So what is it exactly that theist find so abhorrent with theists. What is it about believers that fries their brain, palpitates their heart, wrenches their gut, chills their bone, and bends their psyche to the point of rupture?
Converesely, what is it about atheists that they would spend so much time, attention, and energy refuting something that they don't believe even exists? Is it because God is actively pursuing them, because he created them (via the evolutiuonary process?) and the earth they are on, and the universe they are sorrounded by, with the pure intention that they would come to know Him?
Most of the atheists are angry with God because of bad experiences in their past. It frustrates them when believers have discussions in a forum about a God who they claim doesn't exist. I absolutely believe that God is actively pursuing them.
How can you be angry with something you don't believe in?
I actually have never had a bad experience with religion. I used to go to church as a kid but I was only interested in the singing.
I ignore religious threads usually because you are free to believe what you want and I'm not interested but I will not ignore a thread that IS attacking atheists.
The tone of the OP is not to attack atheist.. I just would like (for once) honest answers to the questions posted above... questions that mind you I have asked atheist on other forums, and the answer I got was silence or ranting accusations that my belief in God is irrational, and as such delusional, and as such insane... thus I need to be committed to an insane aylum with padded white walls.
univited writer, Good question. I often wonder how a unbeliever could speak badly about a God who they claim doesn't exist. Perhaps, they are aware of God's existence, but refuse to admit it. It's their choice. I was not stating that all atheists had a bad experience. Actually, I have not noticed you in the religious forums speaking badly about a God, which many of us believe in.
You know WOC, that's one of the problems. They are not speaking about a god, per se, they are talking about the belief people have in one that does not exist.
No, it's not a problem. Your statement is no excuse. Have a good night Cagsil.
It wasn't an excuse and if you could see past yourself long enough, then you would realize it.
It was a direct explanation. Something many religious are not used to.
What is really obtuse is that the mass majority of people want to dictate their lifestyle to atheist. They are so certain that their god exist that they will kill you for it or just make your life miserable for thinking they are completely out of their minds.
Yet, as small as the populous of atheist are, they just cannot leave a small number of people alone. Instead, they insist that atheist are just "stupid", "immoral", "whores", "murders", "gay" and anything else that doesn't jive well with their beliefs.
I for one think it is total bull larky and I wish they would stop trying to pressure the world into become like them or believing in their god so the world can be a better place.
Their total obstruction of justice makes me want to vomit, their "cry baby" antics "oh they are picking on me" bs is also pretty nauseating.
I simply cannot stand how they persist in falsifying information, dummying up science so that the people they pass it on to also get misinformation and then the whole slew of them is so sure that everyone but themselves is wrong that it is simply worth dying for.
How in the world such a large number of people can feel persecuted by such a minority of people is beyond me which is why atheist should give um hell, at least make their story believable.
As is, it is easier to pick on a small number of atheist then it is to fix their masses to make them more moral human beings.
I see the self proclaimed Atheists here in the hubpage forums being just as much if not more quilty of those things that they acuse believers of being.
I do not believe that they are so blind that they do not see this to be true.
How funny is that?
I've been in the religion/Judaism and religion/ChristianityJesusetc threads
and there is not one that has not been interrupted by posters telling the forum posters that their religion is stupid, irrelevant, etc.
Most of it is highly disrespectful and dismissive(there are also posters from other religions that are disrespectful as well, but that is for another thread)
I do not see any of the more common disrespectful posters posting in this thread.
I have not seen any atheist threads, so I have no idea if they get the same treatment from the theists.(or Deists/Pantheists/Antheists/etc)
Frankly, I'd like to discuss...for example... if Moses was considered a prophet without being lambasted. (from viewing a thread in the Judaism forum. There is some discussion, then, a post from someone who seems to not realize he is in a Judaism thread and not a Christianity thread, then an onslaught of irrelevant discussion of the validity of the Bible. Please, look at it, this is what people are disgusted with)
If the same thing is going on in other threads (atheism, deism, etc) this is just further evidence that something has to be done to end the backbiting and disrespect that is overwhelming the religion forums.
Liz "I may disagree with you but I'm pretty sure you're not Hitler" G
It's not about just making the world a better place, it's not even about good or bad, it's about entering the eternal lake of fire or salvation.
What a hypocritical view. Your statements are judgmental and condescending to and about non-believers, and then you wonder why you are being verbally attacked. My Grandma used to say, we always pass judgement on those who are exactly like us. Hmm, seems in this case my grandmother was wise and correct!
BTW, My Grandma was a religious Christian, I am not!
I disagree with you. I never stated all unbelievers are angry with God. Have you not read any of the rude, hateful posts against God and the bible in the forums? I never wonder at all why I am being verbally attacked. I have been verbally attacked because I am a christian who believe in God, and I speak boldly on my faith when needed. It seems to me, you are the one judging me. hypocritical view? I think not.
"Have you not read any of the rude, hateful posts" No, sorry WOC, I do not usually read your posts
"It seems to me, you are the one judging me." Maybe, the word paranoid would be the better word used in your case WOC?
BTW, My first comment was in no way addressed to you or at you.
Hi Whitka, Sorry, I appologize for addressing the post to you. No, paranoid is not the better word.
You can't be serious when you write like that.
This is my answer to your question: " What is it about believers that riles non-believers?"
I'm not an atheist, nor am I a believer in metaphysical myth.
The gripe I have with "believers" in the god of monotheism is their abject ignorance in ref to the deadly history of that which they believe in!
The profound insanity of it!
Their bigotry involves naught but imagination!
They have been involved in power and control for a couple millenia and they are still inundated in it.
Monotheism has been the bane of human progress!
Monotheism will probably perpetrate the prophecy of armageddon.
Any contemporary human being who uses the gray matter twixt his ears should be able to understand the extremity of the danger facing all life on this planet. Danger created by primitive superstition, fear and greed!
It's bad enough that we are programmed killers! Without adding to it the sheer lunacy of teachings from fairytale, psychotic god/s which fly into rages of anger and jealousy and demand the murder of tens of thousands of "its" children...then end up destroying all life but a few.
My gripe is self imposed "human ignorance!"
