Do you believe non-religious people, who lead a good life, are still going to hell?
One of my biggest frustrations with religion is the idea that, how you live your life is of no consequence if you do not accept god. For example, John Smith is a good christian man who helps people, obeys the law and cares for his family. Meanwhile, John Doe also helps people, obeys the law and cares for his family, but because he isn't christian, he is going to hell. If John Doe dies and discovers that there is a god, wouldn't god accept him anyway because he was a good person in life? God can't be as good as everyone says if religious affiliation is the only criteria for getting into heaven.
Also Cain's afferring was not accepted and Able's was. The good deeds must be to the glory of God, not to yourself. It may sound wrong but your deeds must have purpose, and be directed to God. It's His way, not ours, don't blame the messenger.
As a Christian, I understand your frustration. What I have learned to understand through the years is that it is not through works that we are saved. It isn't about how good we are. Not that good works aren't important, becuase they are. Jesus didn't die based on our good works. There is nothing we can do apart from Jesus to save ourselves or shall I say earn our salvation. We are ALL sinners. Noone can claim to be better than the next. Christ, the son of God, died on the cross for all our sins combined and not for our good works, but if we cheapen his death by deliberately continuing to sin (believing that we are saved by just claiming to believe) then his death on our behalf was done in vain. I still grapple with some aspects of my Christian faith but I firmly believe that Jesus is the son of God and I believe that through him, we will have eternal life in heaven. God has given us all free will so that in my opinion makes him good. He doesn't force us to kneel before the cross, he gives us all that choice. I believe that there are parts of our faith that will never make complete sense, but that is where faith comes in.
to Catherine Kane- if we continue to sin after accepting Jesus as saviour, and not repent we are mocking His sacrifice. "I do not frustrate the Grace of God, for if righteousness come by the law then Christ died IN VAIN." Gal.2:21
I find it interesting that Jesus claimed divinity in that he was God, yet in Matthew 27:45-46 we see he is not. Further - god created the rules to this whole game and therefor he can change them.....he could say jump on one foot for 3 hours saves you
jlcustompc, Jesus was man and divine. He testified of God's Truth as a man for our sake. Jesus is in the image of God. Jesus' divine person speaks as God to man; creating duelist. Yes, God can change the rules at any moment, but what's His Promises?
wilmiers77 -- I believe if I follow a rainbow I will find a leprechaun and his pot of gold. Now prove me wrong......it's the same concept as your "divine book and it's god/jesus". Atheist don't believe because unicorns are not real either.
jlcustompc, atheist only believe what they can sense or prove while hypotheis' and theories are coming into reality as a principle all the time. This would make atheist always behind the times. God's Holy Spirit tells of things to come.
wilmiers77, LOL god holy spirit? Prove it. Behind the times lol lol lol if the bible and god were a well of future knowledge then why are we just now modern? lol wealth of knowledge from the bible and god lol lol lol holy spirit pffft
See here is the thing if I say I believe in unicorns that I believe that my faith in them gives me insight into the world only one can know by believing in unicorns. You do not have to provide evidence as to why you do not believe.
A real world scenario. There are people living all over the world that are never introduced to the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit due to circumstances far beyond their control. Would God condemn His children because of the geography he created them in?
READ II Kgs17:29-41! Matt 24:14 "And THIS GOSPEL of the kingdom shall be preached in ALL the world for a witness unto ALL nations; & then shall the end come." Technology is doing just that! Heb 10:26! K&T:"I AM" same as JEHOVAH:IS,WAS&
Ivan these foreign gods symbolize his enemies satan and his demons, yes you would be hurt too, so that scripture was a warning to what could happen, if he walk away from them as their protector, satan would attack them for worshipping Jehovah.
Why does ur NWT say "...gave him the name that is above every other name,+ 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend.."(Phil2:9-10)? Why did JEHOVAH give HIM a NAME "ABOVE EVERY NAME" if not GOD when HE said "I AM & there's NO OTHER
I have preached @ AA & prisons so I guess I'm an inmate too? U are SICK! ALWAYS trying to DEFRAUD truth as Scribes & Pharisees! JESUS "hung out" w/sinners too but I guess that's BENEATH *you*? SICK! Don't know JESUS & don't care!
My life and my future is not based on Norine she is all about her as she says care about know one as stated today. True ! She wants to be heard but don't practice what she rants about. I am talking to you ! Why are you throwing your future life
Your "life & future" is not based on HIS WORD either IF you DON'T BELIEVE HE WILL DO WHAT HE SAYS HE WILL DO & that is "lead & guide us into ALL truth" (Jn14:26)! That leaves you just like him; an UNBELIEVER!
You keep using the KJ as though Jesus talked KJ ,No he talked Hebrew or Greek. KJ English is not even our spoken English of today. But you condemn what you yourself are limited in . You don't know Hebrew or Greek so you can not judge .
You don't know HOLY SPIRIT (aka JESUS) who made ALL men understand SAME LANGUAGE in Acts 2:8! What did they do BEFORE "Bible?" They were "WITH ONE ACCORD" - Why? U "IGNORANT" - ""FOOL!" That "cult" has u thinking "intelligence"(hah=dung)rules!
Why some dogmatic Christians devalue intelligence is CRAZY! Why would God give us a brain? Why not just create a bunch of mindless followers from stones as Jesus suggested? Bible is not your friend when you can't discern man from God within.
Because THE CREATOR doesn't need *your* help! Acts 17:25 "Neither is worshiped with man's hands (nor brain;ICor1:25;3:19), AS THOUGH HE NEEDED ANY THING, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, & ALL things." Does this answer your Q?
No. You keep quoting from that book that tells you that you don't need a brain - and yet, I'm pretty sure you know that God specifically created us with them for good reasons. It certainly wasn't for ancient pagans to enslave us indefinitely.
GOD created brain to "choose" HIM afterward HE'S in control vs *your* brain! The brain is man's hardest TEST ("Humble yourself")! Why Peter sunk; he used "brain!" It's BY FAITH we labor to "REST" in HIS WORD (aka PROMISES)! I pray!
Jesus didn't cause Peter to walk on water - it was thru his own 'christos within belief' thru watching Jesus; and then he sunk bcuz his attention diverted to the raging sea. He became afraid & lost his 'belief'. Jesus was just his teacher, showin
AMEN! "Became afraid"=USED BRAIN! There's NO FEAR when you BELIEVE what GOD SAID! We DO have SAME POWER as Christ "IF" we ONLY BELIEVE! How do you think I use HIS AUTHORITY given by BELIEVING to heal, lay hands,ANYTHING? "BELIEF" not "research"
Things does clear up only to a good shadowy view, but to be saved one must accept God's salvation thru Jesus. Then and only then shall one see that Jesus is the Truth and the Life giving a perfect view. Not by works, but by grace are we saved.
K&T: This is ALL SPIRITUAL! If u DON'T BELIEVE HE will DO WHAT HE SAID "Who's the FOOL?" NWT;Jn14:26 "But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father, will send IN MY NAME, that one (lil "o") will teach you ALL thgs & bring back to your min
So our test may never be what we think it is , it could very well be how we treat our brother or sister, it not knowledge of what we know but how we apply it is our tests. So we are to be kind and loving to each other .
You are as UNSPIRITUAL as Ivan! That man has "brainwashed" you from the POWER of JEHOVAH (aka HOLY SPIRIT)! How are u going to be "born again" (Jn3:7) to enter HIS kingdom when that man has LIED to u? TRUTH is being "nice" (aka LOVE)!
Firstly, the good life lived that your are referring is determined relative to the norms of the present society, but God requires a perfection, a perfect live. We live in a fallen world, and all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. There is no perfect human presently in this world.
So, Jesus, the Son of God, who is the only person who has lived a perfect life because he was in the perfect will of God at all times. Therefore, You in the Spirit of Jesus is saved from hell.
I am sorry, but living a religious life won't save you from hell, only accepting Jesus as the center of your heart. A group of religious people is only a vehicle to hell including your "good christian man" if he hasn't accepted Jesus, allowing Jesus to pay his sin debt.
Firstly, the good life lived that your are referring is determined relative to the norms of the present society, but God requires a perfection, a perfect live. We live in a fallen world, and all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
Yep! But, since you mentioned hell, to receive eternal life you must be born again; let the Spirit, Life, of Jesus master your life. We all go thru some hell. The Eternal Lake of Fire is for those who reject the Spirit of Jesus who has God's Spirit.
Wilmiers77, you seem very sure about eternal torment for those who don't believe what you do. How can you be so sure? Just because the Bible says so? Or have you really sought God on the matter and he has confirmed it to you?
And if the heart is full of virtue the kingdom of heaven is granted. As Jesus intended - be as I am, walk as I do. Don't believe in Jesus like a puppet. Be as virtuous as he is. That was his intent. Be the experience that is Jesus.
Jewels, not "Self" full of virtue and integrity, but rather the Spirit, Life of Jesus taking your "Self" place. One must deny self and accept the Son of God to receive eternal life. "Lord,I did many goods works like you; I don't know you said Lord."
Don't deny, embrace. We are whole and so nothing is to be denied. Awareness brings the ability to be aware of the Self yet not be dragged into the external pulls. There is little self, little ego, and there is the real Self, capital S.
Under your beliefs it is, but they are beliefs and not experiences. But it's clear you don't understand what the Self is (capital S.) It has naught to do with the little ego. To place this state of being into a satanic context is misguided.
Jewels, eternal salvation is not a partnership. It's Jesus presenting you perfect after you have denied self and accepted Christ Jesus. Self embraces those things of God selectively for self. Sorry, that won't ever change.
If faith in god is confirmation of god, then wouldn't faith in something else be a similar confirmation? What makes your faith/god more legitimate than someone else's? Only your faith in self tells you that yours is right.
You misunderstand the meaning of Self (capital S). Whilst you continue to define it as little ego, you just don't understand. Being lumped in with satanists is a terrible copout Claire. It's ignorance and is offensive. Climb out of that handbook.
Then help me understand, Jewels! You didn't answer this: Do you think you are an extension of His divinity or can learn to be? How can you say Christ has been inside of us all along but say it takes years of practice?
ABSOLUTELY YES. I am an extension of God as are you, how could I not be. But the practice is in revealing it underneath all the dross. That's what spiritual practices are for. That's what church is for. That's what Jesus was revealing to you.
Jewels, Jesus is God and human. Christ is Jesus; the embodiment of God. His name is Immanuel, God among us. Jewels, just get yourself out of the way of the Lord and let Him run your life, and you shall be filled with joy.
I answered your question. I'm not sure why you are saying I've coped out Claire? I have kept the same stance throughout these discussions. You are not prepared to step outside of your beliefs. That's not my problem. Have experiences, not beliefs.
Sister Claire, I am in agreement with you. When I say Jesus is in us all I mean the potential of Jesus. "they don't know Him; they can't see Him, but you know Him." For God is every where and His handycraft is shown in all things.
U see K&T! U have "drunk the cool aid" of a "man" (aka "cult"/RELIGION) rather than believing what WORD SAYS! I told u, GOD (aka HS) can "see" thru ANY "book" Bible included where contradictions by "man" have been "added/deleted!" The POWER!
I don't think there is actually a hell full of flames and Satan standing there with his pitchfork. It's a nice idea if you can imagine some of the really bad people ending up there, especially those who don't get their comeuppance on Earth.
I like the idea someone had that after death, people have to live through the experiences and emotions of the people they've affected. It was in a short story. Hitler's soul had to go through the experience of every single person he had tortured and destroyed - the ultimate poetic justice. If you made people happy, you'd have a kind of heaven instead. Instant Karma.
As I've never been a fully paid-up member of a religious institution, I would be assumed to be heading for Hell by those who are, but I can't believe any God worthy of the name would do such a thing. I've known plenty of fully-paid up members of churches who are total hypocrites. I recall in the New Testament somewhere Jesus says that however you treat your fellow man, that's the way you are treating HIM. He doesn't say anything about paying your church subscription fees.
Surely you can't believe everyone who isn't a Christian will go to Hell? All the Buddhists, Hindus? Surely if you believe in God, they are just as much the children of God.
No, all Christians are not going to Heaven, only those who has repented and accepted Jesus into their heart and allow Jesus to control their lives. All born again Christians who hold the FAITH shall go to Heaven. God loves everyone. BUT...THAT'S IT.
