Atheists, can you make an argument for god's existence?
They say that, in order to understand both sides of an issue, you must know enough that you could argue for the other side. It's a common practice in speech/debate classes. So this question is for atheists; can you make a convincing argument that god exists, even though you don't believe it yourself?
nature is so wonderful and complex, it had to have a super-intelligent designer. something has to be the uncaused cause. i believe it is god.
Keep in mind that we're the ones who have defined intelligence, which doesn't exist without our involvement.
Also keep in mind that "God" failed as a "super-intelligent designer". And no, there is no such thing as an "uncaused cause". A god did not create itself out of nothing and then create everything else.
you aren't in keeping with the intended spirit of the thread. you're supposed to be an atheist arguing FOR god.
LOL! You are correct. I just can't psyche myself up to "believe" or present a case for "belief" in a god or gods. Once one recognizes the invisibility of these "supreme beings", it's just too funny.
It all depends what sort of God you are looking for; as for me God exists because life exists. This is based on the assumption that for life to exist there must be something on earth or the universe that makes life possible, whatever it is, for want of a proper name we call this something God. So, God exist because life exists.
Sure! I can list ALL of the arguments that believers have for their gods. I could debate them all day long.
It still wouldn't be convincing though, because proof of a god or gods does not physically exist. There is no supernatural event that can be proven by natural means.
Anyone with a google search bar can come up with all the statements that believers use. And repeat over and over and over. They memorize all of the dogma that was given to them from birth. They believe sheer repetition makes it all true.
But the only argument worth holding on to is that belief in "God" is a state of mind. And once a believer is thoroughly indoctrinated in the "God Thought", there is no way to argue against it.
God actually exists - in their thoughts and brains!
what is the meaning of state of mind?
State of mind is the status of ones consciousness, as in their perception of the outside world, their perception of their own intuition, and the function of their brain.
Some kind of malevolent, evil being had to create the Brazilian Wandering Spider, among many other natural horrors. Might as well be God.
No, you can't. You run into an unsolvable paradox.
The unsolvable problem that arises when believing in a deity, like Lord the Almighty, Yahweh or Allah, is that if this creator created the Universe - who created this deity then? Believers argue that the creator is eternal. He was always there and will always be there.
But the moment that believers states this, then why would Humanity have to be created then? Because like Jesus said "the kingdom is inside us", which means in other words that Humans are potential Gods.
And if Humans are potential Gods then they are eternal too - hence not created. This is in my view an unsolvable paradox. Arguing with believers is not possible, because many are not open for this kind of logic and reason.
There's much to say for a fully self propelling fully mathematical Universe, that needs no creating deity at all. This doesn't mean there are no God's in this Universe. There are, but this are no deities one should worship, like the Demiurge - a dark mighty deity that likes to be called Lord the Almighty, Yahweh or Allah.
If Humanity would recognize that every Human being is potentially divine by definition, the world would look far different. That means not worshipping evil deities, but worshipping their fellowman - red, yellow, black and white.
Finally, Atheists do not recognize the mind as a part of divine fabric. Atheist only believe in matter, the sensory tangible, and are therefore in my humble opinion not on the right track as well.
It's true that some atheists only believe in the natural universe, but that is not true of ALL atheists. The only thing ALL atheists have in common is that they don't believe in a god or gods. But should some type of verifiable truth comes along...
Not really no. There are a few concession points for the potential existence of a god/creator/higher being, but none that point to a specific being that surpasses all others thought to exist.
A god could exist. A god could not exist. Creation itself is a convenient excuse for the existence of a god since there seems to be no other evidence that is on par with creation, which in itself could have happened entirely by chance.
I wonder why it matters so much that people obsess over HOW and WHY the universe exists. It obviously DOES exist. Why not live in harmony with the universe?
I guess people are not obsessed with how the universe existed. But how when or if it will end? people are looking for answers because they fear death. We want to make sure where are we going.
Soraya - there are no guarantees in life. Mankind has no power over the beginning or end of life. And very little control over the present. We are born, we live, then we die. It's the circle of life.
Which god? The Christian/Jewish god (this being a primarily American site, other religions somehow get ignored)? The Islamic god (same character apparently, one that often gets lost in thought while supporters of Islam are seemingly obsessed with their prophet and murdering anyone who is supposed to have insulted him)? How about the Greek pantheon? The Norse Pantheon? The Babylonian deity, Marduk? The Aztec gods, Quetzalcoatl and Huitzilopochtli? The Fijian shark god, Dakuwaqa? The Inca god, Inti? The Indian pantheon?
And that is just a handful. There are thousands of them - those worshipped once by native American tribes, those worshipped by Australian aborigines among them.
Living in Germany, I have recently been reading up on the deities worshipped by the tribes living in what is now Germany between 200 and 700 ADA (the last A stands for the Middle Ages Latin word "allegati" - no need for translation). An offshoot of the Norse pantheon actually, with some variations.
But - to use the vernacular - you can see where I am coming from, can't you?
There isn't a single logical scientific reason why any one of these god or gods can be distinguished as existing if the others don't. It then boils down to belief - and nothing more.
So making any argument for the existence of any god has this problem that cannot be logically resolved. Even if a god exists, a believer would be wrong most of the time.
More importantly for me though is the single word "evidence". For a god to exist we need one of two possibilities:
1. Existence can be proved by sense data.
2. Existence can be proved by testing in a science lab - there we can test for the existence of all sorts of gases which cannot be identified by sense data (even inert gases like helium, radon and neon for example).
To date no evidence for any god has come close to satisfying such tests. All we have is the illogical nonsense about a "supernatural being beyond space and time". Go read Stephen Hawking's works some time (and that will require a long time!), and see how likely that possibility isn't!
So to answer your initial question, my answer is "no", and at the age of 67 I am not expecting it to change during the limited time that I have left before I disappear into the void where we all end up - even the believers.
That's an incredibly tough one, M. T.! Believe me, I've tried this mental exercise many times -- both to test my own conclusions and to try to see how clever I can be. But each and every time, I find some fundamental flaw that undermines the premise.
The closest I've come is when delving into the mysterious world of quantum mechanics, where some of the interactions (such as quantum entanglement and the double-slit experiment) make it seem like there's some external force dictating the behavior. Yet, in the end, all that really constitutes is a "god-of-the-gaps" conclusion which, as history demonstrates, is doomed to eventual failure as science inevitably finds the answer to the mystery.
Of course, the failure to fashion a compelling or convincing argument for the existence of God/gods shouldn't really be that surprising. If I (or anyone else) COULD come up with such an argument, I'd be more inclined to believe!
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