Separation between Religion and State why…...

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   Sundaymomentsposted 13 years ago

   Our government has demanded that separation of state and religion be invoked at all times. However; when prayer was allowed in the school there were also better moral principals to the educational process. When prayer was allowed before governmental swear-in; it seemed that the outcome of each term was more successful.
   
   When God’s word instructed us to put him first in everything that we do; it certainly is apparent now why God should have always been first (when allowing man to be first we have a messed up our complete system; however allowing God to be the leader and man to be the follower our country was great and fearless leader). Do you agree…?

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      Diane Insideposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I agree, I remember the year when they took the Ten Commandments out of the schools.  In the years since then it has been so noticeable, how things have changed.  I remember when the worst things we saw was chewing gum and talking, which has now been replaced with drugs and guns.
      
      I believe that taking God out of the schools has invited something else in to take the place.
      
      I never thought it was necessary to insist that school children participate in any religious activity, but taking it out of schools altogether, was going to far. 
      
      That is why if I were able to manage it my children would be home schooled, where I know what values they are learning. A friend of mine said her 9 yr old came home talking about how they were teaching them how to put a condom on a bannana.  Really, this is just ridiculous, and btw they did not ask the parents permission to teach such things.  Some things are just too much.
      
      If they are going to take God out of the Schools they should at least leave it up to the parents what  whether or not to let them participate in sex education, or anything that differs from their religion.

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         Stevennix2001posted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Well diane, I can see what your saying, but those were different times back then.  things have changed a lot.  now christianity is no longer the dominant religion anymore within the united states.  therefore, if we did implement religion back into schools, whats to stop a person who's a muslim, jew or whatever from saying, "wait a minute, why is christianity being endorsed in schools, but not ours.  discrimination i tells ya." 
         
         so you see, it could be argued as discrimination if christianity is the only prayer said in public schools.  Causing even more problems.  Therefore, i don't know if that's the answer.  the problem is not all parents are great parents.  sure, there's only so much teachers can really do in school with their students, but they can't control how their parents raised them.
         
         i do agree with you that SOMETHING needs to be done to improve our school systems, but i don't know if i can agree about reintroducing prayer in schools again, as i can see that leaving way for a lot of law suits down the road if you catch my drift.   
         
         as far as sex education goes, i don't know if they changed this or not since i was in school.  however, i do remember i had to get my parents to sign a permission slip before taking it.  therefore, im sure they probably still do that.  of course, i could be wrong though. 
         
         in any case, these are different times now.  sure, our country may have been founded by highly religious people, but church and state should be approached differently; especially in this country where we try to incorporate various cultures into one big melting pot.

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         Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         that's very naive concluding a cause and effect with taking some religious aspects out of school and the state of society.  I read the other day that religionists in America kept the teaching of evolution out of schools for over 25 years.  If they had their way, no one would understand the scientific basis of sexual reproduction, astronomy, genetics or anything.  We would still be in the dark ages where "medicine" was chopping a limb off without anaesthetic. 
         
         Society has evolved a lot, even in the last 50 years, like it or not.  Lots of things have changed - maybe kids don't respect their teachers because they won't get the cane these days?  Maybe it's because schools are still stuck in rigid authoritarian ways?  And artificial additives in food - big triggers for horrible behaviour etc.

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            Disappearingheadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            The causal link between removing prayer and the decline in schools is not proven. In Britain we still have school prayers and sing hymns, but have seen the same sort of decline.
            
            Society has changed due to a myrid of inputs. To say it is all due to a lack of prayer is nonsense and assumes that all those 1950's kids believed in God.

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      Stump Parrishposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Our Government doesn't demand this, our Bill of Rights and the Constitution of The United States demand this. Our Government has no power to demand religious adherence and never did.
      
      I don't know where you drew up but during the 60's and early 70's Things were better only if you were white and christian. The good old days everyone wishes for weren't so good for everyone. Should we also go back to blacks being killed for being black? Should we go back to the abuse women suffered at the hands of men like they did during these good old days? When prayer was allowed in school. Should we limit our conversations about sex so much that countless rapes go unreported like they did when prayer was allowed in school.
      
      //When prayer was allowed before governmental swear-in; it seemed that the outcome of each term was more successful.//
      
      Explain how reciting a prayer makes everyone involved suddenly change and do a better job. If this is an accurate statement, and combine that with the fact that the majority of American's are christian, you all have a problem focusing on your religion. Or perhaps you simply require hourly refreshers on how to behave and work for the betterment of society. If it is the first secnario you don't need to be in office if you can't focus. If the second scenario is correct in your case you need to consider a work at home career.
      
