I haven't been on HP for very long, but I have read through quite a few of the threads on here...I often see someone who claims to be "Christian" saying that "this is wrong" or "that is wrong" based off of a quote from the OT. But yet, I hear also that Jesus died for all sins and that "we" are "saved" by grace. I am curious about something...If in fact things are "wrong" based off of the OT...Then why is it so many so called "Christians" do not follow the teaching in the OT...but when condemning others..quote the OT as the reason that they are living in "sin". So lets us see what thoughts we get...
Jesus contradicts the OT quite a lot. In fact, that is what angered the Pharisees. What people have construed as God's law are just Jewish Laws. Jesus' preaching rectified the misconceptions of the God that the OT gives. For example, He preached forgiveness whereby in the OT it says you shall repay your neighbour with an eye for an eye.
That is why people Christians tie themselves in knots by claiming the Bible is the infallible word of God because it clearly is not.
your point is a good one. No Matter how eclectic people make Jesus. Make him into anything needed for the cause!
No matter if the explanation belongs to the Modern Super Churches to get more donations, members and TV rights! Or an open argument for a blog membership to grow. Or for the forsaken facts of full literary license, All necessary for an un-skilled Sunday School teacher to speak their version to an un-questioning membership.
They just can not escape the Old Testament!
It will be a source of Psychotic, Religious- political checkmate for eternity! :
Many Christians get themselves into theological trouble when they try to follow Old Testament teachings that are not supported in the New Testament.In fact some Old Testament teachings are now a violation of the law in their own countries.
The most well-known change in Old Testament teachings occurred when Jesus taught:
Matthew 5:44 (New King James Version)
But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you.,
a teaching that most who call themselves Christians in the Western world still have not accepted which explains the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Dr.Dean - can you show me where in the OT you are referring to regarding the most well know change? When asked which of the commandments is the greatest, He said 'love', which is one of the foundations of the OT as well as the NT. How is it changed? Are you referring to the difference between loving you neighbor as yourself and loving your enemies?
The NT also says 'render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's' meaning Christians should obey earthly authority without breaking God's laws. The acceptance of the practice of loving one's enemies, etc., is probably strong among Christians but not among politicians who govern wars.
I believe we should try to follow the teachings of Jesus in the NT. I say "try" because none of us are perfect, we will all mess up from time to time.
The OT has the old covenant. Jesus brought in the new. The OT, an eye for an eye. Jesus said forgive, turn the other cheek. Jesus taught love and forgiveness, not to judge one another.
I think we can still learn from the old, as a history book. Learn from past mistakes, past successes.
My opinion. I'm sure there are others.
I think we can still learn from the old, as a history book. Learn from past mistakes, past successes.
So you are saying that God of the Bible do make MISTAKES?
Well it doesn't matter whether Christians follow OT or NT BUT we have to see what Jesus Christ said about OT in the NT.
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Mathew 5:17-19)
So you are saying that God of the Bible did make MISTAKES?
Not at all. I'm saying PEOPLE make mistakes.
Matt. 22-37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God
with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy
neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the
Can someone explain why it is that when talking about... lets say "witches"... people who claim to be "Christian" say that the bible says(OT) "Suffer not a sorceress to live". But when the fact that the bible also says a few chapters later(OT)... "anyone who breaks the Sabbath is to be put to death" you hear...we are not under the "law" we are under faith as per the NT?
Because when the savages who wrote this monstrosity called the bible(OT and NT) they were so ignorant that they left future followers in a state of perpetual confusion. Christians don't really know what they believe, but they believe it anyway.
Then, of course, we now live in postmodern times, and as we see, secular law trumps biblical nonsense, or else witches would be burned, working on the sabbath would get you the death penalty, adulterers would be stoned, and people would be sacrificed to this imaginary deity.
Believers adjust their nonsense based upon the advancement of science, which affects secular law and mores.
Sorry if you just can't accept reality, instead, you'd rather force yourself to live your life in abject ignorance, scoffing at reason, while trying to convince us that your childish, brainless beliefs are real. The laugh is squarely on you sir.
Not that I am defending the theist point of view, getitrite, but you do know that is a terrible contradiction of a retort/statement?
Abject Ignorance, Reason, Convincing are ALL states of the SAME/SIMILAR human thought process. No one person has a better brain than another. All have the same brain unit, same brain functions and ultimately the same result. None of it is brainless --quite the opposite. Logic dictates, emotion satisfies that dictation, no matter the vantage point pro or con. "Is it all irrelevant.", would be a better statement.
getitrite, I do not try to convince anyone, I believe everyone has a right to express their own opinions, that is what these pages is all about, and I did not realize that the Christians was not allowed to LOL, some one should tell me the rules that apply to Christians here on these pages,
Religion, having fraud as its foundation, causes dishonesty and confusion, and a disconnect from one's own consciousness.