Wilmiers, thanks for commenting. However, I prefer the word of Jesus himself to the dogma of the church. And I DO believe what you do is more important than what you say or claim to believe. Every human is made in God's image according to Christ.
Bolero, you must know how to "DO" what's right, and that leads one back to my comment. Builders who ignore the cornerstone, Jesus, labors in vain. I always pray on what is right firstly regardless of the time needed.
We'll agree to disagree. I regard myself as a Christian, though you probably wouldn't. The church is tribal; it creates a "them and us". I don't feel that way. I respect your right to believe I'm going to hell.
Bolero,I repeat "God APPEARS to say.. conjecture. You ask if dung was in the bibe. Yes,46 times! God spoke thru Paul; Paul wouldn't say dung if God valued otherwise. Would you tell God to count me a murdererer if I were not?
I don't see that 'God appears to' at all. I did not ask if the word dung was in the Bible, I asked if God says anywhere that good deeds are dung. I realize logic and religion don't mix, I just like to understand what makes people tick. Namaste.
Yes, born again Christians who love Jesus and live in His Will and love others, will go home to heaven with Him...and those who turn and repent of sins, no matter what "religion" they come from...if they turn to Jesus & love Him..He will live in
Borsia, Bolero, You have hope. During the Millennium, all those who hasn't heard about their Savior Jesus will be given a chance. If they acknowledge Jesus as the Truth of their goodness than they shall receive Eternal Life. THAT'S IT FOLKS!
Ivan to conclude, this is their contract ,Ex 19:8 After that all the people answered unanimously: “All that Jehovah has spoken, we are willing to do.” Moses immediately took the people’s response to Jehovah.
OLD TESTAMENT LAWS were FULFILLED when JESUS came! Salvation is available to ALL because of CHRIST! Why discuss "history?" We need to discuss GRACE! ANYONE "under the LAW" are children coming UNTO Christ! GROW UP!
You are starting off on a misconception about non-religious people. If one is atheist then there is no hell, or heaven for that matter, so in the end everyone will fall into the same fate of returning to the elements from which we came. If you refer to people who believe in different gods then you have a bit more of a quadray given that there is absolutely no evidence that any one god is superior or truer than any other, leaving one to wonder which god/s need be impressed.
Certainly in my life the most moral people I've known are almost all atheists. It is better to be among those who do the right things simply because they are right, rather than from fear of some sort of judgment in an afterlife.
Then there should be no talks of heaven or hell. When it comes down to it the majority of religions use threats to gain followers. "If you don't believe you will burn forever" Sounds like living for a reward to avoid a punishment to me.
Peeples, I joined my Hare Krishna friends because we do not believe that if you do not believe Krishna is God you will burn in hell forever. This eternal torture idea is what drove me aways from other traditions. Love all living beings is the "word"
Darrell Roberts, religions are not bad themselves, only problem is that people assume,"Go straight ", written in book as simply to tread the path in a direct line and not as " to lead a decent life". Am I wrong ?
Micheal remember the crime that Jesus talk to as they hang on the stake. Jesus knew was not educated about the truth and pure worship. But Jesus reconized his heart condition and said !Lu 23:43And he said to him: “
YES! GOD"have mercy on whom HE pleases"(Rm9:15) but when TRUTH is brought to 1 & they don't BELIEVE; there is no mercy (Heb10:26)! JESUS was TRUTH in Lk! "For if we sin willfully after ye have received the knowledge of the TRUTH..no more sacrifi
Norine our website is open to the public we go to your houses with Good News of Jesus Administration, he is our anoited King picked by Jehovah. And the preaching work is coming to an end. GO see the work we do all over the world over 8 million
"Over 8 million" lost souls believing Jesus is NOT GOD when Scripture says there is ONE SPIRIT! If GOD says ONE GOD/ONE SPIRIT & Jesus "sitting on throne" where is GOD? "Picked by Jehovah?" Why does ITim3:15-16say "GOD manifested HIMSELF in fles
Ivan my last words to you , The Father created life, in Angel and man, precious is life he could replace everyone including you, but jelouse satan wants to take your rights away as others. What God makes he owns its his to do as pleases , so stop
Again, those are your beliefs. And god didnt create anything, stardust, water and electricity did. And no, he cant replace me anymore than he can replace you. The world isnt the way it is because it lacks god, its the way it is because of god. G'nite
Ivan you have said nothing to convence me it's the right way to think ! Instead you have more convence me I have the right choice. All your answers come to a dead end as you admit. This is possible if you belive it so it can be.
No its time I completly ignore you for good. I try to be tolerent of your nasty words and actions as you hide behind. The bible. But you are just out of control. I will recomend a total seperation of our paths. Take care of you Acolholic problem
Is 5:20 "Woe until them that call evil good & good evil" but that's what happens when 1 didn't WAIT for HELP (Discernment of spirits) from the HOLY SPIRIT whom that "man" have u believing HE doesn't "lead & guide!" SAD! "Alcohol?" Acts 2:13!
Is "murdering" your IGNORANCE via education "good!" NOPE! It was to get "your will" accomplished (& not telling what else you've done & u aren't GOD)! GOD is GOD not a man & has COMPLETE CONTROL if HE WILLS! Don't get in HIS WAY jr (Rm
Ivan throwing you future life away ! You desire to live here on earth. I am sure there are some things about life you love. So why just throw in the can ,because that's exactly what satan works hard to do.he is doomed no hope. You are doing this t
You preach to yourself K&T! You believe no HOLY SPIRIT that "leads & guides us" so you will NEVER have a "connection" to HIM or be "born again" UNLESS u BELIEVE what's written in HIS WORD instead of some "man!"
"I am sure there are some things about life you love" K&T I love my family & since I believe all there is to life is right here on earth that is where I put my efforts;not in some ifs ands or maybes called god&heaven.All ive thrown away i
I remember asking a similar question of the Catholic priest who taught my Confirmation class during my school years. I asked if Muslims or Hindus or people from any religion not Catholic would go to heaven, or if it was just us who were "born into the 'right' faith." His response was simple. He said that a person born into a different faith who grows up, leads a good life, and follows his faith and his god, will certainly go to Heaven.
"But aren't they worshipping false gods?" I asked. He replied, "If there is only one God, as we are taught, then what they call God doesn't matter."
Maybe he was a foward thinking priest. I don't know. However, as an adult, non-practicing Catholic, I feel secure in his answer from all those years ago. If we lead a good life and do right by others, then I think we can go on to the next realm with confidence.
Self always refuse to accept "We are saved by grace; not by works."; All humans are imperfect. Jesus is the only one who present you perfect before God. God demands perfection. All of self works are like dung to God and Jesus says I know you not.
Please see Matthew 5 verse 34. It's too long to paste in here, but it ends "Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." Doesn't sound as if He was saying works are dung.
Bolero, the time of grace has ended at final judgement. The standard by which God shall judge is JESUS. Self works and In The Name Of Jesus works are not in the same identical spirit. Appears that God says"Don't bring your dung in my perfect heaven."
Wilmiers, with the greatest respect, where exactly in the Bible does God say that? I can't say I have read the entire Bible, but I don't remember Him ever mentioning dung. On the other hand, Jesus does tell the parable of the Talents.
I'm not a Bible thumper, so I can't speak to what it says. As human beings, I believe it is important for us to use our freewill and our ability to think for ourselves. Be good to others, and you will be fine in the next realm, whatevery that may be
Donnah, The Lord says "Don't rely on your own understanding.."; manifested examples behind this truth I have not enough space to explain. I interject one thought:no one has ever solely done all of their thinking or we would be in the stone age today
wilmiers:I don't need you to explain. I can think for myself. You clearly can't accept that some people see the world from a different perspective. I can't imagine living my life brainwashed by religious zealots. Let us agree to disagree. The end.
Donnah, I study the Word of God for myself as all should. I pray on anything or word that anyone tells me is the Word of God. I do not lean on my own understanding. The world is even to large for any one person to comprehend, not to mention God.
Lane, this is true, but lets not lose sight of "Jesus called by another name" and recog attributes of Jesus because only the spirit of Jesus can present you perfect before the Father. God demands perfection,and only Jesus is perfect. Not any of us!
anything a catholic priest says cannot be takscriptural because catholicism is not a Christian religion, they worship many things other than Christ. They commit necromancy with their worship of dead "saints" etc
I feel pretty much the same as this man. I commented later, and pretty much re-iterated what you said here. To Willmiers77 I can only say this. To you and all people who discriminate against others who believe differently, you shall also be judged
Also the word omnipresent is not a biblical word used by God or Jesus .but a human belief and doctrin of men. Jesus never said he was omnipresent, or the Heavenly Father What bible and scripture use the word exactly prove it?
Norine God created Angels before he did humans ,he does not have to speak to himself, there are Myriads of Angels. The very first made was Micheal the Archangel. Re 5:11And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne
HE doesn't have to BUT HE DID! Gen 22:16 "And by MYSELF have I sworn, saith the LORD..." You see GOD is A SPIRIT w/TRILLIONS+++ (we can't count) of "GLORIES" not just 2 or 3 as Trinity & "spin offs" believe! RELIGION KILLS! DON'T LIMIT GOD!
No Norine it does not use that pacific word humans use it to mean what they want it to say. Besides you should know that is not what it would also say in Hebrew and Greek The does not exist there either.
What kind of "god" do you worship that is not ALL KNOWING; ALL SEEING; and ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE w/HIM? No wonder you're "confused!" DON'T LIMIT "THE CREATOR" (aka GOD)! Talk to u later! Have business! Email me anytime! Blessings
Also Norine if HP came and removed your name from you written Hubs how would you feel? Well I don't think you would like it at all. So here is a man that takes the Hebrew and Greek and translate his own bias opinions and then remove the Author
Norine do you know what the name of Jesus is ! In Hebrew it means Who is like Jehovah! That's what his name means so it's no way you can erase that name You are worshipping Jesus he never said do that . Joh 4:23. What did an Angel say about
Norine use the Hebrew and Greek meaning as references then return with a valid point. This is a old phone book with missing pages and you are arguing saying my phone is wrong because the pages all there. Stop being in raged over the bible .
earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. Also at Mt 28:19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, Holy Ghost, And Jesus says he is with us! This is true we Go!
You "go" w/o the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Acts19:2) it is "you" going and not JESUS! Do JW'S even believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit? Sounds like NO! They think they can do it themselves like MOST missing "revelation" of TRUTH in HIS WORD!
The reason why there is still doubt in the world concerning ANY God or religion is that people were here long before any Gods showed up, we managed then, we manage now. Put Gods ultimatums in the picture and things get real clear real quick.
Lev 26: 27And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me;28 Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins;29 And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons..
HE being "OUR HEAVENLY FATHER" shouldn't "chastise us?" There should be no "chastisement" for disobedience? There is with our "earthly fathers" why do you think there should be a difference (Heb12:8-9)?
"HE being "OUR HEAVENLY FATHER" shouldn't "chastise us?" You think being made to eat your children is chastisement? Wow! No wonder it's so easy for you to hate. You seem to worship a god that would make you a cannibal.
Norine anyone to you that does not agree with you is lying. First you are blinded to King James errors and omissions, thats lies you believe. You keep stating the cross thats a lie , that a pagan symbol. You want to apply judgment start with you.
Ivan, let me tell u something! When Bible speaks it speaks of "Spiritual" things not physical (Allegories, metaphors, parables, illustrations)! There's no "cannibalism" in Scripture! Lev telling "You'll cause son to die "spiritually" not eat litera
NW, let me tell YOU smtng New International Virsion Bible- Lev 26: 28 then in my anger I will be hostile toward you, and I myself will punish you for your sins seven times over. 29 You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters.
Ivan you would be hurt, and you would feel they used me ,also they did not keep their contract a covenant they promised to be his people and no other. When you vow and promise you pay. They renig on many promises. And they worshiped foreign gods
Allegory of things to come (OT) n NEW TESTAMENT! Disobedient parents to GOD raise disobedient children to GOD for children live by example! Disobedient parents cause kids to suffer;hence Lev 26:27! "THE LTR (literal reading) KILLETH" (2Cor3:6)!
Ivan you are attributing wrong doing to the wrong god, satan is the god of this world , and people are reflecting this god is True ! Adam and Eve had it all and a Jelouse angel came and decieve them from their Father.
