As far back has recorded American history it seems Christains worked to provide education, health care, and hope. The PBS program below link is about 26 minutes long as the program is titled Religion & Ethics.
Do you think Christians make a difference in life or not?
Not sure about the life part, but some of them can put a hurting on your pocketbook. Actually...Yes Christians do make a difference...some for good others for bad...same as any other Faith or beliefs...some help for good others...not so much...
I'd have to agree with Double on that. Just as ANYONE in the world, some help for good, others help for bad. There are a lot of "fakes" out there, that use religion as a tactic to scam people. Others do it for the right cause, spreading the word, and supporting charities to raise awareness and help to the less fortunate. It's becoming more rare to find these "real" ones any more, the way the world is twisting and becoming even more greedy, wanting money and power.
Organized religion, namely Christianity founded many of the Colonial Colleges- Harvard, William and Mary and many others.
In the United States the traditional hospital is a non-profit hospital, usually sponsored by a religious denomination-wikipedia
Primary or elementary and secondary schools not long ago were usually Churches that also served as one room school houses. These old buildings are still everywhere in the country. Usually the Churches would up donating the property in most cases for public schools.
Without organized religion in the United States, chances are most Americans would be in pretty bad shape as a citizens today. Contrary to that scenario we arguably became the worlds leader as a country.
Christians have made a definite difference in history. There is an incredible amount of good that many would like us to just simply forget about, which is kind of odd, if people are for freedom and good for all. Some would like to rewrite, and deny factual history.
Yes, they seem desperate to deny indisputable facts. A country whose citizens predominantly subscribe to a certain religion rose to be a world leader in many fields, such as education and medicine. Both of which can be directly, almost exclusively in cases, tied to that organized religion's efforts
Sure Christians make a difference but than again so do non-Christians. The religion isn't deserving of praise but the people who help out are. You can tell people to be nice to each other and give to charity and be a good person without needing Christ or any deity or any supernatural motivation. All it takes is empathy.
You cant win a war by parachuting individuals "willy nilly" into a battlefield. Hospitals all across the nation and colleges and secondary schools, indeed had the help of the individual, but couldnt have been as effective without the organization.
Obviously the more organized people are when helping others the better the results. Whether a charity organization is religious or not makes little difference. One doesn't need religion for there to be charity, charity is just one function that Christianity has performed. The actual religious part of the organization is entirely useless.
I've just written a hub about the difference 'christian' cults made in people's lives - sex abuse etc
That will not matter. They were not real Christians. In fact - starting a thread to gloat about how wonderful Christians are is actually against what the bible teaches - and then fighting with people about it is also against what the bible teaches.
There have never been any real Christians I guess.
the bible is quite vague when people can use it to justify slavery, racism, sexual freedom and other such things
Why does the Truth seem like gloating to you? Because you dont like truth?
Seems like more put downs. I think that acknowledging facts of matters, is not gloating at all. We see a lot of people going after things that turn out to based in poor thinking and just put downs of those they disagree with. The OP makes great points, and I wonder if you can answer his question or not, or just keep putting people down? Its a fair question, and it deserves an answer.
Showing people where they are in error, when they are putting others down, is a normal, moral and good thing to do, its not fighting. That is just another put down, clearly.
I think there would be a lot less errors to be corrected if people were more decent with each other and even if people just stuck to the facts. That would help a lot, but we aren't seeing it.
Aww - sorry - how many people have been murdered by Christians?
Lets go with some facts.
Can you address my points? You seem to have missed them all. I address your accusations head on. Thank you. No one is disputing people have killed others. That is an old point. You agree with Jesus there.... Christians shouldn't murder. Those ARE the facts. How about not answering the OP question?
The OP's question? Yes - I am certain that all the children who have been sexually abused by priests have have had a difference made in their lives.
Yes - all the millions murdered by Christians have had a difference made in their lives by Christians - I agree.
Well done. Hold your head high like the OP said.
One minute its 2 billion now its millions, are you talking about atheist regimes or just making stuff up?
