Sacrafice

1. 75

   the pink umbrellaposted 13 years ago

   Why did "God" need to send someone here to be murdered for OUR sins?

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   1. 77

      Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      When some one tell me happiness is a man suffering on a cross and if you do not join this group his Father will have Satan take me to hell.
      
      I say, RUN AWAY, Run away, run away....

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   2. 0

      just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I think it is difficult for us to understand because we weren't raised in a belief structure where  ritual sacrifice was a way of life. This was meant to end it, once and for all. Which it eventually did. Horrible? Yes. Necessary for the turning of people toward a better way of trying to forge a relationship with their creator? I think so. God, in His mercy, was willing to go the distance for His creation.

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   3. 75

      the pink umbrellaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      You know, you guys really arent answering my question. Why did someone have to die for the sins of man? You act like God was just following the rules, and so he sent someone down for the sacrafice. I think its barbaric, cruel, and evil minded to make someone die for the sins of others. And what do you mean Jesus was the most perfect sinless sacrafice? No way, not buying it.

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      1. 76

         Shadesbreathposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         As I understand the story, it was because God looked down and thought, "Wow, humans are really awful creatures." He was so dissapointed with how selfish and cruel and shallow humanity was, he was just going to wipe them all out. Maybe start over. Maybe just get a dog and call it quits.
         
         But then Jesus was all, "God, they aren't all bad. Let me go down there and set them straight." And he made the case that humanity was salvageable and came down and did his thing. But mankind learns slow, so, to postpone God's wrath (because God is hard core like that), Jesus offered himself up, sort of an "all in one" punishment deal.
         
         The God of the Bible is harsh. He has no problems wiping out towns, flooding out millions, turning people into salt. Jesus was the guy who wanted to step in and take the punch for everyone. He was the perfect one to do it because, he wasn't really human, he was a god in human form. So, it only SEEMS like it was cruel to kill him.
         
         So, if you read the Christian mythology in that way, it's not cruel. In fact, it wasn't that much of a sacrafice, given that Jesus knew he wasn't going to "really" die, and, Jesus was in no risk of going to eternal torture and damnation like we all have going for us if we don't play the game right.
         
         Bottom line, God in the Bible is brutal and vain, and if you don't do it his way, it's kaputs for you. His way isn't bad, mind you, it's mostly about being nice, etc. It's sort of like if your father told you as a kid, "Go mow thy neighbor's lawn, or I'm going to stab you with this knife."

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         1. 82

            CMHypnoposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            It does beg the question as to why an all powerful god made a bunch of humans that he didn't like much.  Wouldn't it have been easier to just make us perfect in the first place?
            
            Or maybe he is just a sadist who created a bunch of sinners so he could enjoy punishing them, and then send his son down to die horribly as the grand finale?
            
            Also if Jesus saved the world, then why has nothing changed?
            
            Not my kind of religious thinking - I am not a sinner and I do not need saving.  Just an ordinary human with both good and bad points.
            
            Mind you, I think that I have just given up my ticket on the rapture bus LOL!

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            1. 81

               pennyofheavenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Because people have not snapped out of the duality buzz.

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      2. 81

         pennyofheavenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         No one made Jesus do any thing he did not choose himself. The murdering of Jesus as you so aptly put it was a decision made by man, not God.
         
         Just as witches were burned at the stake and criminals were beheaded. These decisions were all made by man.
         
         Jesus as I understand it, demonstrated well how man could live in this world no matter what government and no matter what man made rule, religious or otherwise, were in place. A world that saw God as outside themselves. The fact that most human beings do not use the innate power within them was evident then and evident now.  He proved more often than not that each and every person has the ability to rise above the perceived limitations often dictated by conditioning.

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         1. 60

            Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            This is funny logic, when a believer does something good based on their religious beliefs, they thank and praise their gods, yet when they commit atrocities based on their religious beliefs, it's all man's fault. Hilarious contradiction.

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            1. 81

               pennyofheavenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Yes for some that is true. Any good is mans doing as well in my opinion.

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   4. 78

      skyfireposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Burning desire to do timepass with species on planet earth ?