Thats your belief but its not everyones. Besides, what does that have to do with gods malevolent disposition? The 1st thing he did when he came before the people was kill 150 of them just to show he was in charge, not to mention the Jericho massacre
Ivan you sound like satans spokesman being a sore loser, yes satan has lost his battles, and he will lose the greatest, standing up for him won't change things Neither will it spare your life. HE killed Adam and Eve, and those who listen to him
Norine do you hear your self if my brain is washed then yours is dirty. That means its a good thing ! So thank you for that compliment ! Are you taking your treatments becuse you are on this attack mode again ! I pray for you.
I'm not attacking "you"(physical) K&T but your "belief" (spirit)! How can one KNOW JESUS who isn't "born again" (Jn3:7) by "WAITING" (Acts1:4) on the "POWER" (Acts1:8) of the HOLY SPIRIT? JW'S don't believe JESUS although stated in NWT (Jn14:26)!
You are not physically able true ! But you come o. Hp to fight with people about the bible.Its not good. We are blessed with life our Heavenly Father is important We want to help people understand why we love him. Not give them a reason to run from
I didn't "come on HP" Didn't know it existed! GOD SENT ME! Maybe to CORRECT u; I don't know! I just do as "commanded!" K&T that "man" has DECEIVED YOU! GOD IS "ONE" SPIRIT who changes fm "glory to glory" as we do (IICor3:18)!
Norine you are totally acting the same way. How many people have told you this and you come on and continue your negative actions here on HP. Numerous people have this experience with you but you keep at it .
Let me tell YOU 1 MORE X! I don't care about people as u do, I care about their "souls!" THIS IS AN "ALL SPIRITUAL" journey! U think about WRONG things ("carnal")! That's what happens when 1 DOESN'T BELIEVE the HOLY SPIRIT will "lead&guide!"
Ivan you can only go right or left, that's a choice you can not do both at the same time any way. So you do not speak logic. Like a car I say go left to get to the gas station and you rebel and go right where there is no station and run out of gas.
K&T, not only can we go left&right equally but thats what was intended. We have left,right,back&foward. Left being evil right being good. Without good there is no evil, so we're trapped& it all started in the past(back). The only way
Again Norine this question is not about me answering you, it's the question that you need to provide truth in what you say. So quit twisting a question to me. I already answered. This Question is MT.Dreamers not yours .
K&T: That "cult" has u DEFYING I Pet 3:15! "ANSWER "EVERY MAN!" Why don't u? If not, u believe man rather than GOD! Keep DEFYING! II Thess 2:3-12! Ivan: Either way - "you loose!" Why not "GO TO GOD" (aka WORD) for TRUTH?
if anyone has lost it's people like you, norine. you spend your life doing exactly what the bible says dont do...you're mean and evil and you don't mind showing it in your comments. if there is a hell, tell the devil i said hey when u get there!
you simply proved my point as expected. it's pretty obvious your 'mama' did a poor job with you. and the hell thing, don't worry you're not going there...because just like your god, it doesn't exist. lucky you!
i took it upon my smart little self. that's the difference between you and i, i'm smart and use common sense, you are not smart and believe in fantasy.the one thing we have in common is when we're dead we're dead. youll be in the ground just like me.
When a robot becomes "smarter" than the creator, what? Yes our "flesh" will be "in the ground" but what about our spirits (aka conscience to unblvrs) which u call "fantasy" that NEVER DIES? You're going to be SHOCKED!
Norine have you yet provided the original text of Hebrew and Greek translations to compare your statements to prover your comment. No ! So again you use a faulty translation to say what has been deleted. Again kJ of 1600 has over 7000 deletions.
"Spirit of Spirit, if it be your will, give me over to immortal birth so that I may be born again - and the sacred spirit may breathe in me." A prayer to Mithras, a 'savior' worshipped by Romans whose message was meshed with Jesus to unify.
For the killionzeth time I ask, DOES GOD NEED *YOUR* help? Read Acts 17:25 AGAIN! HE doesn't NEED *your* brain or ANYTHING else! U & *your* research is "foolishness to GOD" (Is55:8) especially when HE told u to "WAIT" (Acts1:4) for HIS (ALON
Wow, that hit a nerve, huh? Its a pretty recognizable prayer, isn't it Norine? It is the reason why your bible was written the way it was - so that you would not search beyond it or use your brain - cuz, LOOK what you might discover...
What BOSS would want *you* to take over *his* company! Stop being IGNORANT! We're talking GOD! "Humble" yourself CAT! You're tripping! I've got "Connection Line" now! You worry about "book!" HE "discovers" more than what's in "book!"
No it was written that way so man can learn who's in charge! Man needs to "Let go & Let GOD" or stop using their worst enemy (the brain) & allow HOLY SPIRIT do what HE SAID HE would do("lead&guide)! If u don't BELIEVE; NOT CHRIST! REST(H
slave owners told their slaves the same thing; don't think and don't use your brain. the similarities between what you say about how to be 'spiritual' and what the slave owners said about how to be a good slave are the same.
But slaves had/have something slave owners couldn't take away; the Holy Spirit! We believed (& still do) "the last will be first & the first last" while u all struggle to get to the top! He "leads & guides" MOST of us! Join us! Azusa
IVAN: "For ye see your calling, brethren, how that NOT MANY wise men after the flesh, NOT MANY might, NOT MAY noble, are CALLED; But GOD hath chosen the foolish thgs of the world to confound the wise & GOD hath chose the weak thgs of the world..
Its sad & scary that Christians believe their brain is irrelevant. Its called brainwashing. Mithras: "Spirit of Spirit, if it be your will, give me over to immortal birth so that I may be born again - and the sacred spirit may breathe in me."
Sure "it's sad" to those who think they are smarter than GOD but *HE* SAID *HE* would "lead &guide us into *ALL* TRUTH" & either u BELIEVE or not! As u invented robot, u want him to rely on u; if he acquired mind of own; u would reprgrm or de
You don't think that God might be utilizing his Spirit to reveal these things to MANY Christians NOW that they can see it & realize the lies to be SET FREE as was Jesus' original intent? Where did that prayer come from, Norine? WHY is it familiar
U "FOOL!" Can't u (as K&T) see them in Acts 2:8 understanding SAME lang fm other countries? Why doesn't HE still have POWER to "reveal" additions & r deletions made by man? Is HE now POWERLESS? Is HE not "GOD?" Does HE need *your* help (Acts1
HE didn't write that brainwashing book you keep referring to. There is one Spirit, as you know, and we are all expressions of it - most of us unknowingly. This is what Jesus taught, the KoG is WITHIN us ALL - no pagan 'deliverance' required. FREE!
Ivan: Sure isn't a LIE! Look @ u! MF: I don't care who wrote it "IT WAS INSPIRED BY GOD" & It does what It PROMISES!"Deliverance' required or not, show "GRATITUDE" toward HIM for DYING!Do as HE "commands" to reap benefits & won't matter if
Stop turning into such a biotch when you can't think of a real comeback, N. Look at YOU! If The Bible was inspired by God, then he must have also been the same inspiration for the Prayer of Mithras since its an identical spiritual belief system...
I explain details in my hub, this is the place we always get stuck bcuz you refuse to read it so you know what I'm talking about. J IS GOD who taught pagan people that they did not need pagan rituals for salvation: NOT that he would die for sins.
I don't care who did WHAT; JESUS DIED & I'm succeeding IN CHRIST & NOTHING can make me doubt *HIM,* not a book, not who did what but HOW HE FULFILLS HIS PROMISES in the book! Lies maybe scattered w/in, but *HE* "reveals" as HE PROMISED! I've
Read my HUB "The FIRST & LAST Commandments!" Start showing some LOVE for HIM by "Humbling yourself" & obeying HIS commandments! You ever heard the song "I surrender a *ALL?* You need to "Let Go & Let GOD!" That "brain" is going to KILL
J did die, yes. But WHERE did the prayer of Mithras HEAVILY worshipped by Romans (along with the Imperical Cult) come from? WHY is there no 'sinner prayer' written down - yet Jews got stone tablets TWICE? J's real message is SO MUCH MORE powerful.
For the KILLZIONTH TIME, "Who cares?" They DID NOT & CAN NOT change HIS basic MESSAGE; "CONNECT TO HIS SPIRIT" for "GUIDANCE!" I'm living "proof!" GOD wouldn't allow HIS MESSAGE to "change!" If 1 BELIEVES HIS PROMISES & HAVE FAITH; HE WILL
Who cares?! Its a pretty big question that U can't answer. God OBVIOUSLY allowed his message to be altered in The Bible, probably bcuz it was the only way to cause the spiritual expansion of mankind since they couldn't 'get' the real message, yet.
It's not enough rm here! I keep trying to have an intelligent conversation w/u but u DELETE! We're saying SAME THING but *u* "lead & guide" & DEFY HIM(Jn14:26)! We KNOW "tampered/w" BUT *HE* allowed so *HE*would"reveal!" Create "forum" PLEASE
No, you're not trying to have an intelligent conversation with me. If you were, you would actually READ my hub and respond AFTER. Many C-beliefs are changing, not just mine. You can barely process this Mithras prayer question much less answer it.
It doesn't matter if there "no sin" for 'salvation,' that's EXACTLY what New Covenant says Jer 31:33-34 "I will remember their (BELIEVERS) sins no more!" We're saying SAME! "No sin" for BELIEVERS! HIS Message IS NOT going to be LOST - no matter!
U "MUST" WAIT for the anointing of the HOLY SPIRIT (Acts1:4; came Acts2:2) or "be born again"(Jn3:7)to become "IN CHRIST" then your spirit is holy but you continue to drop of sins or "chg fm glory to glory" (IICor3:18) into HIS likeness! Rm3:22!
Not saying same, *I* am saying there R NO SINS that need to be forgiven. Our eternal soul is natural extention of 'Source', an umbilical cord. We're God's REAL kids JUST like J & not 'adopted'. When have you EVER made your kids 'believe in' you?!
Everytime they went AGAINST my commandments I'd whip that butt the way GOD is going to whip yours! Why would u want to go against the CREATOR "leading & guiding" u into ALL truth vs *u* "leading & guiding?"
I'm not going against the Creator. You have too much sand in eyes & ears: can't see or hear. Disciplining kids for disobedience is not the same as forcing them to 'believe in' U or something you've done for them. Only reason: control thru fear.
U go against the ENTIRE NEW COVENANT (ALL SPIRITUAL;Rm8:8) using *your* brain! U "DEFY GOD" doing HIS JOB! What 'ulterior motive' do u have for taking over HIS JOB? U've taken over 'the company!' Is there a reward fm GOD when u see HIM?
Excellent answer, Catherine. I thought I was the only one to see the fear factor. As for covenants, they're supposed to be mutual not one side forcing itself on the others with dire consequences for those who fail to comply, thats an ultimatum.
"FEAR FACTOR?" IGNORANT FOOLS! IICor3:17 "Now the Lord is that Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, THERE IS LIBERTY!" Fear of what? Catherine thinks we are still under Old Covenant from Catholic "teachings!" It's a New Day w/a NC!
No, that's what you are assuming for some strange reason, Norine. I've been Catholic, Baptist, Protestant & Pentecostal - NONE of them believe like I do; although some of their followers do. Great point, Ivan - covenants R not coercion.
Well if you've received TRUTH fm GOD, u know Paul was walking "in Christ's Stead"(IICor5:20) & spoke for JESUS! Where does Paul say we're in bondage, fear, not free, we are 'sinful', all of what you say we've been made to believe? GRACE "NOW!"
Think and see...If you're told, by covenant or otherwise, to do as you're told or go to hell, that induces fear. If you accept that ultimatum you now live in bondage to it. If you are bound you are not free. What dont you understand about it?
I guess for o/s'ers it is "fear!" "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance..." (Gal5:22-23)! Where is "FEAR?" Come on in "The Water is FINE!"
That's Y I've told you, 'Your fruits R rotten, Norine." You NEVER resemble ANY of those fruits in here. Since U hate Catholics, would U trust a message from Martin Luther King, Jr? http://tinyurl.com/MLKjrStudy He STUDIED and KNEW about Mithras.
Who's MLK,Jr="MAN!" I don't BELIEVE "any man" who thinks GOD wasn't FIRST! Now I BELIEVE "man" w/held TRUTH to make his "story" appear true! NO ONE can "figure out" w/o SUPERNATURAL HELP cuz LIES are entwined with TRUTH in Bible!
