the past. I'm done here.
                  
                  Our next stop is circular and I'm not running in circles. Thank you for your responses and your time.

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                     stephane86posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     I glean from your posts a general sense of condescension and misunderstanding toward my efforts at rendering myself intelligible.
                     
                     You seem to be repeating too oft-heard arguments which I think can be summed up in the following way:
                     
                     Religion is based on a fear that drives and herds people together.
                     Lack of knowledge and wisdom is at the base of religious emotion and of that quality we call "awe".
                     There is no higher power.
                     Religions are economically motivated.
                     All religions are basically the same.
                     
                     I believe I have addressed the fear argument. But I would say that, to deny the existence of fear as a human emotion, is to make for a faith that is inhumane and almost monstrous. Even in Christianity, this reality of man subsists, but it is accepted as a humanizing force capable of enabling man to understand the limits of his freedom and acknowledging the Omnipotence of his God. But to be more precise, as I have acknowledged earlier, fear is a part of religion, however; it is not a reason for belief.
                     Belief rests on humility, a virtue that enables human reason to subject itself to Divine Reason and accept the reality of God, as a Supreme Being.
                     
                     Despite your argument, it can be seen even today that a lack of knowledge is not a cause or a reason sufficient enough to deter from belief. In fact, arguing from the positive sense, it can be realized that with knowledge, ought to come a greater inquisition into the mysteries of life, and the reason for its existence. In the general sense, your argument has been seen to be validated. Since the advent of the scientific world view, there has been a progressive alienation of faith, which coupled with other societal factors, such as the liberalization of society, have made it increasingly difficult to enter the world of faith. I have in fact, written a series of hubs in the philosophy section concerning this trend entitled: The Terms of the debate.
                     
                     However, I would say that despite the rationalist indentations made into faith, the latter persists and subsists even among the educated elite.  In fact, it may be said that it persists but most often as a constitutive part of human emotion, and not acknowledged as a part of his rational nature. What I am getting at, is therefore that, the manner in which faith is apprehended has changed; the majority of human beings still believe, however their faith has been compartmentalized and reduced to a sphere of life that seems to have little influence on their existence as a whole.
                     
                     In the end, I would say that although faith has clearly receded, it is quite another claim altogether to posit that lack of knowledge and ignorance are at the base of religious fervor. To this day, the streets and cities of the modern developed West, are filled with churches and places of worship, that continue on the tradition of belief inherited by mankind.
                     
                     I will continue on this topic later and address also your other arguments ...

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         stephane86posted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Re-edited comment due to mistakes in writing:
         
         To Cagsil,
         
         I understand your point of view. And I agree that in many respects, the belief in religion is driven nowadays at least, by a certain egocentrism.
         
         However, this has not always been the case. Religion used to be a social institution or rather, it used to have a cultural influence, shaping the way that humans actually lived their lives and how they arranged society.
         
         Since the time of the Reformation and even more so since the Enlightenment, this situation has changed, at least, as far as the Western world is concerned.
         
         But to say that religion enslaves people in an almost systematic manner is I think, too simplistic a claim. In fact, I would gather that today at this very time, there are many people who would rather remain a Hindu, a Buddhist, a Muslim or a Christian than be anything else. So I think, the idea of religion as a means of enslavement can only go so far.
         
         Now, if we were talking about the case of woman, it would be an interesting argument and a different issue.

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      pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      as humans evolve , present religious faith would be more and more challenged and questioned...would this end religious faith?..i dont think so..religion too would get evolved and some other religion might come into being...

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      exorterposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      what is the cause of the current decline in belief and faith?
      IN THE LAST DAYS THERE WILL BE A GREAT FALLING AWAY
      If you love Him[Jesus] He will love you and bless you.He has healed me twice, I have heard him speak to me, He gives you a peace in your life, You can have peace while going through trials.
      Trust in Him and he will give you a measure of faith, joy and peace

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   Diane Insideposted 13 years ago

   I think it is a foolish way of feeling like that person has control, not enlightend like they would have you believe. Humans feel like they have more control if they have nothing or noone to answer to.

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   kessposted 13 years ago

   the sin that leads to death is to point out the lie in others and miss the lie in yourself. Yes religion do harbour and promote a lie. But then what is truth?
   if after all is said and done, we are all?bound to death by the lie ,
   
   is there a need for all the fuss and are we better than the religious?
   
   I don't think so... 
   
   but truth and life is one do not searching till you find it within you.

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   Jeramiposted 13 years ago

   Cagsil said ..  Some rather think whatever they can think, just to make through their day.
   ================
   
      This sounds like a true statement that if it is true would apply to absolutely everyone; You as well as myself ? ? ?   
   ===============================================================
   
   Cagsil said .. Religion however has gotten humanity to it's breaking point, with politics and government, having a hand in every aspect of people's lives.
   ======   
   
       Religion ???  Someone assigned this word to describe  one aspect of human nature. One kind of belief system.
      Everyone has a belief system.
   
      At least that is one of my beliefs
   
      If politics, and/or religion, (as it is currently defined)
   did not exist, there would still be conflicts between different groups with different belief systems. Regardless of what those beliefs consists of !!!
   
      It is mankind that is driving the train into the next depot.

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      Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      You are insinuating something not said. That statement said "some". So, it does not say what you say, because it does not apply to all.

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         Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         I agree that you said what you said !  Some
         
            I just said what I think.  I think that you are correct 
         
            But I take this sentence just one step farther.
         I think that everyone does this wether we realize it or not.
         
            I think so.

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   TMMasonposted 13 years ago

   Talk about chummin the waters...

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      kimberlyslyricsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I'm just treading but it is pretty deep here
      
      I reckon the storm is about to start, put our water wing on NOW!!!
      
