I don't agree with dutchman1951 .
The Atheists Agnostics are equally brainwashed as are the religionists; being humans all are equally susceptible to such tendencies. Who has given the Atheists Agnostics the certificate that they are open minded and the religionists are not. There is no general rule in this respect; everybody has to make a conscious effort to be open minded; when the
Atheists Agnostics resort to ridicule others and use foul language, one knows for sure that they are now victim of this “narrowness” disease; and hub-pages provide enough proof for that; you may agree or may not agree on this.
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
most atheist and agnostic have passed through phase-1 of being brain washed by religion and then come to phase-2..so atleast they understand how religion works on human brains and how it narrows down human thinking to single species and more specifically to one community and one book..my way stuffs which is manifestation of identity..religion is not bad thing though...it has really worked from humans and has carried forward human race ...it has helped in establishing social system and moral codes ...but now time of religion's my way only way is up...in today's globalized world when we are more awared , such claims are outdated...i personally dont have problem with religion as long as it keeps itself confined to personal zone...live and let live...yes i do have problem with religious people who turn themselves judges and declare who would go where?..if those people believe in god , why they themself become god and pass judgement?..ego?..lack of self belief..dont know...religion still has it role and can play positive part instead of power struggles which we see today or controlling people stuff...
They are not brainwashed by Religion; they are brainwashed by Atheism Agnosticism.
u didnt get me..there are very few born atheist or agnoist..most like you were religious at one point of time..at that time they too used to talk like you or other religious people do....
Everyone is born atheist. Your religion is something you were taught. No one's first words are praise allah or god. Do you actually believe that when you are born you believe in a higher power? if it were true that people are born religious and it is not a lerned process, we would have an equal didtribution of religious beliefs in every country. It seems a little odd that when you are born you appear to be born with the belief system your family or caretakers have. I being an atheist am the only one capable of being born again. I was born atheist as is everyone, tried to buy into the religion being forced down my throat, left religion for good and became a born again atheist. I would agree with the statement that atheists and agnostics are more open minded. We have thrown off the yoke that presupposes an outcome to life that can actually be altered by speaking to a god of one's own choosing. How can a Christian be open minded when the have a handy dandy book of answers to every question. I am unfamiliar with the Koran and can only assume it is similar in make up to the Bible considering it was written by the same primative, superstitious people. It is in fact being open minded when one looks beyond the accepted dogma and begins to consider other options. One does not become open minded by closing their mind to all other possible theories and ideas. It is not open mindedness that forces Christians to swear that the 6000 year old planet contains fossils that are millions of years old. It is not open mindedness that forces Christians to dismiss all evidence concerning the age of the planet or any of the dicrepancies in a book based on a few goat herders blogs from 2000 years ago.Does the original Koran still exist? The original copy of the Bible has been lost forever. This means that christians are placing all this faith in a book that might have had a last page that stated...This is work of fiction meant for the enjoyment of the reader. Please do not attempt to use this book as a guide for running the world as all hell will break loose and the idiots will start killing each other to prove killing each other is wrong.
I don't agree with you.
Everyone is born a believer in the Creator-God Allah YHWH; till he is confused and denies or is mislead by others.
You have just offered evidence that you're wrong, 100%.
See you're out makin' more friends there. I want to know about the 72 virgins. Why won't you tell me more about that. First, I wanna know where the heck anyone found seventy two of them, then I wanna know what happens in paradise on day 73! Can you get fresh virgins?
Resorting to foul language has nothing to do with brainwashing but suicide bombing,trolling,preaching has.
belief in something that has never been even close to proven is brainwashing. realising the truth is more like reality.
Non-belief in something that is ever-present, is equally or more bad; especially when there are no positive arguments to deny it. It is, in my opinion, close to brainwashing or more than that; realizing the truth is more like reality. It would be like a blind person denying Sun in the sky; insisting that he would believe the sun if he ever sees it.
The religionists and the irreligionists are equally prone to mistakes and blunders. Is it not a fact?
no it's not a fact. to have something drilled into your head since birth, to be brought to a placwe of worship whether you want to go or not, to be told that if you don't do as some book says you should will cause you to go to hell, that is brainwashing. to look at "god" and religion and to make a conscious choice to not believe is caleed free will. see the difference?
You think people have to be brainwashed not to believe in fairys?
... or have a particular belief to question a neurotic hate filled book?
Now that is what I call brainwashed.
They certainly do have to be brainwashed, equally as much as Hubbers
Earnest, so confused again :
who cares it's bloomin Saturday, lets just do something impossible, anything!
I hope you are enjoying the weekend.
I have a toddlers birthday party on today, (Sunday now 8am) about 10 of the little darlings to care for.