PAGAN lies R entwined with truth - the same MITHRAS, ADONIS, IMPERIAL CULT beliefs that Jesus was here to CORRECT by showing people pagan 'salvation rituals' WERE unneeded, harmful lies. We're just like him, NO 'salvation' needed. UNBOUND SOULS!
TRUE! Read my response to Lawrence's "John-The Beloved-Pt3!" FREE fm "rituals"(Acts 17:23-25)! FREE fm "The Law"(Rm3:24;28)! FREE! JESUS' MESSAGE was "GRACE" & HE "remembers our sins NO MORE" (Jer31:34;Heb8:12)! FREE! I keep asking "What "fea
No Norine, being REQUIRED to 'believe in' something under the THREAT of 'going to hell' is COERCION & definitely NOT a mutual covenant of free will. Covenant with Abraham was MUTUAL. Why is a 'belief' now required? 1 reason: control thru fear.
How can you speak of THE FATHER OF FAITH (Abraham) & UNBELIEF in the same sentence? The man TESTED by GOD to "kill his son?" That didn't take BELIEF(aka FAITH)? One has to BELIEVE to have FAITH in ANYTHING! Disciples like JESUS(KoG) before cros
As a non-Christian brought up "Christian" (being brought up that way made me non-Christian), this Heaven-Hell, Righteous-Sinner, Good-Evil notion frustrates me too.
I'm a Deist. Deists do believe in a Supreme, a God, if you will, but we also believe that our Supreme created everything----including, in what we call, the Evil heart. The Supreme itself saw that there was darkness so it gave us Light so that we can know the difference. The Heaven-Hell dicotomy is a Christian one. Deists believe we all create our own Heavens and Hells, Righteousness-Sinnfulness, Goodness-Evilness.
When he dies, good or bad, the Deist simply returns where he had come----from and to nothing. It is much like the cycle of life: from ashes to ashes, from dust to dust.
From my college philo class I was taught that the Deist is someone who believes that God created all, laid the rules for us to follow or die, and disappeared for all time. Is this true in your belief system?
Huge shock wilmiers. We're all going to DIE whether we follow the rules or not! And, more importantly I think you can SEE that for those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who do NOT believe, no proof is possible or acceptable.
TRUE! Based on telekinesis (No comparison to GOD), which is more powerful; your strength; or your "mind's" strength? It's time we move past "knowledge" ("spiritual" immaturity) & into the POWER we have inside by BELIEVING; who "exceeds" telekine
1.Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a la
Thank you wilmiers77, but that didn't answer my question. Jesus didn't write Revelation. I asked where JESUS said it, not one of the other writers. I appreciate your attempt to give me an answer anyway.
I believe you mean well wilmiers, but I can't believe that a God of love would actually go for burning good people in hell just because they're not Christians. This'd be a god who was obsessed with owning people as opposed to the loving God of the NT
Wilmiers, I read that whole chapter 18, and Matthew goes off the deep end and rambles all over the place. I'm not convinced that it is a true account of anything Jesus said. But I did ask, so thank you.
Matthew 18.9 is misinterpreted by Christians. It refers to the third eye, the center. Plucking out what one does not like is referring to transformation. If there is a part of you that is out of integrity - pluck it out, or stay in hell.
It means if what you see within yourself is out of integrity pluck it out. It does not mean the eye itself, but what you see within yourself. Cleanse yourself of the dross. At least enter with your central eye open, than it closed - ie ignorant.
There is distinct reference to third eye in Matthew 6:22. Your eyes, ears nostrils, mouth are for the senses which is an externalization to the ego. You studied theology, you must know this. But have the experience & you will see. Jesus did.
If you practiced what he was talking about you'd understand. See you can learn knowledge via a book and think you know, or you can practice what is taught and have the experience. That's true knowledge. Jesus had true knowledge, he wants you to also.
OKay, it's clear you don't know the experience of Self (capital S.) I do know what it is like which is why I'm persistently passing this to you. You don't want to receive it. I think that was the dilemma of Jesus too from memory.
i have never seen so many foolish answers, most of you giving scripture need to learn to read and understand the bible because your answers do not answer or even apply to the question. MizB Most of them do not understand hell is a mistranslation
Yeah I think some English bibles translate three different words from Hebrew and Greek into one English word: hell. The problem is that these words had different cultural connotations yet the English find it within their right to put it in one word
Mr. Wilmiers, please! No one likes a thumper...mostly, because what you thump against is not the ORIGINAL bible (which has been wrongly and widely interpreted in hundreds of versions and languages, and is known to have lost entire books over time).
Again, GOD operates in "GLORIES" as we do(IICor3:18)! The "US" HE was referring to was "ALL" of HIS "GLORIES" including "the jackass" (Num22:1-35)! Funny but TRUE! And "the whale" too! HE "manifests" HIMSELF into ANYTHING for HIS WILL to be accomp
Ivan Notice! The Complete Jewish Bible disagree with the Latin Vulgate, the KJV and the NKJV by making no mention of hell whatsoever in their Bibles. If the Jews, who are experts in their own Hebrew language, do not include hell in their Bibles, then
If GOD has "ONE MIND" and HE doesn't change, what did HE do to unbelievers in OT? KILLED! What makes you think HE'S changed because of what man has said? Why don't you STUDY the "Wrath of GOD" (Eph5;Col3; Rm12; Rev19)?
K&T says: "Ivan you are mislead that statment about eating children is lying" Sorry, but no, it is not a lie or misinterpretation. Its KJV. In other texts it says god will make us fight wild beasts over our children to see who gets to eat them.
GOD KILLS "spirit" when disobedient (Eph 2:1)! One can be walking around "physically" TODAY but DEAD to GOD via sin! That's why I say Scripture says not everyone "married" is "MARRIED" in the Sight of GOD (ICor7:39 "ONLY in the LORD")!
Next Ivan think if you save a person's life, feed them,house them ,protect them from their enemies, take their families in and feed and house them ,give them your money. And all the sudden they turn on you as enemy in your house eating your food .
We're not talking about me, we're talking about god, who supposedly could make the world perfect right now if he wanted to. So why doesn't he? Besides, if someone did that to me inspite of my helping them I still wouldn't make them eat their kids.
Why are you campaigning for evil calling your creator of life evil, there has nothing been good coming from your hand and mouth, yet you use what God gives you to live and function. It's obvious who you follow. Think again .
First off god has given me nothing as my parents gave me life& old age will give me death. The scripture backed comments I made show who the evil one really is and its not me. You can refuse to acknowledge it if you must but it doesn't change it.
"I do what I want" There are LAWS on earth as it is for heaven! When is the last time you REALLY did "what u want" on earth? U like money rt? When is the last time u robbed a bank? U know the LAW; u haven't! SAME WITH GOD - "LAWS!"
Norine satan knows Jesus , you know Jesus , satan accuses Jesus and angelic brothers. , you accuse christains with Gods word , satan use God s words and repeated them to Jesus for his purpose you come on and repeat verse for your purpose of argument
Ivan you and satan are in the same car going the opposite of no return.you have hope. He judge and lost. So now you are throwing your life away to prove he is right. No he created the lie. And you listen .
And u "throw your life away" LISTENING to that "man" who told you JESUS was a reincarnated angel (Michael) when Scripture tells us HE is "ABOVE ANGELS" (Heb1:4;NWT)! Correct me if I'm WRONG! Otherwise, "propaganda!"
Norine your last post is a opinion and reply to me. People are waiting for your proof to the claim of the subject. Please give us this meaning in Jesus language ,Hebrew and Greek is right. Furnish that real meaning of hell and you speak truth
WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO STOP DEFYING SCRIPTURE AND "ANSWER" (I Pet 3:15)? QUESTION "AGAIN:" What is GOD going to do w/us after HE judges & finds us "guilty?" Is that something that "the cult" told u "not to answer" (secretive) DEFYING Scripture?
jesus supposedly spoke Aramaic. therefore any translation of what he may have said is automatically corrupt. then again, the whole thing is a fraud so it doesn't really matter what was said or what was meant. 21st century people should know this.
Tod you certainly are confused and base judgment on the subject in confusion . Jesus is not God, the Heavenly Father. So what language you mention does not matter because the Father knows all. Lets stop here. Have a nice day.
you're the one who previously said jesus was god on earth. so it would seem you're not sure about what you actually believe. get it together then try again. consistency is very important. without it you make yourself sound foolish.
Norine you keep using that translation as the only available bible. A good doctor or Lawyer uses books of knowledge not one book to be competent.They are even speak different Languages, latin, you are beating people with one bible not our Languag
i was talking about you, norine, you're the one who previously said jesus was god on earth, not K&T. then again you say such weird stuff sometimes that you dont even know you've contradicted yourself. get consistent so you dont sound like a fool.
K&T: U can't talk about JESUS in any language; u (like Ivan) don't KNOW HIM! DEMONS! Come Out! JW "cult" believe HIS POWER (HOLY SPIRIT) is not able to "lead & guide into "ALL" truth!" Ivan: U BOTH are CONFUSED as usual! Blind leading the B
You need to pry the TREE TRUNK out of your eye so you can see to help anyone else, Norine. You have NO BUSINESS 'rebuking' K&T (whose beliefs I'm not wild about, either) nor anyone else. Peeps who don't believe EXACTLY as you do are NOT possessed
If *u* or ANYONE else thk telling souls to WAIT for HELP fm HOLY SPIRIT "BEFORE" taking off like a man dragging a cow by his tail=PLANK in eye; I HAVE! Lev19:17 "REBUKE!" Yes POSSESSED w/THEIR thinking vs HOLY SPIRIT bcuz they didn't WAIT(Jn4:23-24)!
If *u* or ANYONE else think repeating GOD'S WORD=TREE TRUNK in eye; CONFUSED! All GOD ask is "WAIT"(Acts1:4) for "HELP"(Jn14:26) fm HOLY SPIRIT & STOP using *ur* brain(Prov3:5) or "propaganda!" GOD wants GLORY but *u*try to take! HUMBLE YOURSELF
Why don't you take your own advice and WAIT for his HELP - and HUMBLE YOURSELF? You're WRONG when you insist that ONLY YOU are led by Spirit. On top of that, you judge ignorantly without knowledge. You're nothing but a banging gong! 1 Cor 13:1
I'm a born again Christian and I've run into this grey area myself. as humans we can't possible know the answer, only God himself can look at the hearts and lives of each individual person and judge them accordingly. God judges the heart for purity, humility, and other like factors. There's no way he'll just make a decision that all good people who never knew him should go to heaven or hell. But I will offer this, in John 14;6 Jesus says "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes unto the Father, but by me." The father is in heaven. In order to go to heaven, one must be living in the light of God. Otherwise, they're still living in darkness (not knowing God). Living in darkness leaves one susceptible to sin and although everyone sins, only those who pray for forgiveness are forgiven. People can pray for the forgiveness of other people as well. There was a murderer who died on a cross with Jesus. His life close to death, he opened his heart to Jesus and repented. The murderer did not necessarily love Jesus, but Jesus knew that in his heart, he was genuinely remorseful for his sins and so he's in in heaven with him now.
Point: I want to say that with out the love of Jesus in you, you go to hell regardless of how good you were on earth, but then again, God judges the heart and looks back on the things you did while living. The only one that can make that decision is the creator himself.
ck-what it actually says is "Rev 20: 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire" LOF is where they go not hell. the end
You "hung up" on wrong thing GOD is JEHOVAH, I AM, JESUS, the Prince of Peace,++++++++++++ You need Holy Spirit to "reveal" ALL OF HIS "GLORIES" from that SELF SAME SPIRIT=GOD! We NOW under NC in which ur NWT says "at the name of JESUS"(Phil2:10)!
keep on praying for yourself because you need it. i know a voodoo priestess who says for $5.00 she'l put a curse on you. i told her no thanks you were already cursed so i saved the $5.00. maybe i'll put it in the collection plate sunday.