      Show me examples of god's words being given the prominence you claim it has. Show me where and how God's words were placed first in the running or founding of this country, please make it something I can verify at a legitimate site. Hint, dont go to the Wallbuilders and Associates, sites. please.

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         couturepopcafeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Actually, with respect, the U.S. Constitution, in essence, is the government.  The U.S. Constitution serves two major functions: 1) It creates the three branches of the federal government and 2) It protects individual rights by limiting government's ability to restrict those rights.
         
         The Establishment Clause to the First Amendment of The Bill of Rights prohibits the government from either establishing a government-sponsored religion or promoting one religion over another.
         
         The Free Exercise Clause to the First Amendment prohibits the government from interfering with the free exercise of religion in the United States.
         
         So, although the government cannot establish or sponsor a religion, they also cannot interfere with the free exercise of religion.  Not allowing students to pray in school, for example, is completely unconstitutional.

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            Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Actually, it's not. It is keeping "State" and "Church" from colliding.
            
            Keeping it OUT of schools, which are public schools, state funded schools, is the right thing to do.
            
            Others have a right for a person's religion from interfering in their life. Therefore, it stays out of schools.
            
            Any school that is funded by "State" or "Federal" agencies, then religion has no place.

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            Ray Thoughtsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Good reply Couturepopcafe.  The Constitution protects religion from government interference and an established Government Church like England had.

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      Onusonusposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I am reminded of a quote by Darrell Scott; "We do need a change of heart and a humble acknowledgment that this nation was founded on the principle of simple trust in God!" "As my son Craig lay under that table in the school library and saw his two friends murdered before his very eyes, He did not hesitate to pray in school. I defy any law or politician to deny him that right!
      
      I challenge every young person in America, and around the world, to realize that on April 20, 1999, at Columbine High School prayer was brought back to our schools. Do not let the many prayers offered by those students be in vain. Dare to move into the new millennium with a sacred disregard for legislation that violates your God-given right to communicate with Him."

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         Shadesbreathposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         This statement you've put up here is what's known in fallacy circles as a red herring.  What that means is that, while on the surface it may seem to relate to the point, it is really a trick to misdirect attention from the point.
         
         I'm not saying you are doing it on purpose, you may actually believe it relates to the issue of prayer in schools, but it does not.  Here's why:
         
         That quote has a child frightened, huddled under a desk, witnessing a horror.  He is praying, as most would, hell, even as probably 90% of atheists would, in that situation.  He would be praying in that situation whether he was at a school shooting, a shooting at a mall, in a court room, or any other place.  Huddling under furniture witnessing shootings does that to people.
         
         Nobody anywhere in the country is or ever has, not one time in any instance at all, suggested that during times of crisis, individuals may not pray.  They have not outlawed private, personal prayers in times of terror. To suggest that anyone ever tried to make a law mandating that that boy tremble under his desk during a shooting, or an earthquake or a tornado or whatever else but was legally barred from having the right to pray is ludicrous.  Not only ludicrous, it's a lie.  It's also a rhetorical fallacy known as a red herring.
         
         At no point, ever, anywhere, has anyone tried to suggest that kids at school can't pray over their meals, pray before class or anything else either.  A prayer, to "communicate with Him" is perfectly legal.  It is the organized, group prayers, officially put on by the teachers that is the ACTUAL issue here.  Not private, personal prayers done as seems important or needed by an individual believer.  The officially sanctioned, "let's all pray" thing is the actual issue, and that is a problem because that is not separation of church and state, it is merging of church and state.
         
         That is the issue.  I hope this helps you see it more clearly so that you don't think there are some mean guys out there trying to pass moronic laws barring terrified children from praying during crisis, or even praying before lunch. 

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            Sundaymomentsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Never have I ever thought that what one person (child or an adult) cannot pray to themselves. I believe it is quit obvious that one can pray to themselves. To assume that I am misleading by the statements of this thread is ridiculous.
            
            As an individual we cannot be forced to stop silently praying (I think the common person would know this) however I see that you tried to nick pick the written statement.
            
            Unless you know how a government can stop one person from praying to themselves.
            
            I believe a person with common sense and a little intelligence would know what was being said in this posted thread.

