Nigerian Child Witches and the Church. This almost made me sick.
It's going to be hard for me to write objectively about this, but I'll try.
I've recently seen a documentary about the child witches in Nigeria.
I think it's just about the most terrifying and horrendous thing I've ever seen.
The diagnosis and labelling of a child as a witch is pretty simple.
If a family member gets sick, or something goes wrong in their lives, it's because the youngest member of the family is a witch.
These young children are then ostracised, burnt, maimed, killed, and/or banished. One "religious person" takes pride in boasting on camera how he has personally killed over 100 child witches.
According to the documentary, the main instigator in this frenzy of child witchcraft is Helen Ukpabio, founder of the Liberty Foundation Gospel Ministries. See http://helen-ukpabio.com/
Her mission as stated on her website is to:
help liberate mankind from every yoke and bondage of the enemy through teaching of God’s word in a clear and direct way and exposing the works of the devil and his deceptions in these last days.
One of the ways she does this is to sells a video called "End of the Wicked" which has generated much of the hysteria about child witches.
I understand that Nigeria has one of the highest concentrations of churches per head of population in the world. Obviously, some of these churches condone and support these type of actions.
My question is HOW. And WHY.
Maybe some of the religious philosophers who frequent this forum would be kind enough to tell us more about this practice, and explain how supposedly religious people can do something like this to children.
Article from the guardian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/de … heobserver
More Info:
http://www.steppingstonesnigeria.org/node/18The simple answer is - irrational beliefs produce irrational behavior.
As usual, christianity has absorbed some of the previous belief system to insert itself as the dominant religion. This is no different to burning people at the stake and it was not so long ago witches were being murdered in Europe and the US. In fact - if you think about it, it is only the last third of it's existence that christianity in western countries has stopped this practice. The last witch in Europe to be executed was in 1782.
http://www.bede.org.uk/decline.htm
A woman in Saudi was condemned to death for witchcraft
in 2006 -
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7244579.stm
I do not know the outcome of the appeal.
I don't know whether this is true or faked as fiery seems to think, but I do notice the usual religious crowd has not stepped in to say anything. Except the troll who is attempting to divert the conversation away from the matter at hand.
The moment you have a god giving you instructions into your head is the moment you are free to behave like this.
It always happens. It always will happen - all the time there is power and control to be had over ignorant people.Eric - I'm sticking with your original questions.
How? - because they can. Some people are born to commit evil. Many do it covertly. Some are caught at a later date. Others go undetected. Then there are those that do it openly, such as these people. They use an age old chestnut as an excuse. And the ignorance of others to validate their behaviour.
Why? Because they want to.How could this be? It makes me feel helpless and small.
In short, it's because there are people int his world who believe that they have the right to as they please and twist what should be a force for right action into evil.
I think this so-called religious person should not be killed but should be tortured 1000 or more times in the same way he has done that and all the tortures should be shown on live camera. I feel really shameful that I am a human being.
Gosh, Eric. This is horrifying. I checked out the links you provided and shook my head in disbelief. Is this 1600s Salem?
Obviously, the combination of ignorance and religion (especially so-called evangelical) is as volatile and toxic as ever.
Would you consider writing a hub about this? I think you would get more widespread readership -- and this topic deserves that. MMTypical fanatical thinking from the religiously loony. The pain and suffering caused by fundamentalists like this are sickening.
This is a horrible story, but one that needed telling. Thanks Eric.Eric this is awful. How is it possible that adults can behave in such an idiotic way. The children are the innocents for crying out loud. Yes MM is right, you need to do a hub about this so this nonsense can be stopped.
Thank for sharing even though it is very disturbing.
zsThat's what I'm hoping that the enlightened folk in this religious forum can answer.
And no, I won't do a hub on this. So if you or Mighty Mom want to do one - go for it.
Cheers, Eric G.
@Misha.
I find it sad that the only thing you can say is "Sad".
The problem is not so much religion per se, but a belief in the supernatural. Religion at times has lent itself to spreading a belief in the supernatural, mostly during the religious wars in Europe in the 1800's but in that case I think you can trace the lineage back to the Black Death.
The reason I say that is a belief in the supernatural does not require religion. After the Civil War in the US, seances and a belief in spirits pervaded the US. Most of this was due to the virtual annihilation of a generation of kids during the War.
We can, however, go further back and see other instances of an increased belief in the supernatural. Christianity itself owes its rise to prominence due to the Romans questioning their place in the world as the Empire declined. So that gives us a possible answer as to why people believe in supernatural powers.
It would seem that as people are affected by forces they don't understand, decadence in the case of the Romans, plague in the case of Europeans, mass death due to war for the Americans; that people will embrace a supernatural solution to their problems. Come to think of it, supernaturalism got a boost after the Great War and World War II.
Now what could be so mysterious in Africa that could cause an uptick in the belief of witches, spells and supernatural powers? My belief is the AIDS virus. There are so many misconceptions about the disease and literacy and education in Africa is so hit and miss that we have an ideal breeding ground for the belief in black magic, witches and the casting of evil spells. Religion can fan the flames, but the root cause is not understanding what is happening to your world.That sounds like religion to me. It seems religions believe that their god is here now supporting them in the world in every way, but the death of those too young to be guilty of any thing is ignored.Religion in not questioning this are guilty of perpetrating this nonsense even today. Instead of evangelising in Africa they would be better employed educating the African's about disease and it's causes.
You have such a hate on for religion that you don't understand that a belief in superstition and the supernatural crosses every human culture both in the past and in contemporary culture. It's not like people haven't tried to educate Africans, but developmentally they're where Europe was 600 years ago. They don't even have the philosophical underpinning in the rural areas to get people used to the idea that technology isn't magic, much less have them believe in things they can't see like bacteria and viruses. To them it's all magic. Hell even in Mexico they still believe in curanderos and brujas. Ever been to New Orleans? Neither have I but I had a really good friend who was and he was one of the most superstitious people I'd ever met.
Yes I have been to New Orleans, and I do understand the ignorance in Africa.Religion IS superstition.
How do you reconcile that with Deism? They see the Creator as a master craftsman who started the universe and now watches from the outside. Nothing supernatural about that. In fact under a Deist belief system, there is no room for the supernatural.
This is true, but a rare exception in my opinion.
Rare exception nothing. How do you explain Zen, or Confucianism or Taoism for that matter. You're being intellectually dishonest because you have an ax to grind. Even several flavors of Hinduism eschew a belief in "God" or superstition. It just doesn't fit into your religion is evil mindset, so you ignore it.
Bullshit! Almost all the mainstream religions are based on superstitious nonsense, and many of the beliefs of the lesser religions are baseless rubbish as well, it is you who is being dishonest.
You explained nothing, you just interjected a curse and said something was baseless without proving it. Intellectual dishonesty.
I see no point in arguing with you about this, you do not offer any explanation about your "Flavors" of Hinduism. Zen is hardly a mainstream religion as a Chinese offshoot of Buddhism, Taoism the same, it seems you are the one with an axe to grind.
Zen is Japanese. Perhaps you were thinking of Ch'an. And of course taoism is no offshoot of Buddhism.
The particular school of Buddhism in China that would become Zen when it traveled to Japan.
Interesting. Do you know the Indian antecedent to Ch'an?
Eh, not off the top of my head, to be honest. It grew out of a Buddhist tradition already in China and not directly from India.
Ah well, I'll just have to investigate it. I took some comparative religion classes in college and found the subject fascinating. I would encourage more atheists to study the subject, they're so anti-Cristian, that they slip up quite a bit when it comes to comparing religions and philosophies across time, peoples and places.
If that is a reference to me, I would just remind you that many non believers have studied religion, they just arrived out the other side as I did.
And many atheists have started out where you are and become religious. Heck some of them even became apologists. What's your point?
My point is that you seem to be saying that non-believers are that way through ignorance.
No, that's not what I'm saying. Atheists can be just as smug about being "right" as the most fundamentalist religionist. The point is that we don't know one way or the other. I happen to believe that we can understand the mind of God, just a bit by trying to understand the world around us. Understand that when I say God, what I mean is the creative force behind all of creation. The universe works by far too many rules to have it all arise out of chaos. But the only way we can truly understand creation is if we keep our minds flexible and open to discovery. In their many to prove nothing exists, atheists do themselves a disservice.
I don't see any atheists telling fellow humans that they are going to rot in hell for believing.
That's because you don't believe in an afterlife, so you denigrate people in the here and now, just as they believe you'll be denigrated in the next life over your lack of faith. I've never understood why atheists can't just let it go and allow people to believe what they want. I mean, I know why the fundies can't let it go, but it's not like they can force you to believe.
No I respond to those who suggest they have it that the only way to think is their way, and that something terrible happens to those who do not follow their god.
My question is a bit more elemental than that. Why bother in the first place. By arguing with them, you don't change their minds, what you do is put yourself in the position where you close off certain avenues of thought and speculation. In a way, you can become just as dogmatic as the most rabid fundie.
As I said, I have no proof of the existence of a creative force other than what we might term circumstantial or negative evidence of something. Kind of like how they found Pluto before they had telescopes powerful enough to see it. They could tell by the perturbations of Neptune. Yet how can you listen to something like Dvorak's Symphony Number 9 and not feel connected to something more than what you are? So far as we know, we are unique in the fact that we can create such a thing. While I hope we are not the only sentient in the universe, I have to say that due to the "coincidence" of our planet's creation and evolution we might be more unique than we'll ever know. Again, circumstantial, negative evidence, but it's something worth considering.Music has a very spiritual effect on me. It has nothing to do with god in my book.
