Like everything else they try to explain, fantasizing a whopper of a tale of biblical proportions.
My feelings are, since the bible's purpose is not intended for anthropological accounting, that it is possible that between the time which God created the Earth and the time he got to the creation of Man, there was a long period that was unaccounted for. Also noone probably cared about that stuff or had any knowledge of it because God didn't feel this part of history was nessicary knowledge in order to obtain salvation.
I LOVE this... Thank you, what a great response!
im not a believer in the creationist theory, but i do believe in a mixture of the intelligent design and evolution theory concept. to answer your question though, my only guess would be these dinosaurs were prototype creatures god created before creating humanity, i guess. this way, he would KNOW how to create life after trying it out on those poor dinosaurs before deciding to KILL them. i could be wrong, but im just speculating.
How do they explain it? The same answer they have for everything. Goddidit.
The Earth was "created." To create denotes using materials already present in the universe. Is it not possible that this would include remnants of worlds once populated with all manner of fantastic animals? Of course it's possible.
Also, there are many possibilities as far as carbon dating is concerned. Certain epic disasters can alter such findings through natural manipulation of biological material. We are dating things according to the concept that no such ocurrence has ever happened. It can and probably has.
These are two possibilities. Each agreeably fantastic but also possible. Keep the mind open to all things.
Answer from Christian: They were dinosaurs that died here long ago.
(1) They claim there are no transitional fossils, which is a myth of epic proportions (since every fossil is by its very nature transitional)
(2) They claim carbon dating is inaccurate, and that dinosaurs may well have existed a few thousand years ago.
These seem to be the main arguments put forth, at least to me.
they're very good at saying what they don't believe in - so what do they actually believe about the fossils, and why do they think the dating is inaccurate? (carbon dating isn't used for very ancient things anyway). There are actually plenty of "transitional" fossils showing intermediates between taxonomy groups - I listed some of them on my hub about evolution
everything was big back then in a pristine environment. near 90% oxygen. untainted pure water. sunlight through unchemtrailed skies. A brand new earth would produce very large animals outside of the garden and when the continents broke apart many large animals were shoved off to other parts of the globe. Did God know that these large animals would later become oil along with other delugian material. Nothing surprises God. Nothing.
its easy to find similarities between animals, there are only so many variations and dissimilarities to be combined. We just look back and mix n match and form theories and say okay,.... things evolved dudes!
This to me is laughable. More inferences with some fact but perhaps and i say this to be nice, perhaps even more unfacts than the originator of evolution wanted to include. Nobel prize, yummy!! lol
how do you explain that there are no native placental mammals in Australia (the dingo was introduced by humans 4000 years ago). Hundreds of speices of marsupials - possums, kangaroos, wallabies etc. South America has a few native possums. No marsupials anywhere else.
Are you an old earth creationist or young earth creationist?
and christianity has more fact than inferences? Oh, yes, plagarised off greek mythology for a start - that's fact
thats interesting i thought the catholic religion incorporated pagan beliefs and uncannoned books into their repertoire while the early church, the upper room church in acts 2 and the other churches paul wrote epistles to were well aware of false doctrine and the desires of god the father through the work of christ on the cross. The church was underground for a good many years with the texts paul or another disciple (rarely) hand delivered. I remember laughing and praising god when i read how paul earnestly, earnestly wanted to visit the church in rome, not the catholic church, the underground christian church in rome but God had other places for him to be and he never got there, but ya know what.... the book of romans was created instead, perhaps pauls greatest writing, lol. God works in mysterious ways. Still makes me smile.
sorry plagarised by greek mythology is not a fact. you can't say things are a fact when they aren't thats just not proper decorum
The same way they explain away the fact that the earliest discovered human fossils look nothing like tall, handsome white men, and are found mostly in Africa. They can't.
If we are talking Young Earth Creationists, then I believe they say that all fosils are the result of the immense water pressure at the bottom of the Noah floods.
However, I fail to see any credible reason why Dinosaurs are not with us today. If they died out before Noah, they only had a very short existance and what is the explanation of their extinction. If God knew they would die out very shortly after the flood, then why bother to put them on the ark. If they wre on the ark, then we should have all manner of dinosaurs roaming about causing mayhem today.
In support of dinosaurs roaming about in biblical times amoungst people, there are one or two very lame extrapolations and twisting of scripture.
If we say creationists that believe in a 4.5 billion year old Earth, then there is plenty of time for the fossil record to accumualte exactly as paelientologists say (OK I can't spell).
all 3 versions involve mass death. Is god obsessed with death?
Absolutely obsessed. The biblical god got cheesed off with what he made and destroyed all of them according to the "good book"
How very ungodly of him!
completely godly. As we recall, sin spread like wildfire through the host of israel. In spite of all the thou shalt nots and death sentences, israel sinned grievously over and over, continuously. They hooked up with Baal who demanded child sacrifice and the drinking of blood. (while our ungodly god was content with animal sacrifice--- ooooh the horror!!!!) This is the hazard of not knowing context. You think one thing is evil but there is a greater evil that the lesser evil is keeping them from. In all the time of history God did not kill more than the victims of ww1 or ww2 combined and not to mention the 1.73 million abortions per year in the united states alone, but keep repeating those hate verses, we enjoy misinformation if it supports our viewpoint. This is somebodies idea of a higher morality.
sacrifices - interesting that many religions had sacrifices...nothing unique there
wonder what the vegetarians make of that?
OTHER nations sacrificed HUMANS and CHILDREN and DRANK blood. God chose to sacrifice israels DINNER. This is my point i mentioned above:
"You think one thing is evil but there is a greater evil that the lesser evil is keeping them from".
i don't know what vegetarians thought about that cuz there are no recorded vegetarians just human meat and blood drinkers EXCEPT for gods people who could well be labeled the first civilized society.
He was happy with the earth it was the evil in the hearts of the people he didn't like.
He was happy? Is that why he only left 7 or 8 humans remaining alive?
When I make a chair and it breaks I don't usually abuse the chair or set fire to it.
Bad humans! You all die cos I screwed up making you?
I said he was happy with the EARTH and not happy or didn't like the evil in hearts of the people. And yes God would have wiped the whole thing out but God always is amazingly gracious to those that please him like noah, of the line of seth...