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               Shadesbreathposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Easy there, Tex, my reply wasn't even to you.  I did appreciate the quality of your indignation, but, yeah, wasn't actually addressing anything you said in my post.
               
               As far as the post and its quote, and what it said, the quote itself is fine, but to use that quote in the context of an argument about separating church and state as applied to the organized prayer in school is a red herring, because that kid in the quote is not participating in an organized prayer.  So, including that quote is including something that has no relationship to the actual issue.  In essence, the attempted argument being made with that quote is:  Because that boy was scared and praying during the crisis, state-funded schools should have official prayer meetings.
               
               I'm not even saying schools shouldn't have prayer (I think they absolutely shouldn't, but that's not my point here). What I am saying is using that quote does not support the argument for state sanctioned prayer in public school.  Some other argument might help make the case, but that argument does not because it is a red herring, or perhaps a non sequitur depending on how you want to look at it.

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               Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               It is only with common sense and a little intelligence can we conclude that people do in fact pray to themselves.

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            Onusonusposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Oh yeah?! Is it a red herring?! Or is it in fact sir, so direct and to the point that you just blew your mind!!!!
            Could it possibly be that future of prayer in school will be so regimented by the left wing gestapo patrols that the end result of such a social taboo, and politically incorrect action will cause the impressionable minds of our future generations to hesitate to pray during catastrophic events? What say you then?!
            I can not be stopped! You will never be able to supress my God given right to unprecidented fear mongering!
            
            Be affraid! Because the liberals are building their underground army of robot ninjas, they will invade your homes and force you to drink koolaid while watching Rachel Maddows all day long.......

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               Shadesbreathposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               It's true!  I am terrified.  (I do hope the robot-ninja's will be hot, sort of semi-pornographic versions of Stepford wives at least.)

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         Stump Parrishposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Darrell Scott was a father who was grieving over the loss of a child and made that statement. The treaty of Tripoli ia an official government document that explained the government's position on America being founded as a christian nation and reads like this:
         
         Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
         
         When this treaty was signed it was published in newspapers across the country and no where did the America people rise up in anger at these words. There were no reports of rioting or any kind of mayhem over the truthful statement that America wasn't founded as a christian nation.
         
         This treaty was reproduced and given to all senators in congress and for what I believe was only the second time, congress demanded it be read and voted on with the vote being recorded in the congressional record.
         
         I am not trying to diminish the anguish this father suffered. I am simply stating that official government documents carry a little more wieght than a grieving father.
         
         You can go to the library of congress and see some of the original newspapers that published the treaty and the related government documents. Nothing personal but I prefer verifiable facts to opinions in all matters I consider. For the life of me I can't figure out why so many people prefer to live a lie.
         
         BTW, before you throw out the oft repeated statement that this is only one example of the governments position on America being considered a christian nation, remember that it is the only official statement from the government of the USA, ever.

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            Onusonusposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Ah, there's one of the robot ninjas now.

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      Flightkeeperposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I understand what you're saying, you think there has been a relaxation of civilities.  I would agree with you, I don't think that installing prayer in schools however would fix that.

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      ediggityposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Religion brought by the Puritans helped start of the formalized school system as we know today.  Prayer in school should be a choice.  Pledge to the Flag and country should be mandatory.
      
      http://www.bls.org/podium/default.aspx?t=113646

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      Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      What reports and trending are you basing these claims upon? Please provide the statistics that show this trending or else we can only conclude these are your personal opinions and not anything that is valid.

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   Cagsilposted 13 years ago

   

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      Paul Wingertposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I'm am all for seperating religion from government. The next thing to do is do away with "In God We Trust" on our currency. Religion definatly has no business in schools unless the subjecthas to do with the history of a particular religion. Christian "values" is a bunch of BS and get with hte times. Is it a Christian "value" to discriminate against homosexuals, Muslims or any other group of people that the Bible preaches against?

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         Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         yes, religion and politics are very much intertwined - is there any country where this is not the case?

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      Stevennix2001posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      

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         Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Interesting....

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            Stevennix2001posted 13 years agoin reply to this

            I agree. i find it interesting you laugh at those that have differing opinions of that of yourself.

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               Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               A differing opinion than myself?
               
               That's why you think I was laughing?

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                  Stevennix2001posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Then why were you laughing then?  whats so funny if you don't mind me asking?

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                     Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     Do you ask every person you see laughing, why they are laughing? If not, then you have no need or reason to be asking me. I found laughter in the OP. That is all you need know.
                     
