Everybody believes something existing automatically

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   paarsurreyposted 13 years ago

   Everybody believes something existing automatically; Atheists as well as Theists. The Theists believe and experience the Creator-God Allah YHWH who is attributive and has created the Universe and the Life in it. The Atheists believe the Universe exists automatically; having no creator.
   
   Can the Universe and Life exist without a Creator.

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      pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Can the Universe and Life exist without a Creator?...well what you call creator is some intelligent being while what atheist call creator is non living entity...the combination of forces...infact theist and atheist dont differ much ..the main difference is only that creator as per theist is living , intelligent , has emotions , feels good , sad,bad ,becomes happy ,gets angry and also judges ...it is manifestation of more what humans think creator would do if they would have been one...

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      pennyofheavenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Can a creator exist without life and the universe as we know it?

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         paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Yes for sure; the Creator-God existed before the creation of the Universe and life; the Universe and the life existed only when he created them.
         
         He tell us this in very clear terms:
         
         [6:102] The Originator of the heavens and the earth! How can He have a son when He has no consort, and when He has created everything and has knowledge of all things?
         [6:103] Such is Allah, your Lord. There is no God but He, the Creator of all things, so worship Him. And He is Guardian over everything.
         [6:104] Eyes cannot reach Him but He reaches the eyes. And He is the Incomprehensible, the All-Aware.
         
         http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … ;verse=101

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            pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this

            how can u be so sure...where u there along with creator to see it?...anyways there is not living creator...those are all stories...dont take them too seriously...live life...respect others...work hard and forget about creator theme..even if HE exist...let it be...

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            pennyofheavenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            If a creator has not created anything it is not a creator. It just is. Therefore it cannot be a creator unless it creates something. If we were not created we would just be with no creator. Meaning you cannot have one without the other.

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               paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Please elaborate.
               
               If I get you right; God Allah YHWH has one attribute of creating among many other attributes; He has always been a Creator; He is not limited to this Universe; He may have other creations in other dimensions which we cannot perceive.

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                  pennyofheavenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Ok will try. If one believed they were created there would have to be a creator. Like God. If one did not believe they were created and just "are" then there would be no creator. Like Evolution. One cannot exist without the other and it is all in accordance with ones belief.

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            getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            If incomprehensible, then why even bother?
            
            Fortunately, the Quran has no authority except in the minds of the indoctrinated followers.

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               paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               The Atheist' view point is that the Universe exists automatically; has the Universe ever told the Atheists that she exists automatically?
               
               The Universe has given the human beigs the parts of speech to talk; tongue etc; yet it is itself a deaf and dumb; cannot speek.

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                  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  I never heard Creater-God-Allah tell me anything either.  You seem to always speak for Him.
                  
                  
                  
                  Again, your Allah appears to be deaf and dumb.  I have never heard It utter a word.  It needs you to speak for Him.

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      getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I don't think you speak for all theist.  Some theist actually believe in the Creator-Flying Spaghetti Monster, or Creator-Pink Unicorn.

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      Shahid Bukhariposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      we can talk about the Universe ... the stars and galaxies  ... after we have understood the smaller things, that compose a tiny speck ... Earth ... a planet, in one of the countless Solar Systems, within Billions of Galaxies, that compose the Universe's Totality ...
      
      Therefore, lets be practical ... lets talk of the mundane ... you, me and  things, like bread and butter ...
      
      Do you think, you, me, or the bread and butter we eat ... could have come to "Exist" automatically ... ?
      
      So if now you believe, that this idea of "automatic existence" is pure nonsense, then, its about time you asked God, to make you Understand His Created Reality.

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   wildernessposted 13 years ago

   As the "Creator-God Allah YHWH" is in fact a fantasy creation of human kind (a late comer in the universe) then the "Creator" did not create the universe.
   
   Therefore the universe can exist without a creator.

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   Nick Maliziaposted 13 years ago

   Cheese and rice, Hubbers really like G-d topics...
   
   "Can a creation exist without a creator" depends on how one defines "creator/creation." In Science, a precedent like the Big Bang can be a "creator" since it lead to physical forms (space.)
   
   Some people who believe in a deity don't necessarily "humanize" it either as a He, She (goddess), It. So in some types of animism, it isn't difficult to combine spiritual and scientific beliefs.

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      Nick Maliziaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Re-phrase: substitute "deity" with "higher/supreme power."

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         paravedaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Yes indeed! it isnt difficult to combine Spirituality and Science. Science especially Physics helps in finding answers on Spirituality

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            paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            For example? Please

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            Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            That is true. Physics finds that "spirits" can't possibly exist.

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               pennyofheavenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               That would depend on ones interpretation of spirit. There are those that interpret energy as spirit. Kinda like when you walk into a room where two have had a massive confrontation and have left. The energy can still be felt. Does not mean they are still present but their energy can be still present.

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                  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  They interpret incorrectly then, as energy is well defined and has no relationship to the mythical concepts of 'spirits'.
                  
                  
                  
                  You need to define exactly what energy it is that you're referring to that is "still felt" as that makes no sense whatsoever.
                  
                  There is no energy in the room. There is only the impressions left on the minds of those in the room of the occurrence.

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                     klarawieckposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     Hi Beelyboy! Happy New Year and many blessings for the new year... Oh... I forgot... let me rephrase... Many GOOD THINGS for the new year!

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                     pennyofheavenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     If you have not felt it then I will not be able to define it to you. If you have felt love or happiness or the like, then perhaps I might?

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                        Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        Those are merely emotions driven by biochemical reactions in the body. They have nothing to do with your claims.

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                           pennyofheavenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                           Oh but they do.  The neurons in our brains is how we transmit and receive energy.  Scientist say that about 400 million bits of information per second ,from the different frequencies, are received by our senses. Yet only 2000 bits are decoded by our brain. Which means our brains are not working to its full capacities.
                           