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   5. 60

      Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Why indeed? And, what exactly did he send?
      
      Did he send a god?
      Did he send a man?
      Did he send and god dressed in a man suit?
      
      Only when we answer these questions can we assert there was actually a murder committed.

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      1. 77

         Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         the pink umbrella
         
         Romans invented business, so most likely the greedy men figure out a way to control the masses based on pain and fear (like hell) mix with love and good intention of Jesus. Jesus was the best thing at that time of hardship since in mid evil times they only lived to the right old age of mid 20s, Jesus die at a very old man at age 33. What's to lose by doing magic tricks the Roman's did like, so they crucifix him, than later on, Romans invented the concept of hell.
         
         The big thing in Christianity is to forgive, you would think they would forgive and cancel hell and report Jesus to amnesty, then move on. Amnesty has an excellent record of not having men nailed to a cross;
         On the other hand...
         Christian believe being nailed to cross is the greatest gift to give to god. Since man is not good, God alone is good.
         
         A man from Montreal actually had himself nailed to a cross and did the total reenactments of Jesus crucifix. (jack a*s) He survived well enough and that goes to show you that Jesus could of rise from the dead and maybe moved to India to get away from the Romans. I think Jesus was an intelligent man, so the most logical choice is to save your a*s, as it is written in the bible.

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   6. 75

      the pink umbrellaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      All i am saying, is that no matter what the reason, if Jesus was a man, then he could certainly feel pain. So if he was supposedly sent down here to be crucified and whipped and tortured just so that i can have forgiveness, than that makes me angry.
      
      And you know what, i think Jesus was a man that did exist, but i think the christians have it all wrong. I even heard a priest say that the books in the new testiment were different because they were written for different areas.
      
      Also, um, i really dont think he was the son of god.
      
      And, he spent most of his time telling everyone that heaven was everywhere, they just didnt see it.
      
      I dont know, my thoughts are a little muddled right now as i am wicked tired, but seriously....

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      1. 77

         Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Pink
         In ancient times it started with sacrificing goats. Here is a commandment from God that the first-born were to be set aside for Him.  It seems that religion is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; it sickens me too, to see everything that is cruel.
         
         Was Jesus murdered or was he not, many Muslim and Hindus believe he survive and went off to India
         
         Sacrifice is obedience, although obedience is not necessarily sacrifice. While all these things may be sacrifice, in the modern sense of having to give something up that you would rather keep,
         
         Nothing that we do in this life will earn us salvation, so what is the purpose of sacrifice.
         
         “Obedience is better than sacrifice” Says who? Dictators, no wonder the greedy thought it would be a great idea to bring followers and money their way. Today there more Suicide deaths than terrorist, murder and war combined. I hope some of them do not think this the greatest gift to God or how many are just dying to get into heaven?

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      2. 0

         SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         So are you saying that you would be angry if I was tot ake a punishment for your wrongdoing?  I mean if you did something wrong that deserved your banning from HubPages but I allowed myself to be banned in your place, you would be angry?

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         1. 71

            Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            I would be.

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               SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Why?
               
               Would you be angry with me over  it?  Who would you be angry with?

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               1. 71

                  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  I hold my self accountable first off. Secondly, if there was an authority, such as Hubpages, and they were going to ban you for something I did, then it is unacceptable.
                  Of course not.
                  
                  I would be angry with the individual who allowed you to be banned because of me. It's irrational to ban you for someone else's action.

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         2. 75

            the pink umbrellaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            SirDent- you ask me that as if my answer shocks you. Yes, i would be angry. It is not for you to take my punnishment. Whatever i have done wrong, deserves every bit of consequence.
            
            I would hope that HubPages would give me another shot at things, but if they were like "no, its either you leave, or someone volunteers to leave for you" Then id be outta here faster than you could say "ill go, pink."
            
            Its not up to others to take blame for my actions, or to take the result of my bad decisions.
            
            How then, does one truely learn from a mistake, if they are not the ones that have to live with the result?

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            1. 0

               SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Sorry.  Bad analogy on my part. 
               
               You too, Cagsil.

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   7. 71

      Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Hey Pink,
      
      No one sent Jesus. He came to those he helped willingly. He used his own mind to make a choice.
      