Denying the incredible amount of good of Christianity then and now is one route to take, I guess. I think I will side with those that look at all the facts, not just the one side that supports what they want to be true.
No one denies that priests molesting kids is wrong, no one denies that killing others is wrong. You don't address the non christian murderous regimes though, that have done things much more recently. Despite that, Jesus agreed that hurting children is wrong, and killing is wrong. You tend to agree with Christianity, yet attack it very hard. Why is that?
He doesnt have any points or facts unless you count the ones he is "making up"
Absolutely, a huge difference. The question is, what the heck can we do about it?
I can see the value in both your prospectives. It is unfortunate that evil still presents itself in those areas where true love of fellow man is most needed.
I believe personally that it has to do with everyone getting rid of religion. Think about it. Back when prayer was in school, the commandments were in the court, and people weren't so mean about open religious beliefs, things were progressing okay. Now, religious rights are being taken away, and everything is turning for the worse. Just a thought. I'm sure some one will have something to say against this.
If you wish to believe it was "better" with slavery and segregation - that is your choice. A lot of white Americans think this way.
Personally - I find your religious convictions to be disgusting and am glad you have gotten rid of certain aspects. Christian faith is responsible for many ills that - oddly - you want to bring back.
Just as a matter of interest - what religious "rights" have been "taken away" from you?
Interestingly history shows facts like abolitionism being advocated by evangelicals, and quakers at home and abroad.
It also shows opposition by Christians and organized protests by the same.
So - what is your point? You only want credit for the good stuff and we should forget the bad stuff?
Why not? You only talk exclusively about any bad stuff.
What about atheist regimes any good stuff there ever?
I talk about the bad stuff so we do not forget and pretend Christianity is the super duper wondrousness we should be totally proud of.
Just adding a little balance.
Enver Hoxha of Albania first atheist state. First thing they do is start killing people. Couple of decades ago...
Interesting they had the same anti religion hate speech and rhetoric as most of these atheist dictators and nuts always do.
Here is the difference. One set of actions by Christians down the ages CAN be supported by what Jesus actually taught. The other sets of actions, the ones you actually find negative, are also thought of as negative by Christ Jesus. Jesus, the founder of Christianity taught about hypocrites, and how dangerous it was to be like that. People can choose what they want.
Many here, are judging Christianity ONLY by those that break the rules of Christianity. That, oddly, is showing a support for the goodness of Christianity and Jesus. To disagree with killers down the ages, is to agree with Jesus and his apostles, who acted nothing like that and taught the opposite. Whether the killers were christian, atheist, etc.
Being mad at all the great good Christianity has done, that is in keeping with its actual teachings makes no sense. I think the point is about the history of a nation here, and there are facts. Lets keep clear thinking on the issues, and be fair to all actions. To understand what Christianity is and teaches, matters here. Blame the wrongful actions where they belong, the people that did it. They can't say Christianity taught them to do anything bad, when they have to act diametrically opposed to it. This makes sense.
So - yes, you do want the credit for the good Christian acts, but will completely ignore the bad. LOLOLOLOLOL
I thought you guys had personal relationships with Jesus in any case - now you are saying it is a religion out of a book. Which is it?
I understand what Christianity is and teaches. You are living proof no one follows what is in the bible because it specifically tells you not to crow about your religion and not to fight with unbelievers.
A true Christian.
Ocean is living proof of 1 Peter 3:15. It's obvious that you do not know Christianity and what it teaches.
Telling the truth is gloating and crowing?
So your worldview is that you think you can belittle other human beings on a daily basis without having to ever answer for it?
Man, I'd think I'd find a better worldview. Who would want to be like that? Dumping on people with no accountability. Sounds more like a spoiled childs mentality not the worldview of a grown man.
Mark, you can laugh at me and avoid my points and showing of facts all you like. I don't like how you keep accusing of things that simply aren't true. I have never once ignored anyone's killings. In facts, the christians in this thread will acknowledge all the killings.
