I still don't get what all the fuss is about..

1. 66

   aka-djposted 13 years ago

   What do I mean?
   If all the atheists here are correct, and there is
   No God
   "    Heaven
   "    Eternity
   "    Spirit   world/realm
   "    No afterlife etc
   
   and we all are evolved animals who live for the here and now,
   
   why bother refuting religion or any other topic related to it? It's just the way "natural selection" and mutation took us as a species.
   If it causes wars, hatred, poverty, environmental destruction, or any other ILL, "who cares"???
   
   You are born, you live and you die! No purpose. No future. No hope. Nothing.
   
   Surely you guys should be among THE MOST TOLERANT of all, because "that's just the way it IS".
   
   Please explain.

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      Aya Katzposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      The search for the truth requires that we keep an open mind as to what the truth might be. There are many different kinds of immortality. Parents win theirs by bringing children up to replace them. Darwin won his own form of immortality when he published The Descent of Man.

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   2. 60

      alqxposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Having meaning in life does not have to involve an afterlife. Must something be permanent for it to have value?
      
      Is it not the dying and temporary that are cherished most? Endangered animals are such a case: because they are dying off, they are treasured more. Certainly, it's because things do not last and so they should be valued more.
      
      It's precisely because we know life is temporary, that we only have one life, that we treasure it. It is why be bother to put in effort to make a difference, to live a worthy life, to fight for our beliefs, to hone or abilities in art, science, music etc.
      
      Now, when we look at the influence that religion has and how religions can wield so much power, surely we have to resist it. We have our rights to defend.
      
      What if they impose their religion on us? The dominant religions preach that 'Evangelism' or 'Spreading the Word' is the most important thing to do to honour 'God'. We see religious people who genuinely feel guilty when they are unable to convert others to their religion, being further compelled to do so.
      
      What if they question our lack of belief and so discriminate us? The word 'atheist' already reeks of some negative connotations, and we have to protect our image and defend our 'lack of belief'.

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   3. 57

      Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Ah. You do not understand why atheists are such good, loving people who want to look after the planet? Because they want to be and choose to be so. This is the only life we have and you religionists are always causing strife , ill will and wars. Because you cannot understand morals and ethics.
      
      We are trying to teach you how to do that in order that we all enjoy this one life as much as possible and leave our offspring a good life also - that is our purpose.
      
      I see it makes you very angry, but I don't know what to do about that - you seem unwilling or unable to understand that atheists are better than you because we can develop morals and ethics using reason. Unlike you.

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      1. 70

         aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Wow, you have a hard task to do, especially as there are only 2.5% of atheists in the world, no wonder folk keep killing each other... OH, wait a minute, Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao Zedong, they were all in your minority.... maybe we'd best fear those pesky atheists, they seem to breed extremely violent folk who kill millions!
         
         Good job they don't manage to evangelise folk.
         
         Edit: and just checking, between them they hold the world record, having disposed of about 75 million folk during their atheist reigns.
         
         Yep, Atheists = Peace and Love!

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            alqxposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            You say that 2.5% of people are atheists. Are you sure? Many people who in fact are atheist do not declare so in fear of being discriminated. They could sometimes lose the approval of friends and families.
            
            Just because you find a few people who do evil and are atheists doesn't mean that atheism is the cause of evil. I could also do the same and observe religious people doing evil and say that religion causes evil. It's just like observing a few people winning the lottery and saying, 'Hey, the lottery sure is profitable!'.
            
            The case you have to build is, if there a significant proportion of atheists that actually actively do more harm as compared to religious people, and if so, the underlying reasons beneath it.
            
            Atheists do not have religious beliefs which would impair their reasoning, unlike Religious people, who cannot resort to reason when a line of thought goes against their faith. It is this form of irrational moral absolutism I am against. If you refer to atheists who commit evil because of die-hard beliefs and who cannot be reasoned with, then sure, I do not like them either.
            
            The point is, atheists, without the religious belief that comes with absolute faith are one step away from moral absolutism, and one step towards reason.
            