Keep on using that "INTELLIGENCE" & see how far it gets you fulfilling Scripture (IITim3:2)! Voodoo will NOT stop the WORD of the ALL POWERFUL CREATOR! Keep your $5, maybe you can by a drink to get away from that "guilty conscience" for a momen
i'll keep using my intelligence even if you dont & i can get free wine in church. so i'll keep my $5. scripture, its just fantasy and just so you know, zealousness is a mental disorder. go see a psychiatrist. i'll even send you the $5 if it'll he
And is why you'll keep running around sounding like a confused "FOOL" for what robot has more knowledge than it's creator? Thx but you'll need that $5 for church wine is non-alcoholic! Enjoy - demon! When GOD speaks; demons come! HATE TRUTH?
so now you're god? well, its not like i didn't expect that from you sooner or later. i'm pretty sure jesus is mad at you for saying that but i'm not. like all zealots you cant help yourself & i'd rather be confused then serve a false god like you
You know, norine, you sound a lot like a demon. you say things that would get you kicked out of most churches,not that you care. anyway, you come off with this chosen few thing & the next thing you know you sound like Reagan from the exorcist...e
If churches could PROVE w/WORD no need to "kick out" but can't! "Chosen few" (ICor1:26-27;Matt 7:14)! Foolishness to u (I Cor 2:14-15)! II Cor 4:3-5! Should have "WAITED" (Acts 1:4)! No need to be angry! STUDY (2Tim2:15) w/no HELP=DEAD RELIGION!
In the Scriptures, however, “Gehenna” (“hell,” AV)—all incredible myths to the contrary notwithstanding—does not speak of “the place of the eternal torments of the damned.” Instead, it refers to an actual place on earth, namely, the valley (or “ravin
Hell is real; The Eternal Lake of Fire. Yes, Gehenna(?) was used as a reference to God's Hell, a manifestation of God's hell. It was a garbage dump that continually burned located on the outside of town.
That's ridiculous. Man does NOT = Science. If U knew how brilliant & CREATIVE we really R in our fully-realized, god-like state of 'being'; U would know that WE humans thru our SAME christos Christ possessed - created ALL religions & sciences
PRECISELY! "MAN" created ALL RELIGIONS & SCIENCE! What "FOOL" would take that mess over THE SPIRIT (aka GOD)? GOD doesn't need *your* *man's* or *science's* help and for *you* to THINK HE DOES *denies* HIS POWER (Acts 17:23-25)!
FOOLS like U who insist on ignoring the science that PROVES God's VERY existence; WHILE insisting Bible's life-sucking & destructive pagan 'salvation' smears that Jesus came to CORRECT in peoples minds - based on MULTI & PREVIOUS Roman 'gods'
If you are *IGNORANT* enough to believe "man's* educated guesses (Science) over GOD, who's the FOOL? You don't know what JESUS' Message was! "GRACE!" Do you know what that is? If not, "STUDY!" "GRACE" gives SAME MSG u talk; "WE ARE gods!"
The problem is how you define "good." A person could do all of these "good things" and be full of hate. He may be doing these "good" things for the sake of his reputation rather than out of selflessness. Since we don't know what is going on in side the heart, watching a person be "good" isn't sufficient criteria for evaluating whether they are good. Also, it depends upon the standard. If the standard is what I think is good enough, then I become the one who determines who is good enough. If God is the standard, then just maybe the standard for "good" is what He decides. I guess the point is that this is only a frustration if you are somehow offended that God doesn't have the same standard you do. If God isn't going to set the standard, who does?
I stand with you both, Miles and wilmiers!....Jesus Christ, my God and Savior is my standard and without Him, nothing makes sense! All glory and honor be to Him, the great I AM!!! God bless you and take care, Helen
You ERROR! Why "hung up" on "translations" when GOD speaks to us DIRECTLY "leading & guiding into ALL truth?" \ You need Holy Spirit & wouldn't worry about "TRANSLATIONS!" You don't believe GOD CAN when you speak of "translations!"
Evil does not exist: only seemingly-bad things that are meant to inspire GOOD. IE., when someone is mean to you, you DESIRE them to be nice. When someone lies to you, you DESIRE truth. God is beyond all-knowing & forgiving: all-understanding.
I wish you would tell that to the Criminal Justice System who has non-evil people locked up! See how many they will release when you tell them their actions were to "inspire good!" GOD set standards - man followed! JUSTICE!
Its not that we shouldn't use tools we've come up with to maintain order. Its just that God KNOWS why people go off the deep end & completely understands. It isn't because they were born bad. Life is meant to be a calm or stormy sea - or between.
If not "born bad" why David say so (Ps51:5)? Why Jesus say so (Jn3:7)? Why Paul say so (Eph2:1)? Why 'sin' enter world thru disobedient child (Adam;Rm5:12)? Man fell from likeness of GOD (Adam) or he doesn't exist either? How get Christos back now?
I don't believe that good people of another faith are going to Hell. i believe that, since God is all-powerful, it's not beyond Him to reach out to people in different ways and according to their needs; and, since He's a God of love, I believe that He does so everyday.
I do, however, think that when the atheists get to the afterlife, they're gonna be surprised ...
Kane, "no good deed goes unrewarded." Other religions must come to Jesus even if they arrive differently than Judaism-Christian, but one must ultimately go to and thru who we call Jesus. Many ways to Jesus; one way to God. Telling All Jesus in Milliu
Catherine, I love your last statement. I think that has already happened to my late father who was an atheist. I have felt his contact twice. If only christians like wilmers go to heaven, I don't think I would be happy there.
Jewels,Moving from a humanistic view, One must accept Jesus as control of their life, than and only than His virtue helping one to receive heaven or else you only have your self righteousness view of virtue including any other humanistic standards.
hah what a philosophy you have .. no need to talk about the religions we are actually taking about the faith . if you have believe on one god then you will be confident toward the realm .. but i thing atheist are not going to have a part in heavens;
Norine notice 1Ki 8:27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded? Your scripture means he sees everthing in heaven and on earth.
Ivan ! then this further confirms that there is not a single word that means hell in the Hebrew Manuscripts of the Old Testament. People need to read and do accurate research or you will add to the problem of misleading people.
Girl, you need to stop underestimating the WRATH OF GOD! Lk 16:24 (NWT) "So he called and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me & send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water & cool my tongue for I am in anguish in BLAZING FIRE!" No
Ivan you are mislead that statment about eating children is lying, unless you are referring to Baal, he is a god.that requires those type of sacrefices, your reading material is flawed, please show your source to prove your statements.
"Ivan ! then this further confirms that there is not a single word that means hell in the Hebrew Manuscripts of the Old Testament." Thats because hell didn't exist during the time of the Old Testament. Hell is a fairly recent christian development.
Ivan show the scripture to prove statement, you already have made one big one ,KJV do not talk in your language, what verse , and another thing KJV is full of deletions and substitute words ,I really considerate it poor quality, but you are wrong.
I've already shown proof. You and NW simply chose to dismiss it. You see,as god began to lose his grip on his "servants" new fear tactics had to be devised, so it went from...OT: Israelites;direct death threats to NT: Christians;Hell.
Guys: U are IGNORANT if u THINK GOD is a LIAR! Jn14:26 says HE will "lead&guide into ALL truth" with HIS POWER (Acts1:8) which includes "translations, deletions, HIS NAME, EVERYTHING! So SPIRITUALLY; U have NO BASIS UNLESS u believe HE LIED!
Ivan you gave me my request thank you . Now we can discuss the meaning. Always read the entire setting and chapter. First scipture was that they agree as Isreal to be his people. He saved them from pharoah who enslaved oppress them.
"Always read the entire setting and chapter." Leviticus is almost entirely made up of what god will do to people who dont obey, including making them eat their children. It is what it is no matter how you try to change its meaning.
Norine you can call me anything ! Because everytime you call me a name or somebody a bad name I will think about your problem you have and hope you get better ! I am so sorry this has effected your heart and attitude toward People.
K&T: SERPENT, I'm not concerned w/people BUT "souls" that's your job! ANYONE can "see" you have been "brainwashed" by "man!" This is a SPIRITUAL journey! Ivan: GOD is the SAME but KILLS "spirit" not "flesh" when disobedient! U r alive rt(Eph2:1
Norine why does Jehovah name exist at all ? Why do you say Hallelu(jah)! In the new testment. Which means praise Jah ! Again Jesus is the Son of the most high, yes through him all prayers are accepted by Jehovah Our Father in Heaven.
Girl JEHOVAH; I AM, JESUS "SELF SAME "SPIRIT" who IS, WAS, & IS TO COME and tells us HOW he CAN operate via HIS "GLORIES!" Why Phil2:9-10 have us "bending our knees"(NWT) to another God (aka JESUS) if what you believe true (Is43:11)?
Norine you preach a message of attack , name calling , if one disagree. as long as you been here that all I have learn about you. ,that stands out .you use Gods word to attack people you really dont know them.
I don't care to "know them!" It's the "soul" (belief) that needs "CORRECTION" for there is "No respect of persons w/GOD!" Look how "nice" the serpent was in the Garden of Eden! The SAME THING is happening TODAY! TRUTH=LOVE whether 1 likes r not
Ok Ivan just let us start from the point you don't believe. What is it that you do not believe? One answer at a time and I will give you 1 answer to each statment so I can see your point please say Ok ! fair !
O.K. K&T that's fair. I'll ignore the zealot(NW) and tell you what I think. For starters I dont believe that god is what we've been led to believe. If he is he hasn't come thru on anything other than to pronounce his self appointed "godship".
Norine until you provide the truth in Hebrew and Greek and stop stalling tell me to answer your question ,you have obviously fail to prove your words ,no need to keep repeating a controlling factor of words because you can not prove the truth. Stop
Do you REALLY think "Hebrew & Greek" is ABOVE what GOD SAID? Did HE not say HE would "lead & guide us into ALL truth" (Jn14:26)? How did they understand diff languages on Day of Pentecost (Acts2:5-12)? YOU ARE IGNORANT as those in vs12-13!
Ivan people are fooled who is doing what, They think the Father is causing bad things but it is satan who hates humans and is trying to destroy us all. But he wants God the Father to do it. We are tested on things and weaknesses not what we thin
Norine King James of 1600's deleted. The Tetragrammaton that is YHWH this is Jehovah 's name.Jesus read his name out of Isaiah 61:1-2, If Jesus read it and pronouced it and respected God's personal name then who is a person who rejects it .
IF there is ONE GOD (Eph 4:4-6) & HE "doesn't share HIS GLORY with another" (Is 48:11) why are we going to "bend our knees" to JESUS (Phil2:10; NWT)? You are going to have to give in account for "leading HIS sheep astray" (Jer23:1)!
Norine we need Jesus stamp of approval to enter before Jehovah. That is why evey prayer must be in Jesus name.Without out it Jehovah does not accept your message of concerns.Especially if you know better.But all our prayers Jehovah gets. Like mail
JESUS is "THE MEDIATOR" which is our arbitrator to the SAME SPIRIT! JESUS came into sinful world (less than a father to man hence Son) but the SAME SPIRIT in the GLORY of the man JESUS CHRIST! Where is your Holy Spirit to help you "see?"
Does perish mean torment and suffering for eternity? Seems likethe people going to this "hell" have more imperishability than believers. They are tormented and suffer yet never die. Those in heaven are living a much healthier life so it's no miracle.
SirDent, with utmost respect, I sense that you strictly go by the book and accepts the words without interpretation. Do you agree that people like me decipher different meaning of those words. Are we wrong ?
Harishprasad, 2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Sirdent, I don't agree to it, rather I will seek inerptetation not one but as many as possible so as to arrive at the closest and truthful one appealing to my intellect. I have my own way of looking at religious text and I am very much firm in it.
Haishprasad, I am limited to what I can say here in comments. Only allowed to write a few words. Many of my previous comments were too long and I had to edit them. I am not playing games, I assure you.
Ivan the Heavenly Father has the ability to save any life he wishes , even if one should die he can live again. Mt 10:28And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; when God made us ,he certainly can return life.
Jesus is cool, he doesn't want you to just read the scriptures. He wants you to walk in his shoes, do as he did. That means be as Jesus is, means plenty of good karma and no judgment of other peoples beliefs.
So make sure you be as he is and not read everything and believe it like a sheep. Believing scriptures and misunderstanding, then regurgitating the misunderstanding is bad karma. Mariteslausin is right.
The common belief among religion is that if you don't accept Jesus, God, Allah, or whatever as your savior, you're going to hell automatically no matter how good of a person you are.
That's why, as an atheist, I tend to get along better with moderate Buddhists, it's the only religion I've found where it doesn't really matter if you accept the religion, what your next life is like depends on you as a person not whether or not you worshiped someone daily.
