Would religion still exist if you couldn't lie?

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   Stevennix2001posted 14 years ago

   Has anyone ever seen the film, "Invention of Lying?"  it's a funny movie. it essentially takes place in a world where mankind never evolved to be able to lie at all.  hence, there's no such thing as flattery or even compliments.  where like if you asked someone does this outfit make me look fat, then the person would say yes it does.  Or if you saw a baby and you thought she/he was ugly, then you'd say he/she looked ugly, as you couldn't lie.  If you were on a date, a person would flat out tell you if you were getting some or not.  Heck, they wouldn't even hesitate to call you a loser if they saw you that way, as there's no such thing as flattery in this insipid world of brutally honest truth.  If someone was in pain or dying, you wouldn't be able to console them without being brutally honest with them about everything. 
   
   You get the picture of what kind of world this film takes place in now?  anyways, the main character in this movie somehow evolves to become the first person ever to be able to lie.  hence, he invents religion, in the film.  what i would like to ask you all is this. if humanity never evolved to tell any lies, then would religion still exist?  please state valid arguments to support your case.

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      stoneyyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      "what i would like to ask you all is this. if humanity never evolved to tell any lies, then would religion still exist?  please state valid arguments to support your case."
      
      I would indicate superstition would still exist.  Why?  Because truth told can be in error.
      
      Example: Columbine High School and Cassie Bernal.  It was widely said she was shot after she wouldn't give up her faith in God.  In the press, she was dang near Canonized.  Much later it was determined she was not the one who was so questioned.
      
      I'm sure there are still people who aren't aware of the facts of the matter.  I'm sure some are aware of the facts yet preach the same as it provides them comfort.

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         exorterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         was you there?

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      dutchman1951posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Religion would be gone, yes
      however God- would still be here. There is a difference

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         Stevennix2001posted 14 years agoin reply to this

         hmm..you make a good point there.

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         Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Considering no one has ever shown gods to exist, that claim is moot. The only thing we can be certain about existing is the religion itself.

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            Stevennix2001posted 14 years agoin reply to this

            thats an interesting perspective, so i take it your saying that if we couldn't lie or even imagine things anymore at all, then there would be no more religion or a belief in god, right?

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               Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Not really. I merely pointed out that despite the fact that religions do exist, the gods that are claimed to exist have never been shown to exist.
               
               So, without the gods, all we know is that the religions themselves, the beliefs, the rituals, etc. do in fact exist.
               
               Small dollops of critical thinking will easily make the beliefs vanish, and along with that the religions and the rituals themselves would disappear.
               
               Just like they've disappeared in the past. How many actually believe that Zeus or Thor are not myths?

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                  stoneyyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  Those deity/deities of other individuals are myths while personal one(s) are fact.
                  
                  
                  Manufacturer deity constructs like the Abrahamic versions self-destruct on their own due to many different factors.

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            dutchman1951posted 14 years agoin reply to this

            gods, as in Greek belief, did not exhist Bleeze!
            
            and science is still searching for agreement on the Universe, as it does not contain the compound sugars needed to re-produce life, and scientests are still searching for God as in no physical evidence. so the verdict is out still,.
            
            we are waiting, as it has been for millions of years so far. it is not and will never be moot, because nothing is proven. I would say non agreement would be a more appropiate description, maybe. 

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               alternate poetposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               I wonder whether you would still be waiting so patiently by the side of the road for a number 999 bus that somebody once told you existed but it has never appeared in all the time humanity has been watching the world go by.  You would call such a person a fool, or a bum, or homeless and maybe give him a dime and contact the county mental health dept.

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                  dutchman1951posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  I am not waiting, I am searching for it, studying and going on the digs. Try-ing to see for myself. Yemen next year and you are welcome to join.
                  
                  and by the way what are you doing? besides rambling in virtual knowledge I mean!
                  
                  You, especially- would say that about handing a person a dime and flipping them off as a fool. It's expected, but you will be very embarrassed when you hand that dime to a good man as that very bus pulls up and he hands it back as you board in-front of him because you do not have the fare to go anywhere!
                  
                  and it will happen because of your arrogance of self, you will guarantee it Because In time..?  Self serviced pride goes before a fall.
                  
                  And I am no fool Poet
                  
                  I am trying, searching, and I don't remember you being on the plane when we left this past summer? 
                  
                  I am not saying he (God) is real here, I am saying we are searching, and so far are fnding pre-historic man, evolving into Mid-Eastern Man and nothing more, but the search is just starting. Its a half full, not- half empty glass. Some real writings, and facts do exhist.
                  