What I am trying to do, is point out some facts that are indisputable, and encourage an honest answer to a simple question in the OP. Why is that so difficult if it is? Instead, we get more put downs, and laughing at those you disagree with? You can have a good laugh with yourself I guess, but not at my expense, not when I have been civil and pointing out the good and facts. Are you able to address the actual points, or comment how your other points have been refuted? The negative behavior doesn't cover the ignoring of the facts. It just shows how you operate in your own worldview, it seems to me.
Look at Paul and Jesus for example, to your last point. They actually had answers very often to their accusers. Paul debated with best theologians of his day. You don't get a free pass for put downs, and then when people answer the distortions and put downs, put them down even more to try to discredit them. That isn't right of you. I would like to request, again, that we stick with some facts, and please avoid the put downs and negativity. I think that is possible and great for good forum discussions.
oceansnsunset, Your messages makes plenty of sense to me.
It was Christian principles that helped put an end to slavery. Both here and overseas.
Dear me. Funny stuff. 2,000 years of enslaving people - and it was Kristian principals wot moved the slaves to China where u can't see them.
Kristian? Wot? Is that baby talk or troll speak?
Just making fun of your ridiculous beliefs and inability to follow your bible.
Kristians Kausing Konflict.
How very Kristian of you to attack me thus.
No wonder you get "persecuted." LOL
You admit to making fun of people and trolling but "you are the victim"?
You stop stating such funny beliefs - I stop laughing at you.
I have neither the time or inclination to feed a troll.
A genuine Kristian I see. Attack those who do not believe. I think I am reasonably well established here and the fact that I think your religion is disgusting does not make me a troll.
No one is attacking you for what you believe or don't believe. I am just calling you on your admitted trolling and childlike behavior of "making fun " and the baby talk or troll speak whatever it is. If you would like to have a civilized "grown up" discussion , I would be more than willing to accommodate you. That is what is reasonable.
I thought you were done?
If you don't want people to make fun of your beliefs - you should not have such funny beliefs. Simple really.
I dont have a problem with people making fun if you dont have a problem with being called a troll and infantile.
Why would you insult me thus? I thought Kristians did not attack others - like wot Jeebus sed?
I don't care what insults you offer - your opinions are meaningless and simply prove that you do not practice what you preach.
You are the one insulting people. Would you care to debate like a grownup without the troll talk ? Is this your worldview? Why would anyone want to be like that?
Sure. Lets talk like grown ups and drop the Invisible Super Being.
An Intelligent designer is reasonable cosmological model. Just as reasonable as any other cosmological model or theory. You can try to discount it and call it an Invisible Super Being if the very notion frightens your intellect if you like.IDC
The OP is the indisputable fact that Christianity as an organized religion developed much of the education, hospitals in the United States over the last 2 centuries. Do you have a comment?
Please provide some proof or argument in favor of an intelligent designer and then go ahead and show me some argument in favor of the Kristian god as being this.
I thought you wanted an intelligent conversation?
The correct spelling is "Christian" but I'm guessing you know that and refuse to stop trolling.
Be that as it may...
The universe denotes having ingrained information. Information denotes intelligence.
The original topic is the impact that Christianity had on hospitals, hope and education. Do you have a comment on that?
No - I guess you did not bother reading did you? The original topic was "Do Christians Make A Difference In People's Lives?"
Sure they do. I already said. Millions murdered and untold numbers of children raped. Made a big difference I am sure.
YAY! Go Kristians!
Still - it does not matter as Pol Pot was a atheist....
Apparently you didn't read the post where it talks specifically about education and hospitals? You can't back up your claims with sources or facts, on the other hand atheists and their atheist regimes like Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin, Hoxla all wanted a religion free society and mass murdered 60- 100 million human beings. Not 500 years ago. Decades ago.Those are the facts.
You agree with Jesus, over and over Mark, yet you call Christianity disgusting, not giving one good reason for saying so.
You cite people that act opposite of Chrisitianity to make your points, but you refute them the minute you do so. How does this help you or benefit you that you keep doing it?