Ignorance that jeopardizes the existence of billions of years of evolved life! Ignorance that will, probably, regress man back to the stone age.
If you can't see this then I see you as an educated man who lacks "intelligence."
Whew indeed!!!!!! Thank God (Not being facetious here) you got that out of your system. I have always reminded anyone who would listen that any belief system typically starts as a benign concept in its initial construct, but then in its progression becomes perverted by humans who when given or assumes absolute power are corrupted absolutely by acting beyond the natural constraints of the belief system.
The Crusades is but one example of what I am referring to, and would be the eternal stain on the face of Christianity... just as the jihad would become the eternal stain on the face of Islam.
I am obviously referring to the pure concept of the belief in God unfetterd by and un-burdened by human hands. So if atheists contend that they do not believe in God because of the all too-human (sinful) action of believers....then would you consider that a valid reason?
"I am obviously referring to the pure concept of the belief in God unfetterd by and un-burdened by human hands. So if atheists contend that they do not believe in God because of the all too-human (sinful) action of believers....then would you consider that a valid reason?"
I can't answer that.
You speak of this "god" thing. What is it other than an imagined concept?
There are no scriptures in any monotheistic tome that defines this "god" thing in any manner but opinion and conjecture.
Until "it" can be defined in other than opinion or conjecture, I cannot, intellectually, respond.
Those who refer to themselves as "atheists," haven't thought this "god" thing out. They cannot deny what cannot be defined. They can deny the concept of this god thing, but until it can be, literally, defined, it remains naught but a figment of human imagination. Certainly unworthy of an "intelligent" mans consideration.
The human creature that guides his life by a belief in the imagined, is a lunatic!
Half of the human species is "NUTS!'
Again very perceptive of you to say that "God" is just an imagined concept, but nonetheless a concept that demands our (theists) due attention and consideration because we have invested in it meaning and purpose and verity( not physically quantifiable of course).
If you have to assume that everything in the universe could be explained by a rational mind (brain) through whatever objectivist, reductionist venue ( i.e. science, et al), then I suppose, from the scientific/anatomic point of view, one could say that the reason why some people are theists, and other people are not , is because their neuronal connections took different and opposite pathways. Now if you dissect the brain of an atheist, and the brain of a theist, would you find any macroscopic or microscopic difference. Of course not. But that does not mean that the connections are not there that led to the formation of that belief system and not this belief system.
Now Atheists would posit that they do not believe in the existence of God . Period. I would assume that they believe so because? Did their rational mind go to the process of actually introspecting the concept of a God? Or did they just think it outright?.... again the concept of a different neuronal connections, and pathways.
You are again right in saying that humans that guide their lives by a belief in the imagined is a lunatic, but not when humans invest in that what they imagined with meaning, purpose, verity. A God that exist even if He does not assume a physical quantifiable form.
"...we have invested in it meaning and purpose and verity( not physically quantifiable of course)."
How can that which is just imagined , have real "... meaning and purpose and verity...?"
Why would you, in your words, "...invest in it, meaning and purpose and verity" when it is but an unverifiable, imagined concept? That would mean, to a "thinker," that you base your belief in this "god" thing on naught but "hope." If "hope" is all you have to guide your life, would that be considered to be rational or reasonable?
That would be absurd!
The contemporary human brain is the result of about 4 millions yrs of evolution.
The anomaly "consciousness," is naught but the result of the processes of natural selection.
As the "human" became more aware, its intellectual evolution sped up.
As the 2 frontal lobes evolved, as you well know, mans awareness was being increased at light speed. Mans brain and intellect raced forward, evolved very rapidly.
The world surrounding was enigmatic! "He" was not yet able to understand Any of what existed.
Death was one of those puzzling events.
As "mans" awareness evolved, questions arose he was not yet sophisticated enough to understand and answer.
He was not yet evolved to the point that he could deal with the fear that was created by all that surrounded him.
He in, abject ignorance, sought solace and safety. He created the 'supernatural" to alleviate the fear that was caused by superstition and ignorance.
As he became a more sophisticated "animal," his beliefs in the supernatural had to evolve beyond an ability to disprove them. He created "gods." Gods are imagined. There is/was no way to disprove their existence. Hence the eventuality of monotheism!
More than 1/2 of contemporary humanity still grovels at the feet of imagined supernatural entities.
In my mind, they (believers) constitute the lesser evolved of the human species and may be the perpetrators of a necessary reduction in the human populace.
They are, seemingly, hell bent upon the realization of "end-of-times."
The absurdly religious may be the catalyst needed to reduce the human species to a governable number.
Homo/sapiens is still an infant in the crib gazing out at its surroundings in absolute wonder!
Since as you said God's existence could not be disproved either, let's just call it a draw and call it a day. You keep believing that God is a fairy tale concocted by a very primitive human mind, during a period when natural earthly/heavenly (not in the biblical sense) phenomenon could not be explained except on the basis of someone supernatural. And I'll keep believing that God exist because those same earthly phenomenon, that are now explainable by scientific methodologies are in fact manifestations of a God that gave order to earth and the heavens that allowed those phenomenon to be manifested to and be sensed by sophisticated humans.
The concept that believers "constitute the lesser evolved of the human species", is quite a s-t-r-e-t-c-h, even by your pessimistic and nihilistic standards.
So what exactly is your problem with "hope". It' s a good feeling to hope that tomorrow till be better than today. It's a good feeling to hope that the object of one's desires, is also hoping that you desire him/her back. Hope is not a passive feeling because with hope you are pushed to act so that what you are hoping would come true. For obvious reason hope could not be the sole guide to one's life... it should be coupled with trust, and love, and justice and honor, and dignity.
So you accept that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is just as valid a belief as yours in that case?
And - as you rightly point out - you cannot disprove any of the infinite number of possible gods. Therefore yours is infinitely improbable, is it not?
In all your anti-atheist rants, I have not seen you yet propose a definition of your Invisible Super Being. nor have I seen you rationally justify your belief in it, other than a suggestion that it gives you "hope."
Do you see this thread? The ill will and general bad feeling created by it? The animosity in the various responses - on both "sides" of this "draw" you propose?