Just remember that even if a religion says something it doesn't mean that you can't make friends within that religion. There are moderate Christians and Muslims that I get along with perfectly fine seeing as they don't judge me based on whether or not I believe in their religion.
CrescentSkies, self always refuse to accept "We are saved by grace; not by works." God only accept perfection. "how good of a person..."? That's debatable because Jesus is the only one who has lived a perfect life.
MISFIT: ANSWER (IPet3:15)! How are we "gods" IF "the WORD "doesn't" come to us" (Jn10:25)? STOP picking out portions of Scripture to justify IGNORANCE! READ "ALL!" Jn10:25-30 "Ye BELIEVE NOT because ye are NOT of my sheep"(v26)! KoG here?
No, I do not believe that religious or non-religious people are going to go to hell. I am a Unitarian Universalist. That faith has roots in the Christian and Jewish traditions, but "universalist" stands for the proposition that a loving god would not condemn his/her/its creations to hell -- exactly as you intuited. If you're ever in Auburn, Maine, I invite you to come to our church, First Universalist Church of Auburn, UU -- but there are also UU churches all over the world. UUs do not all believe in the same (or any) god, but nor are we just a social or service organization. Our churches support people in their search for the sacred and their effort to build a stronger connection to what is sacred through group worship, individual spiritual practice, and service to the community.
Kane, I have been noting on one final condition of God in order to receive eternal life, not the permissive will of God which is under GRACE now. Hope this clears things. The perfect will of God shall make final judgment.
MISFIT: I KNOW there is a heaven AND hell! However, the "MOST IMPORTANT THING" is to be GUIDED by the HOLY SPIRIT & then u won't go wrong & it won't matter if there's a heaven or hell for you will be ONE with CHRIST! It's not about "FIRE IN
I understand your fustration, I had these same feelings. I went and looked at easter thought and they believe in Karma and reincarnation. I like thes two ideas because through Karma you are punished or rewarded for your actions. Combined with reincarnation, if the results are not finished in this life then in the next life you will get what you earn. I think this is fair, I think that this is just for all.
I am not one who thinks that a person who live 100 years should burn in hell forever, that seems kind of ruthless to me. Keep in mind a billion years is not a long time compared to forever.
The first thing to recognize that faith, and knowing for an absolute fact are not the same thing. According to your words only God's perfect will gives eternal life,does this mean that GOd can over rule Jesus and let in others from different faiths?
God is omnipotent and omniscience; not I. Jesus has God's Spirit Who is perfect. Persons of another faith must receive God's perfect Spirit (Jesus given another name by another faith) to receive eternal life. Many names; many faiths. Good question!
God judges from both within and "outside", this is how we get into predicaments in this life. In addition, since we have a relationship with other living entities, it is going to be more than our own virtues and integrity that we will get judged on.
I think the confusion comes from the way the qustion is being asked. The Bible says that no one is good, no not one. There is no good person on the face of the earth. We all have a big problem called sin and God gave us the answer to that problem in Jesus. God is a good judge and as such can not let sin go unpunished, but he made away to be just and merciful at the same time by Jesus taking the penalty on the cross for our sin. We deserve death for our sin, but Jesus died in our place so that we don't have to face the consequences that we deserve.
The bottom line is no one goes to hell because they don't have faith in Jesus, they go to hell for the payment of their sins, since they did not take the offer of a full payment on thier behalf.
John 3:17-18 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condmened already, because he has not belived int he name of the only Son of God.
People are allowed to make their own choices and decisions but it's satan that makes accusations about us that we should die forever. So the tests is what we make it to be,like we may know something is wrong but do our body control us more do wron
Jilani, please don't confuse the Permissive Will of God with the Perfect. Permissive Will falls under Grace period, but that ends and ony God's Perfect Will gives eternal life; least Jesus died on the cross for nothing. Jesus must present you perfect
Great rewards, Yes. I was strictly speaking of receiving eternal life. "Faith is dead without works" Not confused with "saved by grace; not works lest a man boost" in the final judgment which is totally the Son of God show as the standard for all.
Rm5:8-10 "justified by HIS blood"(v9)! Rm3:22; "Righteousness given thru FAITH in HIM" Phil 3:9; "I become righteous thru FAITH in JESUS CHRIST" II Cor 5:21 "that we may become the righteousness of GOD in HIM!" I Cor 1:29-30! Eph2:8-9!
I hope I don't offend anyone but I find the whole idea of deity-based religion somewhat ridiculous. Religion is necessary because without faith, humanity won't sustain. But worshiping a figure whose existence isn't proven is wrong and sad on so many levels. And yes, I won't even entertain the whole "going to hell" thing with a comment because it's beyond me.
I said faith is necessary. But faith in a made up entity is silly. Believe in God. But don't believe in the various deities that various religions ask us to worship. And I didn't comment on the actual question regarding "hell". What's odd in that?
Also not sure how being discourteous actually strengthens your comments. My experience is that, when folks make derogatory comments about you, it's usually because they've run out of logical things to say
Pointing out that I'm commenting by not commenting is somewhat you-dont-say?. If someone critizes a guy by saying, "Don't even get me started on your drinking habits", it isn't odd. My comment was framed like that. And sorry for being rude.
Love what you said here sharma92tushar. It really means you are honoring a false god when you are worshipping anything other than your own integral Self (capital S that is). God is within, not without. Going to hell concept is man made to control.
Jewels, self honoring Jesus won't cut it because you honor what is not an integral part of you, but is in the external world. You must know the Son of God Who is confirmed by God's Spirit of Truth proceeding from the world and within. God is omnipre
But it is an integral part of me. If it's not an integral part of you then you have some work to do on yourself. God is omnipresent and is within. Go inside yourself and you may find what you are looking for. That is what Jesus is asking of you.
MF: Control & Fear are spirits from Satan! IJn4:18 There is NO FEAR in LOVE (aka GOD)..." II Pet 3:9 "...that they all come to repentance." If HE "controls," how can they "come to repentance?" Sounds like CHOICE vs "control" to me! U LIE
No. I believe as long as you are being true to yourself, you are being true to whatever higher power you believe in; even if that higher power is yourself. However, I've seen signs that say," If you think there is no God, you'd better be right!" Also, God doesn't accept you. You have to accept him. Whatever you perceive as heaven or hell , your destiny is not based on the law of the land but on the laws of your heart. Your destiny is based on how you live by your morals, not mine. Don't forget, if you believe in judgment, it will be just you and him. No one or nothing else will matter. Do I think that the millions of people on earth that don't even know what religion or christianity is will go to hell, No.
IDONO, People who hasn't heard of Jesus and is deserving salvation (being made perfect) shall have a chance during the millenium period to hear and accept Jesus. That's during the 1000 years after the second coming of Jesus.
It seems that very few people realize that christianity is a very small percentage of overall faiths on the earth. I find it hard to believe that all on earth, except christians, will end up in hell. That seems extremely arrogant to me.
Here is the crux of the issue. The Christian Bible clearly states: John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. -- Right from "God" himself - If you do not believe = hell period!
jlcustompc, you must come to God firstly; Jesus must present you perfect before God or hell.We are in God's grace, experiencing His Permissive Will where He says come, good, keep coming. We are reward for trying, not for being perfect.Jesus is.. dito
wilmiers77 - can you double check your grammar? -- Anyway why should I come to "god" if god wants to come to me I am all for it, I have never seen anything that would let me know there is a "god" or "gods".
jlcustompc, appears that you are doing what others do on hub when running short of intelluctual response...begin to correct grammar and typos. I have just begun. God is continually extending his love to you. You must exercise ur freedom of choice.
After the second coming of Jesus for 1000 yrs they get to accept him? That's an unfair advantage to them. They get to be convinced by Jesus himself and I only get to be convinced by people who follow him. Interesting.
Idono, I am surprised to find the eastern wisdom so fully ingrained in you that it is easier to identify with you so far my own outlook in respect of religion and God is concerned. My dear friend, you have very skillfully grasped the essence in full.
Being that I've been taught that we are all created equal, how can we be so arrogant as to believe that we get to learn of salvation now, first hand, and those people have to wait a thousand years? We are not chosen or special. God loves us all equal
Well said. Personally, I will not create hell for my children if they disobey me or disbelieve in what I say. Definitely, God has more goodness in him than myself. If a book says non-believers go to hell, its authenticity should be questioned.
Rayasa, all religious teachings have subtle messages hidden behind them,concepts that appear to us as bizarre can be understood well if we ponder over them in their right perspectives. We can discuss these but argumentation is not wise at all.
Dear Harishprasad, Sorry if I am using my common sense too much, but I fail to see why non-religious people with good morals should go to hell. No arguments here - you are free to set me straight on this.
rayasa, you are such a thoughtful person that there is no question of arguments. The purpose is to understand something taking into account every possible bent of mind, that's why we are here together. When a text says," Go straight", does it mean .?
Yah .. exactly at the end of day their will be only you and Him no matter what else . so better to prepare some sort of good resource for your own self so that when you will face him he will treat you in a better way ..
Good answer, IDONO. Still, is God a Him, a Her on an It? We know there are Laws of Nature, and even Psychological Laws. The Laws of God appear to be pretty uniform. The Golden Rule applies across most major religions. Yep! No one's excluded
Norine many a religion may believe anything ,it does not mean they speak the truth. What was Jesus last words assending up in Heaven ? Mt 24:14 And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the
Acts 1 is where HE ASCENDED (v9) & HIS LAST COMMANDMENT was to "WAIT" (v4) for "HELP" Promised in Jn14:26 which is POWER (v8) for "revelation" (Gal1:12) from HIM (Jer 31:34)! What "book" does one need then? Did you "WAIT?"
Norine its clear you use his words to argue and fight with people here on HP day and night. You are doing the same thing. You come on to vex and accuse and criticize. Thats not right or normal. And you do this in the name of religion.
READ my HUB "Christians Grumbling Arguing & Judging" to see GOD SAID "JUDGE" & "CORRECT" as u would your children! It's "not right" IF u DON'T "BELIEVE" HIS WORD! I don't do ANYTHING in the name of Religion but in the NAME OF "GOD" (aka "JESU
if jesus sat at the right hand of god in heaven how can they be one and the same? &if thats true,then since lucifer sat at gods left while jesus at the right then all 3must be the same god,jesus&lucifer. a thousand views without proper perspe
There's no little Son Jesus & Big Daddy GOD as Religion would have one believe. HE is ONE SPIRIT who operates in NUMEROUS "GLORIES" SIMULTANEOUSLY! Right Hand=Righteousness not arms w/hand! GOD created good & evil for HIS WILL to be accomp
Ivan you dont believe in the Author of the bible and whats good in it. So dont quote what you dont believe in. So far you been taking satans side and using a man made name L , sorry you can not fool people with this propaganda.
That's just what I've been trying to tell you K&T="propaganda!" That JW belief have you believing JESUS is not the HOLY SPIRIT & will not "lead & guide" as HE SAID HE would! You MUST be "born again" by being filled w/HIS HOLY SPIRIT so
"GOD created good & evil for HIS WILL to be accomp" Yup, & its worked out quite well hasnt it..with the world being so screw'd up and all. So, I guess murder IS good since gods will is good and all things happening on earth is "gods will"....
Norine I am not taliking to you . Your name is not Ivan. I have nothing to say to you ,nore interested in what you are talking about. I have asked you kindly before to stop talking to me. I FEEL THE SAME.! Stop!
You can't defend that "propaganda" when Scripture tells you to: I Pet 3:15 "...be ready to ALWAYS give an answer to EVERY man that asketh you a reason for the hope that is in you..." Now, when were u filled w/the HOLY SPIRIT? if not, "propaganda!"
NW, No ones hope is being questioned but since your bible verse says you have hope that would imply that things may not be quite what you are told...but you keep up your hope, NW, as you definitely need it.
Ivan I am ready when you are post a statement you don't believe in regarding how it would effect you. I will listen and tell you how it will effect me and then we should be able to understand each other.
We're just like Jesus: "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." We're born with our original eternal soul & NEW physical-based ego for duality & soul expansion. Ego pa
No 'belief' in God is necessary. 'Good' is the only thing that God can create; and he does it THROUGH 'evil' or 'bad' situations we refer to as 'sin'. But sin has a PURPOSE to inspire GOOD - and good is our natural state of 'being like God'.