It does not. I just want you to stop the fighting. Is that too much to ask?
Christianity is a scam on people- the religion itself. Throw out everything in the bible that has nothing to do with Jesus and then throw out anything that is myth.
Then, you might have the right perspective about Jesus, up to the point- you can figure out what his individual perceived "god" concept/metaphor actually stood for in the first place.
It doesn't benefit Mark at all, because Mark isn't trying to teach them anything. He is simply stating what he can prove versus other people's beliefs.
Don't be baited... its an old game.
Mark, how about some facts? Thanks
Mark, does your worldview support your current behavior in this forum and elsewhere?
Absolutely. Yes. Arguing in favor of education instead of perpetuating myths as reality? Sure. You do not think that is OK?
So you would be glad to know Christianity as an organization founded many of the first colleges since you favor education.
What you consider myths, is just your opinion. I believe there are many myths. I believe there is truth in some myths. I , nor anyone else can say absolutely what is absolute truth. Knowledge is finite and the truth is infinite. Unless you claim to be all knowing, what you "believe and what you dont believe' is still just a belief.
Great points, and you make a lot of sense Phoenix. That is good to bring it back around to education and the main point. That was part of the whole point, that education is a good thing. Those who helped to make it an actual possibility any time in history like in the point of the OP is a good thing. I am all for education. Stating that something is a myth that can't be proven as a myth is just one sharing a belief. Christianity doesn't at all "act" or look like what myths act and look like.
Wow, then I find that a worldview I would want nothing to do with. You haven't been arguing in favor of education, you have been laughing maniacally at people, and putting them down, that is the behavior I am speaking of.
It is me that has been encouraging you to come back to some points, and even asking with a please, to address the facts instead of the put downs.
You haven't established the OP is a myth, and are still denying the facts there, and pointing to things Christianity condemns. That supports the person making the original point, ironically. More put downs that anyone here is perpetuating a myth isn't helpful. I don't think how you are acting is ok, no, since you asked. Its not cool to put people down until they just don't want to take it anymore, then when called on it (by saying its troll like behavior, etc)say they are attacking you. That is an old tactic, and I am calling it out.
I say, let us all back up, and get to some facts here, and address the very good points, and not with more put downs or big LOLOL, that isn't helpful and makes one look like they are out of points.
Mark, What 2000 years of enslaving people are you speaking of? Where can you cite in the scriptures, that Christianity teaches that? Its true Mark, it is Christian principles that ended slavery here and overseas. You don't have to like history, but to deny it is pointless right?
I appreciate your contributions and so-what if someone says something-heck that's been going on for ages but Christians are still here and they have proven their worth so hold your heads high Christian unlike some nothing more then loud mouths have tried to do for our fellow man.
I especially liked the witch burnings. Segregation was great. Wiping out the Native Americans was cool as well. Look at the fights you start nowadays. 2,000 years of wars. Congrats. Be proud.
Yay Christians! GO! You are the BEST EVER RELIGION !!
22 witches 400 years ago pales in comparison to what atheist regimes have done in the last 60 years.
You guys were burning witches across Europe for 1,000 years.
Oh wait - that is OK because Pol Pot was a atheist.
Millions killed by atheist dictators , recently not 1000 years ago .
Whats your excuse?
Only you didnt found colleges or hospital.
Good point. I was online the other day and the site I was on estimated 70 million dead in the last fifty years by people such as you are speaking of. I guess it's the old' log in your eye' problem for some.
I do thing that being absorbed in religion provides methods for individuals to make outreach - whether through being part of programs at their place of worship, or through efforts of their own undertaking.
I do not think that pointing all the accolades to any one religion's efforts over another is proper. The real truth is that goodwill and charity come from the person, not the faith system.
Propriety and the Truth may not always agree. What is improper is to deprecate the good things done.
Gamergirl, I may have missed it, but I don't think that anyone here is trying to keep from giving any accolades to other religions here, by pointing out the good Christianity has done for America in particular since its beginnings. Am I wrong? I don't its either proper or not, to discuss the factual matters regarding what has been done in America since its beginnings.