Some believers on here have completely abdicated their minds.
These responses are insane.
I agree some of the responses are insane, the non-believers should stop with them
Sorry if you just can't accept reality, instead, you'd rather force yourself to live your life in abject ignorance, scoffing at God, while trying to convince us that your childish, monkey turned man, brainless beliefs are real. The laugh is squarely on you.
funny stuff.. you should write comics for newspapers. I think laurel and hardy best fit your type of humor.. .. too late and ooops
I think the NT writers realised how outdated the OT was so and were losing followers, so they decided on an upgrade. Needs yet another upgrade
I think some of us follow a little of both. I also read and follow some (actually a lot) of the teachings from the Gnostic Gospels, and some of the writings of the Qur'an.
Another great resource to becoming a better Christian can be found in these two books, "The Wisdom of One Heart" and "Awaken the Buddha Within."
The entire bible is called Gods word.
1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them (OT elders) for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
We cannot disregard the OT in the context that it is a learning tool. These are the holy scriptures
Matthew 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. (they did not have the NT at this time.. the scriptures Jesus is referring to are the OT.)
Mark 15:28 And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors. (prophecy from the OT is fulfilled in the NT)
Jesus talking to some people - Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he (Jesus) expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself (Jesus).
To say that the OT is not to be used or to ignore the OT or just to pay attention to the NT is incomplete. We need both.
Brothereryochanan, couldn't have said it better myself!!
I agree that both the OT and NT are needed. Thank you for bringing up the point that the NT was not around in the time of Jesus as this is a very relevant but easily overlooked point.
Whenever I went to church as a child (Catholic church) most of the readings were from the NT. This might have just been the preference of the priests in my church. However, and let me say that I am not a religious scholar, perhaps different branches of the Christian church focus on different parts of the bible more? Does anyone know?
Did anyone attend Sunday school and what denomination, if so? Do you remember where the focus of the teachings was from?
In general, I think people, in any situation, will use whatever suits their argument. I have heard people denounce certain references as unworthy and then use those same references in a later argument. When it was pointed out they were using an 'untrustworthy' source the person (an academic as well) stammered and said along the lines that this was the only source available so it had to be trusted. Likewise I think people will use the OT and the NT as suits their purpose during discussion or argument.
Ahmad Usmanwrote ...
I think we can still learn from the old, as a history book. Learn from past mistakes, past successes.
- - - - - - - -
I think that the OT HAS to be undrstood correctly and as fully as is possible bfore we can rightfully understand the new testimate.
It is best to fully understand 1st year geometry before we can begin to understand 2nd year geometry.
The same is true with scripture.
Yes; OK ... Earnest. Mark, etc .... He killed a lot of folks for what reson we do not know or understand which takes nothing away from this statement above..
This is not what i said. Always read carefully.
I quoted stilljustwonderin and give my reply over his comment.
So let me see if i understand everything...First off.. Jesus taught from " The Law, The Prophets, Psalms and Proverbs" and he was Jewish and wish to start a new church using Simon (Peter: which means Rock) as its foundation...So the "religion " that Jesus taught was a modified or maybe it would be safe to say a "corrected" version of the Jewish traditions...It wasn't until we get to Saul/Paul that we start getting into the "religion" that we are claiming to be the base of todays mondern Christianity. So are we following the teachings of Jesus and consider ourselves somewhat Jewish and have to follow the Old Laws... or do we follow Saul/Paul's interpretation of the teachings of Jesus and call ourselves Christians and that we are saved by faith and belief in Jesus The Christ and are therefore under grace and no longer required to follow the Old Laws...If you read the Book of Romans you will see that Saul/Paul says that without Law there is no knowledge of Sin...so if we are not under the Law how can we Sin? If we do not know the Law how can we know Sin? If the Bible is God's word...Then how do we jusified ourselves if we do not follow each and every word of it to the letter? How can we claim to be Christian if we do not follow the sacred scriptures that is supposed to give us all guidance in our faith? Living an "Intentional Sin" free life isn't that hard...Jesus makes it simple, "Give up all things except your faith and follow me". How many Christians would be willing to live completely by faith alone...and allow God to provide for them as Jesus had his 70 disciples do? Give up Greed, Hate, Strife, Possessions, Friends, Family, and just live by your Faith, Love and Spiritual works alone and allow God, God working through the kindness of others to provide for your physical needs. Think about this and give it serious thought...