            Atheism is not the cause of peace and love. Atheism signifies one step towards reason. And the question asked in this thread is how, rather than why, an atheist is capable of meaning in life. And I have answered that in my post above.

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         2. 61

            dutchman1951posted 13 years agoin reply to this

            aquasilver, you can say same for fun loving christians also:
            Winston Churchill, Bush senior and Junior, Nixon, T. Rosevelt, to name a few of the other 2.5%-ers...

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            1. 70

               aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               But none of them did it to their OWN people in order to remove dissidents, i.e. folk who were not raving mass murderers and disagreed with their dubious ways of reducing population.
               
               Besides, were those named REALLY Christians?
               
               Sometimes a man who is a true believer may ascend to power, but whether he can stay a true believer when dealing in the world at such a level, and having to make decisions advised by secular power brokers.... nahhh he would be swallowed up and spat out in bubbles if he tried to rule as Christ dictates.
               
               Or killed.

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      2. 66

         aka-djposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         @ Mark.
         
         I'm sure you'e heard the phrase "whenever you assume, you make an ass of u & me". You have made a right ass of yourself here. Why, you may ask?
         
         You assume that I am (very) angry. I am not.
         
         I am also glad to see you finally admit to your superiority over me.
         
         That's what you would call condescending, NO? (A word you use very often!!!)
         
         Keep rationalising. It will continue to  strengthen your resolve and your error.

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   4. 60

      h.a.borcichposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      
      
      I believe in tolerance and feel I demonstrate that clearly. I read threads of other religions, but I do not jump in creating a war and casting insults. I am tolerant that all must find their path their own way.
      I do participate in the christian threads as I am a christian trying to discuss christian living with other christians. It becomes wars when other who don't believe hijack the thread, cast insults and make it a war. We are fighting for the right to talk about it in a thread with each other.
      When any one group feels they must squelch and devastate another group of people it will cause wars. The nonbelievers do claim they are compelled to get involved. Personally I have no problem with people being on different paths of spirituality or faith than I. I don't get what the compulsion to silence any group is.

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      1. 60

         alqxposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         This thread was, right from the start, never meant for believers only. It was presented as an opportunity for atheists to justify themselves. For atheists to explain how they can have a meaning in life without religion and the spirituality, afterlife etc. that it makes one believe in.
         
         It is difficult to remain silent. Atheists tend to think of our freedom from faith as a license to comment on religion. (Been there, done that, then done something else.)
         
         Many of us have once been believers but broken from our faith. To myself, it was a liberating feeling and my life has changed for the better ever since. When I was still clinging on to belief, there was a ceiling to my thoughts, because my religious belief required certain assumptions that limited my reasoning capabilities.
         
         People like me have tasted what it's like to be free from religion, and we have good reasons to have made that decision. Which is why we can't resist trying to share our thoughts on the dubiousness of religion.

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         1. 60

            h.a.borcichposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            
            
            I had no doubt this was not a christian only thread. I participated as I have wanted to xpress that I think everyone - including atheists, should have the freedom to follow their own paths of whatever. I was supportive of rights for all. Did you read it as anything else?
            As for why you try to share what you believe...I think everyone who feels they hasve found something good wants to share it with good intentions

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      2. 60

         Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         I agree with you with you all the way h.a.borcich. Smile

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   5. 72

      Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      And what makes YOU think there is no purpose to someone's life no god existed?
      
      And, no future? Our futures we write as we live.
      
      And, no hope? I have hope that nut cases don't destroy the rest of the planet.
      
      And, nothing? It's obvious you have a limited mind and precisely the reason for your belief in a higher power.
      Again, your limited mind holds you from even understanding your own life.
      
      What's to explain? Tolerance is something your preach and are taught via your religious teachings. Yet, cannot hold your own tongue. Nice of you to learn from your own teachings?
      
      Go back to your bible and read some more, apparently you're not finished reading yet. Better yet, try living within the doctrines of your religious teachings. If you actually used your will power and tried to live in the doctrine, then you would learn how fake they actually are.
      
      Then the self-realization of your god would disappear.
      
      So please....