We agree! BELIEF is necessary! But belief is not as secular RELIGION defines but "obeying HIS commands" (Jn14:15)! How can one "believe" if not (I Cor 10:21)? You can't believe "part!" "Obey"LAST commandment(Acts1:4) & FAITH IN PROMISES=BELIEF!
U have a funny way of interpreting a sentence Norine, LoL! No belief in God is necessary for salvation; NOR is obedience necessary - actually it is IMPOSSIBLE for us to 'disobey' God or deviate from our soul. I bet that one throws you for a loop.
Let u tell it, salvation is not necessary cuz EVERYONE is on their way to heaven(if it exists)! Can't "deviate from our mind, will, emotions?" u have We obey laws of land but GOD'S LAWS are not important? HE'S less than man? Not as important?
God's Universal laws are very important and include everyone - but most (not all) Christians insist that their version of their interpretation of the bible (which are many) is ALWAYS the correct one. Confusion, 'tests' & riddles are NOT 'of God'.
For the killzionth time, when are u going to believe me when I say "I DIDN'T dream this up or "interpret" what GOD told me (Jer 31:34) fm a "book" but what HE SAYS doesn't contradict Bible although has shown some portions tampered w/by man! WHEN?
If *u* r anyone else call asking ppl to WAIT for HELP fm the HOLY SPIRIT before taking off like a man dragging a cow by the tail=a TRUNK in my eye; I have one! HOLY SPIRIT "lead" is the ONLY WAY to worship GOD (Jn4:23-24); the rest "propaganda!"
Neither you nor any religious fanatic 'dreams up' their own explanations. We R taught these 'versions' - and then we're taught how to 'prove' them & fight with each other & a disbelieving world over them - cuz its SO profitable to keep us div
How can we be "divided," IF "IN CHRIST" (aka "WAIT") who has "ONE MIND?" U can either obey HIS commands & find REAL TRUTH w/HIS "guidance" or "try to figure it out" & get HALF TRUTH w/*your* brain=LOST! It's up to you!
I've already 'waited' & figured things out - along with many other Christians & exChristians who also know the info in my spotlight hub. I used to be you, Norine: that's why I can argue this stuff. You're going to have to read to try debunkin
IF *u* "figured it out" *u* didn't "WAIT"! How could u have been "just like me" when I BELIEVE *HE* "reveals" *ALL* truth whereas *u* study history to reveal SOME truth? You're no better than the Romans giving HALF TRUTHS!
Until you figure out a way to actually debunk the Prayer of Mithras, the Imperial Cult & new controversy of Paul (unlikely, 'Paul beliefs' have seriously turned among Christians) - then you're just blowing kisses in the wind. )*(
One Sentence: GOD CREATED "ALL!" Which includes the mess you're talking about too! If they killed JESUS for Message, why do you think they wouldn't w/holding TRUTH to create LIES to debunk Message? Use HIS POWER for TRUTH; not "research" LIES!
Srsly, I have no idea how come you have the best answer, when clearly your comment is twisted. People who wants to know the truth, let me know and I'll make an article on separate website, in order not to be flag here in HP.
Julie, I'm interested in *your* truth! Let me know when you've finished HUB! Email me @email@example.com to inform! MF: Either one obeys to acquire HIS HELP or "research" LIES! GOD allowed LIES in Bible to TEST obedience("WAIT" for HELP)!
Julie, HP doesn't ban articles on religious controversy. Look at the title of my spotlight hub then go ahead & write your heart out! N, God gave 10coms in stone tablets TWICE 4 Jews; he DIDN'T create bible 300 yrs after J's death as a TEST!
NO! Man changed 300yrs after & inserted "some" LIES but ORIG MESSAGE didn't change! ALL (LIES too) "inspired by GOD" (ITim3:16) & HE allowed (TEST) to see if u would OBEY (Matt 13:10-13) by "WAITING" for THE HELP for "revelation" of THE TRUTH
Again, stone tablets TWICE to make sure Jews didn't miss out. God did NOT make things tricky, man did that later while trying to get a better grip of control on the world. Jesus' original, pre-State message was so much more powerful & simple.
It's "simple" & ALWAYS have been! "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve thru his subtily, so your minds should be corrupted FROM THE "SIMPLICITY" that is in Christ!" IF HE "LEADS!" Don't tell me WE DON'T NEED HIM bcuz we
Eve wasn't beguiled, she was enlightened. Rather than remain ignorant like you she chose to be knowledgeable. From that point on every effort has been made to make man seem less than what we are. What kind of god chastises people for understanding?
What "understanding?" ICor2:10-11 "But GOD has "revealed" them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searchest ALL THINGS, yea, the DEEP THINGS of GOD. For what man knoweth the thgs of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him?..." CONNECT!
It really is easy as that - connect. But U insist God requires us to 'believe' in Him, first. HIM = soul/christos/KoG ALREADY WITHIN. Jesus was 'a Christ' who came to show humans that they were 'Christs', also - no need 4 pagan rituals: FREE!
How does one "CONNECT" w/o BELIEF? When you received "gift," you BELIEVED in your heart! You invited HIM in! Why are you telling others not to? Why are you being sacrilegious? Why you don't want them to "CONNECT?" Do you believe in FAITH?
I realize the way I explain things seems hard to grasp; and this is probably the main reason why Jesus' story was written the way it was - bcuz Roman leaders couldn't understand another message beyond a pagan one. My hub simplifies & explains.
It's not my intent to "grasp" ANYTHING man "researched!" If not "Spirit" given from the WORD of GOD, not interested (I Cor 2:10-14)! Paganism "revealed!" I'm sorry dear, but in order to insult me, I must first value your opinion. Nice try though!
You don't know my opinion enough to value it or not - you refuse to read it or consider it. THAT is why I (obviously) have absolutely no respect for your continued ignorance & insults. Its the only way you can respond. Your 'fruits' are rotten.
*YOUR* opinion;NOT GOD'S cuz "the foolishness of GOD is wiser than men" (ICor1&2) for HE "searcheth ALL THGS" which leaves urs 1/2 TRUTH at best! "CONNECT" & "REST" in HIS PROMISES for "REAL TRUTH!" Blessings HP not providing notifications an
Our eternal soul is direct extention of Source of God - which is pure positive ENERGY & we return to our NATURAL STATE of BEING when we die to experience all we have 'expanded into' in this learning-world. Father God is BASELINE keeps souls SAFE.
Why worry about right or wrong if ALL "safe!" Why make any effort in righteousness? Does this make sense? Think about what you're saying! You sound more & more like an Atheist! You've been LIED to so much, you DOUBT! I tell u to let HIM "guide
"Why worry about right or wrong if ALL "safe!" Why make any effort in righteousness?" EXACTLY! No need to worry cuz NO ONE is 'unrighteous' & all R safe. PLEASE don't ask me how/why again... Either do research, read my hub or remain ignorant.
Have u ever heard of "dung in; dung out?" Your HUB will NEVER supersede GOD'S "leadership & guidance into ALL truth!" hah! You drink your own cool-aid it's to your destruction! LORD have mercy on u in the day of judgment! Either in=NO WORRIE
"Have u ever heard of "dung in; dung out?" You would know all about that, Norine. You're one of the most harmful 'Christians' I've known, even other C's are not safe from you. I appreciate all the ways you help show how deceived Christians are.
IF u call telling C's to "HUMBLE THEMSELVES," "SEEK HIM FIRST" ("born again") for "leadership&guidance" is "dung," AGAIN: "You Blaspheme!" You need to STOP CAT because you WILL "Stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ!"
Nope & unfortunately you won't be judged, either. Those aren't the things that make your C-beliefs wonky - its insisting J was a blood sacrifice for your sins & we MUST believe it - when he was showing peeps HOW to be FREE from THAT pagan bel
WELL, Scripture didn't LOSE THE MESSAGE did IT? We are FREE from "pagan mess" & MORE! So BELIEVING WORD gets the Message across doesn't it? Whether there's a hell or judgment is then IRRELEVANT but still secure from ANYTHING aren't we? WORD=TR
'WORD' IS TRUTH - but 'bible' is NOT WORD, you KNOW this; and I've proven over & over & OVER again in here WHY it is neither 'Word' nor 'Spirit' NOR 'God'. You have embraced the deceptive perspective & refuse to open your mind to the PROV
Bible IS "TRUTH" entwined in untruths which NO ONE can "figure out" (u 2) w/o "HUMBLING THEMSELVES" & "WAITING" for HELP fm HOLY SPIRIT! Why "RE-CONNECTION" is IMPERATIVE! Jn16:15 "ALL THINGS...will be shown unto you!" You DENY WORD! Blasphemy
You're wrong. Don't B afraid, Norine. Fear keeps U in bondage 2 this harmful belief system. Its not logical 4 humans 2 not B able 2 NATURALLY connect with God ourselves since we R natural offspring. Sin & redemption R pagan concepts WAY b4 Jesus.
So now-NO CREATION or Adam & Eve? NO "forbidden tree?" Man didn't fall? NO lineage of Christ? No Prophets? No NOTHING? Another 'creation' story? What? Ur belief;U fear I don't (Rm3:22)! NOTHING is/was "way before JESUS" (Rev1:8;Jn17:5)!
The story applies thru metaphor: Adam & Eve 'falling' is when humans began to incarnate as 'dual beings' - with an eternal soul 'in God's image' & physical body w/ ego. Duality CAUSES expansion of EACH single SOUL & the ONE SPIRIT.
Nope, its just like I said, Norine. There is only one Spirit and you already know that part. 'Duality' means that we incarnate (as Jesus did) with both an eternal soul that we ALREADY possess; and a human ego that falls away when we die.
There is ONE SPIRIT of "Righteousness!" Yet MANY "demonic!" "Test the spirits to see which 'ONE' is of GOD..." (IJn4:1) or u don't believe in "false prophets" (which seems to be the basis of your HUB) either? I SAY LET GOD "lead!" None BETTER
Only ONE SPIRIT: sin is not rebellion, its confusion & a learning tool 4 souls. Is 45:7 YUGE difference! Spirit DOES lead! I keep telling U there R TWO versions of Christianity now for a reason: FINALLY able to back His TRUTH up with SCIENCE!
Sin is "human nature" (Eph2:3) obtained fm 'fall! ' Is 8:20 "NO LIGHT (O/S WORD) in them!" There ARE NOT "TWO versions of Christianity!" Man-made ANOTHER gospel which includes "Science!" What is GREATER; Science or GOD? FOOLISHNESS!
NOPE again! Science is proving ANCIENT spiritual messages previous to Jesus (which also happen to be the ones he originally taught 2 FREE pagans). The whole wide world makes perfect sense from EVERY single direction & U don't know it, yet.
NOPE! U don't know yet that YOU ARE NOT GOD! "I AM" the VINE; ye are the branches.(v4) "Abide in me & I in u. As the branch can't bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the VINE; NO MORE CAN YE..." (Jn15:1;4) You THINK u the VINE! FOOL!
U don't know that U ARE GOD, yet! Think! WHEN R the branches EVER separated from the vine? Where does the vine 'end' & the branch 'begin'? It doesn't, we R DIRECT CHILDREN of God BORN with COMPLETELY CONNECTED KoG within. Human lies say otherwise
"Branches" fall off all the time in my yard! 1 fell on roof & ins claim! God will give you over to a reprobate mind for UNBELIEF! Didn't HE "curse the fig tree" for not producing? STOP! We have to SEEK! "shall not enter the KoG" n WORD+X's (Goog
MTdreamer....... all the religions,caste,creed is created by us. Lord almighty created the universe and the mankind, mankind has created the divide on the basis of nationality,religion,caste and creed.......i believe in the supreme power who has created everything around you, you can call him/her by any name.Person who does good deed will always be blessed by him/her even if he does not believe in his/her existence.Do your good KARMA and leave everything to him/her.
Djaak, our good is relative. God's good is absolutely perfect. No one is perfect whether considered good in this world or not. Jesus must present you perfect to God. He can because he died to pay our sin debt.