                  I would never say never.  But from what I have seen? I would say possible.

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                     alternate poetposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     You are making the same mistake as smost religious people, and people 'searching' for on - my post is clearly a metaphor and you are clearly identified in my example as 'you'. Yet you identify yourself with the fool that I metaphorically met 'you' with.
                     
                     Disputing religious belief does not make me arrogant or prideful - just because it does not agree with your arrogance and pride.
                     
                     In my 'other' time I am a teacher and writer. I see life through the lens of Critical Theory and question everything, including my own ideas and beliefs, what remains of them. It is admirable that you go in search of some reality to ground your beliefs in but I doubt you will find any.
                     
                     I now have this vision of you as an aged Indiana Jones on an archaeological tour bus singing hymns to pass the time
                     
                     In my Marine Engineering days I won a contract to repair a harbour in the Yemen.  On the day I was in London to sign with the Yemeni Minister war broke out!  The harbour ended up being the seaward side of the new border between the two halves and we never got to fix it.  If this is where you are landing I would not stand too close to the edge of the harbour wall if I were you because I know there is nothing underneath many parts of it to hold it up

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                        dutchman1951posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        noooo lol, 59, semi retierd, back at school for myself, having fun with it. Refuse to age or stop. Physical Anthropology - Anchient History. Just starting back writing and researching.
                        
                        post 30 year career working for CIA contractor on 5 contenants, World Bank kinda-stuff. Went right out of school from Univ. of  Tex.  no Indiana Jones at all.....Just love travel, exploring and diging for artifacts, doing the detective work, putting the pieces togeather.
                        
                        I see the mistake you refference, you are correct, Takes a bit to shake the brainwashing. Not much belief left either, but a deep Interest in Anthro and early civilization, hoping to find a few answers.
                        
                        So far it looks like a Myth, Jesus as we know him did not exhist.
                        
                        I will remember that dock, good tip, thank you.

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                           alternate poetposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                           I would not say this to a book thumper but I consider that all the ancient texts contain something of the thinking of their day. It is possible to see early philosophy, references to the change from hunter/gatherer to agriculture, bronze age references etc etc.  I don't discount the information that may be in the books, just the conclusions that come from centuries of indoctrination and grow your own domination cults.
                           
                           I wish you well in the Yemen, I hope you find interesting stuff and look forward to hearing about it.

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                              stoneyyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                              Those tomes can shed a good view of societal mores, possibly some history, and general thought.
                              
                              The Bible has been edited, re-edited, items added and removed, changed due to politics of the times and more.
                              
                              No original version has ever been found.
                              
                              The Bible is, once again, being reworked.  IIRC, this time its by Phyliss Schaffley's son who heads up Conservopedia.

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                           stoneyyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                           Way cool!  What a wealth of experiences.  And you continue to expand your horizons.  Archaeological digs is quite the treasure hunt.  May you continue to find 'gold'. 

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               stoneyyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               God doesn't exist no matter how much huffing and puffing believers do.
               
               The problem is inherent with all Creator (manufacturer) deity/deities.  The problem is compounded with each claimed omni attribute.  Another problem with the Abrahamic versions is its as a 'babe at first suck' compared to the many elders.  The final problem is the assertion doesn't provide any answer, not to mention all sorts of broken logic.

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      Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Would religion still exist if you couldn't lie?
      
      The word "religion" isn't restricted to just that of mystic stuff/jumk freely perpetuated forth by religious leaders. It has other meanings.
      
      Some people might think that this argument stems back millions of years and this sort of thinking would be wrong. Due to the fact that human beings, only became fully conscious about 3,000 years ago, it took millions of years to get to that point.
      
      So, anything dating further back, deals in nothing but illiterate, unknowing, very low conscious type primates.
      
      The bible and other mystic religions want people to believe that people automatically had human consciousness and it's not the case.

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         stoneyyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         I believe the Sphinx has been dated back about 5,000 years.
         
         The volcanic eruption which gave us Crater Lake has been dated as occurring 7,000 years ago.  Part of the dating, don't recall how much or in what way, came from Indian histories.  So, your about 3,000 years is way off.
         
         As to the consciousness aspect, I've no idea how you came up with that nor what objective supporting evidence there is for it.
         
         Do keep in mind illiterate does not equate to unknowing or stupid.  Metallurgy's been pushed back at least 1,500 years prior to what was thought to be the threshold.
         
         Many astonishing things have been learned from 'Utzi the ice man' who's about 5,000 years old, as I recall.  He's been a treasure trove of information.
         