Maybe your conception of music and/or God is too narrow.
Religion does not concern itself with the spiritual?
Not often, no. It is more involved in trying to own it.
What you fail to understand is that although religion can be a force for evil in the world, it too can be a force for good. Only through the study of religion, history and philosophy as well as science can we come close to understanding creation and our place in it. Yes religion was used to justify witch burnings, slavery and other evils. But it was also used to establish things like our separation between church and state, abolition and attempts to remind us that we are all brothers and sisters and in the end we have only each other to rely on.
I do understand that religions have done good, and often without ramming their god down someones throat. Not much of that spirit amongst the fundamentalists though, they seem to be more intent on causing suffering than alleviating it. Lot's of people do good works, it is not just religion that goes out in to the world to do good. I have no beef with people being religious, I live in a pretty normal environment with family and friends who are religious. Conflict is rare with them, as they do not feel a need to evangelize or tell me "You are going to hell" or any such rubbish.
No you're correct about fundies, but honestly why fight them. It's like punching a pillow. Any impression that you make is gone as soon as you remove the pressure. Just let them believe what they will. We'll all of us find out the truth sooner or later.
C'mon Eric, you know you can't post anything here that will stay entirely on topic. And what's wrong with that?But you can't control what other people believe any more than a fundie can. All you can do is show your intolerance and drive people away from your point of view.
Jewels, the Qian family was probably the premier dynasty of the Three Kingdoms period. Sure Liu Bei was the heir of the Han empire and Cao Cao the best general, but the best leaders had to have been the Qian family.The difference is that if you look back through these hubs, you will see that it is only the fundies who are intolerant of others, Mark, myself and others usually respond to fundies, we leave other more reasonable people with opinions alone. I do not see that not believing that I am going to hell should drive anyone away.
Nothing, but when there's only about 2 comments in almost 100 that address the question that was initially asked, it's hard work for old blokes like me to keep awake trying to keep track of things.
Yawn : Just dropped in , same old stuff . Of course you are right Eric its a bit like "days of our lives" you can miss a whole week of viewing and pick it up straight away .
What does surprise me is that God Maddie has not thrown a lightning bolt already.
My apologies to Paraglider he posted on topic while I was writing this.
Why should I? What is written condemns itself.
You have your definition of Atheis all wrong. Better re-read stuff about it. Ahtieis is simple ANTI- Theist--Doctrine of Chruch, they do (or I do) beleive in a God, just not ONE being as a person like they seem to think "HE" is.
I dunno, it is pretty widely understood that atheists do not believe in God. Sounds like you may be a polytheist.
If God works in all things and he made everything "GOOD" doesn't it make sense that he is in everything and everything includes not only us but nature, the trees, plants, insects, animals and fishes of the sea nad even in the water and molecules? Is that Polytheism is everything is ONE--EVERYTHING, not select things or those who are elitists?
It still gives no one the right to kill anything, becasue we would be killing ourselves and all the things around us. This would explain diseases. You fool with one part and it does and will affect the others. Moderation in everything. What you take you must put back. We have never done this. Not after religion and the power hungry people who love to control and spread hate and fear for the very things that should not be. We continue to take in the name of the God that made EVERYTHING GOOD--even ourselves. When we take and not give back--well you can see what will happen with whatever it is that we are taking. There is no respect for life--only those who try to control life and others.
Everything is within-----Everything. Nothing can be done without a thought of yours or mine, personal. It all starts within you.
These killings are done by those whgo do not understand---period!
Zen came from Buddhism in Nepal.
Taoism is an offshoot of Buddhism. Neither Zen nor Taoism should be called religions, they are philosophies.Yet it's striking how philosophies and religion concern themselves about man and his place in creation. Methinks you're splitting hairs.
Thanks for the info fireycj. It's nice to get some info from someone who has boots on the ground so to speak.
Confucianism is a philosophy much more than a 'religion' as concieved in Western tradition. There's all manner of gods that are part of the taoist tradition. Zen as well. What complicates matters is the fact that so many (who go out of their way to pose as 'intellectuals') in the West cannot concieve of God outside the 'Big Man with a Beard Sitting on a Cloud' children's book image, and cannot concieve of 'religion' outside the 'Place I go once a Week' form.
Yeah, but my point was that both philosophy and religion concern themselves with humanity and our place in creation. In reality Confucianism is much more a way to order society than a philosophy really, that is after all what Confucian scholarship is concerned with, society and how people act towards one another and how they interact with authority. Come to think of it, the Ten Commandments serve the same purpose to the Judeo-Christian belief systems as Confucianism does to the Chinese. See Earnest, religion and philosophy aren't all that much different.
Except philosophers do not usually demand blind obedience to an invisible entity.
Oh no? Confucianism does. It posits a celestial bureaucracy that mirrors the one found in the Middle Kingdom. Last time I checked after we sent a man to the moon, we found no evidence of a celestial anything really. Ever hear about the Mandate of Heaven?
Yes I have, but my religious studies stopped many years ago, please refresh my memory.
The Mandate of Heaven is what gave the Emperors of China the right to rule. People considered the right to rule rescinded from Heaven due to plagues, fires, poor harvests, etc. Then a new Mandate would be given to whomever could overthrow the old dynasty and establish a new one.
In order to cement the loyalty of the people, over time the Emperors encouraged the belief in a Celestial Bureaucracy that mirrored the one that ran the Empire. This had the effect of muting popular sentiment against the Emperor because if you revolted against him, you revolted against Heaven.
Of course that begs the question, how do you know if the Mandate has been rescinded? I imagine the winners were the ones who decided that the mandate still held if the loyalist forces won or that it was rescinded if the rebels won. So Confucianism, in ordering Chinese society, also posits that the same ordering of society exists in the Celestial sphere. Thus Confucianism does concern itself with a "God-like" figure, namely the Celestial Emperor.Thank you for that. Yes I can see how you connect the Confucians with a God like entity.
A new mandate wasn't given to " whomever could overthrow the old dynasty and establish a new one," (in the faith tradition) but rather if a ruler fell out of harmony with the will of heaven disaster would befall him and his line would be overthrown. A new ruler who could bring the people back into harmony with the will of heaven would have the right to rule (mandate). You know, as it was believed.
Well sure, but you and I know that whomever won the rebellion were the ones who wrote the history, thus the mandate would have been upheld or passed on depending on who won. It's not like anyone knew ahead of time who was going to win. Sun Tzu had it right when he warned how dangerous and expensive wars could be. Countless kingdoms, principalities and, yes, even empires have fallen because they've forgotten that.
Sure. Tell ya what, next time the Celestial Big Cheese drops you a line, let him know I said "What's up?"
A belief in God is supernatural. It's what man does with the supernatural knowledge that's the issue. Ignorance and pompous belief is dangerous.
That's not entirely true. You can believe there is a God and that he created the universe according to laws and allows creation to unfold according to those laws. See no belief in the supernatural.
There are those that see for themselves and have the ability to experience, and those that blindly believe in dogma and have no ability to try and see. Those that do see (supernatural beings for example) then have a responsibility to do no harm.
It matters ziltch if a person believes in a God, God, Jesus etc., it is how a person acts that's important. Belief in God can become irrelevant. But lets say there is a God, fine, no problem with that. What's the point in believing and having all this damn knowledge if people have no idea how to be descent human beings. It's all mayonnaise don't you think? Quite irrelevant to say I believe in God. Who cares what you believe. Who cares what I believe. Sounds very intellectual when people can rattle off who fits in what section of society, nicely structured way of approaching life if you have a category or an ism after your name. But does it make a person a better human being?It takes study and hard work to attempt to understand our world and our place in it. But as you say many people opt for the easy answers or the easy way out. You'll get no argument from me that our actions are what count. The worst evil to come out of Calvinist doctrine was the belief in an elect.
Anyway, it's study and an open mind that teach us the best ways to relate to one another. Sure each religion or philosophy has it's own names and definitions, but when you strip most of that away you see there is an underlying theme to all of them and it's those themes that teach us how to be better people. Those themes are consonant with natural law. It's those things which are common to all religions that show us the way. Not a particular branch or dogma, not what's different about them, but what they have in common.Would be great if we could see our similarities instead of differences, it doesn't seem to come through very well.
My own influence is from a set of teachings that does take what has worked from many traditions and instead of being told 'believe them', my teacher says take what works and through your own experiences you will then see what works. This is what I mean by seeing. It's through experience, and as you've said, knowing through intelligent knowledge helps. But being able to experience is paramount. Philosophy I believe was derived from experience wasn't it? To see is to know, to know is to see, to see is to experience. This religious knowledge is only worth something when it is applied to your own life. Otherwise it's just words on paper. Evangelicals are good with words on paper.
Extremely cogent response, ledefensetech. Well considered and I think you're on to something.
I am a student of history in general and religion's effects on history in particular. I agree with your assessment in regards to Aids and I also think the 37 coups that have occurred in west African countries in the last 150 years also play into the environment of instability and fear that creates such superstitions.
In 1856 Alan Moorehead wrote a an account of British explorer Sir Richard Francis Burton's experiences in Africa called "The White Nile". Burton had this to say about Africans: “They were cursed by an external suspicion combined with superstition and a mullish opposition to change, a savage conservatism. They were utterly dishonest. When they assert they probably lie, when they swear they certainly lie.”