Does that answer your opening question? Do you understand that your belief in an Invisible Super Being and - perhaps more importantly - your desperate need to promote and defend this belief (which incidentally proves beyond reasonable doubt that your faith is extremely weak) - is what causes all the fights? And the reason why many atheists (myself included) take umbrage with your irrational beliefs.
Do you not grasp why you are so desperate to defend this belief? This is called cognitive dissonance. The weaker the belief - the more powerfully you will defend it.
And before you turn that around instead of actually thinking about what I am saying - I am not defending my belief. I do not have one. I am attacking yours in the hope you will stop spreading this nonsense and causing so many fights.
But you cannot help it can you? You must spread it. It is anyone who does not agree with you that is the problem. Anyone suggesting your Invisible Super Being does not exist is attacking you personally.
The solution is simple. Do you see it? No monotheistic preaching. No one telling you it is nonsense.
This is too obvious, I have to call you out.
You do have a belief, telling me you do not lets me know that you anticipate this analysis of your argument
So, your argument sounds like this:
If you believe in your belief, then you will defend it (as you are defending yours)
If you do not believe in your belief, then you will defend it (as other people defend theirs)
Therefore, the people defending their beliefs do not believe it.
I know you have a belief because no theist would call their personal god a "Flying Spaghetti Monster" or "Invisible Super Being". It is pretty transparent.
I am sorry you get unwarranted one-sided theological rants, they are disrespectful.
Sorry you cannot understand what I said, but I am loving the "respect" you show me by rephrasing what I said to make it sound like something you want to hear.
DO you "love" me so much you had to do it for my own good?
I do not have a belief.
I do not respect your beliefs if you hold a monotheistic belief.
I do not, will not and can not respect a belief system that causes so much strife.
If you hold a genuine faith-based belief - there would be utterly no need to defend it.
Why do you disrespect other's beliefs yet demand respect for yours? The Flying Spaghetti Monster is as valid a belief as any.
you infer love as you do most everything else. There is no disrespect in calling someone to defend or support their beliefs. What you want is everyone to lay down their beliefs and adopt yours and the support you have for us to do this is your use of name calling, so i guess you do not love us either. Point taken.
no morals none
enjoy your spaghetti
I've commented on this before, but you don't seem to pick it up.
There is NO monotheistic scripture that defines this "god" thing that you chronically mention, in terms other than opinion and conjecture. NONE. What is it? Once we have a "literal" definition of "it," we can then "hub" about the subject of existence. Until then, we can't even call it a draw.
Hope is wonderful, but it is not something that would guide my life.
My stint, in my early 20's as a seminarian, opened my eyes to the FACT that myth and superstition DID AND STILL DOES...RULE the lives of "believers."
You mention: "...trust, and love, and justice and honor, and dignity.," Pls! The history of monotheism is rife with guile, hate, death, suffering, injustice, dishonor and absurdity.
This biblical "god" thing is a murdering psychopath.
If you haven't studied the history and evolution of your beliefs, I can understand your reticence. If you have, you ignore the psychopathic thought and activity of this man created, super divinity.
I am a "pessimist." Study the current state of mankind and explain to me why I shouldn't be.
Nihilist? which connotation of the word do you refer to?
Villa, if you are a doctor, (very esoteric field of endeavor) put as much study into the realm of "reality" as you have in your medical studies. You need an epiphany that lights up that dim bulb of knowledge and understanding floating there above your head.
No, I don't get heart palpitations etc. Judging from some of the reactions on here, I'd say it's the believers that get more riled up.
Good for you that believers and their rabid imposition of their belief system on non-believers does not affect you in any physical way. Your built-in antenna for bull.......must be working overtime.
It is the spiritual that I am worried about.
yes i do get riled up! There is so much lying by the other side and when called to cite their misinformation they mysteriously disappear only to surface somewhere else as though they had never said a dumb thing in their lives.
Christlikeians enjoy truth and the bible is our source of truth, if one cannot compete or accept that then another forum would be better suited, preferably somewhere where they don't have to lie all the time because they are so peed at themselves for failing: OR enter into debate honestly and uprightly here as we are glad to share OUR truth according to the word of God with context included.
have a nice day.
Considering that these answers are available in many threads throughout these forums, it is obvious this question is being asked not to gain any insight but instead to insult those who do not share the beliefs of the theist.
Of course, we have to wonder if the author of the OP was compelled to ask this question oblivious to the fact that theists themselves exhibit those characteristics from one religion to the next, even within their very own religious sects.
Yes, why do others bother to attempt snapping indoctrinated cult members back to reality? Their hatred of mankind, their penchant to see Armageddon and devotion to the myths and superstitions of the Bronze Age that have created the world we live in today might have something to do with it.
While the indoctrinated theist is unable to think, they are also unable to fathom a world where their own personal god does not exist, oblivious to the fact that millions of other theists personal gods swirl round them, one fantasy in amongst the many layers of fantasies, a reality created to supplant the realities of others along with the reality of the world around us.
So, before the indoctrinated theist asks these questions, can they ask themselves first why they are unable to see all these other gods actively pursuing them?
Rest assured that this theist is not in any way, manner, or form, going to disabuse your from your atheistic inclinations.
If history is to be any guide, it is people, who have the power to impose ( by physical means if necessary) their perverted beliefs, on all of us that you and I should be mindful of, not the theists on HubPages, whose only wish is for atheists to express in non-demeaning way why belief in God is a non- starter as a debating concept.
Atheists, by definition, reject ouright the notion of God's existence without much thought or introspection. i.e. I don't believe in God. Period. No discussion. I don't and I won't consider any evidence to the contrary. Period, Taht's it. Take it or leave it. Which is fine I suppose.
Given that man has a mind which assuages his sentience, his volition, his creativity, I would assume that atheist do formulate in their minds that belief in God is "irrational" because it is not grounded in physical reality. Which is fine, up to a point.
It is the concept that humans and their natural environment (inanimate and animate objects) do not possess any spiritual , mystical, transcedental meaning, that I reject totally.
Obviously you can not unhinge me from my belief any more than I can separate you from yours.
So live and let live.
P.S. I am not being "pursued "by God or by any other "gods" because unlike you I have already accepted Him.