         Cheers

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      kimberlyslyricsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      OK I really loved that movie.  And well directed.
      
      Clearly religion would cease to exist everywhere, and hopefully peoople would find faith in their truth
      
      

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         Stevennix2001posted 14 years agoin reply to this

         as always, your opinion is spot on kim.

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         stoneyyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         "Their Truth?"  Oh, what particular fiction they claim as truth.  They're welcome to it as long as they don't try to foist that stuff on others based on legislation.
         
         I see Christine O'Donnell's spotlight her ignorance again.  This time concerning evolution.  We don't need any more terminally uneducated people in government.

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      bobski123posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      If no one could lie then religion would not even exist because there all built on them.

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      rafkenposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Religion is a belief. A belief is something that you believe to be true. Therefore you would not believe you were lying when speaking about your religion. However, the religions, in a truthful world, would probably be different from the ones we know today. There would be religion of some kind.

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   alternate poetposted 14 years ago

   This is a bit 'fluffy'.  Lies depend on imagination and inventiveness.  With no evidence of any superior being to 'worship' through a religion it would not be possible to invent one or imagine one. Without imagination things that are unknown would be just that, theories could be formed from the available evidence only.  Chinese philosophy says that we do know things about the unknown, first, that we do not know.  A principle that religion would do well to take note of.

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      Stevennix2001posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      as always, you seem to bring up a lot of valid points.  i agree.  i think without the ability to lie and imagine things, it would seem impossible to believe religion would exist within our society, as there would be nothing to base that claim on.     
      
      edit:  then again, i guess we'll never know, as this is all hypothetical anyways.

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         stoneyyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         It would still be there.  The 'telephone game' and erroneous information believed and passed on.
         
         Columbine and Cassie Bernal is a good example.

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      stoneyyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I know of no deity construct which isn't vastly inferior to humans.

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   kessposted 14 years ago

   Since man is imaginative and creative, thus they posses the ability to lie. (a miss use of their creativity)
   
   without this creativity, they would be no more than dogs and other beast.
   Will religion exist with such?
   In a way but without the same flavor
   for even dogs travel in packs, and such.
   
   The kingdom of darkness will reign in and among those who make, believe and trust in lies. For they will be forever stagnated in their pit of ignorance.
   
   But the kingdom of God are those who are set free by the power of truth.

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      stoneyyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      The 'Kingdom of God' and truth are diametric opposites.  The 'Kingdom of God' is the kingdom of darkness.  Believers will be forever stagnated in their pit of ignorance.  [shrug]

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         Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Perhaps it's more agreeable to say the "Kingdom of Religion" is not the same as the 'Kingdom of God".  Depending on whether one believes God is a separate entity with arms and legs, or the representation of 'all that is'.  You can define the "all that is' any way you like.  But it's not taught in a book.

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            stoneyyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Kingdom of God, Kingdom of the Christian Religion is all the same to me. 
            
            I merely addressed Kess' claims which were projected into the real world.
            
            I don't believe in any deity/deities.  Others being religious doesn't bother me at all.  If it works for the individual, that's great.
            
            Its one thing when one's audience is of the same mind-like when in church-versus when the audience is a mixed group. Pretty much my point is a reminder of this.
            
            Cheers, Jewels

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   Joy56posted 14 years ago

   yeah i agree with that comment.... The truth does set you free, don't make you rich though that is for sure.  Nobody believes me, but i have never told a lie, i just cannot do it, not even a tiny one, i know lots of others who don't either.
   
   The truth has more to do with religion, does it not than lying.

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      stoneyyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Disagree.  Religion is based on lies and banking heavily on emotion.
      
      You're the first person I've come across to make that statement.

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         Joy56posted 14 years agoin reply to this

         maybe you have just not looked at enough religions, surely they cannot all be tarred with the same brush......

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            stoneyyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            More than likely any such were destroyed by other religions such as the Abrahamics.
            
            If it involves something to be enslaved to and worshiped, it would be.  Anything with a 'creator' deity certainly is.

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   Stevennix2001posted 14 years ago

   Yeah, but without imagination or the ability to think outside of facts, are most of you saying that god would find some way to prove he exists if that was still the case?

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   Stevennix2001posted 14 years ago

   i guess nobody else has anything to say.

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      stoneyyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Guess you didn't see this comment:
      
      I would indicate superstition would still exist.  Why?  Because truth told can be in error.
      
      Example: Columbine High School and Cassie Bernal.  It was widely said she was shot after she wouldn't give up her faith in God.  In the press, she was dang near Canonized.  Much later it was determined she was not the one who was so questioned.
      