While I think this language is bigoted, xenophobic and amounts to a condemnation of a whole people, what Burton was describing was the heart of the matter in regards to much of western Africa's failings.The worst part about Africa today goes back to colonialism. Out of all the hatreds of the Third World for the First, this one probably is the most justified. When the colonial powers departed, they split Africa up according to their boundaries, not those of tribes and peoples. So what you have in many countries is a scramble for power and whoever gets on top oppresses the others. And so it goes. Yet now with an insistence on "nations" Africa will remain a continent of "schizophrenic" nations until and unless the tribes a) decide to live in peace or b)are allowed to set their own borders with the ability to live life as they see fit.
b.) You mean how Christians want them to see fit.
No, LG, what I mean is that the people who live there must have the ability to choose for themselves how they wish to live.
Do you really, truly think that will happen with all the missionaries around the world and those who are hardpressing to convert others and that they MUST be Saved and then put fear into them if they do not conform to those thoughts?
Do you really believe you can force someone to believe something? I feel sorry for you if you hold humanity in such contempt that you see them all as mindless drones. True there are those that will fall for anything, but that doesn't describe many or even most people.
The belief in family members being witches is not new to this area. During Shaka Zulu's time it was quite common amongst many tribes of Africa. The only reason I know this is because of a recent re-reading of "The Covenant" by James Michner.
Thanks ledefensetech and Earnest.
Yes, this practice is obviously based on superstition and the supernatural.
It's probably naive for me to think that this post could be kept on topic, but I hope that someone will provide an answer to my question of why it is supported - indeed led - by religious people.Religion, for the most part, deals with the unprovable. If there is a creative force, whatever you want to call it, it must exist outside of creation. That being said, since we ourselves exist within creation and cannot currently prove what, if anything, exists outside of creation there is a lot of speculation going on.
It's kind of like the people who claimed to have translated Egyptian hieroglyphics prior to the Rosetta stone being found. People could and did claim all sorts of nonsense because without proof of what the language really said, you could make anything up. But that's only part of the puzzle. Much of early Christianity and other religions as well have, during their periods of growth, adopted and adapted their beliefs to match those of the indigenous people they were trying to convert. While Christianity is the most famous, examples litter the historical record. Buddhism moving into China for instance or moving from China to Japan. A more familiar example to Western historians might be the cult of Mithras or other mystery religions that changed character as they moved through the Roman Empire.
Also it's because people tend to look up to those who claim to have a connection to a higher power or an understanding of mystical mysteries. From witch doctors to priests, imams and hermit-philosophers, there has always been something compelling about those who claim to "see beyond". I suppose that's one of the reasons I'm a deist at heart, you invalidate most of that nonsense at a root level.I'm not sure how being a deist helps - surely that word only means you believe in one God? Christians and Muslims are deist too, but it hasn't stopped them developing a priestly caste who set themselves above others.
A deist believes that the universe was created by God, but that God takes no hand in the day to day affairs of the universe. Universal laws were set, and any species which can think has the opportunity to discover and live by those laws. It's a very "science-friendly" way of reconciling faith and reason.
Earnest, arguing about numbers is really a fallacy in your view. The Chinese are said to be Buddhist, Confucian and Taoist at the same time. So there's a billion of them right there. Is that not enough to be considered "major" religions? You don't want to argue with me because you can't conceive that you might be incorrect or that you really are letting your anger get the better of you.Hardly a Billion, most Chinese do not believe in religion.
Please, just because they're nominally Communist. Chinese are Chinese no matter who sits atop the Dragon Throne. If they really were atheist, they'd destroy all of those opiate houses of the people and follow the One True Path of Communism.
I was married to a Chinese woman for 7 years, and I can assure you that they are mostly non religious. China although having a history in religion, general are not religious, and to say their are about a Billion believers is rubbish.We have Chinese of all religions but they are fractional.
Funny, I've known quite a few Chinese students from back in my college days and they'd admit to atheism as an "official" stance but privately, like many Russians concerning Eastern Orthodoxy, I'd imagine, they still believe in traditional belief systems of their homeland. Or are you upset that many Chinese are converting to Christianity. You argue atheism till you're blue in the face, but there is something about being human that cries out to believe in something, something to have faith in.
Yes it is called religiosity of soul. Carl Jung wrote a whole lot about it. If humans are without religion they feel something is missing. The human condition is no condition to be in, but we are all in it. Religious belief makes no difference to "good" behavior or any other improvements in the way people treat each other. Fear of death is the motivator.
You are thinking of 'religious' from a Western perspective.
I was speaking of the Chinese, and can assure you they are mostly not religious.
And I can assure YOU that most of the folks who told you they were not religious still have a kitchen god on the floor somewhere near the stove, burn hell money in the fall, and visit a temple around new year's.
Does it come down to how malleable the mind is? Curses and superstitions are influenced by thoughts. Once someone believes they have been cursed, the effects can be catastrophic and it's proven that it doesn't take long for the mind belief to turn into a physical manifestation of what was cursed - usually illness. One way to avoid the full blown manifestation of the curse is to 'do what you have been told.' Religious dogma is entwined with the 'do as you are told.' The consequences of course are you will go to hell. To those who have been 'cursed' and are obeying the one who cursed, is of course not able to have freewill. Or if they do chose to have freewill they will be damned to hell for not following the rules.
This is a simplistic explanation but it doesn't have to get much more complicated to understand the mechanisms. People will believe anything in order to get to heaven or nirvana or feel good or be in favor with the charismatic leader.
A dangerous dark mind is what's required to make another person believe that someone else is the cause of their malaise. Levels of course. The woman behind these rituals is a twisted sick person. The ones who believe her are unintelligent fools. The children are innocent vulnerable victims. And we who do nothing about it are audience members allowing it to keep happening, which makes us fools as well.
It's quite irrelevant to believe in superstition, to believe in metaphysical entities. It's the harm caused to another being in the name of that belief that is the issue. Whether you are Christian or Hindu or Buddhist or a Witch makes no bloody difference. But the harming of innocent children for the sake of your belief is abhorrent.I unerstand why you ask the question, but I'm not sure there is an answer that is going to satisfy you. In my long quest for truth, I have decided that "religion" has very little to do with God, and everything to do with the person that needs an excuse to be self-righteous. Whatever a person believes is true, there is a religion to back-up that belief.
People who commit or condone such horrific acts in the name of religion do not represent God, they only represent a "religion" which are a dime-a-dozen. I'm sure religious people think that they are doing good in the world and are pleasing God...they would need justification. Look at the sick and violent acts carried out everyday by religous terriorist.
Why? The answer goes to the very heart of man, because that is where every act originates. That is where a persons truth finds a home. So just because a person is "religious" does not mean that person is a good person, a loving person, a forgiving person, a just person,...
As I said I'm not sure there is an answer - except that the word "religious" is too big a brush, and it tends to paint every person who believes in God the same color. And we are not.
Isn't there a saying that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. How arrogant we are to assume a superior understanding because of who we are.
Sorry, I'm afraid I haven't helped...just ranted on...it is a pickle of a problem .Thanks Ana Louis.
This is close to my personal view.
I have no problem with god.
It's his fan club I can't stand.
(Author Unknown)Wonderful angle. Love this. Great insight.
- fierycjposted 15 years ago
0With all due respect everybody, you guys ought to shut up about stuff you dont know anything about. First of all, I have only word for all this - HOGWASH! I know this Helen Ukpabio you speak of, and this village you speak of, its like six hours from where I am now. Its in Cross River. And I can tell you ABSOlUTELY nothing of the sort occurs! What do you people even take Africa for? A place full of blood-drinking and flesh devouring cannibals swinging on trees like frigging Tarzan or something. There're governments in my country, the rule of law for pete's sake - to even believe that such a thing can occur in these times is laughable. The video you speak of by Helen is a damn movie. The woman fancies herself a movie producer of some sort, and even stars in her own movies. Terrible actress too. She's an Evangelist, who says she was a former witch of the occult, so has been delivered by Christ to expose the world of witchcraft. That's it. This is just another smeer campaign on Nigeria. When will this ever stop, for heaven's sake! Maybe it wont, but till then pls refrain from opening your mouth about stuff you dont have hard facts about. I live there you know. I outta know the real deal. I've said my piece.
That has something of a ring of truth to it fiery... One of the reasons I think so is that there was a similar debate on Hubpages going on about some issue based here in AZ. They had the peripherals right, but were so far off the truth it was laughable, really, to anyone who lives here. I'd need to check a few sources before I form an opinion.
Thanks you for your post fierycj. It's about the only one that is related to the topic of this thread.
You say that people should shut up about stuff they don't know anything about. Now, I know that you don't REALLY believe that statement, because of the questions YOU ask about things YOU know nothing about.
Questions are good. Without them, nobody could learn anything.
I'm glad we've settled that.
In your post you have pretty well proclaimed yourself to be an expert on the subject of Child witchcraft, and have stated that there is no such thing as children being treated as witches and wizards in Nigeria.
In that case, can you explain the many images of small African children with broken, deformed, and amputated limbs, burns, terrible scars from acid burns, and other horrendous injuries who are under the protection of welfare groups in Africa.
How did these injuries occur? Is this the normal way that African parents treat their children?
Or are all these photographs and videos faked too as part of your claimed conspiracy against Nigeria?
You have a worldwide audience here fierycj.
You've stepped up to be Nigeria's spokesman here.
I hope you're up to it.I'm not stepping up to be a wuchmacallit - Nigerian spokesman or whatever you wanna call it. My point is simple really. I live there, and trust me I would know if there's even a hint of truth in it. I've been in Cross Rivers a million times. The place is beautiful. A frigging divine picturesque for heaven's sake. You guys will believe anything negative about Africa. Do you believe every picture or image you see on the web or TV. If you saw pictures of burnt up, injured people in some Western Country and they told you a similar story, bet you wouldn't believe a word of it. Gawd, this makes me so sick. Its unbelievable. Not to mention outrageous. Tell you what, i dont have to rely on stupid info from websites to tell me about whats going down in MY OWN COUNTRY! I'm there and I know what the hell I'm talking about.