      There is no god. Therefore, Jesus wasn't sent by anyone or anything.
      
      Jesus' message is the only thing to be concerned about, including whether or not, he lived. The overall message Jesus brought to people is the message people should be practicing. The message also goes against everything the church wants people to do, which proves Jesus existed at some point.
      
      Jesus despised religion, god-kings, oracles and rulers at the time he lived. He knew people were being forced into believing in a god that did not exist. Jesus brought the metaphor 'god' to the people, so his work would not be noticed. His meaning was one of self mastery- to be god in one's life, by controlling all thoughts and actions, by loving oneself and others, while having compassion for those who do not know how to do the same.

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   8. 88

      Paragliderposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Hi pink umbrella. You can have fun with your question by picking off all the implied assumptions, starting from the left:
      
      Did "God" need to send someone here to be murdered for OUR sins?
      Before asking why, did it really happen?
      Is there a God? Your quote marks suggest that this too is uncertain.
      Does any such God have needs? Does he send people to do things?
      Was Jesus murdered?
      Was the explanation of 'for our sins' tacked on later?
      And finally, is there any need for the concept of sin?
      
      In other words, long before we get to the Peters and Pauls of this world, there is so much unsubstantiated stuff presented in the Bible that it seems almost pointless to worry about the end game.
      Good question

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   9. 60

      Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      HI Ms. Pink umbrela.
      
        Let me see if I am hearing the question correctly.
      
        But allow me to change the word  "sacrifice" to redeem  or redemption.
      
        From a biblical prospective; a mans' sin is  debt owed unto the Lord.
      As was the custom of the day which everyne would have undrstood  at that time, the ideology of redemption,
        If you were to have owed a debt to your neighbor which you were unable to pay, he would have had the legal right to sell you into bondage for  a specific period of time for a specific mount of money.     This would have paid your debt. And you would have had to serve that specific mount of time under bondage.
      
        As was customary in the day; a family member or friend was permitted to pay your debt, saving you from the experience of bondage, 
      
        As is written in scripture, Jesus paid the price for our debt with his suffering and death, thus we receive redemption from Jesus Christ. 
      
        This was done this way because the accuser (Satan) would have stood before the throne accusing the Lord of not abiding by his proclamation of  death being the price we must pay for our sins. Satan would have considered this as a dirty trick. Jesus redeeming us for our sins.  But this was fair according to the rules of the game.  God wins, we win.
      
         I'm tired,  I didn't explain this properly; but I think it  went down something like that.

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      1. 75

         the pink umbrellaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         I do appreciate you taking the time to explain, and i gues real or not, the story makes sense for the time it was written in, however, sins being debt, and blood being payement, and being okay with someone suffering a horrific death, and then be satisfied...jeez God, whats the matter with you?

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   10. 0

       The Minstrelposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       All I know is that the world changed when a carpenter proclaiming himself to be the Son of God died the most horrific death and rose again from the dead. There is no tomb today. Billions of lives have changed. Forgiveness given. sicknesses healed. My kidneys were healed in the name of Jesus. No other name has that kind of power and love. I don't live under a guilt trip anymore because I've been forgiven by his death. It was more than enough. Bless you pink umbrella.

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          Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          It is unfortunate that is all you know.
          
          
          
          You know that to be untrue. Why do we have hospitals and doctors?
          
          
          
          Sure they were. 

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2. 61

   knolyourselfposted 13 years ago

   Don't know but whatever it is - not my problem.
   I gave up the guilt trip stuff long time ago. I don't feel guilty for anything that I personally do not do. Feels great.

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3. 58

   lovelypaperposted 13 years ago

   You're all being deceived. Jesus was the only
   perfect,  sinless sacrifice that could save a lost world. God doesn't'
   send anyone to Hell. He gives us free will to choose to accept His forgiveness. We decide where we go by choosing to either accept Christ or reject Him. He's not a dictator.He loves you.

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   1. 77

      Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Lovely
      You choose to either to accept Christ or reject Him. He's not a dictator
      
      
      Is that any thing like what GW Bush said?
      