      I'm sure there are still people who aren't aware of the facts of the matter.  I'm sure some are aware of the facts yet preach the same as it provides them comfort.

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   libby101aposted 14 years ago

   I think if the ability to lie was gone all the fake people would be tossed aside and the people who really try to live in truth would stand fast!
   
   Lying has nothing to do with God! God will remain either way! It is satan who would be in trouble with this theory! Without the ability to lie the ole demon would be in a world of hurt! How would he spread his evil doings?

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      Stevennix2001posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      but how would you know god existed though without the ability to imagine anything outside of what your senses tell you?

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         libby101aposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         On the basis of religion I have to agree! But with God I think God will remian! If all the lies of the world were suddently removed the truths of God would remian and all the garbage inbetween would be gone! Do you honestly think imagination and lies means the same thing?

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            Stevennix2001posted 14 years agoin reply to this

            no, but in the movie, mankind never evolved to have the ability to lie or imagine anything, so that's why i asked.

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      stoneyyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      libby101a posted;
      "I think if the ability to lie was gone all the fake people would be tossed aside and the people who really try to live in truth would stand fast!"
      
      A whole bunch of theists would be in a world of hurt then.
      
      libby101a posted;
      "Lying has nothing to do with God!"
      
      Lying has everything to do with God.  As the 'Sole Manufacturer' God is responsible for the product produced.  God was the one who added deceit into the 'mix.'
      
      
      libby101a posted;
      "God will remain either way! It is satan who would be in trouble with this theory! Without the ability to lie the ole demon would be in a world of hurt! How would he spread his evil doings?"
      
      God was the one who lied in the 'Garden of Eden.'  Satan told the truth.
      
      God was the prime evil both in the 'Garden' and throughout time.  God drowned the world, multiplied the pain of childbirth, created disease and pestilence, and famine.  God opened the earth under people then closed the rip.  God has actively 'hardened hearts,'  perverted justice and dabbled in bestiality and rape.  The evil God has done reverberates time after time after time in the Bible.
      
      Satan told no lies.  Satan didn't kill anyone.  Nor did Satan conduct any of the plagues, pestilences, or anything else.  Those were all actions of God as is the creation of Hell and the casting of the innocent into that atrocious maw.
      
      And yet, Satan is the bad guy?
      
      [boggle]

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   schoolgirlforrealposted 14 years ago

   Yes- as far a I believe
   
   The Apostles didn't lie when they told people they saw Jesus risen from the dead
   
   Things went on....and on.
   
   Of course things are flawed now...because there are lies involved. [But who do you think is responsible for that? Humans are not perfect. And I won't mention whom I think is responsible for influencing us to lie

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      Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      You do realize "lying" is a choice?

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         stoneyyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Not when an omni character is involved.

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      stoneyyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Rising from the dead was a common and ancient tale two millennia ago.  As to people seeing someone 'rise from the dead' that's garbage.
      
      As for the 'Global Flood' the Chinese, for one, didn't realize they survived underwater for over a year.
      
      The lies started with God, and continue.
      
      Satan told the truth in the 'Garden.'
      
      With Christianity, all are mere actors in a pointless play hitting their marks and spouting their lines as scripted eons ago when God furiously ejaculated the universe into being.

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   earnestshubposted 14 years ago

   No. All religion is based on lies.

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    Jeramiposted 14 years ago

    liby wrote
      If all the lies of the world were suddenly removed the truths of God would remain and all the garbage in between would be gone
    - - - - - - - - -
        I agree!
    That is what I think about Interpretations of scripture.
       
      If interpretations of scripture were seen as counterfeits of truth; ... 
       In comparison    ...  We would be able to hide a $20 gold piece under as many counterfeits, lost forever, even if the counterfeits were the size of a dime.
    
       If we could just make them vanish from our subconscious mind,
    we  would then be able to see the messages in scripture as they were intended to see them.

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    Jeramiposted 14 years ago

    cagsil wrote ....
    Due to the fact that human beings, only became fully conscious about 3,000 years ago, it took millions of years to get to that point.
    
    So, anything dating further back, deals in nothing but illiterate, unknowing, very low conscious type primates.
    
    The bible and other mystic religions want people to believe that people automatically had human consciousness and it's not the case.
    
    ======================
    
      I didn't realize that the builders of the pyramids and sphinx were not conscious? Hum
    
    ==========================================
    stoneyy wrote .....  @ cagcil
    Do keep in mind illiterate does not equate to unknowing or stupid.
    - - -
       right on!

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