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   6. 72

      getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      If believers could just keep their absurd delusions to themselves, then there would be more toleration.  But I can't seem to go one day without some delusional believer mentioning his beliefs in some imaginary illogical nonsense.
      
      BTW, you know nothing about what motivates non-believers.  Your assumption that we should just give in to despair is extremely narrow-minded and ludicrous.

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      1. 60

         h.a.borcichposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         
         
         Could it be that he is wanting to know why nonbelievers seem unable to recognize believers as equals entitled to the same rights nonbelievers desire?

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         1. 72

            getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            
            
            No, that is not his point.  His aim is to portray nonbelievers as hopeless.  And since he sees them as hopeless, he implies that anything should be accepted by them. 
            
            If he requires a belief in an illogical book in order to have hope, then he has some serious psychosis.  Morals and hope have nothing to do with the bible. But it seems that no one can convince you of that fact.
            
            We need hope in order to live "THIS LIFE"
            
            Why should one have no hope for this life, only because he doesn't believe in an afterlife?

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            1. 60

               h.a.borcichposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               
               
                 You sound frustrated. He isn't telling you to have no hope, he is saying it as he sees it. He asked questions hoping to understand why you are so upset others have hope in an afterlife. Personally, I think trying to understand the dynamics of nonbelievers is futile.
                 Asking a nonbeliever why they think as they do results in demands for "empirical proof". Telling a nonbeliever to believe however they want to results in being called names. Telling a nonbeliever what the believer perceives as truth is considered brainwashing. For a believer to share with other believers what they believe is fodder for nonbelievers and a cry to stop the aggression. Right here and right now the war ammounts to the believers refusal to be silenced.
               I see the nonbelievers being incredibly hostile, unrealistic and extremely emotional about that which they consider imagination. Actually, it is psychotic

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               1. 72

                  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  
                  
                  For an adult to hold such absurd childish beliefs is extremely disturbing, but you can't perceive how disturbing this is.  Why?
                  
                  Through your indoctrination, you have bought into an absurd fraudulent premise, that you are now prepared to defend to the death. THIS IS DISTURBING, especially since I believe you are intelligent otherwise. 
                  
                  We are simply trying to appeal to your intellect.  In fact, it gets emotional when we start to plead with your intellect, just to have our attempts thwarted by this foolish belief.
                  
                  Then you plead for tolerance.  Ok, we will have to tread lightly, because the severity of your delusion must be respected. 
                  
                  I respect the fact that you are afflicted.  But I don't respect your beliefs or the charlatans who devised them.

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                     h.a.borcichposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     
                     
                     My right to my beliefs are the same rights you have to your beliefs, however misguided your beliefs may be. Somehow your false sense of superiority compels you to be agressive which is very disturbing. I am sure you are intelligent, but your lack of tolerance is obvious as is your inability to practice what you preach. Getting over yourself is possible. You have the choice to realize all people are equal. Are you up to it?

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   7. 0

      kimberlyslyricsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      

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2. 61

   Medora Trevilianposted 13 years ago

   Where there is life there is hope. Every living being thrives on hope and dies when hope dies.
   
   And why do we fight? Because life feeds on life, and to live we must eat. The hope for every living creature is to eat today so that he may live tomorrow. There is no shame in that, but neither is it peace. Peace is death.
   
   It is from hope that all art springs. It is for life that all love flows. It is from the thirst for life that all knowledge is discovered.

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      zampanoposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I love it. Thank you.
      This is about the best that can be said on these matters.

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3. 79

   skyfireposted 13 years ago

   How can we be tolerant if religion is getting into educational system, science by playing with quotes and emotional arguments ? Tolerance comes from rational thinking which theists lack because they don't draw the line between imagination and the need for empirical evidence when it comes to holding onto facts.
   
   Look at whole forums, there are bible quote spammers here who preach in such way that as if it's fact. Then run away when we ask for empirical evidence. Their only source of evidence is - "it's said in the books hence it is true". You want us to tolerance this crap ?