Also you assume the flood was world wide, i have not screened this fully yet, but i believe different. That whole area is like a giant basin it is below sea level and may have been farther below then. I am a pangaea believer and i believe the continents divided during the flood so i am also saying that 8 humans yes and possibly many more because we have to take note of inhabitants on other countries besides australia or were aboriginies already there when the criminals got shipped out of england?
I have mentioned this before.
The words from which "the whole earth" was translated from"
Nebuchadnezzar had dominion over the WHOLE EARTH?
Cyrus said that the God of heaven has given him the kingdoms of the WHOLE EARTH?
The WHOLE EARTH was flooded?
We need to check out those translations?
The "criminals" you mention were my ancestors.
Many stole as little as a loaf of bread to feed their starving children, many did nothing more than upset a member of the ruling class.
Calling the Australian convicts criminal is insulting and ignorant in my view.
I know my Australian history, and it was not the convicts who were the criminals, it was the English ruling class who were starving them to death in Britain that were the criminals.
That you see nothing wrong in the idea that am omniscient god would wipe out all but a handful of it's creation speaks volumes.
If that does not seem just a tad weird to you, you have my sympathy.
Earnestshub, there are only two kinds of people in new south wales....
just quoting the history books i see this is another book that you know better than. You are amazing.
Taoist, Its root's go back to the 5000 years ago .Book of Supreme Peace A 2500-plus-year-old spiritual practice, 500 years before the bible. Taoist book makes it the second largest religion of the world; The idea of a Taoist is not fit their beliefs. ... You don't have to "believe" in dinosaurs. There is evidence of their existence.
I think the phrase "ITS CREATION" was a key point in what i think God can do with what is his, but i am sure you will enjoy debating that with God when the time comes
I'm a co creator with God; the kingdom of heaven is within me. God is all loving, and everyone is god.
I don't want to be hanging out with a bunch of Christians judging each other on Judgment day.
mankind screwed up and there are some quite good examples of mankind screwing up still, today.
some things never change.
So you are saying that all the newborn babies screwed up too and it was OK for some psychotic entity to waste them??????
Read my words. ALL BUT a handful were obliterated.
For what good reason again???
1 Corinthians 7:14 "For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the (believing) wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the (believing) husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy".
How about when herod ordered the children under 2 killed? How about when Nagasaki destroyed infants, how about when WW1 and 2, children were innocent victims of bombings... how about.... how about... You think because there are children God can do nothing? I cor. shows ya how to protect your children in case of earthquake, fire, or flood. Need another way?
Arguing anything with you reminds me of the cop who gives the speeding ticket. The one who enforces the rules are always wrong to do so. But there are real criminals out there, catch them officer. But the rest of my driving was good most of the other time. What a waste of tax payer money lol.
anything anybody says will always evidence against them.
lol... bible says, earnest.. learn to live with it.
also i have a friend who was hit by a bus as a child, age 2.5, almost lost his leg. Its severly skin grafted and now hes 40 and on disability with chronic lymphodemia.
He says: "as far as christianity is concerned he would rather have died as a child because he would have died an innocent.
Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression
if there is no transgression of law there is no sin.
Before the age of accountability, 13 or so... there is innocence. and if innocence then no sin. No sin, no judgment. You can't take someone to court if they are innocent.
Babies die innocent.
time to modify your thoughts about this.
Your psychotic entity in a fit of childish rage wiped out all but 8 of mankind apparently, as well as every bird in the air.
I wonder if one of the birds pooped on him/it?
The biblical nonsense is just what it sounds like. Nonsense.
Let it be that way
as you have spoken
I will not try to impart the christ that you crucify afresh before others daily anymore to you.
i brush the dust off my feet at your doorstep.
i may finally have met my first reprobate.
by the way i hope the sting of your supposed contradictions being shot down in flames did not harden your heart more toward a God who would save you, if only you would ask. I had hoped you might have given thought to the possibility that you are wrong in other areas also, as i have considered about your statements, many, many times.
ignorance must be bliss, be happy and farewell
funny how they don't find heaps of human skeletons with the dinosaurs etc from this supposed flood.
I think the flood was in Noah's bathtub! Probably fell asleep and dreamed the rest of the myth. The biblical flood story is hilarious!
it's so ridiculous. Heaps of dinosaurs would have been drowned either way, and where are all the fossils of these "evil" humans?
Maybe Noah had a wet dream?
There wasn't heaps of people and quite possibly heaps of dinosaurs either. What made you think there would be heaps of dinosaurs? did you infer and make a conclusion based on an inference?
Have you ever heard of pangaea? Of course you have before you wrote your latest hub.. pangaea was this earth of smaller size, smaller because all the continents and tectonic plates fit together perfectly, on a smaller sized earth. Pangaea had all the land together amassed on one side of it and the rest was water, sound familiar, it should.
Genesis 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
so the land and water are in one place. One continent. With a layer of water above the earth, keeping out radioactive waves.
Genesis 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. (perhaps thats a bit deep for ya anyway)
it is my belief that during the flood there was much more going on than just water from above falling. I believe the earth became larger and the continents split, due to the increase in size. But also that much would have been lost into the magma under our 37mile thick crust, irretrievable by any means today. Bone crushes and the water erodes even the hardest rock over time.
So there you have yet another answer to yet another of your questions. I hope you don't ignore this one as you seemingly have the others that don't fit your intelligently designed idiologies.
have a great day.
if there wasn't heaps of people, then why bother with a flood to kill them all? So God onlly made a few dinosaurs and then decided to drown them all - how senseless is that?
I hope you are having a fun time with your mocking and ridiculing. You are allowing Earnest behavior to rub off on you. I pray that God will heal your bitter heart toward him.
why stop there? Why don't you pray for god to stop him from "mocking and ridiculing"?
His character is not in question. His point is. It seems like a valid question so why don't you give an explanation instead of hopping on your high horse?
I will not pray for God to stop him from mocking and ridiculing. God will not force him to stop. He has to decide to stop on his own. The question which he asked have been answered. I see no reason to repeat it. Have a nice day!
I must have missed the answer. Maybe you can humor me. Was it or was it not senseless to "create" dinosaurs only to kill them all in a flood? Was Noah's arc not big enough? Did dinosaurs sin? Thank you. I'm having a great day laughing at these posts right now!
I'll attempt to answer the question you just posted as best as I can. But I'll have to use a scenario that you might compare with. It would be called a curing process.