So stop running away Beelzedad, because one of these days, you might find yourself "cornered", not in any physical way, and then what are you going to do?
So, you don't recognize any other religions and the gods their followers claim to exist? LOL! How convenient.
Hilarious, it's as if the myths and superstitions you embrace actually have an effect on anything or anyone.
Well you are countering my arguments with yours... so yes my myths and superstition is actually having an effect on you... of all people. Imagine that.
You can answer that yourself when you ask yourself why you believe in the god you do and have rejected all others.
Please try not to place your own personal and biased definitions on words already defined. Thanks.
Hilarious. You now create fabrications and put them in the mouths of others. Is this not what you would say when other gods are presented to you?
Your assumptions aren't even close. Obviously, you have not been reading the posts of others.
Would that be the belief in a particular god you've been indoctrinated to believe in since childhood? What about all the other gods? Funny how you still haven't addressed my question about them in my previous post. LOL!
I can only speak for myself, a monotheists. Now for reasons why other theists might believe in many gods... you will have to ask them that question.
I'm not an atheist. But I can tell you what riles me about the "believes" is their persistent desire to convert everyone to "believer" status - total devotion and submission to the Lord, etc.. Most are White Christians. They are too persistent. I had to threaten one once with bodily harm to get out of my face. He just wouldn’t STOP. And man, do they (the "believers") hate Jews. They really do. They all think the Jews are out to destroy Christianity in the US.
This is your comment: " And man, do they (the "believers") hate Jews. They really do. They all think the Jews are out to destroy Christianity in the US."
Jews are believers, so what do you mean when you say "believers hate jews?"
The first five books of the OT are called the pentateuch. The jews call it the torah. They are "believers." They just don't accept the concept of jesus christ.
I've also told proselytizers to get the hell outa my face! In those terms...lol.
Jews are believers in their faith and the ones I've met rarely profess to hating any other belief or faith. One must alson consder the persons character...I must confess I have mistrusted believers as well as non-believers with the same statement.
Atheist don't agree that someone should give their life up for faith in something that cannot be seen. They think that man is capable enough to discover all the answers.....egoism and arrogance.
Egoism and arrogance....these I already know having tangled with rabid atheists on HubPages.
Not so, atheist don't agree with taking lives or becoming a martyr for something that kills people who don't kill or become martyrs for something they cannot see.
This song has been sang before and I think most civilized people can agree on the error of killing people.
Atheists don't agree with taking lives, or becoming a martyr? Are you insinuating all believers do? If so, that is a very ignorant statement.
I'm not insinuating anything...you see, I don't distinguish between Atheists and believers but see them all as people. It's just that Atheists are easier to piss off. We have to get away from the WE vs THEY mentality in the real world.
Oh look...another thread attacking atheists...
This thread is not attacking atheists, these are simply true answers to the topic questions.
The enigma of earnestshub's smile.... not to be confused with Mona Lisa's
some people ridicule truth
Some ridicule what they don't understand also, and that's not good.
to Uninvited Writer:
I have slogged through pages of "Oh you theistic puny human" rant ...another attack on atheists?
This is the dance of the evangelizing dogmatic blow-hards, atheist species.
There are many.
Ah - I see what you mean by "lack of respect."
Didn't take you long to enter the fray did it?
look, im not an atheist but even i'll say that this forum is blantenly unwarranted. Seriously, I could understand WOC complaining how Atheists were attacking her thread asking people why they worship Jesus, as her thread wasn't even geared towards them, so I can sympathize with her, but this is just freaking ridiculous. Why are you opening up this thread? Do you like arguing with people? Are you a glutton for punishment?
Sheesh, who cares what other people think? The only thing that should matter is that YOU believe in your own beliefs, so shouldn't that be the only thing that's important?
Villarasa, why do you care about this so much? Seriously? You just made me lose all the respect I had for you because of this thread, did you know that?
My timing is bad.
If I had seen your post I might not have posted mine.
I'm sorry if i disappointed you. I am now asking the questions on this post because when I was discussing these issues with my atheist friends on HubPages, they never gave me an honest answer except to infer that my belief in God is irrational and that I was delusional and should be committed to an insane asylum.
I thought that this would be their absolute chance to clear the air.
Yes, but by calling out a particular group, it only sets you up to look prejudice against non believers. I could understand if you opened up a different forum, alongside this one, calling out religious people there just to keep things fair, but you didn't do that. Hence, it's not going to end well for you.
I can understand what your saying, and I don't disagree with your latest explanation. However, the way your approaching this issue is fairly dangerous and could potentially get you banned from forums, along with possibly losing your hubpage account if your not too careful.
I do appreciate your concerns, and I think they are valid. The tone of my post is definitely non-accussatory, in the sense that I am not targeting one particular group for my excoriation. I just want well thought out answers to the questions I raised above... questions that I have already asked them in other forums but have not gotten an honest answer.
Perhaps, the request for therapy is not because you believe in an invisible sky fairy, but because you believe in only one of thousands of invisible sky fairies theists claim exist, and you can't see the rest of them.
Beelzedad: Another one of your gibberish?
HE ONLY WANTS well thought out answers to the questions he raised above
another answer would be atheists can't comprehend what they read very well
stevennix, For some strange reason, the thread which I recently started is closed to reply. Wonder why is that? I am checking into this. You are definitely right. My thread was seriously attacked by unbelievers.
Well good luck with that WOC. However, I will say this about most people you debate in forums, and I mean this in the most generally basic way, so nobody here can claim I'm pointing out a particular group. People who often seek debates in forums seem to have a debate style where they try to insinuate a lack of intelligence and/or subtle hints of insults. This is done, so you'll get mad, and it'll only prove their point further to say that your a irrational ignorant person blinded by faith or whatever. As anyone that's ever debated before will tell you, it's far more easier to prove that someone is wrong when you can get them to be overly emotional; hence irrational.
BOTH sides have certain people who debate like this, and I'm not going to name names, but anyone that naively says I'm wrong is an idiot. That's just the truth. Trust me, if being a salesman ever taught me anything, it's the knowledge on how to read people and read in between the lines of what they REALLY mean behind their words. Therefore, most people on forums are not too hard to figure out, as I can read people here fairly well. Sure, there's a few I have a hard time reading, but most of you are fairly predictable in your statements.
edit: Just thought I'd offer you free advice and tell you not to let your emotions get in the way if you debate someone in forums, as the person who argues with you...WANTS that from you.