I'm in Australia and I had no idea about the attacks on Indian students.
But then again I don't have the media agencies and government departments reporting everything to me, which you obviously must have, if you know every single thing that is going down in your own country.
Fiery, you'll have to pardon me on this comment. Please don’t read me wrong.
Nigeria is a great Country and I wouldn’t condemn it.
This programme was aired in the UK months ago. It was a documentary and painful to watch as it showed the scars that had been afflicted on so many kids when they were tortured and these kids were not acting. (Ages 4 upwards)
See link below: This is a Charity specifically set up for children unjustly accused of being witches and wizards. It was set up in UK and is based in Nigeria, where you are. So you could even give them a call to check the allegations. I’d be interested to know what they say so I can also tell people to stop going on about it too. However, at the moment that documentary and this Charity have strong facts.
About the charity
http://renegadefuturist.com/archives/20 … s-nigeria/
This article is on the Nigerian Charity Website and confirms it is happening. (Nigerians confirming it)
http://www.steppingstonesnigeria.org/files/UN_doc.pdf
Charity is www.steppingstonesnigeria.org
Sorry Fiery. Peace Bruv.Listen Lady E. You've lived in the UK for far too long. You'll believe every damn thing you see. You think like the rest of them. Your brain is hardwired that way. I dont blame you, really. And why do you keep telling me sorry. I know the organization you speak of, and they're a fraud. They make money from portraying Nigeria is this beastly place so Western nations - who love to hear that kinda stuff, will now come and save us from our cannibalistic ways. Be careful unless you'll sell out your heritage. That's all you got left. Now, Lady E. Sorry.
Wow, temperatures are rising. You are right, I have lived in the UK most of my life and I'll overlook the rest of your comments because your seething right now. Accofranco noted she will be doing some investigating and I would love to know the outcome. I'm not happy about the stories either but what I'm I supposed to do when its documented so well. (I said sorry, cos I knew what I wrote would upset you).
All you needed to do was to write a simple comment explaining to me that the Organisation is a Fraud. Wishing you a peaceful evening and hope by tomorrow you are in a calmer spirit.
Lady_E - I would prefer to wait for Accofranco's response(and who btw is a guy). We were once traveling to Mount Rushmore and an American lady asked me do the Indian girls marry snakes? It just shocked us but then she would believe based on her sources since some stray incident in some village where the local astrologer would say that this girl was born in inauspicious time and would bring bad luck to her in laws(husband) then they do a mock ceremonial wedding to an animal to ward off that jinx. I read Indian newspapers and almost every year some strange news like this happens but out of a billion plus population few strange incidents happen here and there but the news folks like CNN who seldom focus outside US(Thank God we have BBC America for world news) find something like this funny then they relay it over here and the folks here end up believing that most of us are like that. I can understand the frustration of Fierycj when we have been there and see for first hand how it is. Sometimes when people have gaps in there understanding then they tend to complete the picture with there own perceptions which may or may not always be accurate. I have no intention to upset you and hope you don't take my opinion otherwise.
A lot of this misunderstanding stems from differing views of 'religion' and 'religious.'
I don't think anyone would claim Sima Qian-ism as a religion, but I know I hiked way the hell up a big ass mountain to a temple devoted to him where pilgrims daily went to pray and leave devotions. The concept of religion and religious is not always as clear as 'I go there on Sundays.'Well the Chinese have that whole ancestor worship thing.
Sure but Chinese and Southeast Asians take to to a whole new level. I'm not sure of any other cultures that venerate their ancestors as much as they do.
That's very true, religion, religious sects and texts are diverse, no questioning that.
Did you feel any presence at the top of that big ass mountain? Except for getting to the top, was it worth it? This is an aside question, seriously. I just read a bit about this man. Seemed he had a phenomenally structured and organized demeanor.To tell you the truth, it was about 98 degrees and I was hung over as hell, so I may not have been in the most spiritual of moods. I will say that anytime I am in the presence or place of something of historical significance I am deeply aware of its importance. Perhaps that is one dimension of spirituality.
It was absolutely worth the trip.That's what I was interested in hearing. Presences are amazing to feel or tune into, and to me it is a dimension of spirituality. Temples can be amazing for vision. Interestingly visiting churches - some leave allot to be desired. Temples where allot of practices are done are noticeable. I think it pays not to have a hangover though, you can see more with a clear head
ledefencetech, Earnest, and tksensei.
I know that this is a totally alien concept in the religious forums, but do you reckon you guys could go and get a room somewhere to continue your totally off topic conversationWe...We...We're getting kicked out? For the love of (insert deity name here, or don't) why?
I don't expect that anyone will take a scrap of notice, but hey - I thought it was worth giving it a try
That is probably a good idea Eric, but there has been little said on the original post. Would love to here back from our Nigerian friend.
You've probably intimidated him and scared him off
Look, I've created a wonderful home for you.
It's a place where you can argue and pontificate to your hearts content, about the minutae of any and every religious topic you can think of.
http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/16574
(But please come back if you'd like to say something about Child witches and Wizards.You mean like Harry Potter?
It's been fascinating guys, but I'm going to have to give up these late night chautauquas. Night everyone.
I'm interested in fiery's response to Eric's question. Up until 3 years ago I'd have put curses and spells in the bin with every other superstitious bit of garbage. But unfortunately when you deconstruct the mumbo jumbo out of it, it is in essence the influence of one person over another persons mind. And believe it or not, similar to any psychological neurosis, some are created through the strangest of circumstances.
A more disturbing part of this is the guardianship of innocent children against superstitious mumbo jumbo.Exactly. And the whole point of this thread is to find out if anyone can explain to what religious justification there could possibly be for supporting this type of activity.
So far, all the only response I've had is the bald assertion that the practice does not exist.
(And apparently there have been instances of this in the UK and other countries as well, so the practice is not unique to Nigeria)My apologies Paraglider. Great comment.
Too much QRM (noise) on the thread, and I missed it.
I agree that religious bodies can turn a blind eye to all sorts of atrocities as long as the ends of the organisation is met. I just can't understand WHY.
Anyone here want to discuss the religious justification of what went on at the Magdalene Laundries?
Joni Mitchell's powerful song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kU1ZymqlhkoSorry, not fitted to my copy of firefox
Eric, what you seen to miss is that these people will use any justification to pursue their evil ends. They will use whatever they can to cast what they do in a divine light. Since religion and philosophy concern themselves with people and their place in the world, it is natural for people to use religion and philosophy as an excuse for their behaviors. Does that condemn the particular religion or philosophy. Not necessarily.
Stephen King was asked once if the censored his writings because he feared "copycat" murders or people using plots from his stories as fodder for their demented fantasies. He said he did not, the reason being that if some unbalanced person didn't choose his plot to copycat, he or she would just use another. The problem is not the reasons they give for their actions, but their actions themselves. As long as we excuse what people do, instead of holding them accountable, things like this will reoccur.And those Pastors need to be held accountable for their actions Yes? No?
Of course they do. By your actions shall you be known. You can claim to be holy or have the ear of God or what have you, but if your actions are evil so are you. It's a pretty easy solution set. Yet even atheists have done great evil in the world. The USSR didn't believe in any type of religion or spirituality and they murdered millions upon millions. What you call yourself isn't important, it's what you do and how you treat people that matter.
I agree, no belief system has a monopoly on doing good or bad in the world.
Correct, BUT and here is the big BUT, they ae hiding behind GOD as they do these horrible things to the innocents--children. They blame it on God or Satan and it is their OWN doing. Giving it to someone else is not being Self Responsible and accountable for their own action.
If they didn't use God, they'd use something else. Heck I dealt with kids in the mental health and foster care system, not only were some of them taken from everything they knew, they were put into abusive foster care situations by the state. Other kids who were abused by their parents were sent back to them after treatment because "families should be together". Making bad decisions and attributing no fault to them is not the sole province of religion.
I know exactly what you are talking about. Had an experience of some kid put back into the home that was abusing them AFTER I had called the authorities. They thought that I was joking. She is now being raised by the Grandmother whom didn't want to raise her in the first place.
In a way that was the best job I'd ever had, in others the worst. But that just makes my point. It's not right belief, but right action that makes the difference. Rather spend so much time and effort in a useless effort to convince people of the unconvinceable, our time would be better spend encouraging right action and deeds.
......like being a sinner and everyone but those who believe are going to hell and damned? Being told what to think about what is in a book? Jesus didn't use a book and he wasn't too keen on anyone using a book either.
In the case of these children and the difficulties they face, what would you see as right action?
I'm assuming you're talking about my kids and not the incident in Africa. Left up to me, I'd have emancipated them, taught them what they needed to be successful as individuals and then let them make their own decision about what they wanted to do after discharge. If that assumption is incorrect, let me know.
I'm talking about the children in Nigeria who are the innocent victims in this sillyness. Is it just bad luck they happened to be born to such parents who are under the magnetic lure of their preacher?
Karma - in this regard, Misha are you saying the children were born to these parents to burn off their own karmic issues? Does this mean it is a matter of letting it happen? How do you break the cycle if these children are brought up with beliefs like their parents. Who helps the children?