The earth was very hot. Sterile you might say.
Uninhabitable for any and all life forms. This was true for more than a few million years after the cooling process had begun. Once it was cooled sufficiently Now what? It is still sterile. the smallest of plants can not live in sterile soil no matter how much water and sunshine it gets.
Even if you apply the basic compounds that plants consume into the soil; Ya still gotta have bacterial influence upon those compounds in order to break them down sufficiently that the plants can consume them.
For instance; if ya dig dirt up from a bout four feet under the surface of the earth, put that dirt into a container such as a flower pot, it will take a few years for outside influences to biologically contaminate and thereby cure that dirt sufficiently before an earth worm could live in it. And then it would take some time longer for that earthworm to condition that soil before it can be achieve a state to allow reproductivity of the earth worm.
Not until then will the dirt sustain the minimal plant life.
The earth is much larger than a flower pot. And we are much more intricate than a lizard. The earth had to be able to support reptilian life before it could sustain us.
I am a dumb hillbilly; and I may be a little off on my estimates, a scientist would be able to explain this much better than I.
but something along this basic concept is true concerning biological curing process to cause the chemicals in the environment to reach a level susceptible to sustain particular life forms.
And then the Ice age came. for what purpose I do not know.
And a meteorite slammed into the northern Ice , and who knows what that effects that had upon just about everything that wasn't killed off by the ice.
30% to 50 % (don't know) of the water on the earth was in the form of Ice.
It began melting, there was a flood and now here we are. Wondering ??? What the hech happened.
At least that is what I think.That is what I think ?
I think it is well explained by Lawrence Krauss.
WOC - you insist on REPEATEDLY accusing me of being bitter, angry etc ie attacking my character, which is harrassment.
You accuse me of mocking and ridiculing because I ask questions that make you uncomfortable. Two christians recently said they like my debates, because I refrain from personal insults and mocking.
As for Earnest getting banned, I've never seen any more "mocking and riducule" from Earnest than I read from Hanging Out. I think both are trying to inject humour at times.
Seems a few individuals are interested in "gagging" those that don't agree with them. eg I have seen at least 4 christians attack Paar for quoting from his holy book, yet christians quote from theirs. What gives the christians the right to control the forums? Just like the religionists gagged teachers from teaching evolution and human reproduction.
And, I thought you would remember that I am female, not male! Quit the personal insults; next time I will report you.
Wow, I have not personally attacked you. Your prior post above states:" Maybe Noah had a wet dream? Did you overlook that? It is mocking and ridiculing. Did you delete some of the other mocking messages above between you and Earnest? It's not nice to twist my words. I was not referring to the questions that you have asked on this thread. I am referring to your mocking about Noah and the flood. Sorry to disappoint you, but none of your questions makes me uncomfortable. I am sure you would love to set me up to be banned. It is not a threat to me for you to falsely report me for insulting you. I will continue to praise Almighty God. Have a great day Baileybear.
It's no more "mocking and ridiculing" than what Hanging Out and other christians say. Don't you recognise humour?
No, I didn't delete any posts. You must be imagining things.
Quit calling me bitter/angry etc as you are wrongly accusing me/making personal attacks - repeatedly, and I'm getting rather tired of it.
The point is if dinosaurs were about during the flood one would ecpect to find fossilsed humans amoungst the dinos, but we don't. Where are the big dinos today?
the firmament isn't a word in modern usage; goes with the flat earth concept - it refers to the dome of the heavens over the earth (which is an illusion of course). It was thought the sky was a solid object (in all mythology). Very unscientific of course, just like your answer about the water
i do not subscribe to modern usage bibles. KJV is the only one i use
This is what i meant by dividing waters
Genesis 1:6 "And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it DIVIDE the WATERS from the WATERS".
Genesis 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the WATERS which were UNDER the firmament from the WATERS which were ABOVE the firmament: and it was so".
You like science. Water can filter radioactive waves, which space has plenty of.
How do you know about the radioactive waves in space? Or anything at all about radioactivity, for that matter! This requires scientific instruments to measure the radioactivity. Or are you selective in which science you choose to believe in or suits your purpose?
the firmament being a fictious solid dome making up the "heavens", as it was thought back then
what's really funny is creationists take a little bit of scientific terms (eg Pangaea, tectonic plates, radioactive waves, etc), twist it all, add a ridiculous way-out interpretation that is neither biblical nor contradicts the bible, with no evidence!
each day I find out something even more ridiculous about christianity/religion!
this is why you want to lean on Jesus. Just do what jesus says and your walk will be fine. After the sinners prayer (u have sinned Bailey) God will want to have a chat with you. Wait upon God and you shall be renewed. You already know what God, to some degree, expects.
You will always find headshakers in religion and catholicism.
Its not my twist. You twisted what i said. lol. hows that for humor?
Pangaea is another scientific theory as all science is theory and assumptions based on totally inaccurate hindsight and crafty manipulation to get what they want. I offer light measurement, once thought to be in particles... invent a new machine and discover it is in waves. Oh my. change that theory but what if the new machine is also wrong.. change the theory aqain. lol. talk about blind faith hehe.
I like the Pangaea theory but i am not saying it is scriptural, but i do like it.
This is something amazing about living in the spirit and about being made alive in christ, we learn to read between the lines, the spirit filling in the blanks and using a nasty thing like context, that is staying within the guidelines of scripture or gods will, we can SEE into situations and perceive and answer that may not be supported by a definite scripture but neither does the bible say not to smoke cigarettes.
As for heaps of dinosaurs, whatevs. We talk of numbers lol how senseless is that? How do we know that proof of man with dinos in fossils is not repressed, how do we know that that information is not repressed? we do not. blind faith in 'knowing it all', people have tv and news papers which we know have been censored, but to what degree? Blind faith again.
I have a book in front of me which contains all the answers there is nothing blind about reading neither is there anything ridiculous in having faith. The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
have a great day!
I found it quite interesting when a christian is labeled ignorant when God presence is evident in their lives.
I counted at least 30 family groups of dinosaurs that have had fossils found (and each family doesn't necessarily equal one species).
And jesus was walking towards Nazareth, but the road was blocked by a giant brontosaurus...