You are right. I may have been annoyed every once in a while, but I never allow unbelievers to cause me to be angry. It's not worth it. I can relate to what you mean by reading people behind their words. Thanks Stevennix.
I always try to avoid personal attacks and insults as much as possible. In my view, since I'm right, I don't have to get angry about anything, I just have to let the logic do the talking for me, and the incorrectness of the believer or theist will become manifestly obvious.
Since I have such a high regard for you, I am going to pretend that I did not read the statement you posted above.
I would like to think that on HubPages, arrogance and hubris should be the sole purview of Mr. Knowles and his avid disciples.
I don't see how what I said constitutes arrogance. If I didn't think I was correct, why would I be promoting or defending my ideas?
Do you not think what you believe is correct?
You believing that you are correct does not necessarily follow that I am incorrect. So for you to say that since you believe you are correct, then I must be incorrect.... is hubristic in my corner of the forrest.
Truth could be interpreted one way or two ways or three ways. So to infer that yours is the only correct interpretation of the truth is arrogance in its highest form.
There is only one objective truth.
If I believe 1+1=2, and you believe that 1+1=3, then I am correct and you are incorrect. You can call that hubris if you want, but then you must call many, many people hubristic and arrogant.
You are a doctor. If I said to you "there are 100 bones in the human body" you would call me incorrect. Does that make you "arrogant"? No, it makes you committed to the objective truth, and interested in correcting false ideas. What's so terrible about that.
You would qualify as "arrogant" if you thought yourself inherently superior, inherently special, and constantly rubbed it in everyone's face. That qualifies as exaggerating your own worth or importance, in an overbearing manner, which is, by definition, arrogance.
What is it about believers that riles non-believers?
I believe in the Father,Son,and holy Ghost and I seem to rile both Atheist and Theist. Why?
I only asked this question because you might find an honest answer to yours in your answer to mine.
As far as I am concerned, the belief in God and the belief in evolution are not mutually exclusive.
The fallacy presented here shows one of three things, the author has no familiarity with evolution or has no familiarity with the concept of hard evidence, or both.
So tell me, what am I missing re: evolutionary concepts or concept of hard evidence. As I told you when it comes to your thoughts I am all ears.
You appear to be missing any understanding of evolution and the concept of hard evidence. Is there some reason why I need to repeat this?
So I assume you don't understand the concepts either cause you could not even explain it to me...
i know... evolution is a theory... i do not ever remember it graduating to a fact of evolution... It probably aligns the theory that those who want to go to disneyland will eventually evolve there.
Read the following maybe? http://www.notjustatheory.com/
You two have not been to God Lands in Disneyland!!! - Healng Revival
I have been attacked in the USA for building 2000 ton evolution displays.
More armchair psychology - opining on why folks do what they do. Any more chestnuts on the fire?
What is it about believers that riles non-believers?
Plain and simple- irrationality in the beliefs of the believers.
When their own words work against them and they don't see it, makes for irrationality.
Any individual can read for themselves the nonsense contained within the bible and every other religious book in existence. The problem lies when people lie to themselves about a fictional god no one can honest prove to themselves exists. Then, have the nerve to open their mouth about their belief, which is completely irrational.
When any one individual reads any religious book/scripture and not ask themselves why any god would force them by choice to go against their own nature? It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
I'm sure you believe in free will, as much as you believe in the irrationality of believing in the existence of God. Those are not mutually exclusive.
I don't believe in free will. I know it exists because I can free think and act.
The belief in the existence of a god is pure irrationality.
And, the belief of a god is mutually attached to free will, because of the ability to free think. It is the actions of the those who do believe in the existence of a god that is irrational.
Forming a belief based on some supreme power, which controls life or dictates life, which is irrational, because each person dictates their own life through actions and free thinking.
Sorry, your arguments are a little disjointed, so I am having a hard time understaning the progression from one statement to the next.
That's okay Whikat. I'm sure there happens to be more disjointedness in his own belief than in my words or even my body.
The irony is that you find all of these ironic.... disjointed mind, limbs and all.
Bravo! Now you are talking like the "God" You say you believe in. The thing that creeps me out the most about you Doc, is that if you are truly a working pediatrician, is the influence you have over helpless children.
I understand from your hubs, that you are not here for the money and the fame, so my only guess would be to get your jollies by starting threads like this.
Your Bedside manners could use a little work Doc But, then again I know you are just a spiritual, loving, being?
My...my..my I think I just met a hubber whose sense of the grotesque have acually not taken leave of all his senses.
A pity, beacuse I always thought HubPages is populated by people with some sense of humor.... oh I'm sorry, someone just reminded me that it is all about fame(?), money(?).
Nevermind Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. As I look at your posts through out this whole thread it is clear to me that religion may not be your biggest problem. I also understand why you claim to self medicate. Your answers tells a lot more about you than you think Doc?
I make no apologies in my disrespect for you.
when up against the wall.. anything will be said to seem superior.. oh my did that sound superior..
what really amazes me is that these non believers do not believe their lives will be better if they just let this part of them die. Forget the hassles and the false statement and the pretentious lies and misinformation and daily assaults on the psyche and give up on the forums. Why must they persist in keeping this part of themselves alive since it is just a pile of crap.
Good question for a shrink, i'd say.
And not just irrationality, Cagsil, - provocative-agressive manner of pushing it into your face. That's what puzzles me.
It doesn't puzzle me. The actions of believers simply proves they know not what they do and lack true knowledge of life. Not to mention, their actions also lack any form of wisdom.
i thought jesus said, forgive them they (unbelievers) know not what they do.
By provocative and aggressive manner, you meant physically? Hmm.... on HubPages?
why do non-believers get upset with believers?
If we wish to believe, that should not provoke attacks from the non-believers.
If we try to write each other here on hub pages, that should not provoke non-believers, but it does
start a thread about what Jesus has done in your life and you can bet the non-believers will jump in telling us, we are deranged.
but if that is how they feel, that is OK.
every one is different and that is what makes every thing interesting
Those are just the realities of online public forums and public communities, you can't expect everyone to agree with you and for everyone to let your beliefs go unchallenged.