Any other religion having such an incredible influence can also be shared here, or for other countries perhaps as well. Its not an exclusion of them though, to point out the good one has done, correct?
As for the faith system, if a faith system teaches the people that follow it to do good things , and they do those things, then the good will and charity can definitely be linked to the faith system. Do you disagree, and if so, why?
I know this was not asked of me but I wanted to give my answer anyway. I disagree with linking good deeds to faith because to do so means that you must also link bad deeds to faith, instead of having personal responsibility.
The religious often do not like to have the terrorists of their faith who kill abortion doctors linked to their religion, and have the versus from the Bible and the teachings of Jesus used to justify those acts.
The religious person says, judge not my religion by the acts of those fanatics who are not 'true Christians' and commit evil acts while using the bible to justify it. You cannot let a religion take credit for the good deeds of people and not then demand they take responsibility for the evils done in the name of religion by evil people.
Where does Jesus teach that its ok to murder?
“Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." Matthew 10:21
“He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” Matthew 15:4-7
I wonder if you "christians" have actually read this book?
Matthew 10:21 is where Jesus is accurately foretelling the persecution of those that follow Him and what will happen. In no stretch of the imagination does it advocate or teach murder. For you to take something "that obviously out of context" and present it here is very telling of your own belief system. Is that the sum of "your worldview"?
Matthew 15:4-7 is Jesus pointing out the hypocrisy of the Pharisees that allowed adults forsaking their parents that may have been in dire need so that the Pharisees could have that money or support instead. Do you think it is ok to allow your parents to die from neglect so that Pharasees can get paid? Do you think its a good thing to curse and forsake your parents in need? Do you think that is a good thing? To abandon your own parents to neglect when they could be old and infirm? I think a person would be "better off dead" than to be as such.
I cant believe that you would turn your back on your own parents, so you could keep the money instead.
Now all that has passed away because there was no profit, from a human or moral standpoint to follow these type of laws. Quite the contrary, in light of someone would have to be without sin to carry out an order such as that.. I on the on the hand am not Jesus that could forgive some loser for abandoning his parents just so he could be greedy.
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law:
for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified
Some loser that kept the cash and made excuses why he was allowed to curse and forsake his parents would get off scott free just as when they wanted to stone to death that woman they presented to Christ.
Because thats what Jesus taught.
Thanks for pointing out the facts, and explaining it in such detail. Some people in an attempt to discredit, actually show support for Jesus and his teachings. Such distortions only help to deceive and twist truths if they are maintained after being shown the factual errors.
Mark, those verses are talking about people that will be hurting christians, and it is not Christians being told to do that. Those that hurt their own Christian brothers (Non christians hurting their christian brothers) is and will always be wrong. Look at the whole chapter to understand the context.
Jesus goes on to say don't fear those that can just kill the body (what we see many regimes in history doing to many innocents), but can't kill the soul.
You posted verses showing that Jesus was right, actually. We see people in the world that like to do that, or would want to kill. Their worldviews fail at that point, on just an immoral point, btw.
Matthew 15 is harsh words for the pharisees and hypocrites, Jesus is saying how wrong they are. Again, if you read the verses in their context you will find that to be true. I have read it, and read it all, many times.
So - you agree. Jesus did say harsh words and suggest killing. I know.
I posted verses answering a question. Jesus did not actually exist, but thanks for showing Christians can not and do not follow what the bible says.
You are a living example of that.
You posted verses that werent remotely in context.
That so huh? You asked - I provided.
But - unless you are a bronze age goat herder - none of it is "in context."
YAY! GO Kristians! 2 billion pagans murdered or converted! LOL
Why are you so angry?
2 billion ? Maybe you are confused with Mcdonalds. There is no truth in your statements. Is that baby talk ?
I think when it gets difficult to spell Christians, and you see a lot of laughing and ongoing avoiding of the points, its not going to go anywhere. Ask to get back to the point of the OP maybe. I keep asking him to. You don't want to push too hard maybe, I think its clearly very difficult to accept the truths of Christianity, the great good it has done for so long.