All hail Bill Hicks for this question has already been answered (sit down and strap in...) God put them there to "test us"
Yeah, the explanations I've usually seen from Young Earth Creationists involve a combination of the Flood and the inaccuracy of modern dating methods. I've also known a few Young Earthers who flatly deny that dinosaurs existed in the first place.
At one time in history most people thought dinosaurs were dragons, these young earthers may have played a lot of dragon DVD games.
Google The Creation Museum
The Creation Museum is a museum that presents origins of the universe, life, mankind, and man's early history according to the Book of Genesis. Earth and all of its life forms were created 6000 years ago over a six-day period. The display shows dinosaurs like pets. Young Earth creationist claims, including the idea that humans and dinosaurs once coexisted, and that dinosaurs were on Noah's Ark like the T Rex and all the animal on the Ark were Vegetarian until the boat landed, then some animals became meat eaters.
you are aware the dinosaurs existed way before cromags walked the earth right?
i doubt dinosaurs were on the ark. Perhaps this is one of the animal types that God wanted to get rid of. Up until the middle ages dragons are talked of. A brother has no trouble believing that dragons existed until the middle ages a remnant from the dinosaur age prior. I believe and again its not scriptural that dinosaurs lived outside the garden.
Genesis 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
The garden was in eden. eden means pleasure.
Genesis 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken
God kicked them out of the garden but not eden.
It may be surmised that dinosaurs were not allowed to unpleasurize eden i do not have a scripture for that but i am not offended by this. God would keep them out and recall they died off suddenly, flood perhaps.
I believe there is an evolutionary process but not like it is put forth in the theory of evolution NOT fact of evolution, it is quite plainly a theory, blind faith again. I offer earthworms. In some dumps earthworms have learned to digest plastic. This is new to earthwormism lol. I offer the angler fish of the deep sea what glows and has a fishing rod with a light bulb sticking out of its forehead, what evolutionary gene has such 'keen insight' as to say to itself, hey if i grow a fishing rod out of my head, other fish will try to bite it and i can get a meal out of them. Also.. if i make it glow i can see where i am going, brilliant! lol.
Based on the size and dimensions of the ark, it's not likely that even all the species of dinosaurs would have fit, let alone the millions of species of other animals.
Perhaps, Noah was a magician just like Merlin, who waved his magic wand and "Higgildy, Piggildy" the entire contents of his house into a small carrying case. LOL!
I don't know very much about boat building but I'd think that any wooden boat of that size would break in the middle at the slightest ripple!!
perhaps you underestimate the toughness of the wood or perhaps or the strength of the Gods designing ability and the power of God. If God says build an ark you can bet that no matter what that ark is gonna complete the job God wanted it for.
Did God put all of the animals on the ark or just the ones local. Local seems reasonable. I doubt north american moose strolled on up to the gangplank.
But the number of animals does not bother me, the interpretation of the word KINE as genus or by name does not bother me either.
I might assume that God caused the animals not to eat and poo during this time, they perhaps had much sleep indeed.
Perhaps the drifting of the continents saved many animals and they became native to their respective climates.
Its all good.
What if Noah decided to use macaroni and glue?
I'm going out on a limb and assuming you were describing a dream you once had or perhaps some hallucination conjured after ingesting magic mushrooms?
Yes, it's all good...
too bad when something that you might be able to grasp comes close to you you always resort to writing a silly sentence.
I have been done with you so many times and indeed you get sillier and sillier and keep me laughing so hard
yet ..... i will stop there.
He behaves in this manner every time.
funny how they like to use dating methods when it suits them
I care not for dating methods. God did not need 6 days to create he just used 6 days. God did not need 6,000 yrs to create or 320 million years. He probably had time off to make a few more stars or some awesome nebulas.
Its like the flood, i don't think God needed 40 days he just used 40 days.
Time is not a factor to God.
To speak things into creation speaks to me of instantaneous.
It blows me away how people take these fairy stoies of the Bible as literal fact. Creationists are trying to press a square peg of religion into a round hold of science. Basically hey're compairing apples and oranges. There are countless creation stories between various cultures that are thousands of years old. The Bible was written 2000+ years ago. Modern science started about 500 years ago with the invention of the telescope which dispelled the ancient belief that the earth was the center of the universe. Creationists are in the same catagory as the Flat Earth Society.
It's quite amusing isn't it - they try to differentiate between "species" and "kind" but "species" weren't described until a few hundred years ago, further refined with molecular genetics in the last 30-odd years.
All those scientists tortured and murdered for daring to have an idea different from common belief.
Even Darwin was careful not to imply that humans and apes are related, because of the backlash (of course, he would have full confidence now with all the advances with genetics etc).
Many religionists still cling to supernatural curses as reason for death and illness; demonic possession for depression and epilepsy; and supernatural punishment for imperfection in the world.
And they still refer to the heart as being the place where god lives and where their feelings are (people in the old days didn't realise that feelings originate in the brain, not the heart)
Paul you are sounding like someone who desperately needs to hammer a point home. I don't care if you don't believe the bible. It matters not to me in fact your disbelief takes away any responsibility i ever had to talk to you about anything you do not believe in.
Stick to a forum you believe and try to contribute something POSITIVE and all good humans try to do.
you people are only reading part of the story, you have to take into account that if God did in fact create the earth and humans, then his sense of time and space must be different than ours.
That in fact one day to God may well be a thousand years to us. Or more.
So All of this could have happened in a natural way with a creator that sets everything in motion.
If you only read the bible stories and don't account for the time needed or the circumstances at hand you will definately find conflicts. You have to realize that time to us is different than time to God.
diane, i couldn't agree with you more, as i think people tend to often misread into things about the bible.
Hopefully better than evolutionists having carbon-dated a living turtle at 2.5 million years of age and the turtle was still walking. The real question: How do evolutionists explain a flood waters as high as the highest peak being a localized flood. What held their waters back from covering the earth?
flood waters, as opposed to, a flood waters...sorry I work about 80 hours per week.
creationists can't even give a decent explanation for a supposed flood that covered the highest peak, so how can evolutionists?