I am not saying it is karma, I did not finalize my views on that yet, but if the reports are true and this really took place - and with all other no doubt real cases of child suffering - karma looks like the only feasible explanation. And you ask questions that I don't have answers for, at least not yet
Misha- Karma as a concept can be both positive and negative. Karma according to Bhagvad Gita isn't a passive concept but an active involving concept. If such terrible incidents occur frequently and none of us does anything then even to a certain extent we are guilty of getting collectively bad karma too. Not standing up for the helpless victims and turning a blind eye if and when we have the opportunity to stop it then we are also guilty to a certain extent as much as the perpetrators of the crime. It just makes me very mad that innocent children no matter where are subjected to such atrocities.
Ah CW-girl, you are an angel.
I am being a mere human long ago understood that I am better off concentrating my efforts on my immediate circle of relatives and friends. This is the place where I can make a difference, and worrying about a random person in the middle of Amazon jungles does not really seem to do anything other than exhausting myself...Thanks Misha/Jewels. In my opinion you are accumulating good karma by being helpful to your immediate circle. But when we are face to face with such terrible incidents we shouldn't keep quiet. I sometimes see that some folks equate karma with destiny. Karma as per my readings is constantly evolving hence good thoughts/words/deeds lead to good karma and vice versa.
And what about good intentions CW-girl? They are known to lead to Hell
It wasn't simply good thoughts not followed by good words/deeds. All three together make up good karma. "Good" intentions without really Good deeds aren't solving anything. And sometimes such "good" intentions even lead to evil/bad conclusions. In my opinion "Means are just as important as the ends".
Not intending to harm Misha. As you can tell, I get quite passionate about innocent children.
I do understand the nature of karma. It's very complicated the more you delve into it. It's not simple when you go into rhyme and reason. Even if these children were 'energetically attracted' to their current situation, it doesn't mean they just wear it and move on. And breaking the cycle of this type of destructive behavior - is difficult and requires the help of people who can see it for what it is.Don't feel knowledgeable enough to either agree or argue with your views on this.
Just on the level of how I feel - this is not my problem, this is their lessons and this is their task to solve this puzzle. If I ever am confronted with such a situation in my immediate circle, then I'll put my effort into solving it
Everyone helps the children to break the Karmic Debt. Karma is also known as "Sins of the Father". That can include illnesses, diseases and condition that you may have right now. It's all in your mind--literally. Think good thoughts, know how to turn a negative thought or emotion into a positive one.
You can't choose your family. While in a perfect world parents would understand the duty of parenting and the responsibility it entails, we live in a far from perfect world. Unfortunately I don't see any way to prevent this sort of thing, the best we can do is pick up the pieces afterwords.
I do think that with the right guidance those kids can salvage something from all of this and some even live a life not defined by this barbarity. I've seen kids come from situations as horrific and deal with it and build a life for themselves and I've also seen kids come from backgrounds nowhere near that kind of horror and never get it together. It really is a case by case basis kind of thing. If there is One True Answer to solving the problems of those kids, I'm not smart enough to guess what that might be. I just don't see a way around the problem of parents not taking their responsibilities towards their kids seriously.I do understand what you're saying. The children and their plight can be the same as any other person anywhere in their own situation, be it as bad or worse. Some parents can't take responsibility for their children, when their own parents didn't take responsibility for them, same as their parents. You can see how if people stop caring we are all doomed.
May be not all, but only a part of us that don't take care of our kids?
There is a fine line between meddling in the affairs of parents and their children and condoning the parents for harming their children.
Acknowledging the fact that there are limits to the effects your actions can have is not the same as condoning horrific acts.
As long as we don't lose sight that even though we do come up against limits, we don't stop trying. If we all thought it was up to someone else, nothing would be done.
Ah, but true wisdom can be achieved by understanding where that point is. Now that doesn't excuse you from combating evil wherever you find it, but have a care you don't perpetuate a greater evil by overreaching.
Very true, no need to argue with that. I feel that in this instance, with these children, doing nothing is the greater evil.
Awareness for one because ignorance solves nothing. If through awareness more funding and physical assistance is provided via the organization Stepping Stones, then that helps.
I'm looking into how I can personally help and whether I would hinder or help anything in this situation at the moment. It's like Misha pointed out. You can do things in your immediate circle of influence to improve situations. In some cases you are best to stay out of things if your actions are harmful or fruitless. Let the people who can do something, do it and don't meddle for self gratification. Misha didn't say all that, I just bloated his statement !!
As for the shift in thinking by these people - I think that may need a strong influence, stronger than mine which doesn't account for much I'd say. How that is done, when these teachings are coming from Preachers - I don't bloody know. It's like cancer from what I can see. Do you have any ideas on that? Practical ideas?
Yes you do chose your parents and the lesson to be learned in this lifetime. It's with God's contract.
OK, now who's speculating about something they can't prove?
You haven't read all those accounts that children know and can show where they were before they died in that past lives? Shame on you and I bet you even say that is a fabrication. Prove God if you really want to get into a battle.
Let me get this straight. You castigate people for belief in God, but you believe in past lives? Just because kids could supposedly point out where they lived in these past lives?
Have you by chance heard of the repressed memory controversy? http://www.skepdic.com/repressedmemory.html Perhaps you've heard of the Friedmans, who were possibly the most infamous group of innocent people accused of the sexual abuse of their charges. The realization that came out of this is that kids are highly suggestible and can pick up what the adults around them are telling them, bother verbally and non-verbally. Given this fact, I'd take any claim of past life with a very large grain of salt.I am not doing as you ASS-U-ME that I am doing. So you must get that out of your head first. Then there will be a rational discussion. Enough said!
Funny how you don't refute any of the points I made, then resort to childish name calling. If that's the extent of your knowledge and wisdom, well people aren't missing much when they ignore you.
You are so blinded by your hate of "that book" that you cannot see the underlying wisdom in it. You know I really feel sorry for you. I imagine that if Dante really did write about the afterlife and what happens to lost souls, you'd be in the first circle of the underworld constantly chasing an ephemeral goal, forever locked in fruitless pursuit. Sad.Sir, I never called you any names. I do NOT hate that book either. That is YOUR perception. Because I have a differing view it is called hate to you and others. It is a pattern that all of you who say that you have LOVE in your heart show and it isn't LOVE that you are showing either when you turn it all around to mean what YOU want it to mean.
Jesus had true compassion and if you can't see that then you are the one that is blinded.I would say it is my perception too.
Looks like you have some complicated love-hate relationships with this book, and other people's interpretations of it.
Just a note from the sidelinesNow what would give you that idea? Seriously. I quote the things that Jesus says out of them, but then those peole who stuff it down peoles throats tend to twist it all around, hence I refrain from using it anymore. It does not mean that I hate it.
It's hard to put in words really, this is how you sound here on forums and in your hubs/comments. Of course I can be wrong, cause printed word is pretty different from the spoken one, and English is not my native tongue either, but for me it looks like you used to just genuinely love this book, and now you are trying to rid yourself of it.
Again, I could be wrong, and I am not really satisfied with how I put it down, but looks like it is the best I can do for now
Which is why I want to know:
How does one become a Pastor or Preacher or religious authority?
Who are these Pastors and Preachers accountable to?
Is the Pope their boss?
Is there a register of Pastors and Preachers held somewhere, if so where?
If they align to the Christian religion and read from the christian bible, is there not a human authority they are to be accountable to?
If a christian is condoning the actions of the Pastors within their own tradition, does this not also make them accountable?I know that I am accountable to Jesus and his laws that are inside of me. I produce LOVE and what he tells me to do. If it is not a good choice I will question it. I know the Catholic priests and such are accountable to the Bishops and the Pope. I don't find such good things with that because in their own doctrine it tells the priests that they must at all cost keep the people from knowing the truth but what they teach. They aren't doing to well with that and the Pedophiles and I have trouble with a church or group of people who poo poo it and continue to go to that church or religion. I just cannot condone any of it--at all. I don't know about other religions or beliefs, but what I know.
When they actually sit down and read the original transcripts and writings and take the power and greed and control away and actually read what Jesus said and not others then maybe this religious stuff will work for the people and not against them.It's obvious that there are the down right dangerous and unintelligent when it comes to translations of rules, any rules. Anyone can say they are the chosen one, chosen to spread the word. If they have no f**cking idea of what the word really means, then anyone, ANYONE can stand up and say what they like in the name of God and victims will be gullible enough to believe it, which is what is happening in this instance. Scared people are gullible, they will believe anything will save their sorry asses.
I want to be a witch and put all the fruitcakes in one big pot and cook em. They would stink up the place but the stink would eventually go away. Like the ladies in trooper's parking lot, add a bit of oregano, parsley and salt and a few of those pamphlets for good measure.
1. In Christianity, since the Protestant Reformation if you claim to be a Pastor the only limiting factor is if you can get people to believe you. The Church, of course, has seminaries and a "priest track" as well as ritual and ceremonies that mark who is and who is not anointed, some Protestant factions have their own ways of establishing who can lead parishioners and who cannot, while others require no such schooling or ritual.
2. Depends on the sect. While there is broad support for ecumenism among liturgical and some evangelical branches, there are those who decide to go their own way. I'd imagine this chick in Africa is going her own way.
3. Nope. Only the Catholics, and even then not all of them, consider the Pope to be Christ's Vicar on Earth. But then you also have the Patriarch of the Easter Orthodox Church, but few people understand the difference, so they sweep that little factoid under the carpet.
4. Again that would depend on the sect. Liturgical (Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican, Episcopalian, etc.) tend to follow the Catholic model and have ritual and records that they keep. Evangelical (Baptist, Pentecostal, Seventh Day Adventist, etc) tend to be much more decentralized and record keeping tends to be spotty. For example, while the Church knows without a shadow of a doubt which priests abused kids, Baptists have a harder time sharing that information among their different conferences and groups.