                     Seems right to me. How about you?

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                        Stevennix2001posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        oh sorry then.  i didn't mean to be rude. i thought you might have been laughing at my friend, who you posted under.  sorry.

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                           Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                           When I began my post. Just the OP was here. The other poster, apparently submitted before I did. No apology necessary.

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   William R. Wilsonposted 13 years ago

   I remember when the church could take anyone they pleased off the streets and torture them until they confessed to witchcraft.  Then they'd burn them at the stake. 
   
   It was great.  Seems like people were so much more moral back then!

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      Paul Wingertposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      If you look back a few hundred years, most of Europe was a church state, like how most of the middle east is today. I had a direfct decendent back in 1749 Switzerland who was tortured and killed by church officials because he missed too much mass. So when you look back (and present on some countires) on atrocities committed  in the name of religion, you'd really appreciate seperation of church and state.

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      couturepopcafeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      William, Wow, you really look good for your age! 

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   Diane Insideposted 13 years ago

   To tell the truth I really don't care what they do in the schools, since I don't have children. They can do whatever they please.

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      Sundaymomentsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I have read all the postings of this thread. I have kept an open mind to my original thread posting and I can see the points of each and every true posting. However what can be done about the loss of our countries true good ethical morals and practices.
      
      Though I can see the point that has been made to keep church and state separate; what steps can be done as a country to reinstate the foundation of our country: Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness

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   pylos26posted 13 years ago

   And she jumped on her horse and rode off in all directions.

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      earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      never heard that one before...

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   Disappearingheadposted 13 years ago

   As a believer in Jesus I support a separation of church and state. State sponsored religion has historically led to oppression by those who dissent against the state's religion. In Europe the state sponsored the church's oppression of those that refused to accept papal authority. In Islamic countries this sort of abuse still continues. Turkey is a secular state where the population is Islamic, but people of other faiths are happily accepted.
   
   Once a state separates from religion, then the religion has no power or authority to oppress. For all those who expect to see some world anti-christ dominating the Earth Revelation stylie, he is only able to oppress because he will be sponsored by the state system.
   
   To believe that America went down hill becasue prayer was taken out of school is a nonsence. The world was changing anyway away from adherance to religious beliefs. Britain has seen exactly the same sort of declines in our schools as America but here we still have school assemblies where the childrem pray and sing hymns. By law Schools must have a weekly assembly where Christianity is the predominant focus, though fully accepting the rights of some children to be of other faiths.
   
   Just like America, Britians worst school sins was chewing gum and saying some naughty anglo saxon words. The change was due to the change our societies as a whole and nothing to do with church and state.

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   Onusonusposted 13 years ago

   Watch in  horror.........
   

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   psycheskinnerposted 13 years ago

   If you think all things are better when all people are forced to worship your God, then there will be no explaining the Founder's wishes to you.  Basically they wanted to give people freedom of worship--to worship if and as they pleased without oppression.

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   Home Girlposted 13 years ago

   We have to teach our kids how to control their emotions,how to develop self-esteem and understanding their own and other peoples' problems. We have to learn as a society not to push bad food, violent movies,excessive medication, agressive bahavior to our consumers, to our children, not to pollute their bodies and minds,first -  bodies, then - minds!Back to the future is not going to happen.
   To handle a bad situation without violence, depression, drug abuse, desperation etc. can be taught and will be in future. I firmly believe that. We have lots of powers within us, just have to learn how to develop and how to use them. Fear was never a progressive force. Either fear of Society, God, Devil, monkey on a tree or of anything else, you name it.

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    Jeramiposted 13 years ago

    Thinking out loud !
    
       Einstine says everything is relative !!!   
       Maybe there is too much separation between all things already!
    
       Maybe we should start getting rid of all that separation of this and that and all come together,
    
    
        But where do ya start    and where should we stop!   HUM !  OH well...  sigh.

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    wilmiers77posted 13 years ago

    Prayer in public schools is a partisan to God, not to a religion. So, is America promoting atheism nowdays? I very well think so! This was not a probable until one person, Madeline O'hare, supported by a hand full of people protested. Since when does a small minority dictate to the rest of us Americans?
    
    The fact is that principalities in America decided to go atheist who are another handful of powerful persons. Our oligarchy is not in Washington D.C., but is in corporate boards.

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    wilmiers77posted 13 years ago

    Sunday golfers at country clubs decides on the golf course which way America moves. To them, God is dead; they are the little gods of America.

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