Science fails to give a decent answer to how things got here. There are many things people take for granted that are blind faith, history books, even quantum mechanics and until another machine is made to measure light we accept the second machines accuracy on blind faith.
the flood is wonderfully intriguing but i have to admit that i have not given it that much attention, it is not paramount to my salvation. I have a few pictures of the event that satisfy me. When i say to you france is beautiful this time of year, i may picture sun on the Eiffel tower and you may picture autumn leaves on the west bank, although both pictures be true they do not meet the others perception. This is fair and good, especially in christendom. I have said before that others do not care to know what the serpent in genesis 3 is they are happy to follow God never knowing and that is well and good. Others desire greatly to know and that answer is out there somewhere by now i am sure. I myself have a few pokes at it. and this is well and good but not necessarily your imagery.
Distractions abound in the world and the seeking of easy knowledge through easy channels is not the best way to go. Yes some answers will aid one in being saved but being saved is for whomsoever believes, of tantamount importance but to the saved it is the glorious first step, i speak of myself but not of all. It is hard to surrender ones pride and will and stubborness, this is truly a high calling but it is not impossible just not possible for some.
so, you are willing to admit that believing in the bible is blind faith too? Blind faith that it was inspired by God (and jews, christians, muslims all only believe a certain number of books are devine and don't believe in the same god). Blind faith that the people that voted on which books go in the bible got it right?
The interesting thing about scientific theories, is they are not so arrogant to claim absolute truth, because there is always something new to add to support a "theory". No better theory has been proposed for evolution or gravity or the solar system etc. Intelligent design is really religionists trying to attack science because they realise people might doubt what they have been taught to believe for centuries. Scientific "theories" are built on measurements and observations in the natural world. Religion is built on belief that a book of writings came from god - the latter takes more "blind faith"
How you got that from what i wrote i will never understand. I can understand how the bible complexes you so. Nice to know you believe in something that does not ascribe itself to absolute truth. The bible is absolute truth and i subscribe to it.
misinterpret what i just said.
Science provides excellent answers based on evidence, which does not include the waving of a hand by an invisible sky fairy, sorry to say. LOL!
Many who never take the time to understand concepts like quantum field theory and the speed of light, even at basic levels often make nonsensical comments about comparing them to the blind faith they embrace.
How do creationists explain fossils eg of dinosaurs
That is easy .... god created dinasours ... and then ...????
Dinosaurs are mentioned in the book of Job.
There are two. one is the behemoth, probably a brontasaurus, the other mentioned is called leviathon. Some aquatic dinasaur.they have a description.
Chapter 40 KJV
Are there any of these species or their descendants still alive today?
and I'm not even going to ask ya to prove it. ha
I believe ya
I couldn't anyway. the scottish seem to think there is something there. I'm not very good with the water dinosaur. but check this description of "behemoth".
he eateth grass,his strength is in his loins,and his force is in his belly,he can drinketh a river. his bones like iron.he moveth his tail like a cedar, the sinews of his stones wrapped together. so maybe it was the dinosaur that had the "club" on his tail.
what does the lochness monster have to do with dinosaurs? seriously. as far as i know, there's been no definitive proof of a lochness monster as of yet. Don't get me wrong, there's a strong possibility it might exist, as we still haven't explored the entire depths of our oceans, seas, rivers and whatnot thoroughly as scientist discover new species all the time. hell, the last i heard they already discovered giant squids living at the very bottom of the ocean. something that was never before thought possible due to the extreme amount of pressure at that depth.
therefore, it's possible. however, i don't think you can say definitively that lochness exist today, until actual proof is gathered first that it even exists.
Even the tourist blurb can't save the Nessie myth.
Loch Ness has been scanned from a-hole to breakfast time. No Nessie. Just like other myths, science was not it's friend.
I've always thought Nessie to be a tourist trap,anyway.
I just wish I had been there. I have a friend from the area and it is stunningly beautiful.
And it is good that they have what they have.
I wouldn't want it to be said that I am the one that took that from them. As it says is scripture... So be it!
Or did I just make that up. OH Well. sigh!
an inference that i can imagine is that we suppose the beastie is limited to one lake. If you look at scotland the lake pretty much divides the whole country
and we haven't ruled out connecting shafts way down under. It would have access to the sea! on both ends.
to many inferences in hubpages for me to take any conversation seriously lol. inference, inference, my kingdom for a fact lol.
I was just playing. ha ha. I don't really know much about the aquatic dinosaurs,so i couldn't guess on the scientific name. In Job's description of the land dinosaur, it seems to be talking about the one that was covered in sheilds with the club for a tail.
that's cool. i figured you were when i read your post, but thanks for clearing that up. i think i know which dinosaur your talking about, but i don't know the exact name of it right now. however, that is very interesting. i didn't realize that dinosaurs were mentioned in the book of job. thanks for the input. does it also mention anything about the giant arachnids that used to exist BEFORE dinosaurs too? the reason i ask is because i saw a documentary once on the discovery channel, and they said before dinosaurs even existed, the planet used to be dominated by giant spiders. have you heard anything like that?
no,I haven't. But there is also mention of unicorns, but i think that it might mean something else. JOB 39? it's also mentioned in Numbers, somewhere around where they mention Moses having a black wife.
God loved Unicorns and disrespect Jellyfish
The man of God is the opposite of a jellyfish in every respect.
The World’s Only Immortal Animal
The turritopsis nutricula species of jellyfish may be the only animal in the world to have truly discovered the fountain of youth. there may be no natural limit to its life span. Scientists say the hydrozoan jellyfish is the only known animal that can repeatedly turn back the hands of time and revert to its polyp state (its first stage of life).Turritopsi can regenerate its entire body over and over again, it is able to reverse its aging processes ...its 650 million years old, it has no brains or backbone, it travels it prays in all oceans and all depth of sea. It weighs up to 450 pounds. The jelly population is many times greater than humans.
The jellyfish can shows that the bible and the Quran are written by people and not by any god
Anyone curious to know more about the bible and the jellyfish
And some of the oldest trees on earth, the great bristlecone pines, don’t seem to age like we do. At 3,000-plus years, these trees continue to grow just as vigorously as their 100-year-old counterparts. Unlike animals, these pines don’t rack up genetic mutations in their cells as the years go by.
This giant cypress lives in Abarkooh, Iran. The evergreen took root between 4,000 and 4,500 years ago, around the time that Stonehenge was being completed. It may be the oldest living thing in Asia, and is a national monument in Iran.
This common yew in Llangernyw, Wales, sprouted during Britain’s Bronze Age, and is between 3,000 and 4,000 years old.