Wait, What? I can't expect everyone to agree with me?!?!
So are you saying that I need to feel strong enough in my beliefs to handle being challenged and basically get over myself? Next thing I know you will be saying I need to grow up! Never!
How easy it must seem....to lay blame and feed discord..........these things are not among our mission or instruction.
Love, leadership, humanity....are.
Let us focus on those.
I am not an atheist or 'believer' so this question is not technically aimed at me but what the hell, I wanna answer anyway
What gets to me is the 'believers' absolute lack of faith! The definition of the word faith I use in that sentence is, the strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather then proof. When I see someone tell the world that their version of religion is fact they are not proclaiming faith, they are proclaiming a fact (one of which cannot be proven and as such cannot be fact). This is hypocrisy and ignorance as even the religions these people proclaim to be true facts will somewhere in their doctrine state that the beliefs are to be believed on Faith and cannot actually be proven. This is the mystery of God, can't be proven and can only be believed on faith. Now if you want to tell me that you know God exists as fact then I will think you arrogant, hypocritical, ill-informed and totally lacking in faith!
This is why I have only ever felt mild annoyance with an atheist, and then only because I think they could be bordering on disrespectful to those who are honest about their faith. I believe in a universal spirit often refereed to as God but I don't need anyone else to follow my example or 'do as I say' (unless I am feeling like getting my overlord hat out!). If Mark Knowles or Earnest do not agree with me and say that my feeling there is a universal spirit (god) is silly then I shot back with a silly response, why should I care if they don't agree with me? I still like both and have a lot of respect for both (more so then the 'believers' out there). I will respect your right to not believe in a God if you respect my right to feel a sense of faith that there is. Who knows I could be totally wrong and ya know what, thats cool! I find it fun to have a sense of faith about a universal spiritual consciousness and if I am wrong well at least I had fun.
Go in peace my atheist friends, and go into wisdom my 'true believer' friends (?)
Excellent debating points... if only atheist would do the same... then maybe I would not be posting my OP in the first place. By the way, I share your view about a universal spiritual consciousness.
Beautifully and respectfully written With that kind of attitude, I can see how you are at peace and have your great sense of humor.
Why thank you
I gotta say much of my humor comes from having watched to many cartoons as a kid, plus the persistent tendency toward watching all things that take the mickey out of serious subjects
What is it about believers that riles non-believers?
One reason might be their offending threads like this one.
Was that LOL for me or for Mr. Rich?
And you thought I would just so gently slip into that good night.. No such luck.
So here I am provoking another ruckus. What else is new?
Offending thread? Were you offended Mr. Rich?
Not at all. It might be offending for non-believers but I am an intimate lover of Son of God & the Dad God. In fact we love each other soooo much that you might mistakenly believe we are having a Threesome or incest
thats not love thats just sex... sex being a rudimentary expression of continuity but love being an expression of self denial for another being. The conversation you attempted to have can neither be expressed as love or sex.
again i am not disappointed in what you say.
So many Gods - so little time.
If I want to have faith in God, which one do I go for? I'll go with Christianity to make things a little easier. Then which? Catholic, Protestant or Anglican? Of those, then what ... the numbers make the choice overwhelming. All appear to have a valid claim in their own right as to their way of honoring God. This is a huge crossroads. A very confusing one.
Which begs the question - if the religious world can't get along and agree - why do believers (of different religions) expect the rest of the world to hold anything less than confusion/incredulity/belief?
Edit: and why doesn't God just sort the whole damn mess out. And I'm not talking about the believers/non-believers, I'm talking about which religion is the right one. That way - there may be more chance of unity full stop.
"Right and wrong" are relative. They are usually determined by a culture/society.
Now in ref to religion, there are many innocuous religions. I think you are referring to the 3 major monotheistic religions.
Catholics claim to have all the answers about this imagined "god" thing. Jews? they know they have the answers.
What is confusing is the FACT that, worldwide, there exist about 40,000 differing protestant sects! All of them claim to have interpreted biblical scriptures correctly!
Right or wrong? c'mon! right or wrong lies in the imagination of the believer. It's as simple as that. Pick one and go for it.
It's like asking: What is your favorite fairytale?
Study your bible and maybe you can create the "truly" right one!
Go with my blessing!
Thanks for that Qwark Though I shall steer clear of bible study. I'm sure my interpretation will involve a hefty dose of reality which will no doubt result in the birth of a whole new perspective that some will agree with, most won't and everyone else will debate over until the cows come home. And go to bed with the boredom of waiting for a conclusion.
I think I'm gonna stick with ... there is only One True Frog *Kermit is a hand puppet people*
Your droppings are so thought provoking I think I am developing a horrendous headache.
It is frogs like you that gives Kermit a bad name.
Oooof low blow Dr - Behavior unbecoming and all that.
Lucky that you are a doctor. I suggest you self-medicate. That should take care of a headache of amphibious proportions.
Hey Frog, I think it is illegal for a Dr. to self medicate?
Actually, it's not LEGAL in the United States for Doctors to write the own prescriptions. So, no it's not a misconception. It might be outside the U.S., but not IN the U.S.
I self medicate all the time, mostly OTC medications...... but obviously writing myself a prescription is a no-no.
You better check some other Doc...clearly ur self-medication is not working.
I can go as low as I want to.... but in the context of a frog, I just don't know where the high starts and the low begins.
What riles non-believers is that believers rule much of the world and make the policies that control the everyday lives of most people. For instance, in many parts of Europe they have blasphemy laws. In some parts of the Arab world you have to follow strict Islamic law. Even in the United States, it's nearly impossible to get elected to a high position in government if you don't at least claim to be a Christian.
Laws that oppress gays and women tend to have origins in religion. Sodomy laws were created by Christians. Even the word "Sodomy" has Biblical origins. In some states there are still laws prohibiting you from buying specific things, such as alcohol, on Sundays. Why Sundays? We all know why.
If believers would just keep their beliefs to themselves and stop pushing them on people, non-believers would be a lot less riled. You may have noticed that non-believers rarely get riled by fringe religious groups with no political influence.