The twins turned 5 the other day and today is the party.
paarsurrey, Hello and greeting from an atheist.
I disagree with you that atheists are brain washed. The journey to atheism is a solitary one that is difficult for some to take. By opening a mind that was previously closed by religion, to all other possible explanations for every thing that has previously happened on this planet, the atheist seeks to leave behind the closed mindedness of his or her religious upbringing.
Refusal to consider a different possiblility than the one that has been preached to you since birth, is not an example of open mindedness, by any definition of the word. Not all atheists resort to name calling or insulting behavior and to state otherwise is being a little judmental isn't it?
I also don't see how a persons use of the entire language makes them a close minded person. That this might be language you disapprove of, it's use does not give evidence of the user being closed minded. Insensitive and rude behaivior perhaps, but not close minded.
Foul language has nothing to do with this arguement and is simply listed here in an effort to garner support from those who already agree with you. You are simply giving them another opurtunity to shake their heads in agreement while offering nothing that supports your arguement. Peace my friend and I say that as open mindedly as possible.
I am a peaceful atheist and it's a pleasure to meet you.
Who brainwashed me? I never believed any religious nonsense,
My parents took me to church. They believed. Their parents believed. When I heard the stories they told in church, I thought everyone was insane. It was obvious that none of this could possibly be true.
So who brainwashed me?
satan as mentioned in bible or quran...or rakshash as mentioned in hinduism... heard about einstein...even he too was brainwashed by satan ...
Einstein was brainwashed by Satan? You are assuming that Einstein was without religious belief. Just because he was a great scientist and researcher doesn't mean he wasn't religious. In fact there are quite a few Jews and Christians that have their belief in God but also see the value in science.
May be you are "naturally brainwashed"; if you are not then you should have your own "open" opinion on every issue.
well you are right..human race is naturally brainwashed towards spiritualism..religion tries to answer that....but none can give all answers..new religion pop up..cycle continues...
To me anyone who is obstinate is "prejudiced" and " brainwashed"; whether one is religionist or Atheist Agnostics, it does not matter.
Thanks. I don't understand. I thought you claimed religion and that you do believe there is a god or creator. How is this open minded? Wouldn't open minded beying to say that you don't know if there is a god or creator?
No, I never said that. I believe Quran/Islam/Muhammad as they are the most "open" ; the first chapter of the Quran in named "Al-Fatihah" or the "Open" fact/Truth/reality.
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
Thanks. Please explain. If you believe Quran/Islam/Muhammad as all true speaking of a god, doesn't this equal believing in a god? All of these make very specific claims, not claims with the point of leaving an open mind, claims to gain faith.
when your premise starts with firm believe that god exist..how can you call yourself open?..if you or your religion claims to be open..it must start with whether god exist or doesnot exist..then there should be points for both which can be evaluated and debated...suppose then conclusion comes that god does exist...then comes if god exist...does he intefere in system or did he creat auto system..then again points on both for evaluation and so on...
I think you are 110% spot on. The truth of I don't know isn't easy to accept for many.
I don't agree with you. The fact/truth/reality has to be firm; nevertheless it is open. It is not a confusion or doubtful point; so it has to be like that. The next chapter of Quran mentions this point :
[2:3] This is a perfect Book; there is no doubt in it; it is a guidance for the righteous,
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … r.php?ch=2
When it is a reality/fact or Truth; why should it waver? Don’t you think fact/reality/Truth are “Open”?
When there is a perfect book like Quran; why should it take the standpoint of being an imperfect one?
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
truth is different and claims of something being true is different...claims have to be debated with possibility that it can be false or true..premise should be quran was written some thousands of years ago..now let us see whether it is true or false..then one needs to evaluate every line test with science and other knowledge and then come to conclusion...quran is claim..same like gita or veda or torah or bible...just because some mortal said something thousand of years ago and his group believed him..does it make that true..but if what he says is as per what scientifically is proven by testing it physically then it is true..gravitational doesnot exist because newton said so and some bunch of people believed him..it exist because we can see its effects physically...quran or bible doesnot become truth because you says so , neither it becomes false because i say so..it has to pass through scientific test ..till then it is debatable...
Quran does not mention claims only; it mentions the claims together with brilliant arguments; that is its dynamic and unique characteristic; unmatched and absolute.
okie..let us debate on those arguments then..then we would conclude how brilliant or non brilliant they are..i understand you are totally sold out to quran and so are biased ..but my friend if quran or bible or gita was really true they would have been excepted world over...you dont need to sell gravitational force or magnetic force ...none would debate on that..all would except it...you dont need to debate on death...every one accepts it..one doesnot need to debate on oxygen..every one accepts it...if truth needs selling..we must understand that something is missing...i know you wont agree to this..your open mind is limited to quran only...and it is fine ...