      

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6. 61

   cherilswordposted 13 years ago

   Fear is the reason for religion. It is a way of making up for a loss in emotional integrity. In other words, I am not perfect and make mistakes, so I have this religion that can make up for the integrity I lack when I make a mistake. If I did not have this religion, I would be fearful of the lack I perceive in myself and would be condemned. However, because I have religion, it will sacrifice for me, and atone for my inability to fix what I have no idea how to fix. Is this reasonable?

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      stephane86posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Fear is certainly a component of religion. For example, much of Islamic religion is based on a system of fear of punishment and reward. In fact, this is the repository mechanism of the central monotheistic religions and even of the polytheistic religions.
      
      But the question to be posed is why such fear exists and subsists. In reality, there are different kinds of fear. I suppose, the kind of fear that is spoken of here, is that of terror, the type that petrifies and almost reduces man to a nothing, incapable of achieving anything at all. But in reality, religious fear is perhaps different. I would venture to say that, it is humane. It is humane by the simple fact that it is based on man's acknowledgment of his dependence on a higher Power.
      
      In Christianity, the origin of this fear can be traced back to the Original Fall of the parents of humanity, Adam and Eve. In this instance, the disobedience of the First Parents was motivated in part, by a desire that sought to displace the limits placed by God's Divine Will on man's liberty and freedom. The defense to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil stands in fact as a test of man's recognition of his own dependence upon God. In the resulting end, the fruit of their disobedience is a rebellion which at its heart sought to make man, the final arbiter of his own moral choices and and the last authority on his own spiritual decisions.
      
      In this respect, the fear which is generated at the sound of God's Presence is to be understood as a result of the perceived notion that God is in fact the enemy of man's freedom, liberty and happiness. I would venture to say that, this fear, is actually the type of fear that the unbeliever can experience before the realization of the grandeur and of the imperious nature of God. In truth, believers are not as fearful of God as they are grateful to him. Gratitude, is essentially a religious emotion since it evokes in man a sense of indebtedness and a desire for thankfulness.
      
      I would thus say, that, the mechanism by which man believes is perhaps simpler than we realize. Faith, by which man believes, is not borne out of fear, or rather, although it can be based on the expectation of reward and the deterrent of punishment, it reposes on the human capacity to acknowledge that man depends on God, and that his life and destiny only make sense when they are aligned to his Will.

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   paarsurreyposted 13 years ago

   Belief or Reason?
   
   Hi friends
   
   Only reasonable things should be believed in. The Creator- God Allah YHWH; created us all; so it is very reasonable to believe that he does converse with the righteous people. Who could bar Him from talking to His people?
   
   Thanks
   
   I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

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      Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      So much for any form of reasoning.

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      Don Wposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      May be a language barrier, but this argument makes no sense to me.

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   brotheryochananposted 13 years ago

   So many assumptions.
   Reason needs facts to reside upon, belief needs faith, and never the two shall meet. It is, unreasonable, to call belief, unreasonable: as many people, not great people, not presidents or movie stars or people anyone would ever hear of, but ordinary people have lived a prosperous life of giving and caring and helping others and in their way made good imprints upon their community and the world in general guided by their belief through their faith and not upon the reasonableness of society at large.
   "It is one thing and quite acceptable to lay the blame on religion for the atrocities of mankind," Hmmm I wonder if the people at hiroshima and nagasaki would agree with you when a brilliant flash wiped them completely out. I also wonder how many wars today are fought over oil, land acquisition and overpopulation, borders, money and greed instead of religion. As i have said before, WW1, WW2, vietnam, war of 1812, custers last stand, the destruction of the spanish armada, theres an interesting article, ... and the wind blew and god won the war, lol, were these wars of religion, nope. There, in my estimation have been many more people killed in this century that in other centuries combined. I might have to research that just to be sure, but i am feeling at peace in myself saying so. IF we are going to adopt the attitude of blaming religion for the atrocities of mankind then we might as well blame the wildlife for eating people. Mankind was not always so civilized as we like to think we are.
   "Only in certain aspects, but some religious organizations have tried to help others and fail miserably in doing so. Those in power of religion, each different religion, hold the key to destroying religion, but rather continue usurpation of their position and benefit(wealth-wise) off the efforts of others.
   " But its absolutely okay for bill gates to amass enough money end poverty but the few churches that misuse their piddly bit are the standard to condemn all others. You need to get out more and realize that what you read in the news is not the sum of all knowledge and correct beyond reproof. There are many christian works out there, persecution.net for one, my church for another that do wonderful works. How many banks support "food banks" 7 churches in my town do. How many multimillionaires throw dinners for the starving.. yet 4 churches in town have full on meals for all the starving.. that is according to oh no here it comes... SCRIPTURE... feed the needy and poor without thought for payment. Oh my scripture sucks unless you are poor. lol. Churches. Don't bite the hand, that god might make to feed you one day. "Pride cometh before a fall".

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   paarsurreyposted 13 years ago

   Hi friends
   
   Faith should be with reason and not a blind faith; it is the Creator- God Allah YHWH who set the evolution going till everything achieves the designed completion, it is an ongoing process, and it is very reasonable:
   
   [71:14] ‘What is the matter with you that you expect not wisdom and staidness from Allah?
   [71:15] ‘And He has created you in different forms and different conditions.
   [71:16] ‘Have you not seen how Allah has created seven heavens in perfect harmony,
   [71:17] ‘And has placed the moon therein as a light, and made the sun as a lamp?
   [71:18] ‘And Allah has caused you to grow as a good growth from the earth,
   [71:19] ‘Then will He cause you to return thereto, and He will bring you forth a new bringing forth.
   
   http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … p;verse=13
   
   Thanks
   
   I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

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