"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today & forever"(Heb13:8) & is "before the world was"(Jn17:5);then GOD & "killed in Old Testament;" then kills "yesterday, today & forever!" Rev6:17"the great day of HIS "WRATH" is come;& who sha
While there are a lot of religions out there the only people who know the truth are the people who have passed from this world. while it is good to have faith all religions are interpreted by people, and sure how can we know which people are the ones who have it right? I mean most people cannot even agree on what to have for dinner or what colour the ocean is even when they are looking at it, so I do think that religion is supposed to mean different things to different people depending what answers are needed by that person at that time.I think religions are changeable depending on which person is reading or teaching the text. But what I have noticed is that nearly every person is born with the inbuilt knowledge of what is morally right and morally wrong this I think would be the work of god. The one thing that is pretty much black and white and not open to too much interpretation. so no if there is a heaven and a hell I don't think that if you life a good life but are not religious you are automatically destined for hell.
There are many ways to Jesus, but there is only way to God; eventually you must pass thru Jesus for eternal salvation. Souls that lived a good life shall be resurrected after the 2nd Coming, and taught Jesus. If they say this is my Ideal. than...OK.
Great words CDoyle. There are many ways to find the God within you. Don't look externally or you'll miss it. Virtue will get you everywhere. Honoring a false god is what is taught by major religions, ie something external to yourself.
Jewels, fine for within but God is omnipresent, and His Spirit of Truth proceeds from the external also. You are missing most of God; especially the traditional knowledge assessed during eons of time. Sorry.
No apology necessary wilmiers77. I am totally okay with the omnipresent part of myself that is God. If you want traditional knowledge assessed during eons of time you must go to the dream time of the aborigine, not the bible. The bible is very young
Jewels, this is what we are referring to when we say the Holy Spirit. "The letter of the law kills, but the spirit of the law is life (within each and all)." After all is said and done, Self must bow out.
Jewels, my belief is that the true "Self" is a state after receiving Jesus as Lord and Savior; even though, each Self (Individual) has a mansion in God's Kingdom and remains unique. Each have a Comforter from God in the Name of Jesus for now.
Now, have you experienced it? Do you know what it feels like? I have myself, I'm asking you have you had the tangible experience. Not a belief but an experience? Void of external senses, do you know what it feels like?
Jewels, of course, we all that have received Jesus had the experience, and I have been living as such. Although, I continually search the scriptures for more knowledge of God. And, bring this knowledge to my daily life experiences and interactions.
We are given the choice and if we chose to accept Jesus Christ as our Savior through the asking of forgiveness we are saved from eternal hell. You make your choice as you wish. I made mine. Thank you Lord for your gift of redemption!
Doing good doesn't make you good any more than standing in a garage makes you a car. God gave us the gift of salvation through the accepting of the sacrifice of Jesus' death on the cross to pay for the sin in our lives. Accepting this sacrifice, asking forgiveness for our sin, believing in Him and confessing our belief to others is ALL he requires. It is impossible for us to "do" enough to qualify our works as equal to the worth of God giving the life of his Son for us. All God wants is acceptance and appreciation.
As a military parent, no person can obey the law or care for a family to equal the cost of my son's life if he were to lose it for your freedom. Acceptance and appreciation would make it bearable, but God is greater and has more love for you and I than I could ever have.
I chose to Accept, Believe and Ask for forgiveness. I gratefully accept his gift of salvation. I hope others will too.
But if the only standard for good is an acceptance of Jesus, then what motivation does a Christian have to do any good deeds? If you're guaranteed a spot in heaven just by accepting Jesus, then a life of sin is entirely acceptable.
M.T. There is every reason to do good as a Christian. Because Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice by dying on the cross I owe my life to him and would not wilfully sin against him because I am so thankful. Instead it is my one desire to glorify Him.
I think it was the line "Doing good doesn't make you good" that got to me. By that logic, doing bad doesn't make you bad, acting sad doesn't make you sad, etc. We can only judge people by their actions because we can't read their minds or their heart
M.T., line "Doing good...good" is based on the Perfect Will of God as opposed to relative humanistic values; norm social values that fall short of the glory of Eternal God in their application. Jesus mediates our for perfection.
But if no one can communicate with god, who can know what is good and what isn't? The bible has already proven itself unreliable through its acceptance of slavery and its denouncement of things like figs. No one really knows what is right or wrong.
M.T.,anyone can commune with God; we are under grace. The Permissive Will of God applies to all, liken unto the first time my Grandson totted to another tottler and handed him a toy put tears in my eye; although far from love U R neighbor as self.
If anyone can commune with god, and he tells people different things, who is to know which one is right? What if he tells me I don't need to be christian to get into heaven? Is that satan? What if the one talking to you is satan?
You know only via religion is it OK to hear voices. How many cases have there been in the USA were parents kill children because god told them to do it? -Genesis 22:5 and 22:8 God didn't know Abraham feared him before this? does not sound like a god.
jlcustompc, One must know God's voice Who is the Lord. God wanted Abraham to experience so that he would know for everyone else to witness. God asked Adam a question that clearly God knew. Did it with Adam also.
It is frustrating isn't it, to be threatened by other religions that if you do not follow a certain path you will not reach heaven. Such rubbish it makes me cringe.
The bible is misunderstood in many ways and preached terribly by fundamentalist christians. Mainstream christians will assert that if you lead a virtuous life you will be accepted into heaven but FC's don't agree.
There is no need to only honor Jesus as is threatened. He was a man who actually taught virtue and it is this he is asking of those he taught. The kingdom of heaven is within, it's not without honoring an external deity.
Religious affiliation is disgraceful in some forms and goes against human decency in many teachings.
Jewels, after reviewing I thought I need to qualify something. I am not believing that Jesus is not in the minds of believers of other religions or faith. God's Spirit of Truth testifies of Jesus in All, many incompletes must become one whole Spirit.
Having a personal relationship with Jesus requires you go into the depth of yourself and find the part of you that is no different to Jesus. And yes it feels like you're having a love affair. Impossible to really love if you are not in yourself.
You mean like your inner Christ? Do you ever believe you would ever be on par with Jesus? As holy as He is? Do you believe you can be a Christ by opening your third eye? Your beliefs are very dangerous.
Takes much much more than opening your third eye. It takes many years of practices. Christ is within, it always has been and always will be. You will never find what you are searching for through external means. It's just not there.
Claire you've been down this road before. I am not a false Christ, Christ is within me and is within you and everyone else. You misunderstand the bible. Go inside yourself and find what Jesus was wanting you to do all along.
What do you mean He is in you? Do you think you are an extension of His divinity or can learn to be? How can you say Christ has been inside of us all along but say it takes years of practice? Do you think we can learn to be a Christ?
Jewels, yes Christ is within us all. So is God's Holy Spirit; Spirit of Truth, and the Comforter. Referring to the OP, Jesus must present you perfect to God to rec eternal life. Don't confuse with the Permissive Will of God for living now.
Thank you Wilmiers for eluding to me being a space ship. I can tell you the ride is absolutely beautiful. Go within and you can also experience what Jesus did. And Thanks Jazzy - truth (the Word) as an experience makes for an extraordinary life.
Jewels, sorry, but I was referring to your teachings of "Self" as the small one engine plane as compared to the Word of God. Believe that Jesus is the Son of God? Have you read "Loss your life for my sake is life gained afterward 100 times over."...
Wilmiers, what do you mean Christ is within us all? Satanists have Christ in them? Atheists? Are you saying the Christ within us all is a higher power to our potential godhood? You sound like a New Ager.
You have to know what hell is. Being full of the sin of the world means the complete separation from God and that is hell. God cannot be near sin. What is the victory of Christ if He didn't conquer death and hell?
Thanks for responding, but I still don't remember anything in the Bible about Jesus going to Hell to find out what it was. The story is he died on the cross to pay for human sins and then went to Heaven.
Atheists do not believe in a God. They do not believe in Satan either. Satan is not the default option. They may be good people. To suggest that good people who may spend their lives helping their fellow man are are Satanists is appalling.
wilmiers77, I can tell you absolutely that I am no one engine plane. But you are correct that the state of Self is not the Absolute. But comparing the little ego to the state of Self is a huge error in esoteric studies.
Again wilmiers77 you misunderstand the meaning of Self (capital S). You would not manifest as a human being if you did not have this state. The little ego however, is what you need to work on. Go inside via your third eye as Jesus did & you'll k
After reading through all these comments I am delighted to see so many truth seakers. Seek and ye shall find! I think this statement to be true regardless of whether you are using you first, second or even a third eye if you happen to have one
Jewels....Your words, wisdom and true knowledge of how we know Christ & where to find the answers is the most accurate, loving and real. You are the only one here who speaks the truth. I appreciate your tenacity. We fully agree.
If we were ALL "born" w/the KoG w/in us; Scripture LIED (Ps51:5;ICor15:21;Rm5:12-31)! One must "OBEY" to acquire KoG! Why did u stop reading @ Lk 17:21?V25 says "BUT "FIRST" must HE suffer ..." then u "obey" to acquire! There r "laws" to "acquir
Norine Jesus has been on his throne and directing us to make sure people know about the good news of his Heavenly Government. We obey and do just as our King tells us.We are in an education work as Jesus says teach Not in an argumentative Work
If "Jesus on his throne," WHERE IS GOD - DEAD? There's no big daddy GOD & his little Son Jesus! YOU FOOLS! There is ONE SPIRIT who operates in "GLORIES" of ANYTHING, ANYTIME, ANYPLACE; simultaneously if HE DESIRES for HE is GOD but NAME is JESU
Did you know we can act just like him accusing our brothers with bad intent. Thats exactly what satan does notice ! Rev 12:10. Says he does this day and night. We are not to act like him so stop fighting with and accusing people.
How did *I* "accuse" when I repeated what GOD (aka JEHOVAH) said? Is Bible not HIS WORD? If not, why believe? U call HIS WORD "bad intent?" BE CAREFUL! There's a difference between "fighting" & "CORRECTING" although "children" see as such!
Yes. When you 'feel good' you are in harmony with the eternal 'soul' part of you; when you feel bad (any negative emotion) - you are in disagreement; because God can only see 'the good' in absolutely everything. This is our navigation system.
Oh, ''so I can just "think" harmonious thoughts & get to heaven? lol Atheist can too? No "judgment day"(Heb9:27;2Cor5:10)? No need for Paul to have taught "The Gospel of Christ" (Gal 1:6-9)? Please explain that!
J & Paul both taught the SAME 'gospel of Christ' or the Kingdom of God WITHIN us all. They taught it bcuz people believed they needed pagan rituals to atone for their human nature. They were teaching: NO SALVATION NEEDED, you are a 'god', as J is
Jesus said "If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came..." Did you not hear; "...unto whom the word of God came...?" Not ALL are "gods!" "The Word of God MUST come unto one" or BELIEVE! Why do u ignore parts of Scripture?
I don't worship scripture & have it in perspective. IF U did not have The Bible to confuse U with the intertwined pagan stories of Mithras & Imperial Cult, Jesus would not have had to EVER come OR die to correct deceptive spiritual perception
U believe "some parts" (as I) but u don't believe MOST IMPORTANT part *HE* "leads & guides!" I BELIEVE "ALL" until *HE* "leads & guides" me into truth" WITHIN HIS WORD! Did u read the contradictions HE "revealed" or just DELETE? I didn't go o
I know you are having a hard time getting it through your head that he HAS BEEN LEADING & GUIDING many Christians away from those obviously-misleading, pagan biblical 'salvation' beliefs. Stop ignoring me on the controversies of Paul & do a S
When one "takes it upon themselves" to "FIGURE IT OUT"(Prov3:5) you DEFY the WORD of GOD(Jn14:26) & come up w/yet another RELIGION! TRUST HIM to "FIGURE IT OUT" (aka "reveal") for REAL TRUTH & not *your* HALF TRUTH you'll get BETTER RESULTS!
Get it through your head that he HAS BEEN LEADING & GUIDING many Christians away from 'salvation' - cuz its obviously harmful on the soul; and we're grown up enough to finally be able to grasp the truth. Restart your brain, research & release
Yes "he" has (Satan)! I don't find ONE Scripture that tells us to "research" o/s Bible(II Pet 1:3)! Scripture testifies of Itself! IICor13:5 "Examine yoursleves, whether u be in THE FAITH...Know u not that Jesus is in u EXCEPT YE BE REPROBATES?"
I don't believe in religion, heaven or hell. I believe life ends when you are dead. I have a lot of respect for those that have religion and if I'm wrong about an after life then I'll deal with that when it happens, MJ.