Thanks. If something is perfect, it shouldn't need an open mind. Perfect needs nothing. Perfect believes it has all the answers. Perfect is biased and closed to only believing what is believed as perfect.
how is the quaran perfect ? according to muslims themselves, the extremists misunderstand what it says and that is the reason they use violence to get their message across. i would say that the quaran is a frightening book that is easily usable as a way to control others.
i am gord , the peaceful athiest.
the irony here is that you are using a book written by man and stating that it is perfect but yet at the same time many muslim followers use this same book, the same words and kill people over it. yup perfect.
Keeping female face in burqa is very open minded concept in islam.
Not tolerating other religion is also open minded as per muhammad ?
well he starts his open minded debate with "god is there" period premise...now how can any one discuss further if there is no scope of debate..."god is there , muhammad was prophet , quran is perfect...now we are open" ..how is that for being open minded...
That is the problem with every theist. They assume god exist and keep on believing in stories written in scriptures. Believing in stories without empirical evidence isn't open mind. But as you said they're firm on their religious belief and not ready to accept empirical evidence.
Refuting facts with examples like can you see the wind, who created you,who created this lovely uniuerse, who put water in coconut,who made arch-angel micheal to protect you, who made yankees lose in final match etc. is like living in denial.
The same is equally the problem with Atheists Agnostics; being humans sometimes with omission or comission, they won't listen to the reason. They are alos human beings; I do understand.
i am all ears to listen with reason but you are being unreasonable ...you are putting three conditions which are assumption..now if you are open than we can debate...but you are closed..you declare quran is perfect..now how can i debate when you have already reached a conclusion?...now is it your reasoning ability which makes you think that god exist as stated in quran or your faith?..
I remove all the conditions. You are open to give any brilliant reasons you have or anyother person who has them. It is open to everybody here.
I have always discussed; but when one resort to rididule or to foul language; then there is no point to repons. I don't become personal.
It is an absolute fact that Quran is perfect as it is authored by the Creator- God Allah YHWH; the same way as He has created the Universe. If the Universe is perfect; so should be the Word Revealed.
Why should I deny the perfectness of Quran? Any good reason; there is none.
if universe would have been perfect we wont have even existed..do you know that..it was imperfection which created cluster of stars and paved way for planets....
coming to religious books imperfection there are many..first is date of earth..second is creation theory..third is no mention of important species..fourth is lack of mention of homo series...and i can go on and on and on...you are not open to research about carbon dating, you are not open to take into account fossils..you dont take into account dinosaurs forget home erectus...you dont take into account temple as old as 12k....you talk about adam...abhraham..moses..jesus..muhammad but dont believe when scientist come up with proves that earth is 4 billion year old..when they come with out of africa theory showing series of fossils...you reject it because it comes from humans but you accept something which claims to be divine...you selectively use science for your daily life but reject them when it counters your faith..and you call yourself open minded...if you are really open minded ..then do study each and every religious book as well as what science says..weigh them with sheer logic and rationalism...then come with valid conclusion as to why you say quran is perfect..how can you say one book is perfect without even studying all books which includes scientific book...if you can't do that..drop the claim of being open minded and state i believe because i believe..i have no objection to that...
Subjective fact- quran is a perèct book. Only islamics think so and they can't prove it. they can?
Quran is a perfect book; prove it wrong, anybody, with brilliant argument. Can anyone?
LOL. listen to reason ? okay, lets dance. Have you ever bother to give us empirical evidence sirji ?
What is atheism agnosticism? If someone states there is no god or creator, they are atheist. If they state they don't know, they are agnostic. If they state there is a god or creator, they are religious. I agree that atheists and religious are close minded for deciding on faith without evidence to believe one way or the other.
Can you prove it is right? Please do so.
Can one prove it is wrong? Please do it.
you ignore message when given points and then talk about whether one can prove it right or wrong...first give answers to what i have asked..i gave you four simple , scientifically proven and globally accepted things..i hope you believe in homo erectus..if not i can show you pics of that and email you documents for that..i hope you believe in dinosaur too...
In other words, you can't prove it right, so there is no need to prove it wrong.
Not only that but they are obsessed with being right! and talk about christians cramming their religion down everyones throats, the christian can't even ask a question and the atheists are all over it, rudely and super dogmatically expounding their doctrine or criticism, man, they are insane!. To be atheist is to be a pot calling the kettle black! and the biggest hypocrite and a lousy debater and a bunch of other things that would indeed be comprehended as some insane scare tactic. They totally embarrass themselves to the max. unbelievable and then they blame the chrisitan for doing exactly what they do and they do it worse. omg!
Woah! gimme a christian anyday!!