The majestic evergreen tree was discovered in 1993 in a grove in the Andes Mountains of south-central Chile. Using tree rings, scientists showed the giant is 3,620 years old
This giant bald cypress lives in the semi-tropical Big Tree Park, Florida, among palm trees. The Senator is the biggest tree by volume east of the Mississippi River. The 125-foot-tall behemoth is about 3,500 years old
Gee, a young earth is supported here. NO trees older than biblical records.
You might want to read http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/hovind/ … -yea2.html
Oh, never mind. It's too scientific.
i know, i've been watching my layers of earth deplete from my front lawns for decades now... sarcasm lol.
science doesn't impress me. It is all just theories and clever manipulations to come to a conclusion that they want.
try this one... http://6000years.org/ with no sarcasm lol
World's Oldest Living Tree -- 9550 Years Old -- Discovered In Sweden
Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The tree, at least 4862 years old was cut down U.S. Forest Service
Bristlecone pines grow in isolated groves at least 4844 years old,
The jellyfish is 650 million years ago
The Flood happened about 4400 years ago.
Many trees, fish, animal, dinosaurs, frogs and bugs swam around in space until God created earth 6,000 years ago….not
"Gee, a young earth is supported here. NO trees older than biblical records"
You really got um! No arguing that for reelz!
Gee, that sure helps explain Australia's 46,000 year old people then!
and why there were a wide diversity of marsupial mammals but no placental mammals in Australia (dingos were introduced later)
google didnt give me any such returns earnest, can you prove this 46,000 yr old people. As such i was not able to confirm what you say to be true, i can guess it is another lie, but i won't, i will give the benefit of the doubt and just ask you to cite your proof please. For the benefit of all.
Job doesn't mention dinosaurs unless you choose to interpret behemoth as a brontosaurus.
Is it a christian jellyfish? Seriously though, this is very interesting!
Man-o-war is not a jellyfish but it is in bible science
The Portuguese man-o-war has a nasty sting because it can only drift. It is easy prey. The man of God does not need a sting; he strives to be gentle. So, we see the get-up-and-go of the man of God. He is not a jellyfish, drifting along with the currents of the world. He is more like a dolphin, leaping over the waves; gliding through the water. He lives an active life: he flees, he pursues, he fights, and he takes hold
The man of God is to have some get-up-and-go about him. He is not to drift passively along with the currents of the world like a jellyfish. He is to flee, to pursue, to fight and to take hold.
If, like jellyfish, we simply drift along with the culture we will never become men and women of God. The world around us is not pursuing righteousness or godliness or faith or love or endurance or gentleness
We must live in different worlds. The world around me is wonderful. I don't enjoy the hate in the world but as the "men of god" you mention number over 5 billion deluded individuals who have a "god" has it occurred to you that they may be the problem?
I live in a large family full of love, tolerance and understanding, but no god has ever had any say in it.
Love and kindness is the only thing that penetrate me, my mother says she is an atheist, then agree with me about everyone is god. We both do not believe in the SUPER natural GOD stuff.
Do anything you want, If you’re not harming anyone your godlike in my eyes.
God just a word, it’s only the behavior that count. Only, you know for sure.
I agree. I know a bit about love. I have enough self worth to have self love to share. I don't get annoyed by the kids around me all day, I love every precious minute. Kids know about love, we just need to ensure we don't damage their self worth and all is fine. Adorable honest. I have to go to dinner, a 5 year old is scolding me and I don't want to get in her bad books. Ferocious little female! Back after dinner.
earnestshub wrote "...over 5 billion deluded individuals who have a "god" has it occurred to you that they may be the problem?"
But have you ever wondered where the middle ground might be if it weren't for BOTH extreems? Take just one of these away, then what have we got?
My life and morals are logic based. I know I get what I give and make those choices. I choose love of my fellow man and peace in my life.
9/10ths of the world believe a fairy is in charge of it all. Like many other non religious people I do no harm to others, in fact I contribute strongly. I think if you look honestly you will see that the world is in a mess, but it is not caused by unbelievers.
Iraq was invaded with god's blessing, the taliban are blowing people to pieces with bombs, the christians are killing in Africa and being killed in Iraq, the muslims are killing in Russia, the Jews are killing in the Gaza strip, shall I go on? How many of these wars are fought by religionists about religion?
All of them! Bush may have gone after oil and the kickbacks to Halliban, but it was done in the name of god. George Bush said so and nobody contradicted him that I know of.
Hitler was a religious fanatic, he just saw it was not the best way to motivate Germany at that time or he would have made it his.The great psychologist Marie Louise Von Franz was present at some of his public screamings and I have read what she wrote about him. His religion haunted him.
What do they all have in common?
A belief in the most implausible of hearsay stories made obviously with the intent to intimidate and frighten an ignorant and terrified people. Much like today, and I find it mind-numbingly stupid.
What we would get without religion is a world that cares because it understands that the most selfish yet noble of all acts is to support life, all life, when we support mankind ourselves, our whole self worth is supported and nourished from the inside, no god has any part in that. It is simply good logic.
What sometimes wears me down is living in the land of crazy.
I was trying to explain this to someone just yesterday. I asked them to imagine that just about everyone around them was worried that the moon was going to come crashing down to destroy the Earth. Scientists kept telling people there was no reason to think that, but people would say "You can't PROVE that won't happen!" and go on worrying about it and talking about it incessantly.
You couldn't escape it. People would mention buying "Moon insurance" and ask you where you thought the safest place to live might be. Every week, some nut would go on TV insisting it was going to happen on next Monday and the news reporters would take it very seriously every time. Every time people made plans, they'd add "If the moon doesn't fall!"
You'd feel like you needed to scream. Maybe you would, but people would just look at you like you were the crazy one.
I told him that's what I felt like living in this world. He looked at me and (of course) said "But God is real"
Migrate mate! It's pretty good here. The words god-botherer are in the local vocabulary, and it is the fanatics who get the dirty end of the stick.
I wish we could.
I am honestly disgusted by this country - not by the political system as designed, but by how it has been hijacked by the ultra rich and how the hopelessly stupid are manipulated by them.
We're too old, though. We're stuck here with the Moon-fallers.
I am quite disgusted by some of the American christians on here - they say atheists are satan worshippers and are evil etc. I really had no idea just how "christian" Americans think they are.