5. Again the Protestant Reformation established that a person can have a direct relationship with God. No intermediary like a Priest or the Pope was needed. One of the great arguments against the Reformation was that there would be cases where people started spouting Christian beliefs without any oversight at all and that could lead to abandonment of Scripture. So that while you would have people claiming to be Christian, by their actions they would show that they were not following Christian doctrine.
6. How can you condemn a person for the actions of another? If they provide material comfort or cover up such atrocities, then yes, they should be held accountable. But holding someone accountable because they believe that a pastor is not capable of such things. Well that's condemning someone for what they think, rather than what they do isn't it? Once you start condemning people for what they believe, where does it end?It's simple Jewels, you just send $25.00 to one of the handy online ordination sites and you can be a pastor. If you want a collar it will be another $25.00. One of the most obnoxious people I have ever conversed with did this and acted as if he was Billy Graham. Oh yeah, and he also claims to be a shaman.
I should have an ordination site, I'd make lots of money!
And then I'd have a list to go before a firing squad Nah, you'd go broke.
This "Church" is offering ordination for free.
http://www.themonastery.org/?destination=ordination
After you become a pastor, you could start your own church, marry people, and do lots of other things.
The Universal Life Church Monastery says:
"We are non-denominational and support a full spectrum interfaith ministry that is open to all with no hurdles, no hoops to jump through, no tests of loyalty, no rings to kiss and no fees to pay.
To learn more about how to be an online ordained minister, simply complete the form provided, and in most cases, you will receive an email within 72 hours confirming that you have been ordained. It’s that easy.
Once you become a pastor, minister, rabbi or priest, you can proceed to perform baptisms, administer traditional wedding vows , and even start your own ministry. ULC can support you with an array of online church services including ministerial training, spiritual books and guides, and many other resources.
Become a clergy member today. You do not have to purchase anything from ULC to be an online ordained minister. All that we ask is for you to promote freedom of and from religion and to “do that which is right.” It is up to each individual to determine what is right as long as it does not infringe upon the rights of others and is within the law. "
No rings to kiss! They've got me!!!I am soooooo ignorant. I'm gobsmacked. 20,000 million ordained ministers since 1959. That's a plague. Is there medication or a vaccine?
I could have a field day here, but I will respect the thread and contain my thoughts to my head for the moment!
That's a very scary number. And probably as legitimate as the certificates they produce.
Thanks for the respectful thoughts, but you may as well let fly here. You've had your moment to think. That's a lot more than many on this thread have taken
I've got a shepherd living with me who would make a great guide for people. I might get him ordained. Do you think he'd prefer to be a pastor or a priest?
Sorry to say to you all here, but I AM a ULC Minister. I did not go to their doctrinated classes. I learned from reading lots and my own experiences. What they do that gets you to really think hard is write a 5 page essay on why you think that you qualify to preach. I don't preach, I ask questions of others so that they can open their own minds. I didn't just up and one day decide that I wanted to do this. It took many years to come to this. People think that I was born in a barn last night and that I, and others like Mark, do not know anything. That is not true and those who like to spread false information are also the ones who come up to us insinnuating that we don't know crap about anything. Their main thing is to get us to read that Bible and be Saved. What they cannot do is just that, Read The Bible without others telling them what they should think about what is on the page and they fail to look at history and other factors that got that book together. That is Ignorance and they are taught that. Should we blame those who are weak enough to believe that crap or the ones who are teaching them that?
There were other things one had to go thrugh to become one of these.
Isn't God or the Universe or the LOVE all around us and in us and as such all are ONE--that is what I take in this Ministry and I do not have a physical church because the church is the people and so is the Temple and other things of that sort. I don't ask for money either. To me that is just not ethical.
One needs to understand that there are other kinds of ministers beyond the Christian Ministership. We are not all Christian Ministers.Guinevere you have disqualified yourself from the debate. An expert in religion, or any world view for that matter, must know exactly what they believe and why they believe it. This is the purpose of doctrine or should i say the fundamentals of any given world view.
The issue with world views is that the majority of them are irreconcilable. Atheism and Islam cannot both be true. Same goes for Judaism, Voodoo, or the Spaghetti Monster.
Due to the irreconcilable nature of religious/atheistic world views one is true and all others are not or none of them are true.
If you believe that Jesus Christ did not preach from a book, your "reading lots" and "experiences" have not made you and expert. You would have been better off taking some of those "doctrinated" classes.
Now, I don't want anybody to think that I aim to take personal pot-shots at anybody here on this forum. Guinevere spoke from the heart which is honorable. The purpose is simply to explain what makes a credible argument, which was unfortunatley at Guinevere's expense. Which brings me to the next point.
The theme of this thread can be titled, "Who can believe in God when His followers behave like a buncha jerks". The general theme of this thread follows an appeal to emotion and the fallacy of bad company. Let us assume that my existence is in question.
The appeal to emotion:
a.) Ender might exist.
b.) Ender enjoys killing people.
c.) Therefore Ender does not exist.
Fallacy of Bad Company:
a.) Ender might exist.
b.) Enders family enjoys killing people.
c.) Therefore Ender does not exist.
If God does in fact exist, emotional appeals and guilt by association arguments have nothing to do with the fact that God exists. These statements are all arguments from ignorance.I am not sure what you are getting at but I never said that I was an expert. No One is! No One is done with learning or education-even after death. We are all learning--period. No one has the right to tell anyone else what they should and should not learn or how to do it. It is all brought to you as you ask and ponder.
The doctrines that I speak of are the ones like the Catholics have which states that they are to keep the congregation and all the clergy unknowing at all costs. I prefer NOT to learn this technique.
Just becaseu I told you that I would rather not leran that you ASS-U-Me'd that I haven't read other doctrines. Slippery Slope and there again I was NOT born in a barn last night!Yet the basis for our assumptions is that that you neither cite nor explain what other sources you mean. All we have is your claim with nothing to back it up.
Why do you get so angry talking about such things?
A LOGICAL ARGUMENT! OMG !!
This would have to be a first in the religious forums
And what's more: if God did not exist, we'd have to invent him!
I became aware of the practice of spells awhile ago. When I was at a lecture about it I was really cynical. Inside my head was 'bullshit, this is such crap.' But it's not unfortunately.
I watched the video and read the links you put up Eric. This is not promotional stuff for the mad woman that fierycj is talking about.
These poor kids are being ostracized by their parents and communities because they've been told their children are witches. The preachers are making money doing rituals or exorcisms on the children to earn money. Not only is there emotional abuse but physical abuse as the children are burnt with acids, poisoned, one girl had nails embedded in her skull.
Spells and witchcraft are not new. But this is beyond your regular spell casting stuff. Hundreds of children are being effected here not because they are witches, but because the pastors want money.
How does one become a Pentacostal pastor?
Do you get a licence from a cereal packet?
Who regulates preachers?
(The AIDS/HIV epidemic has been put in the mix but I'm seeing it is only an underlying reason the Pastors are doing this for money. The pastors are saying the witches are causing you to get AIDS. The witch children are not the cause at all they are being used as tools in a filthy display of human disgusting behavior.) That's my personal opinion and you won't get me to change that view.)Exactly.
And its being done by religious people in the name of God.Very painful. Though my family have been tormented by a witch who later confessed,but we never hurt her,instead we helped her to get spiritual deliverance through our faithful family pastor,and she is now a dedicated Christian.So i think the pastor in question should have helped to deliver the children from the hand of witchcrafty instead of killing them,if she is sure she is serving the true God. Inhumane world we live in!
But what the issue is, is the children are NOT witches. How dare that person think they are almighty powerful to damn a child's life for money. It's not the children who need to be delivered from evil, it's the damn Pastor and the parents of the children who believe the Pastor.
I'd be interested to hear the circumstances under which the confession was made.
Eric - In many parts of Africa ancient superstitious practices persist, sometimes with, sometimes without, open or tacit approval from organised religion. I believe Fierycj is correct in saying that sensationalism plays a part in these stories, but only a part. It is simply untrue to suggest the practices don't exist. Similarly (though off-topic!) some children in India are mutilated horribly to make them more effective beggars. I've seen things in Mumbai that I won't describe here. Back to Africa, there is also, in certain places, persecution of Albinos, including murder, dismembering and cannibalism of the most magic body parts, to protect against evil spirits.
As to your question, I suspect that religious extremists may on occasion condone such practices more readily than would the irreligious or the religiously moderate, because such people are already addicted to the supernatural and opposed to rational analysis. They are therefore more easily corruptible, having made a life practice of denial of reality.
Please note - I am not talking about your everyday mainstream Christian here, only the lunatic fringe.Haven't heard of this story, but for sure witches exist and they sometimes torment too yet,i find no justifying reason(s) to kill or destroy either...we mustn't forget that vampires and aliens exist in some other countries of the world and they are properly taken care of,lol!
...and please,a situation whereby a person confesses that he or she is a witch,and admits killing and frustrating lives,what should be the person's fate Eric?
And we mustn't forget that some Christians are extremists,practicing not just what the Bible teaches but whatever that pleases their beliefs and the ones that brings them fame,riches and followers,and such Christians aren't only found in Africa (Nigeria) but globally,so it is a matter of personality and individualism,just as some Muslims believe in Jihaad while some do not.
Thanks Accofranco,
But what do you have to say in response to the question I raised in my Original Post?