      You are either for us or you are with the terrorist
      
      Why, because God loves you,
      
      Huh

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      1. 0

         SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Deu 30:19  I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
         
         It really is your choice to make.

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      DoubleScorpionposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Actually..speaking of dictator....they do give you a choice as well...same as "god"...do things my way...or suffer the consequences...but the choice is yours...do do and live or to not and die...Free will is a spiritual choice without consequences... and if Jesus was perfect then please explain this passage of the bible...
      
      Matthew 19:17
        “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”
      
      Mark 10:18
        “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.

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         Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         That would make me feel really bad about myself and guilty, if I believe it.

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      just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Hi lovelypaper, I'm a Christian too, and I believe my salvation can only come through Christ; but don't you think that since the resurrection was so long ago, God in His mercy can understand that it is very difficult for some to believe? You do think there are other ways, assuredly not as easy as the path you follow, but other ways to become one with God in the afterlife?

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   4. 75

      the pink umbrellaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      lovelypaper- go sit on a tac. and i mean that in the nicest way

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4. 61

   knolyourselfposted 13 years ago

   Or fifty-fifty Heaven or Hell. Is it an offer I
   can't refuse?

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5. 53

   Elisah1957posted 13 years ago

   Shadesbreath,
   
   out of all the post, even though spoken rather abruptly; A very good analogy. G-d is the creator, He is G-d, He is not common. These are the things G-d said to Isaiah when addressing Israel (Isaiah 45:6-12) ...I'm the L-rd and there is no once else. I alone am G-d. I form the light and make the dark. I send good times and bad. I, the L-rd, am He who does these things. Open up O Heavens. Let the skies pour out their righteousness. Let salvation and righteousness sprout up together from the earth. I, the L-rd, created them. Woe to the man who fights with His creator. Does the pot argue with its maker? Does the clay dispute with Him who forms it, saying “stop, you're doing it wrong!” or the pot exclaim, “How clumsy can you be”? Woe to the baby just being born who squalls to his father and mother, “Why have you produced me? Can't you do anything right at all?” The L-rd the Holy One of Israel, Israels creator says: What right have you to question what I do? Who are you to command me concerning the work of my hands? I have made the earth and created man upon it. With my hands I have stretched out the heavens and commanded all the vast myriads of stars”.
   
   And yes, G-d speaks of His regret of man in (Genesis 6:5-6) “When the L-rd G-d saw the extent of human wickedness, and that the trend and direction of men's lives was only toward evil. He was sorry He had made them. It broke His heart”. But through Noah found favor with only one man.
   
   The bottom line is from the beginning, Once satan and the other angels were told to submit under earthly man, the problem began. The Father and satan termed in disagreement, G-d saying “Man cannot live by bread alone, but is in need of His creator to guide Him” in contrast, satan says “man can, he do not need G-d interference”. Therefore, the show down begins. In Heaven G-d says, “Who will go and save them”, His son Yeshus says, “Here I'm send me”. G-d, than says okay, therefore as the gift, I give them to you as an inheritance.
   
   Yes, Yeshua Our L-rd understood about this life here on earth and also of Heaven, which is why He offers man the discernment of faith, allowing for one to not fear the things of this world but trust in the Father and His Covenant. What better proof giving is; His rising from the dead after three days. Showing that you too by His example will also rise again through obedience. Instead of following in the old way, the way of (Adam) being disobedience, the curse of everlasting death. Sacrifice is a part of life, there has never been  at any giving time one has not sacrificed, no, not in perhaps bloodshed for many but in any giving Country, from it's beginning, How many were sacrificed for the establishment of rule and yes, G-d did allow for much bloodshed but at that time they were considered the Gentiles (His Enemies) they were doing horrible things. They refused to listen to Him. They instead worshiped demons and false gods and sometimes sacrificed their own children to these idols. G-d Laws in-turn did not teach such behavior. G-d knew in the end man would need His help, which is why he asked of Heaven “Who Will Go”. Some of the Gentiles show proof of that for you see how they finally surrendered back home to their Father.
   
   Our L-rd Yeshua knows that man will hear but forget, by seeing, often remembers but the action of doing brings understanding.
   
   Shalom

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