Serious thought is swallowed up in the comprehension of grace. Grace is what makes allowance for that which we can not do. If we did as you suggest, then we would be earning our salvation through works, which would in turn, subject us, to the slavery of the law again. If we could achieve all that you suggest, we would have no need of forgiveness or His sacrifice on the cross. That is the idea. He died to set you free from that which you would fail at.
The way it goes is like this:
the OT was explicitly for the people of God AT that Time.
Jesus came to end the OT era and usher in a new era.
Jesus dying on the cross is the crux to all christlikeians. We can't really use christian anymore or christendom because the catholics are calling themselves christians nowadays and the jehovahs witness and other cults as well.
Jesus died on the cross, taking sin with him.. in the OT this was physically represented by the sin offering once a year when the high priest would disappear behind the veil and offer up for all the sins of israel, the sin offering, and when that priest came back out alive, all of israel knew they were good for another year. This was the problem with the OT method, it was temporary and the work was never done. The one piece of furniture in the temple: inner court and holy of holies that was not found, is a chair, because the work of sacrificing and atoning for sin was never done. (and now christ SITS at the right hand of God in heaven because christs work is done - sidenote)
Jesus christ died on the cross to atone for all sin, once and for all. As the shedding of blood was important under the OT, jesus shed his blood as the (sacrificial) lamb of God, the last sacrifice. This is when the veil tore from top to bottom. Now this was no flimsy veil, to hold back the shekinah glory of God (his shininess, or his light) it was very thick and dense, anyway the veil was torn from top (heaven) to bottom (earth) - which is God reaching down to mankind.
Anyway... There is no harm in learning from the OT. There are huge lessons to be drawn from those blessed pages and it is there for a guide to us to learn and grow as christlikeians. There is church structure, a description of heaven, christophanies, miracles, graces, etc.
The law that God gave to his people then was just that, His law to His people Then, but since christ, a new law has been ushered in, the law of grace through the spirit of christ jesus, who is God wrapped in human flesh. By ending the previous he installed the present. There is yet another dispensation to come. (3 in total) So yes we live unto righteousness in christ and by faith that his power is able to keep us from all harm and from sin.
It must also be noted here that: In the OT testament God loaned his spirit to the prophets and leaders, temporarily, to speak His word and to lead his people (and to write his book) but in the NT era, God puts his spirit in His people; and daily, hourly 24/7 and yearly until death, we have this ability to relate to God in a relationship way. God will, by the spirit reprove His people individually, when they do something wrong, if they learn, He can move them forward; if not, they will drift (many are drifting today and have been for years)
The new era is by far greater than the Old era, as wonderful and powerful as That Was, it was only a shadow of the era that christ ushered in, a much better covenant.
hope that helped a bit.
God merely changes his mind occasionally. He made man, knowing he would have to destroy most of them with a flood one day. He demanded blood sacrifices, until he decided to send his illegitimate son to die and the sacrifices were can canceled.
O course,it wasn't too much of a sacrifice because he got his son back again. So was there forgiveness before Jesus? If so, then what was the whole thing about? And why didn't Jesus match the description of the prophesied messiah?
God change his mind again?
We are discussing to distinct and seperate covenants. The OT was predicated on law and salvation was based upon that law. Jesus and the NT are the new covenant. Grace surplants the law. If you wish to live according to the OT law then you will be judged by that law. Or you can surrender to a new covenant (grace) your penalty paid in the person of Jesus. Liberty-not under the law. The old is made new. We are set free from the law!
So why didn't god use the Jesus connection originally? Why require animal sacrifices and then change to a mental sacrifice instead?
I sounds more like the first ritual was merely an adopted one borrowed from earlier religions. Much like some of the stories in the OT itself. The whole flood thing didn't make any sense if god knows everything. But I suppose one could say this about the entire bible.
Hey Randy! Now you ask me for opinion and conjecture, which will in turn, solicit some others response, that Christianity is all opinion and conjecture. With that expectation, aforehand, I will do the best I can.
The world in which early man lived, was habitually tied to a reap and sow mentality. Everything was tied to law and consequence. Trying to keep the law, proved impossible and so people got used to the idea of blood sacrafices for the purging of sin. The substitution of jesus, who was sinless, as a permanent sacrafice, was a transition to possibility and an immediate understanding that grace was more sufficient than law. I think somewhat a mental learning to crawl before you walk. The first convenant was the evidence of the need for a second and final covenant.
I suppose its somewhat like allowing my children to learn some lessons the hard way, it does a better job than my incessant saving them.
I think believers would continue to believe in the bible even if the bible said it is itself a lie. If Jesus came down from the skies floating in a river of light and said "the bible is fake" they'd say it's god testing their faith.