Putting words in people's mouths that they didn't say isn't good debate. You didn't provide, and two people shared in detail to prove how you were wrong in your accusations. They are not supported, but the opposite of what you are saying IS supported. The context is clear for all, can you stop please with the put downs and accusations?
You have lost all the points you tried to make in this thread, and still never answered the question the OP asked. Can we get back to that at least?
Jesus doesn't teach its ok to murder, and actually teaches the opposite. He teaches to love, forgive, and pray for your enemies even. Do good to people, give above and beyond if asked of you. These are principles that if more people followed, would make for more great societies everywhere. This is why Christianity is such an attractive world view in part, besides that it gives such hope for the human condition. When you see people put a worldview down that teaches such good, there is more going on there.
KirstenBlog, you need to know what Christianity teaches first, before you can really speak fairly on the topic. When you know what it teaches, and then you see good deeds, then you CAN link it to the faith, very rightly so. Also if you see people murdering, or doing awful things, and go look for that teaching, you won't find it from Jesus or the apostles. My point is that some behaviors ARE backed, and some are NOT. Many here are using those behaviors they call negative, and they are, and blaming it wrongly on christianity. That isn't right, when Christianity agrees with them that it is wrong. This is simple facts and logic here.
Kirsten, no one is justifying anything. I call evil actions evil, but some here are calling it "christian" when it is not. That is just an error and an accusation on top of it. Get this, I DO call the wrong things wrong, I don't approve. Please don't accuse people of such things, that isn't right. I do demand they take responsibility, but before I ever did, Jesus already did send that message. None of this should be any surprise to the person that knows what Christianity actually teaches.
I will continue to ask that you do judge a religion fairly, no matter what it is. The name calling and put downs we see in the forums is not right, and its "easy" as well. ANYONE can find the heretics of a religion, point to them and say, "ahhh, that religion is bad!" but it will never make that a fact. Hope that clears some things up.
You are certainly entitle to your belief but that doesn't mean your belief is right- It's just your belief.
I'm guessing from your response that unless I agree with you that only Christianity has made leaps and bounds of charity, goodwill, and general uplifting of mankind, you're going to pass over my responses entirely?
I have to agree with what you stated really. Yeah, the faith system was a big jump for it, but now-a-days a lot of charities are starting from people's own good will, wanting to help make a good difference in other's lives.
Setting aside the religion of a person for a moment - whether religious beliefs precipitate charity and goodwill and the 'making of a difference in people's lives' really comes first from the heart of the person. That's all I'm really trying to point out. I'd hate to see the entirety of human history be discounted in their monumental efforts.
Well of course (: Sadly though, too many people are about being over-protective of their beliefs or non-beliefs, that they treat each other poorly, just because they HAVE to be right about their ways. I understand defending and standing up for what you believe in, but to take it to a point where the arguments keep going and you can't settle on an agreement is rather annoying.
Some people are able to see the damage that christians have done and are doing in the world. As a way of living your own life it is hard to argue with a person's freedom to do and believe what they want but when it tries to impose its disproven and discredited arguments and unfinished wars onto the modern world it is a major cause of division and destruction.
Here in China I occasionally visit the churches and meet up with christians hard at work trying to persuade the sensible, peaceful and pretty much non-aggressive Chinese people that the earth was made 7000 years ago, adam and ever are real people and the world is going to end soon. This moronic teaching only attracts simple uneducated people and causes problems and unneccesary misery in their lives. Hopefully the good general education that is now free for kids will counter the bs.
China, you are looking at your country, and in the wrong places then, if you see they are trying to force it on people. No one can really prove when the earth was made, not even science. They have their "guess" and us believers have our "guess." You are very close minded if you think science has proof for everything they say. Yeah, I'll agree some christians have done damage, but those aren't the ones believing for the right reasons, and many aren't even real christians, they use the beliefs as a way to scam people.