Excellent points. So obvious, and yet so confounding to the religious.
"What do you mean? What's so wrong with putting the Ten Commandments in the local courthouse?"
Ohhh, nothing... lol.
You fnally found a soulmate in DB Cooper. And I so thought that the Secularist world is so devoid of "soul" and "passion"... until you and MR. Cooper arrived on the scene. Now I'm flabbergasted.
"Now I'm flabbergasted."
That's what she said...
Sorry, couldn't resist putting that in there.
Excellent points you raised... I agree with you and Secularist on this one. So now you should run for office, be elected and then give these religionists a dose of their own medicine.
Well I can self-medicate Cags, and do whenever I get a headache - and I'm not a doctor nor, clearly, as intelligent as one. I avoid actions that are likely to cause a headache, beyond that, I take a couple of headache tablets. I'd imagine a doctor would have at least that ability without finding him/herself up the creek.
So true.... so true.... but finding myself up the creek is so much more entertaining than sitting in my couch the whole day. So to the creek I go.
We are in accord. Couch sitting is not in my remit. Creek-wandering is - though I tend to make sure I have both paddles before I leave the bank.
what is it about "believers" that riles "non-believers" -
a) the believers must constantly proclaim their belief!
b) and they must constantly define belief and non-belief in a most self-righteous, condescending, and unbearably stuffy way!
that's part of it. but don't get me started! SO very tired of thread titles like this - with a built in judgment on others. Unnecessary and obnoxious I say.
you can turn those around and say the same about the non-believers
we are to proclaim our faith in the Lord, if some one looks in and do not want to read it, they can leave, I will not talk about them, I will talk with them if they choose to join in, we are to tell of the love of God to any one who will listen
i know i feel the same way about car salesman so yaknow what i do... i stay away from car lots. lol
@ A. Villarasa - better not to bother then. Sometimes we misjudge the more worthy of our opponents.
Believers like to pick and choose even how they read the 10 commandments.
Why not show all of them and what they relate to as well?
1st. Commandment, Exodus 20:3 “Thou shalt have no other gods before me”. Old Testament punishment - Deuteronomy 17:1-5 “And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heavens, which I have not commanded. Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing and shalt stone them with stones, till they die”. Deuteronomy 13:6-10, “If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is of thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. Thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God." Exodus 22:20 “He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed”. New Testament punishment - Mark 16:16 “He that believeth not, shall be damned”.
That is enough to rile any sane person I reckon!
Number of people stoned for breaking the number one commandment... all of those who broke it. Number of people damned for believing not.. all of them.
God is consistent.
What i like about this OT stuff is the parallel.
1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
So we better not lol. What you cease to forget is that at the time of the exodus, Israel had the burning pillar of fire and the cloud by day and the glory of the lord in the tabernacle and manna everyday that fell from above.
Many of the other god worshipings involved sexual ceremonies. All while the pillar of fire, the parting of the sea, occurred, you think that with all these signs and wonders which is what the atheist is looking for.. that israel would not have done these things, plus there was the penalty of death. A pretty hard people to get to understand what is around them. I am sure a number of people would say, boy if i had manna falling from heaven to eat, and a pillar of fire with no source and if i had seen that sea part and walked between the sides of water....... if these things had worked nobody would be getting stoned for worshiping other gods.
If God did not exist as you say. We can then look at the world around us and see that mankind has vested itself on a venture that we do not feed the hungry, We have outgrown our ability to govern ourselves, We have just about exhausted our natural resources, trees, fresh water, clean air, the list goes on.
Mankind is doing these things to our selves without any assistance from Religion.
When Nations begin to starve, they go to war if they have he means.
If as you say there is no God; I say that we certainly need one in the worst way and quickly.
You theists have been running the world for centuries, despising mankind, doing whatever you want because your god told you to have dominion over everything.
It is your religion that has done this to mankind.
Religion cut down all of the trees? which effects the weather.
Religion used up all of the oil dumping smog causing air pollution?
Religion is eating all the food causing a shortage causing millions to starve to death?
Religion is polluting the drinking water?
Religion is causing the financial crisis?
Does religion cause earthquakes and hurricanes, and volcanio eruptions too?
I just do not see the connection??
It is amazing to see the different post and arguments in this forum.
"What is it about believers that riles non-believers?
I think it is an issue of control. The believer shares the message of the gospel, exposing the issue of sin and that most of our deeds are sinful and that we all have transgressed against a Most Holy God. Some people do not want to hear that or have their deeds exposed as being evil(sinful). Most would like to think that they are good people. The idea that all will some day have to answer to God, and give an account for their actions is beyond their control, can create a little rise in them as well.
Right or wrong People, what I do know is that You all are Loved by God. Our need for a savior is real. As for facts, this i do know, is that my deeds were evil in the things that I have done in my life according to God's standard, and that I needed Jesus, and that i could not save myself.
Aside from all that is posted in this forum, I think you all have beautiful minds, and such talent..
DakingKingKid, You hit the nail on the mark. God truly loves everyone.
The believer does not share, they shove. They do not expose issues, they threaten with eternal damnation and make demands that others believe as they do.
Others do not want to face up to reality and prefer to live in a fantasy world.
Nonsense. The fact that some embrace the myths and superstitions of long ago doesn't mean everyone does. Others recognize these as myths and superstitions and only laugh at those who assume those gods have any effect over them.
Oh there you go again. Oh well.
Wouldn't you be upset if you couldn't see the magician, the hat, or the rabbit, when truly intelligent people seem to be able to perceive it? I'd get riled too. Payback sucks, especially well earned payback. It's almost like pickin' on a chimp, but they aren't chimps. Eventually, God gets all the fish. Resistance is futile. They will be assimilated.
I don't get riled up at what believers think. The problem is both parties think they are right. And really they both are, in their minds, so let them have that.
The ten commandments are always sold as benevolent. I beg to differ.
2nd. Commandment, Exodus 20:4 “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water below.”
Old Testament punishment- Deuteronomy 27: 1 5 “Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image.”