What religious justification is there to poison, burn, dismember, and kill small children?I think the pastor and instigator in question thinks she is fulfilling the Bible prophecy which says:"show no mercy to the wicked",but she interpreted it wrongly i guess,so to me,killing or poisoning is diabolic if we go by Christ's teachings which is the mentor of every faithful Christian,neither am i judging because the Bible said judge not for you not to be judged!We all are imperfect beings,we must acknowledge that fact,thank you.
Before Christians disassociate themselves from this issue, amid the articles that Eric posted (hope they are being read) was the reference to these preachers being Christian, and the use of bible teachings.
I would love for Christians to take ownership of their teachings and regulate who actually preaches the teachings of their bible.
Perhaps you could ask the Pope to intervene on behalf of all Christians and actually help the children of the christian parents who allow this to happen.
I am angry at this, sorry can't help but get emotive when innocent children are involved.Quote Accofranco:
"thinks she is fulfilling the Bible prophecy which says:"show no mercy to the wicked","
You really aren't offering THAT as justification are you?
This would mean that religious people can justify hurting, burning, and killing kids because apparently Jesus also said "Suffer the little children" ??i wasn't quoting Eric,but i still think Fierycj is right,you guys always over exagerate things about Nigeria,you believe every shit you hear about Nigeria,should i mention the Pakistan woman murdered by usa prison warders at the us secret prison? Courtesy, Presstv.ir and those at the Guentamala bay,etc? Africans have forgot the slavery you guys did,yet most of you still talk about us with deep hatred.You talk about Nigerian scam with deep hatred,do you know the worth in currency of the slavery you westerners did to us?No single nation can be able to pay the prize,please talk about Nigeria with some respect and love i beg you all?I love my country Nigeria.
It wouldn't matter if these atrocities were happening in Nigeria or Paris. This is not personal to Nigeria, it isn't, it just happens to be happening in Nigeria. The source of the reports is quite reputable, it's not hard to see what is rubbish reporting and what is not.
This should not be happening anywhere. If it was happening in Chicago, I'd be disgusted at the Pastors in Chicago.
@Froggy, I agree. That's my view too.
@fierycj: Thanks for your contribution.This is the most disgusting appalling, horrifying,cruel act towards children in the so called name of religion I have ever seen. I just wanted to rush there, take the whole bunch of innocent, severely abused children in my arms and take them away from there.
The people who inflicted these horrendous wounds upon these children are the most callous people I have ever seen. I see an over pouring of brain-washed people, this is just unacceptable to harm these innocent children.
My heart is truly bleeding to have seen this, yet I am glad I did, or I would never have known the inhuman acts that are practised in this part of the world. I wish I could just land a huge jet there, and take those children all away from this. Did not the parents say they don't want them anyway?I agree BP. If the parents are that gullible, the bond with their children must not be that strong. Fear preaching is so dangerous. It's not hard to see who is effected by evil in this situation.
Imagine how confused those children must be and how unloved they must feel. Because of a bible preacher! Grrrrrr!Yes Jewels, the looks on their faces, they looked so horribly lost, in pain, the faces of angels with nails in their heads, ankles exposing the bones in them from ropes, children with third degree burns, quite obvious that someone is doing this to these little children. I would be just as appalled if this was happening in my country, the cases we do have here of child abuse also have a profound effect on me. It does not matter where this is happening, child abuse full stop is wrong.
- fierycjposted 15 years ago0
I'm I really talking to myself when I say that I've been to these places and there ain't nothing of that sort going on in those places. Gawd!
- peace bro I haven't said anything as I really don't know
Fierycj - I acknowledged that there is often exaggeration and sensationalism in reports, but you are doing yourself (and Nigeria) no favours by insisting the practice doesn't exist. The argument 'I've been there and it's not true' doesn't hold water. I've been to London but I've never seen a murder committed. Yet they happen. I've been to Sudan and never seen anyone being hacked with a machete. Yet that happens too. I'd go to Nigeria tomorrow if a contract came up. I'm not remotely anti-African. But let's at least be honest, as the first step in changing what must be changed.
But he is saying this person lives close to him and he knows so I give fieryc the benefit of the doubt.
We're not talking exclusively about one person. These atrocities have been reported before.
It started with one person but has now taken a different tangent.
Fiercy you and your friends in Africa are a bunch of blood sucking, child murdering , black magic devils .
Open your eyes , you dont know whats going on around you while many others do
I still believe you fieryc
The fact is someone is putting nails in little children's heads, abusing children, even if the stories are not true,the video evidence strongly suggests children are being abused, is that not something enough to suggest something is happening there. In my country although I have never seen murder, a child being abused, a store attendant being robbed with a gun to his head, an innocent person being murdered, it happens here alright. This does not mean Nigeria is a bad country, nor does it suggest Australia is a bad country, but the bad things that happen within our countries, are unacceptable.
The Guardian is probably the most impartial, reliable, honest and liberal paper in the UK. So I would hate to think that they are lying to be honest. The Guardian are not known to be inaccurate and are a slightly left wing paper, I can't see any kind of motive towards sensationalising negative stories towards Africa. There are plenty of papers in the UK that would do so, but I highly doubt that The Guardian would. I could be wrong, I would be very very dissapointed if I was though.
I am listening....... Fiery have you seen my new hub it is a nice peaceful poem i think you will like it
fierycj, your loyalty is admirable.
But you really need to do a bit of research about your own country.
You could start by checking out the child protection legislation that your country recently has enacted to outlaw this practice, as a result of the documentary that I saw. If it is all a lie, why would your government enact this legislation?
For anyone who is interested, the documentary was shown on 4 corners in Australa on 21st June 2009.
You can watch it online at http://www.abc.net.au/iview
(Not sure if this is available outside Australia)
Um, it isn't our business to insult the families in nigeria. maybe they truly believe in that, so don't diss them!
Unfortunately it's that attitude that keeps the world turning in filth. The children can fend for themselves and be slaughtered in the name of evil stupidity. And in the name of humanity, remind me not to care if a bomb is dropped on Trafalgar Square in peak hour.
It was previously reported that the documentary was fabricated, I'm sure it would be easier to believe that. UNICEF and Amnesty International were aware of it so I'm inclined to go with the reputation of these organizations.
http://thenationonlineng.net/web/articl … Page1.html- \Brenda Scullyposted 15 years ago0
you suck Miss M....... would like to get over you...
Fiery where are you..... I saw that documentary, it was fucking horrendous, and I've also just finished reading a book on the Magdalene laundries, it was one of those books where you just shake your head in disbelief all the way through and shed a few tears along the way.
The fact that all these things happen in the name of religion should be hard to believe and shocking, but strangely it isn't.
A friend and I whilst chatting came to the conclusion that 'really evil' people must be drawn to religion like moths to a light, and that's all I have in way of explanation for you.Yes Mr. Voodoo, It's hard to escape that conclusion.
Especially when you take into account all of the other atrocities that happen in the name of religion.- SirDentposted 15 years ago0
If it is true then it is a very sad thing indeed. It is something that should not happen nor be allowed. If it is not true as fierycj says, then it is only dramatics and means nothing.
Religion is not what cause men to do things such as this. The heart of man is evil and full of mischief.
(edited)
I forgot to mention that I cannot view the videos. I am on dial up interent.Sir Dent, part of you theory is true. A Gun does not kill, the person behind the gun is the kiler. ALL men or MANKIND are not automatically EVIL. That is a myth because I know that I do not have a tendencie to be EVIL as you state. I know many others that way too. So you cannot use a blanket statement like that and truly really believe that. Babies do not do evil things. I read on another hub about the spirit of man and the Holy Spirit properties and evil isn't in any of it.
Religions don't make people do things--hogwash--it is the people who are allowed to or are putting themselves on pedestals or those who are "bullies" that are up onb top who love controlling people. Those are the evil does you speak of.
Each person has choices and those choices dictate the outcome. You will reap what you sow..cause and effect....karma.......
So by your statement it can come to say that those children are really evil doers in their hearts and therefore can and will be the cause of the deaths and diseases in those families?
If one of your parent's died and you had a young child, is that child responsible for the death of that family member? Where is the Self Responsibility or ownership in that?
Have the same problem, Sir Dent. Dial up is a major drag.
Certainly, I am always wary of such things - there was a big case in Scotland a few years ago, where social workers took children away from their parents because of alleged satanistic rituals and child abuse.
It was later thrown out of court for being fabrication and lies.
fiery's opinion is worth listening to - it is in his back-yardYou must have first lived in Africa to understand.The Whites of white nations also used to do these things, guised as Religious practices.....Catholic Instituition comes to mind.....
Sounds like you're not an atheist at all. Go find a local church and tell the priest what you just said up to "What you take you must put back" and he'll likely agree with you.
No they won't. There is no Evil being that does things in this world to harm others or takes their souls away. There is no God that tells you what you can and cannot wear in church because of Respect to HIM.
Nope becaseu they think that their GOD is in control of everything and we are not in control of anything. They teach that you MUST go to Church to receive Jesus and that you MUST have a go-between to get to God. Therefore I do not go with their silly doctrines because that is NOT what the Bible says or what Jesus supposedly said.
Sounds like you are yet another person who stopped considering what religions have to say at a very adolescent level. You might be surprised what a priest has to say if you were willing to engage in a dialog without anger and prejudice.
Let your guard down a littleLOL LOL LOL LOL, I am not angry and I have gone to chruch and listened to them since I was a very little girl! I have also talked with many Catholic Priests about everything under the sun/son.
Some of you just like to assume because someone has a different outlook on things that they were born in a barn last night! LOL LOL LOLRereading your own posts you don't think it is reasonable to conclude that you sound kind of angry?