Qwark, you can't be serious. Two thumbs up? The guy didn't make a valid point. And for all we know his' visits' were probably to get the names of people for a communist government to either watch, or persecute. Don't encourage prejudice to someone who lives is a country that freely persecutes people whose beliefs don't fit the party line. We disagree, sometimes vehemently, but at the end of the day that was all it was. A disagreement. People in China can eally pay with their lives.
if I gave him thumbs up, it was after reading and digesting what he offered.
I'm not perfect. Just like everyone in the forums. all I can do is offer opinion.
Life would be boring if we all agreed all the time.
Thanks for the comeback! :
Oh for goodness sake grow up and get a life ! I have just got back from Beihai where a couple of Baptist churches are going full belt every evening, in the main street here in Guilin there is at least one christian church, Taoists practice religious ceremonies in the street to cleanse or bless the new buildings and roads etc, Buddhist temples hold their services all over China.
As China relaxes its restrictions the US increases theirs - You are the only ones with an over-active Homeland security and 25% of the world's prison population !
To Gamergirl, you said:
"I'm guessing from your response that unless I agree with you that only Christianity has made leaps and bounds of charity, goodwill, and general uplifting of mankind, you're going to pass over my responses entirely?"
Did SpanStar actually say that only Christianity has made leaps and bounds of charity, goodwill, and general uplifting of mankind? Or is that what you are inserting, and then making a point with? I didn't get that at all, and thought he was just asking if people think Christians make a difference life? What do you think?
You don't have to agree with me at all-I truly do mean that because the only point I'm making here is while other people were doing all they can for themselves Christian were helping and trying to help when American was first discovered, by being the first school teachers in this land, helping those in need and it's been recorded time and time again where I don't see school books for non believers doing the same thing during the same time periods.
What about all of the religions that came before Christianity and their contributions to mankind as a whole? There are far more recorded cases of people of all religions holding out their hands to give, opening their mouths to teach, and sharing what they can spare for the sake of simply helping another. Why narrow to such a fine point as to acknowledge the contributions of those who identify as Christians in the face of thousands upon thousands of years of human kindness?
Probably because if with the merciful efforts done by Christians they constantly remain under attack. They have put up with those who bite the hand that feeds them.
Christianity is the scam on people from previous educated elites of the past. How ironic?
Couldn't say. None that I know of have made one to my life. I've been helped by a few people of late - a lot. None were Christian.
I've helped many people out over the years - I was christened one.
I think the point is that it has helped the country as a whole in some very concrete undeniable ways and was the worldview that was held by many of the founding fathers. This great country came out of people that were Christians, even though they left a lot of that out of their laws, they didn't believe in forcing it, and believed in freedom for all. That came out of a group of people that are on record in history as being Christians. Hospitals and the Universities, education and schools followed later.
I assume you've heard of Portugal. In that case - back in the early 1930's. António de Oliveira Salazar became the president of Portugal.
I use the word 'became' lightly - because he forced his way in. He was a Catholic. He delivered some seemingly welcome reforms regarding the political and social welfare of the country.
He also crushed the nation underfoot. Those that could leave did so. Eventually his authoritarian regime created one of the poorest countries in Europe.
He used catholicism and its doctrines as his founding principles. In short - he ruined the nation.
This man: Aristides De Sousa Mendes was also Catholic, Portuguese and lived during Salazars 'reign'. He helped thousands - the cost being (eventually) his life and that of his wife.
Poles apart, same religion. So my opinion of whether christians make a difference in peoples lives is similar to the story of the these two men - it depends on their character.
Being religious is not mutually exclusive with being righteous, honorable or even halfway decent. And neither does it denote any one individual or group as being helpful to those around them.
I don't agree with the beliefs of Catholicism, and worry they stray too far from the Bible and words of Jesus and the apostles.
I appreciate you sharing your facts about Portugal, and that is unfortunate.
Its still undeniable the amount of Christian good that has been done for America, which was the point of the OP. I am not familiar with how ones catholic beliefs could ruin a whole nation, nor do I know how it could.