I had only my nutty family to move away from - not the majority of the population!
America is a land of extremes, Europe is a continent of moderation and balance. Still if you will live in the free world!!!
you will always find bad somethings, bad dancers, bad drunks, bad teachers, bad politicians, bad police, but do you say all dancers and drunks and teachers and politicians and police are bad. NO. Because right off the bat you are aware of the outrageousness and incorrectness of the statement! Yet this is not true of christiandom. They are all bad.. I see some bad christians, here is your bad christian... now chuck your god!
this is hypocrisy
Never too old my friend! You're a really smart guy, you must have some skills we need here? Small businesses can work well here as well. I'll think of something you can do.
"god-botherer" is a phrase my husband uses a lot. The religious extremists stick out a mile in New Zealand and Australia.
What sometimes wears me down is living in the land of crazy.
then get rid of that hat! lol
well yah.... there is no book that reveals that the moon will come crashing down to earth, in fact, the bible says it will NOT! This is why there is a book left by God so we know what to expect and we understand many things by it.
god is real.
There is also the rumor that germany was inundated with cocaine prior to the war. Hitler was born roman catholic and we know wolves like to wear sheeps clothing. Also at that time, the spirit of society was much godlier. People who believed in God were the majority of the population and not as educated. Today a grade 12 edu level is normal back then grade 9 was lucky. There are so many factors that you do not take into consideration when you misinform everybody as to what you know is right.
I find most posts funny because they lack so much world view.
You also never mention hitler didnt have enough common sense to get his VD checked lol. or that hitler was a 33 level mason. You leave out so much.
Anyone who thinks brainwashing doesn't work should look at religious indoctrination. About 99% effective!
Me too. I was young, but that is not the only reason. Indoctrination in my case. My children were much smarter at that age!
I might have slightly derailed this thread with my man-o-war jellyfish story. I am really strap in to hear much more about creationists views on fossils dinosaurs. This is one of my guilty pleasures to listen to, along with TV Evangelists Exploiting the end of the world
Try political and indoctrination threads
mine was indoctrination too. My son is too smart for that. He was atheist before I was!
I never use the term "atheist" to describe my position. It is a religious concept. Not believing in myths as fact does not require any other belief system. It has another title. Common sense.
more like uncommon sense!
I don't like the term atheist either; maybe non-theist would be better?
It should be called uncommon sense I guess. Not a lot of the world is terribly aware if the main reason for war remains "My invisible fairy is better than yours"
Here some giant ego at play
Giants bones the size of foot ball fields.
lol thhhchunk, thhhhchunk, thhhchunk.... broken record.. lol
earnest comment here will ya about how many wars recently have been fought over ones God being better than another.. prove this statement please.
be prepared for me to counter it though so do your research!
smarter or naive' In my books children who do not acknowledge God in their life have been indoctrinated by unbelieving parents lol
anyone who thinks brainwashing doesn't work should look at those who keep up with the jones's
you mean people that are after material wealth? Gee sounds like the pentecostal megachurches Destiny and Hillsong
I think he meant The Reverend Jones and his infamous Kool-Aid (really Flavor-Aid, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones )
I remember watching a film on that years ago on TV - couldn't believe how anyone could do that. Some speculate the leader of destiny (brian tamaki) doing the same thing - he made all the men pledge allegance to him (and wear a ring with his face on it). He wanted to have his own city with own schools etc, cut off from society
no i did not... i mean the world and its ways is perhaps the most influential brainwasher that many religions warn against. Everybody knows you can't take it with you but nobody tries to live without it. Except christlikeians and missionaries who travel to africa to live in huts without running water for example. Jesus' preaching demands we give up the ways of the world and our own self nature, but everybody wants a 40" plasma tv lol.
and your still too worried about what destiny and hillsong are doing while you do nothing yourself. Don't worry about destiny and hillsong. Sheesh i heard one song from hillsong and i never listened to another. Getting in touch with jesus doesn't require a plasma tv or even internet.
Why do we not find human skeletons dating prior to dinosaurs? .... Actually, they were in a way... the Bible mentions giant lizards and ... Sorry but the bible is no more factual than the story of the 3 little ... Why doesn't it talk about dinosaurs in the Bible? Why weren't dinosaurs mentioned in the Bible? ...
I don't quite understand the purpose of the question.
How do creationists explain fossils found in Pompeii? Probably the same as they explain fossils of dinosaurs.
The Bible states God created creatures of the earth, sky, and sea before creating man. Therefore, dinosaurs would have been created before man, and dinosaur fossils would exist the same as any other fossilized creatures.
My question is to do with really, how do many believers write off the fossil record and geological as support of evolution (the ones that claim a young earth and a global flood). If one claims a flood - which would not give rise to the layering of fossils as we have, then why are there not modern human fossils from this flood too?
More creatures are extinct than are alive today. Why wipe out all these creatures? God likes death?
What do believers make of fossils of other human species? Did they not have souls? Why create all these things, to have them destroyed, to have some humans finally arrive for this hell/eternity thing that believers can't even agree on?
The egg of the dinosaur is really a rock, come on we see the virgin Mary in peperoni pizza's and we sell the pizza on ebay for lots of money. Smile
Although I do agree with hanging out about the whole Australian bit, as I too read about that in history books as well. However, I would like to point out though that every countries' history is biased to some degree, from their own point of view. Therefore, most history books aren't a 100 percent accurate, as history is often depicted by the winners. Take Native American history for instance. Native Americans invented and celebrated Thanksgiving for years, before the Pilgrims were even invited to join them. However, you'll notice that as Native American influence was wiped away from America's history, and forced to relocate various times, that history books were written saying that allegedly the Thanksgiving between the Indians and Pilgrims was not only invented by the Pilgrims, but it was the first Thanksgiving. You see how that works?
Look, I'm not picking sides between Hanging Out or Earnest, as I think they both brought up valid points. However, I just wanted to point that out, as history books aren't always a 100 percent accurate, as most are biased to their own culture or to the author's point of view. Therefore, it's subjective. I just thought I'd put my two cents in on this.
So dinosaurs are mentioned in Job in the Bible? Wow! So it must be true that dinosaurs existes the same time as humans just like in the Creation Museum in Arkansas! So all this time The Flinstones was a documentary! Man, I learn something every day! Lol. Get real!