That’s right kids don’t EVER draw, sculpt or paint or else god will curse you. Wanna be an artist, a photographer, take a picture of yourself or family? TOO BAD, God says no! You better drop out of art class before he smites you with boils.
My own personal rant
My answer to your original question is that all of the ranters, posters to threads irrelevant to our own belief systems, and the like, are bombastic blowhards who believe that they know it all.
Other opinions (to them) are ignorant musings, as anyone with any sense would see it their way - the only way of truth.
Attack them and they will point to the countless times they have been attacked for their beliefs, almost certainly to be people who are not the ones talking to them now, or whose thread they are posting musings about another's intellectual capacity or consanguineous marriages on.(they probably have been attacked, it is epidemic)
The world is divided into Good thinkers (themselves) and Bad thinkers (the rest of the world, or THEM, either theists/atheists/or giant ants)(Deists never get mentioned)
If Good thinkers win, the world enters into a golden age, and there is cake
If Bad thinkers win, the world is thrust into ignorance and chaos, and the cake is eaten by Someone Else.
So, we must be the self-righteous and because the self-back patting machine is not enough, we have to let everyone else know just how awesome we think we are.
Respect is only for the Goodthinkers! God is/I am for the betterment of mankind and respect for all, unless they disagree with me in someway.
(a nod to Umberto Eco)
I think the self back-patting machine is actually out of order at the moment. Over use ya see?
I have it on good authority that the administration staff have called out a self back-patting machine repair man and it should be fully operational soon. I am sorry for any inconvenience this has caused
Proverbs 15:9 The Lord detests the way of the wicked but he loves those who pursue righteousness.
Well, that cleared it all up...
clear as mud
Seriously, not sure how that reply relates to the post I made
This is the folly of the true believer, they forget they are speaking to us simple heathens who just don't see their 'logic'
hahaha get real!
Here's a fine example of your psychotic god's love and care..
whoooeee! Sick, sick, sick!
What about middle ground thinkers?
A vacation sounds delightful I for one am willing to leave this helter-skelter thread.
There exists a couple of nincompoops and one in particular that will bait you up and then run to the mod squads with complaints to get ya fried.
What is so baffling is one without knowledge of what is being discussed, usually a fanatical believer, will commence whining that he had been desirous of having an intellectual discussion about whatever and returning words and phrases you just used as if they were his own original thinking.
Understood and acknowledged. I am going to enjoy my much desired vacation. If I do not get banned for my last comment to OP, which would not bother me in the slightest, because I had to speak my peace about his alter-ego and I am not sorry about that, I will take a personal holiday away from the forums for awhile. Thanks for the heads up
Hey pylos26, you talkin to ME that way boy? Don't u go rantin bout thangs u aint got a clue bout. It aint very beholdin.
You had better believe im a fanatic. I love Nature and everthang in it. Respect for it and its Maker.
In my fanatic opinion, which by the way is worth as much as yours, one would have to have a screw loose if they DIDNT .
Now, put that in your bag and roll one with it.
Have a great day , and take a hike, before it gets to cold. Outdoors is a great place to walk off tension.
It gets worse as we read them one by one.
3rd. Commandment, Exodus 20:7 “Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord in vain”. Old Testament punishment - Leviticus 24:16 “And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death”, New Testament punishment - Matthew 12:32 “Whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come”. Mark 3:29 - “He that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation”.
Commandments is right. On threat of death no less.
Psychotic fear driven hate filled rubbish that is somehow not mentioned or even seen by most religionists who just drink the cool-ade without readin the ingredients.
Earnest, I admit, up until now, I have been laughing rather hard. By the way, have you got that dang song finished yet? I'm ready to go to la la land. Im old.
Sorry about the song, I got lost when I put that bad line in, how about we put in some bee-bops or make the chorus repetitive?
More reasons to believe?
4th. Commandment, Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy”. Old Testament punishment - Exodus 31:15 “Whosoever shall work in the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death”. Numbers 15:32. “And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the Sabbath day…And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.”
Most believers should be terrified!
This riles a lot of people, believers better get this one right!
5th. Commandment, Exodus 20:12 “Honour thy father and thy mother”. Old Testament punishment - Exodus 21:15-17 “And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death”. More punishment - Exodus 21:17 “And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death”.
That is a fairly harsh punishment for talkin back to the old man!
why you crying?
What's under the hat?
It is a known fact that satan knows the Bible from cover to cover, he tried to use it against Jesus; but failed.
Proverbs 17:3 The fining pot is for silver, and the furnace for gold: but the Lord trieth the hearts . And elsewhere" a tree is known by it's fruits". Let him who has ears hear or better yet: a decerning heart.
Proverbs 16: 4 The Lord works everything for it's own ends-
even the wicked for the day of disaster.
Are you saying that knowing the bible from cover to cover makes a person satan?
I would say the same.
Proverbs 16:16 How much better it is to aquire wisdom than gold:
to aquire understanding is more desirable than silver
Proverbs !8:2 A fool takes no pleasure in understanding
But only in disclosing what is on his mind.
it is a known fact that many Christians know the Bible from cover to cover and try to use it to do evil.
Proverbs !9:2 It is dangerous to have zeal without knowledge,
and the one who acts hastily makes poor choices.
THE HOLY SPIRIT IS AMONG US, i can feel him : there is power in the word of GOD, GOD is all power.
Provebs 19:9 A false witness will not go unpunished,
and the one who spouts out lies will perish.
So be very careful what you say against God. It might not hit you now, but think of your children and grandchildren, "the sins of the father"
Troy, I gave you to responses...where are your replies to those exact responses?
Proverbs 19 20 Listen to advice and receive discipline, That you may becomewise by the end of your life.
is that suppose to be funny?
maybe you can name one?
if not, you show your lack of understanding sir.
Can you say Television Preachers?
just who do you think Messiah taught against?
the religious leaders who knew the scriptures
or the sinners?
The Messiah, Jesus taught against the religious leaders who were not Christians. Go back to your original post , You said Christians not religious leaders. stick with your own thoughts, you are drifting.
God has opened my eyes.
pardon my spelling y'all
I was using it as a metaphore Troy...
so are you teling me that you cannot find one Christian who knows the Bible and uses it for evil?
I was not aware that my eyes were closed
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