That said, it probably wasn't good decisions he made, obviously, but also, you can't back those decisions as being taught by Jesus. You can't take away a person personal choices, and their freedoms and force them to align with all the teachings of Jesus. In fact, Christianity addresses how people don't follow the teachings, yet claim to be religious. Those kinds of people got the truest, harshest words from Jesus in the NT. That is amazing, it wasn't for the worst sinners, it was for the "religious" that did wrong things, and had wrong motives, whose heart wasn't right.
My reading of the original post, was that he was just asking a question and talking about history. Thanks for sharing what you did though.
Why would anyone with an Oz of sense, want to "debate" religion?
Debate requires argument. Why "argue" if there can be no winner?
To debate "religion" would be an "exercise in futility!"
Only a fool would participate.
There are so many "fools!"
Qwark, people are being lied about and put down pretty severely, and if the reasons turn out to be very poor reasons, then its a good thing to try and stop such negative behavior.
The OP didn't need people to respond in such ways as we saw from some on this board, to go after a religion like they did. Its not a nonsensical thing, to want poor treatment of others to stop. I think that is a very sensible thing, and something I hope hubpages would support.
I see homeless people sitting on the lawn of a very pretty church.
The steeple rises high into the sky where afternoon breezes gently position a "weather cock" which indicates the direction of the wind.
The homeless folks pay it no attention. They sit sharing what little food and drink they have and chatting about where there next "buck" is gonna come from so they can eat tomorrow.
I wonder what that USELESS "steeple" and weather cock cost to construct and install? No doubt they were very expensive.
I drive by and wonder why church prelates and planners, couldn't have used that wasted money better and make the lives of those sitting on the lawn, a little better.
After all, the church would still function without it, just as well as it does with it.
I'm sure that thought never entered their fatuous, misdirected, "money" oriented thinking.
I visited vatican city many years ago and was flabbergasted at the overt oppulence being displayed. All-the-while beggars asking for handouts on the streets of Rome.
Oh yes, christians make a difference in peoples lives. They offer lip service and live beyond "well," while others are poor and overtly suffering.
I see homeless people sleeping at the Jesus house and eating at the downtown mission. Where were you ?
Thats the "lip service" that is offered.
An occassional meal and a bed.
"Maybe" a blanket if it's cold.
Religious "posturing" is alive and well!
My expression of DISGUST for the farcical religious portrayal of magnanimous love and giving, worldwide, is obvious!
Qwark, I am not a Catholic, but before you go and put them down, did you know they feed and help a lot of people all the time? They help abused women and children, etc. What are you suggesting the church do more to help those poor people? Even if they leveled their pretty church, how does that help the poor?
They are doing very very much, and so I am not understanding what your point is. The catholic church actually continues to help in so many ways, how is that disgusting exactly? Sure you can always find people living well, and others poor. All people of all worldviews do that. My non catholic church does a LOT to help the poor in our area. My boys donate a lot of their time every week to this. I am not bragging, but the suggestion that there is disgust towards those that are ACTUALLY making a HUGE difference is just another way to put people down, and that seems just so wrong to me. To those that are trying SO hard to make a big difference and getting it done despite how others talk about them. We find opposite things to be disgusting I guess?
I just got back from dinner with friends.
I've read all your responses.
Firstly, you are only guessing when you mention anything this jesus alledgedly did or said. You "know" nothing about him.
Secondly, vatican city is worth billions! I said BILLIONS!
Thirdly a very inexpensive metal building could be used to worship this mythical god thing! Use the massive amounts of $ needed to build these monstrous edifices to "nothing," to aid and assist the needy around the world!
Fourthly, religion is a moneymaking business! Tax it like any other capitalistic corporation.
I'm not going to waste time offering more reasons to create my disgust for the fallacy of religious good.
For those that seen poor people sitting on those pretty steps of the church then we can rest ensured that you've taken action and helped feed, cloth, those poor people since you believe the no body and especially the Christian aren't and can't do anything for these people right?
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