                           It seems whilst we have logic and reason and beliefs, this is what has hindered us from using our brains full capacities. Unlike animals who can sense a tsunami or see long distances we have limited ourselves based on our perception. 
                           
                           We have the ability to learn and relearn and develop these neural pathways that can indeed increase the way in which we can perceive what energy we are not yet perceiving. Those who can sense energy when the source has left the room have developed one such neural pathway then.

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   simeonvisserposted 13 years ago

   If a Creator can exist without a Creator then a Universe can also exist without a Creator.

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   I am DB Cooperposted 13 years ago

   I think the origin of the universe is as mysterious to scientists as the origin of the creator is to theists. What happened before the Big Bang? Is expansion and contraction and the Big Bang a cyclical system? If so, when did it start? If a creator started all of this, what created the creator?

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      paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I don't agree with you.
      
      The Scientists are not involved in it; as Scientist they are not supposed to speak on this subject unless they speak off-the-cuff; it is not their field.

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         pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this

         i think you underestimate science..universe and its mystery is strictly science domain...yes creative people do write stories but actually reality is for science to find out...i can write poetry on sun , moon , saturn...i can assume how it would have been but it is for science to tell the truth...

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            paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Well, it is wrong; science can only discern things physical; not the purpose of life or who created the Universe.

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               pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this

               purpose of life is subjective and science cannot give that...for you something might be purpose which you became convinced about and for someone else it might be different one...so it is not for science to work on individual human life...
               
               who created universe is definitely science domain and it is moving on right track....it would take time...but sooner or later science would discover it...coming to religion and thinkers...well they start with similar questions which science does..only diversion is that religion tries to answer using too many assumptions without giving proof...it works because human carve for that and would keep on working ...

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                  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Sorry; I don't agree with you with reasons.
                  
                  Science has failed only because it is not its domaimn; and it is only a wishful thinking that it will sometimes suceed and find out. It will never find out.
                  
                  If it is in the domain of Siencec, to which of its branch it pertains; Physics, Chemistry etc? I don't think it pertains to any of its branch.

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                     pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     i didn't write that to make you agree with me...ofcourse you wont agree..and i am fine with it...
                     
                     coming to wishful thinking science is not religion man...science merely doesnot assume and write about how it might be...they act and get to the truth...it looked wishful thinking to people when science said it wants humans to fly...it looked wishful thinking to people when science said it would go to moon and send craft to mars...it looked wishful thinking to people when science invented anything and ironically all those who thought science was being stupid use science on daily basis to get on with their lives...science is not a person it is way of thinking and this way has not failed ...it is most impactful way of thinking...it is most creative way and it is most important reason that humans have progressed...science starts with thought..thought of knowing unknown, doing which has never been done before , testing , exploring , inventing ...religion too starts with similar thoughts..knowing the unknown but it is more into story telling than proving...it works and would keep on working...

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                     w4rmikeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     paarsurrey, you are using circular reasoning. "Science failed because it is not it's domain." 
                     
                     That is a logical fallacy.
                     
                     I also have to say that I am surprised that you are using a computer and talking about how science has failed.  It did not fail!  Look around you!  People used science in the form of breakthroughs and theories to make your computer so that you can talk to us!  Don't you think that's a miracle?  Or at least special? 
                     
                     And you can even beleive that God gave us science if you want to.

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                        paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        I think you have not understood me correctly. I don't say that science is not successeful in physical realm; it is successful in this realm; other realms are not in its domain and hence it fails there.

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   paarsurreyposted 13 years ago

   And yet there is spirituality?!

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      Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      As there is delusion.

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   paarsurreyposted 13 years ago

   The Creator-God existed before the creation of the Universe and the life in it.
   
   He tell us this in very clear terms:
   
   [6:102] The Originator of the heavens and the earth! How can He have a son when He has no consort, and when He has created everything and has knowledge of all things?
   [6:103] Such is Allah, your Lord. There is no God but He, the Creator of all things, so worship Him. And He is Guardian over everything.
   [6:104] Eyes cannot reach Him but He reaches the eyes. And He is the Incomprehensible, the All-Aware.
   
   http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … ;verse=101
   
   Universe has not claimed that it existed on its own.

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      w4rmikeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I just want to chime in.  I beleive things existing automatically.  I don't know where everything comes from, but I know I wake up every morning it comes back.  Every night, I lose it all.  I mean that I don't know what happened to those hours.  They were lost.
      
      So in that way consciousness is sort of relative.  When you go to sleep, the rest of the world goes away.  Of course that is not true, I know that although I am sleeping there is a whole universe of things happening without asking me if I am awake.  But, like Einstein's theory of relativity this interaction can go both ways depending on the perspective.
      
      But IT (reality) always comes back...  It starts to feel a little bit like I am a yoyo, bouncing in and out of consciousness.  It feels comforting to sleep and then to wake up again.  But it always appears automatically.  It might take time for me to focus my eyes or thoughts and perceive everything, but it is absolutely all there, every day.
      
      In fact, now that I think about it, reality has only been here for me since I have been here.  Does that make me a relative God?

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         paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         When you wake up in the morning; does your breakfast comes into your mouth automatiacally? Did it happen ever in your life?

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            jomineposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            instead of always reading  the quran and other non sense and by heartening it, try sometimes to get out and see the world and think

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   paarsurreyposted 13 years ago

   Everybody believes something existing automatically; Atheists as well as Theists. The Theists believe and experience the Creator-God Allah YHWH who is attributive and has created the Universe and the Life in it. The Atheists believe the Universe exists automatically; having no creator.
   
   Can the Universe and Life exist without a Creator.
   
   I don't think it can.

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