You say you have "talked with many Catholic Priests about everything under the sun" and I'll have to take your word for that, but it sure doesn't sound like it. It sounds like you saw a picture book of God as a big white guy with a beard sitting on a clound throwing lightening at a red guy with horns and you closed the book and never looked back.
And frankly, it seems that some of your own comments are contradictory in a way.You try to be funny, but you aren't. Can't read either without interjecting some evil slant into everything.
Trying to throw me off--fine. I could give a flying fig what you are trying to do. Many trolls do the very same thing as you are doing.
@Lady E,i am going to do an investigation on this,and when i am through,i will inform you guys,thanks for the good comment you made about Nigeria,remain blessed?
@Lady E,i am going to do an investigation on this,and when i am through,i will inform you guys,thanks for the good comment you made about Nigeria,remain blessed?
@Lady E,i am going to do an investigation on this,and when i am through,i will inform you guys,thanks for the good comment you made about Nigeria,remain blessed?
@Lady E,i am going to do an investigation on this,and when i am through,i will inform you guys,thanks for the good comment you made about Nigeria,remain blessed?
@Lady E,i am going to do an investigation on this,and when i am through,i will inform you guys,thanks for the good comment you made about Nigeria,remain blessed?Meanwhile,you guys must try and stop reasoning like chauvunist,it tarnishes your prestige,evil things happen in every country,though this story is an unconfirmed money-making purpose video,created to gain western audience,which it did got.
@Lady E,i am going to do an investigation on this,and when i am through,i will inform you guys,thanks for the good comment you made about Nigeria,remain blessed?Meanwhile,you guys must try and stop reasoning like chauvunist,it tarnishes your prestige,evil things happen in every country,though this story is an unconfirmed money-making purpose video,created to gain western audience,which it did got.
@Lady E,i am going to do an investigation on this,and when i am through,i will inform you guys,thanks for the good comment you made about Nigeria,remain blessed?Meanwhile,you guys must try and stop reasoning like chauvunist,it tarnishes your prestige,evil things happen in every country,though this story is an unconfirmed money-making purpose video,created to gain western audience,which it did got.
Looks like Hubpages is stuck on the send message thing again!!
Thanks Elena. Hopefully we will get the complete picture soon. Even if these incidents do occur here and there I personally consider these issues have more to do with ignorance/superstition rather than Nigerian/Christian.
"These young children are then ostracised, burnt, maimed, killed, and/or banished. One "religious person" takes pride in boasting on camera how he has personally killed over 100 child witches."
But it's such a peaceful religion, that is if we forget about the Mid-east Crusades, the Southern French Crusade, The Northern Crusade, the Burning of millions of women for being physicians and mid-wives (only 60 thousand documented, but never forget how Romans and Christians love to burn books and documents that don't suit their idealism) the crusade against the Natives all over the World, the attempts to Christianize the Orient by force, the systematic extermination of the North American Natives, the look the other way policy of the Vatican while the Nazi's slaughtered Millions (not just those of the Jewish faith)the rape of CHILDREN by priests, the murder of CHILDREN who are accused of being witches. Hmmm, yea...it's real peaceful, merciful, and charitable. We are so fortunate to have these valient Christians protect us from the devil they invented to give us lowly heathens perspective. Oh, and don't forget that making love to your wife is wrong if you use a condom, and it's a sin if she uses birth control dispite the fact that there are SEVEN BILLION people on the planet, we still need to make MORE babies until there is no more fish in the sea, trees in the forest, or food on our tables. It's all about God's will.Thank You!! Someone spoke up for those who are being tortured and maimed because of some peoples stupity and GREED for more Power! Hear, Hear!
Good on you Trooper you are the man. Travelling around the world with your work I am sure you have seen many things.
Your problem is with humanity, not religion. Take it up with them.
That's a funny and very typical response. Why I find it funny is because of something that happened to me not long after I returned home from Iraq. You see I was there during Baby's Bush's little oil Crusade. Well, after I returned home, I was doing my laundry near my home at a coin wash when two elderly women approached me as I was leaning against my jeep having cigarette and enjoying the morning while my clothes were in the dryer. One of the women approached me and handed me a pamphlet from a local nest of "Christians" and told me I should read it if I wished to be saved". I politely handed it back and said "no thank you"
She then asked I am Jewish. And I told her that I am not still trying to hand her back the pamphlet.
She then asked me if I am afraid to read it, and I said;
"No, I have read both the King James, and the Vatican's English translations of the Christian bible."
She then asked me why I do not wish to read her pamphlet. I told her that I was a soldier and that I had just returned home from war and have no desire to read anything from any religion of the "one god" because throughout the history of Humanity nothing and no one has been responsible for more killing than the followers of the "one god".
She then asked me if I didn't think that some people need to be killed? About that time I asked her once again to please go away. These two women followed me into the laundry, harped at me while I calmly folded my clothes and then followed me out to my jeep as I put the clothes into my car. One of them actually took down my license plate number. Now I will remind you that these women were in thier 60's at least, so for me, a man who at the time was extremely fit and well trained in war, it was a no win situation. How does a man defend himself against two Fanatics in such a situation? All I could think of was,
"How very Christian of them" to accost me endlessly until I was nearly forced to run them down in the parking lot.
My problem is indeed with Humanity, and with the Gods they invent. If you want to be a person of faith, fine. Keep it to yourself and stop bothering people, and if I ever catch one of you fruit cakes abusing a child you better give your soul to your god, because your ass will be mine. That's something I'll happily go to prison for.There are a few other people on HP that does the same things and she is driving me batty! Thanks for telling YOUR side of the story! Until they had to actually 'Kill' someone they have no idea. I have never had to kill someone, but I understand---wonder why that is?
Really? I thought it was kind of original.
Ah, the 'Oil Crusade.' Look at all that oil we got! Oh wait...
You shouldn't smoke, it's bad for you. I like the Jeep though, nice touch.
Why did you use the word "nest"? Got a little bigotry goin' on there?
Good work.
That might have been your mistake right there. Don't engage people who want to bother you in conversation. It only encourages them.
Thank you for your service, btw.
Really? 'Cause the followers of 'no god' have done a pretty damn good job of it too. Humans are a violent, aggressive animal.
What church were they from?
LOL, were you afraid they would physically assault you? Were you planning on beating them up?
I know, that's why I said it.
The problem with that is that a key component of some faiths is sharing the 'good word' and all that. I suppose some get a little too zealous about that part.
And what the hell was the point of that last bit? Leaving aside for the moment the fact that I haven't said what if any religion I personally subscribe to -
Am I supposed to say now that I had better not catch any of you atheists abusing a child ('cause they do too) or your ass will be mine? 'Cause it will. Should I say that I had better not catch you making that kind of accusation to me personally or your ass will be mine? 'Cause it will. How's that? Any more tough talk needed? I was under the impression you were older than this.Afraid of them? No, Afraid of me...yes.
Don't thank me, I didn't serve for you, I served an Idea, only to find out that I am one of the few creatures in this lost land that seems to have taken the time to read it, understand it, and actually volenteer to defend it. Unfortuately, I was lied to. Don't thank me, because I'll NEVER be on the wrong side again.Trooper it's off topic but, out of curiosity, what group or groups do you hold responsible to lying to you? I've heard this sort of thing from recent vets. Not from guys my dads age or even most guys who served in Vietnam, Ivan the Terrible being an exception, but recent vets who feel they've been lied to. And do you think the lies are ongoing?
Who? lol, I was once told never argue with a fool. I think I'll take that advice now. I probably should have sooner in this thread.
Yes they are, no need to look further than the Rupert Murdock propaganda network aka Fox News.How many buddies of yours would you say feel the same way?
Almost every soldier that has seen the wrong end of a rifle. Many still are in, but they are no longer there for Country, they are there for the kids. Someone has to look out for them and bring them home safe. I did my time, and I now realize that I can no longer fight the unseen within my country, and I am powerless to convince the foolish that they are wrong. The U.S. is a sham, and the few men and women that try to to make it right are washed over by the millions of morons that are trying to make it evil, White and "Rightous". The door does indeed swing both ways, and I'll be using it.
That's what I was afraid of. I don't agree with all of your characterizations, but at this point, that doesn't really matter. We have a situation unprecedented in our history. We have a private army who feels as if they have been betrayed by their leadership. Since that leadership is elected, some of that spills over onto the populace as a whole.
I would suggest, however, that it's not just the neocons who are responsible for this current mess, but the political class as a whole. Our current President's actions will be the final proof of this. He was elected, in part, due to the promise that our boys would come home. I rather think he will continue a garrison in places we already have a presence and attempt to expand that presence. The guys at the top may change, but policy is forever.Does that mean you are leaving the country? Where are you planning on moving to?
Fox News made you go to Iraq? Wow, they ARE the most powerful name in news!
Next time, change the channel.
I do thank you, and you did serve for me and for all other citizens. I'm surprised you didn't get a sense of that from that thing you read that for some reason you think no one else has read. I'm sorry you feel so dissillusioned but in time you may have a different perspective on it. At least I hope so. Thanks again.
This is horrific. If we look throughout history and the present, we can find many types of atrocities that are happening around us. How can humanity say that it is enlightened when these types of atrocities are allowed to happend?
Thank you for bringing to light this subject.I understand how you feel Trooper. To me, there is nothing more obnoxious than a religious person who feels they have the right to harass others with their own personal beliefs. It is kind of sad though, they don't realize how pathetically desperate they appear to others. Nutty too!
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