Simply the notion that I could be wrong; does not prove me wrong. If I am wrong, then please prove me wrong; unless you do it; I will remain right with the grace of the Creator-God Allah YHWH.
Bring out any brilliant argument, please
The Creator-God Allah YHWH exist and He has sent Word of Revelation through Muhammad, the Seal of the Messengers Prophets, his perfect Word; I mean Quran. And it is a fact; one may deny it; no compulsion; but the fact remains the fact.
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
hey paar..remember me?...if yes..please answer my questions instead of playing merry go round and speaking like closed minded person in 'fact is fact' theme..we are no more in school my friend..my daddy strongest has passed our age..we have tangible , viewable , physical proofs in terms of fossils , carbon dating , archeological evidences about homo erectus , home sapiens...humans took 0.2 million years to reach to 2010...why your book is silent on that?..and why god didnt evolve humans faster in 4 billion year old earth?
Unless you can show you're right, there is no point in anyone entertaining your challenge to show you are wrong.
Stating you are right does not make you right.
By making that statement, you not only show a closed mind to alternatives, you confuse the presentation of alternatives with the obsession of being right.
Prove it. Else it is your delusion. Deny your own delusion, no compulsion. But the fact remains about delusion of troll
I just got bored this weekend, so here we go:
Contradictions in Quran
Contradiction is in the quotes. Dust or clay ? Or both ? oh wait there is water as well. Clay, sounding clay, dust or water - what is in accordance with the Quran? The Quran seems to be pretty vague. There actually are some scientists that believe that short RNA molecules could have formed within clay. They doesn't say if it was "sounding clay" or just ordinary clay. And they do not suggest that clay in any way was an ingredient - it was more like a good environment. But there are many other interesting theories too. Here's the short version of how science look at the Origin of Life:
Elements in the human body? Well, the Quran suggests clay, sounding clay, water and dust depending on which verse you choose to read. Here's a list of the most common elements in our bodies:
Notice that clay, sounding clay and dust were not there - so the Quran had four guesses and was only partially right - that is if you have a forgiving nature. There's a lot of water in the human body, but water is not classified as an element anymore. That was a long time ago.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_ … _in_Greece
http://chemistry.about.com/cs/howthings … ements.htm
Go ahead Paar. Refute this ;)If you don't then from now on i'll forward you to this posts link when you keep on trolling about quran being book of god.
A lot of interesting argument here. I wonder, though, paarsurrey, why you don't write about your religion and the Taliban and the religious fervor of some Muslims to kill Americans and others and to the extreme to even kill themselves. It would be interesting to have some Muslim points of view and teachings in this area.
Also, I invite you to read my blog "The Existence Of GodII".
Quran has not claimed to be a text book of Science; it is for the guidance of humans in the ethical, moral and spiritual realms. Quran uses all parts of speech to convey its teachings.
Making from clay is that humans could be molded, by nature, into different forms; that is man is adaptable, evolutionary and progressive. Man could be virtuous like angels, if man does good acts or evil like Satan, if he does bad deeds. This way man is made of clay.
Quran is for guidance of the humans; it is mentioned in the very beginning of the Quran:
[2:3] This is a perfect Book; there is no doubt in it; it is a guidance for the righteous,
[2:4] Who believe in the unseen and observe Prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;
[2:5] And who believe in that which has been revealed to thee, and that which was revealed before thee, and they have firm faith in what is yet to come.
[2:6] It is they who follow the guidance of their Lord and it is they who shall prosper.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … r.php?ch=2
I don't intend to control your actions; you could do as you like ; enjoy your free will.
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
Stump Parrish wrote ...
Everyone is born atheist. Your religion is something you were taught. No one's first words are praise allah or god. Do you actually believe that when you are born you believe in a higher power?
I wish that you could see how that sounds. At the time of your birth the air that you breathed was a higher power than you. The source of your nutrition was a higher power than yourself,
It is society and environment that teaches you all things.
You were born with needs that you could not fulfill.
You knew this. When you were born your Moms tit was as a god to you. Then you learned to substitute other things for her tit.
We were born with needs that we could not fulfill on our own.
We die in that same condition whether you know it or not,
We complicate matters when we begin to think in the abstract.
As you will learn, the pleasure will be short lived!
Here we go again:
You said :
Then you post this
Do you understand you got badly beaten in terms contradiction in quran ? Or you lack intelligent reasoning skills as per explained in quran ?
Really ? I don't buy word-salad, sir ji. Empirical evidence ?
Anyone can be brainwashed. A non-belief however can't really be showing signs of such a thing.brainwashing. A belief based on fact that can be examined and proved over and over again is hardly brainwashing. As for agnostics, the great fence sitters, since they haven't made up their minds they can't possibly be considered brainwashed until they do.
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