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   1. 70

      aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      From the Miriam Webster online dictionary empirical means:
      
      1 : originating in or based on observation or experience
      2 : relying on experience or observation alone often without due regard for system and theory
      3 : capable of being verified or disproved by observation or experiment
      
      AND -
      
      From a Psychology dictionary : Derived from naturalistic observation of from experimental procedures.
      Empirical evidence is evidence from observations. From my understanding it can be through naturalistic observation (the in depth observation of a phenomenon in its natural setting) or Experimental (maniplulating an independent variable to observe its effects on a dependant variable). Experimental evidence is much more reliable as naturalistic observations are vulnerable to researcher bias.
      
      Now EVERY believer must first have an EXPERIENCE of Christ and the Holy Spirit, they then OBSERVE the changes in their life and the development of a spiritual existence previously denied them.
      
      NO believer needs a scientist to approve of their relationship with God, but somehow you lot witter on about needing proof.
      
      You will get your proof, when you die.

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4. 79

   skyfireposted 13 years ago

   Ever heard of "Appeal to popularity fallacy" ? Bet ya never.

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      aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      ...and I suppose you refute those figures?

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         skyfireposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Why not ?
         
         Guy who gets his backside screwed on cross is going to be a savior ?- is what if these billion are people thinking then surely i do refute such fantasies of theists.

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            aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            As usual, so tied up in your obsession that you miss the point, never mind, compulsive obsessives will always only focus on their obsessions.

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            1. 79

               skyfireposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Thanks for attack.
               
               But who's saying ? a christian quote spammer who fails to give proof yet persist on delusion of christ

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   2. 81

      Don Wposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Stating that 75 million people have been killed by non-theist leaders is not an 'appeal to popularity'. That fallacy relates to the approval of the majority. If it was said that 85% of people accept non-theists leaders have killed more than theist leaders, therefore it must be true, that would be an appeal to popularity. Stating X is greater than Y as support for your argument is only an appeal to popularity if X actually relates to popularity, which in this case it does not (unless you consider number of murders committed as some aspect of popularity).
      
      So you have committed the incorrect appeal to fallacy, fallacy. Heard of it? Probably not, because I just invented it to describe what you've done. What fun!

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5. 79

   skyfireposted 13 years ago

   Yet not a single experimental proof that validates. Rant on
   
   
   Says you.
   
   And this is not applied to every religious person. Some just believe because they're brainwashed by parents, pastor, quote spammers and extremists.
   
   
   
   That's your delusion. Proved my point once again how you run away from empirical evidence.
   
   
   Yet another assumption. Can you prove that every person who dies realizes your deluded assumptions ? Come on, try to prove it.

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      h.a.borcichposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Sure looks like the writing of "Q"

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      1. 70

         aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Hi, H.A.... Yep, now I come to think about it you are right!
         
         Sock puppets of the world unite!

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            aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Nope, wrong there he she or it seems to exist... apologies!

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      2. 79

         skyfireposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         
         
         If you take this guess to Hubpages moderators then you'll get clear view, but just for your information here we go:-
         
         1. I'm currently logged in from India.
         2. I have only one more account for niche hubs.
         3. I don't have another account for forum posting.
         4. Go Figure if i'm Q.

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         1. 82

            earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Well it's hard not to imagine conspiracies as a religionist ya know.
            All the old threads have dozens of these. I am Mark apparently to give you one example..... although my IP is Australian and his is French!
            Maybe Mark has a holy spirit?

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6. 66

   aka-djposted 13 years ago

   Point 1
   I am glad all you atheist (who responded) choose to be peaceful, loving moral and highly intelligent beings. My question seeks to steer you (all) into the reason why your way is superior, and therefore intolerant of the supernatural (God et.al.)
   
   If morals come from the individual, and the individual holds the view it is OK to do anything that is collectively rejected, your system ought to tolerate that. Indeed applaud that. As an example, all criminals jailed as we speak, are totally innocent because their moral standard allows them the "freedom" to do their thing. Why can't they?
   
   You are free to disregard any notion of God, yet we are not afforded the same freedom to assert Him. (Not that He needs my assertion).
   