God is God , there is no other God before him. Get with the program people. Tomorrow is not promised to you. Don't listen to the lies of satans own. They want everyone to join them in hell. i know to a non believer this sounds strange, but it is the truth. God loves you and cares for your very soul.
For the record Troy, I never said I didn't believe in god. I was just saying the whole "Yabba Dabba Doo" remark to be funny, since Paul brought up the Flinstone reference. Therefore, I don't know why your making your statement in response to one of my posts, as I'm not the one saying there isn't a god.
The creation Museum quoted all dinosaurs like the T-Rex were vegetarian on board.
How come, not one fossil of these meat eating dinosaurs were found. Not one similar bone structure with changes of flat teeth to eat carrots or lettuce?
Why not one of the carnivores had flat toes rather than shredding flesh claws on their hands and feet they had ever found a fossil?
Or was Noah like a great dinosaur tamers too, similar to lions or bears tamer.
Noah was six hundred year old man , all that poop, all the feeding, all that sailing a storm and the T-Rex must a been a wimp too.
The dinosaurs were here and created by god, but they were terrible sinners and he decided to smote them from the planet and start over with man.
Lots of mulligans for someone who is ominipotent don't you think?
Whatever you've been drinking, send me a case!
It did cross my mind a time or two, yes.
The creation story does not explain anything. It does not present any evidence in any form for anyone to believe it. It is just a story passed down through the centuries from one generation to the next. There are many holes in the story. For starters it does not mention anything about any prehistoric animals including the dinosaurs.
A dinosaur ruined my daughter's cell phone. Explain that if you can. Really happened. How do you explain that when they opened up the volcanic cocoons of victims of Vesuvius at Pompeii, nothing was inside but dust. No bones. DUST Pompeii was destroyed around 72-73 AD Where did the bones go?
I'm not too sure volcanic ash is very conducive to the preservation of organic material.
A dinosaur messed up my twin granddaughters room apparently so I am not surprised to hear about the phone.
They both swear it's the truth.
ok first off when god flooded the earth dont you think that it was kind of retarded that the only person that had a big enough boat was noah . i mean common god didnt just save him because he had all the animals on his boat . the little cartoon thats on here doesnt make any sence at all because dinosaurs were extinct long before humans had even could even put words together . and if noah and his wife were the only two human left on earth would that make those two people the new adam and eve .if so the entire population of earth was created by insest. the only thing that we know for positive is biblical or not is that every extiction or the new begining of life on this planet had somethings to do with nature.
the bible is the most confusing book in the world .its been rewriten so many times no one even know what it oringally said any more . the only thing that makes any sence was the commandments and those were suposedly handed to moses by god .if god can givce him the commandments then i want a winnning lottery ticket . lets see him hand that down .not to mention the commandments came from a man who thought that he could part the ocean . my point being is weather its evolution or god were here and we all die eventually . the only consistantcy in life is death and extiction by nature or by each other .
If humans are killed off,
Can you imagine being replace by 4500 species of cockroach and jelly fish, 3 stories high.
No, not even the commandments are any good.
If anyone bothers to read ALL of the 10 commandments without chopping out all the bits that punish dissent with death.
Just more psychotic nonsense that is cherry picked, altered then sold as "truth"
All primitive religions use death to control its adherents. Christianity is no different than any of the many known cults all around the world. People are afraid of death. They do not realize they were dead before they were born. I don't remember it being so bad, do you?
Nah! I was fine before I was born!
It's been pretty damn good since too!
If you took the death threats out of the bible it would only be a few pages long!
Sounds like Brave Heart and the Passion of Christ combined
When the End comes near, add Mad Max to the writings
Along with Rupert Murdoch, Mel Gibson was yet another dodgy Australian export!
Mel is a screaming religionist apparently.
If people would just think about the almost impossible odds of them being born into this world they would not worry so much about dying.
Just one break in the chain of their ancestry going back millions of years and they would never be. Not to mention being the fastest sperm in the crowd. LOL!
How many Christian members do you think there would be, without the fear of an afterlife of hell?
Put the whole earth's history in a one year calendar.
Dinosaurs lived for 3 months
Man exist for 10 minutes
I wonder, why is God so jealous of jelly fish and dinosaurs
Which god? If there's one, there has to be more! Because after all, they breed like...well, cockroaches!
Close! Coprolite is indeed petrified dung! I think they make jewelry out of it in New Zealand!
Yep... That's Right!!
Thanks for That RG
DNA Testing on that Coprolite substance here has determined that genetically for the current Mayor of BumbleTown Speaking BS is Not a newly acquired skill!
But you don't have a monopoly on BS, PD! I live in the Bible Belt, so I can authoritatively state there is plenty of BS in the BB, PD!
I've found that the introduction of Dung Beetles has worked on occasion here... Though it has meant that the Mayor has acquired a bit of a limp since then
Perhaps a Sister City Program can be established?
PD&RGsBTBBBSSCP or RG&PDsBBBTBSSCP -
- Nah... 2012 will sort it
by cooldad 9 years ago
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/09/scien … wanted=allNew fossils were found in South Africa which may help further explain human evolution. The fossils apparently show combinations of apelike and human combinations.Any thoughts?
by Baileybear 10 years ago
eg heavy metals like mercury, and radioactive substances like uranium? And how & why did oil get deposited? What about fossils?Hoping for answers with more substance than "God put it there" or "so people could invent cars one day" and other such fluff
by vanteezy 10 years ago
Did any holy books mention dinosaurs in the bible?
by John Colarusso 5 years ago
Can Any creationists provide any real world evidence for creationism, without using their holy book?I am just curious for any creationists, what is your proof and reasoning for what you believe? Obviously your holy book or own personal experiences, but can any of you provide any geographic,...
by Richard Parr 9 years ago
“Evolutionary theory is not a slam-dunk. It is an exercise in storytelling that masquerades as a scientific theory” [William A. Dembski]In his article 'Questions Evolutionists Would Rather Dodge', Dr Dembski asks five questions.I present only the first one here. What is the evolutionists response...
by A Troubled Man 7 years ago
There is no dispute on evolution.It's one of the best understood, thoroughly tested scientific facts ever.No aspect of it at all is based on anything but sound, evidence-based, science.The current Pope accepts evolution, the previous Pope did, the one before him did. The current Bishop of...
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