And if He were to so appear, what would the unbeliever say? It did not happen!
Dear me. Why the need to attack unbelievers and accuse them of being liars? If it happened - I would not deny it. Please do not call me a liar. Thank you.
Why so desperate in any case? You are saved by grace and no matter how badly you behave - you get your rewards do you not? So - why the need to start fights with people who do not believe the rubbish you believe by saying they would deny something they have seen?
A question is neither a statement or an indictment. A question posed to a question makes no assertion. If a question instigates your call to war then I suspect forums pose difficulty for you.
Dear me. You answered your question quite clearly and you stated quite clearly that - if something should happen - a non believer would lie and deny the happening. It is there in black and white:
Why the need to be untruthful? Is this because you are saved by grace and do not need to follow any ethical standards? I wonder why so many believers need to be untruthful. Perhaps you could explain why you think unbelievers would lie and deny something that actually happened?
And then need to deny that you said it.
And then accuse me of being the one calling for war when you clearly said you think unbelievers would lie.
The Old verses The New Covenant
During the time of the Law giving to Moses, all was under the sin of Adam. being death (Romans 5: 15-19) “For this one man Adam, brought death to many through his sin. But this one man, Yeshua the Messiah, brought forgiveness to many through G-d mercy. Adam one sin brought the penalty of death to many, while the Messiah freely takes away many sins and gives glorious life instead. The sin of this one man, Adam caused death to be king over all, but all who will take G-d gift of forgiveness and acquittal are kings of life..because of this one man, Yeshua the Messiah. Yes, Adam sin brought punishment to all, but the Messiah righteousness makes men right with G-d, so that they can live. Adam caused many to be sinners (because he disobeyed) and the Messiah caused many to be made acceptable to G-d (because He obeyed)”.
Therefore, this is why the covenant was different. The Adam sin caused death because of disobedience. (Romans 5:20) gives reason for the Ten Commandments, when stated: “The Jewish law was the guide under the sin of Adam, while waiting for the arrival of Our Messiah. (Bringing the New Covenant). Says in (Hebrews 10:11) Under the old covenant the priests stood before the altar day after day offering sacrifices that could never take away our sins”. From (Hebrews 7:23) “Under the old covenant there had to be many priests, so that when the older ones died off, the system could still be carried on by others who took their places”.
The New covenant, The obedience of the Messiah, Our L-rd Yeshua was obtained upon His shameful death by execution (Mark 15:34-37-38) Then Yeshua called out with a loud voice, “ELI, Eli, lama sabachthani” (Aramaic) meaning (My G-d, my G-d, why have you deserted me”. (Verse 37) “Then Yeshua uttered another loud cry and dismissed His spirit”. (Verse 38) And the curtain in the temple was split apart from top to bottom”. This Illustration, therefore, took place from G-d to show by the presence of the New Covanant, no longer will there be needed of an earthly priest to go before G-d on behalf of man but the One, being Our L-rd Yeshua to be the “Forever High Priest” to take their place. For Our L-rd Yeshua became the High Priest.(Hebrews 7: 24) “But Yeshua lives forever and continues to be a priest so that no one else is needed”.
The splitting of the curtain was G-d giving the revelation of His promise to His New Covenant from His Son (obedience). The promise of life! And also the establishment of His promise to Abraham. The promise of many descendants.(The now included Gentiles). The curtain was a heavy veil that hung in front of the room in the temple called the “Holy of Holies”; For remember, through scripture only the Israelite priest were allowed to go before G-d for the people in the Holy of Holies but Our L-rd Yeshua act of obedience (At That Moment of death) allowed for the New Covenant, which G-d was showing canceled the old covenant, being death. Allowing for man to go before The L-rd Yeshua and it is He who will plead for man before the Father.
The readings from (Hebrews 8: 7-13) and (Hebrews 9) will give further insight of G-ds better way. (The New Covenant).
(Galatians 3: 8-11) and (Galatians 4) Imply of the New Covenant bringing a promise for Gentiles, the cancellation of the law giving of G-d to Moses and the blessings allowed for Our Messiah obedience.
The portion below is written to offer further understanding of Jews. the orthodox Jews and the Messiah Jews are one and the same, for those orthodox also believe in the One true G-d, the G-d of Abraham, Isacc and Jacob. We both observe Shabbat and all the gift G-d giving celebrations together. (Nothing has Changed). The only difference is the orthodox Jews accept Yeshua our L-rd as a prophet but not the son of G-d. They are still praying faithfully as in Egypt and waiting on the arrival of the Messiah.
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Precisely and honestly speaking they don't follow Moses or Jesus.
Others could differ with me out of their own free will.
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