   Point 2
   How many of you are HONEST enough to admit, (indeed validate) the AWESOME influence "religion" has had on society, that we all enjoy today. As Aquasilver said, all the despot world leaders, (read that as genocidal insane mad men) were from your side of the line. And, again, based on evolutionary principles, which most of you hold so dear, allows for them to do it. NO PROBLEM.
   
   Finally, let me restate my proposition, (for all you worshippers of rationality and reason). I am from the "evolutionary line of believing homosapiens" as opposed to you who are from the non-believing line. We should have the same freedom to believe as you have to not believe.
   
   Why don't you do that?   

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7. 75

   Diane Insideposted 13 years ago

   This is ridiculous not one person has changed their mind or views on their beliefs for what is said in one of these so called "religious" forums.
   
   So why bother.

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8. 60

   h.a.borcichposted 13 years ago

   Just for the record, there is only one belief I am hoping to spread. It is the belief that we are all equal period.

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      Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Thank you ha.borcich for sharing that h.a.borcich.

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      exorterposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Amen h.a.borcich, I wish more folk would see things that way, it would be a more peaceful world

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9. 82

   earnestshubposted 13 years ago

   A person who is guided by God will never be misguided by anyone.
   -- Osama Bin Laden

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      exorterposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      even the devil will say things like that and the fact you found that proves it

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         earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Isn't Bin Laden guided by the right fairy then?

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            exorterposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            nope, there is only one true God, HE is love

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         2. 60

            h.a.borcichposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            
            
            Do you consider Bin Laden sane? You can state with certainty that a christian is psychotic, but think Bin Laden utters words of wisdom? Blah.

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         skyfireposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         That's poor argument. How do you know traits of devil ?

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            exorterposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            read the Bible
            DUH

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               exorterposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               I should not have added the DUH, But the Bible tells you about the devil,
               How the world will ridicule believers for sticking to their faith.

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                  skyfireposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Looks like believers insurance with excuse of devil's name.

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               skyfireposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               so bible is the testimony of devil ? i thought you people claim it word of god. why the traits of satan are encoded in book of god ? extra ink ? timepass ? or to get excuse against shortcoming of bible requires refute with name of devil ? duh.

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                  exorterposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  try studying the Bible and you may learn something

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                     getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death.  (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
                     
                     They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.  (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
                     
                     It looks like the bible supports the nonbelievers case.
                     What kind of blind sycophant would worship a bloodthirsty beast like your bible describes?

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                     skyfireposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     really ?

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10. 82

    earnestshubposted 13 years ago

    Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
    Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
    Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
    Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
    -- (Epicurus)

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       exorterposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       you know better than that

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11. 72

    getitriteposted 13 years ago

    These are some things I learned while reading the bible:
    
    1.  The Earth was created before the Sun
    2.  A Whale is a Fish
    3.  Snakes can talk
    4.  A woman can turn into a pillar of salt
    5.  A burning bush can disguise itself as God...and speak
    6.  A loving God killed millions of the people he loved.
    7.  The Sun was created on the third day?
    
    ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT WISDOM.

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       h.a.borcichposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Keep reading...you haven't grasped the good news yet

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          getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          
          
          OK
          
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQ-XCn75uZA

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       Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Interesting. Even Grimms didn't print anything so absurd.

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12. 63

    pisean282311posted 13 years ago

    i disagree with topic starter...when one comes to understanding that there is no god , he/she becomes far more responsible about how he/she wants to direct human race...onus is on us and not on some body else which even believers wont see in his/her life time...so we are in charge ..now there is choice whether to act in positive manner or negative manner...so if one does what is said as good for human race , it is not for getting saved or heaven or anything..it is because one wants to do that thing...

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       Medora Trevilianposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Pisean, I quite agree. Virtue is its own reward.

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13. 81

    psycheskinnerposted 13 years ago

    Because some people are only good to get into heaven or out of fear of good, they don't understand being good for other reasons.  Likewise they may not understand getting a sense of purpose from other places.  It is just a failure of imagination.

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