Is it not a Christian doctrine that every human beings is sinful except Jesus?
But born-again Christians are under grace. If we do our best to follow Him, He not only helps us, but He counts us as righteous because of HIS righteousness.
It will probably take a hub to explain this really well but I am going to try.
All are born in sin. This does not mean they are born with sin. It means they are born with a sin nature. Kids do not need to be taught to lie and blame someone else for the things they do. It is in their nature to do so.
Jesus was born without sin. He remained sinless His entire life. He was not born of the seed of a man but of the seed of a woman.
Go back to Genesis. Eve ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil first. She then gave it to Adam and he ate it. It wasn't until Adam ate it that their eyes were opened. So now the seed of man is imperfect.
It is written; "Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience(Adam) many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one(Jesus) shall many be made righteous."
Emphasis and words in ( ) are mine added for clarity.
By Adam sin enetered the world. Not by Eve eating the fruit. By Jesus Christ many shall be made righteous or made to be in right standing with God.
What does that mean to be born with a sin nature and yet not born with sin? Where is the demarcation point between the two?
And, what you're saying about children who lie and blame others as being part of their nature if only to protect themselves and ignorant of consequences.
Children who grow up with no guidance will eventually learn and understand that lying and blaming others is not a course of action that benefits them in any way. They lose the trust of others and become alienated as a result.
Instead, they will eventually learn that honesty and accountability benefits them much greater as they are trusted and accepted.
But, this is not a sinful nature, this is simply learning by trial and error.
I hardly think I can change your mind on this.
The flesh hates God. Always has and always will. The flesh of man is like satan himself. Always against what God stands for and who He is.
If it is only trial and error, why are there so many who never learn not to lie?
When you simply make claims and offer no explanation, one is hardly going to understand let alone change their minds.
I'm sorry, SirDent, but that does not explain the your claim about the nature of sin and not being born with sin. What is the difference?
How can flesh hate something? Flesh is just flesh.
We use our cognitive reasoning to make decisions about what we hate. For example, a new born cannot hate your god, fleshy or otherwise, as they have absolutely no knowledge of your god or any other gods.
You'll need to explain your claims a whole lot better than that, SirDent.
What do you mean they never learn not to lie? Who are you talking about, exactly?
What gets hungry? what feels pain? where does jealousy come from? The brain is flesh and has its own thoughts. Ever wonder where some of those awful thoughts come from? Dreaming is flesh thats alive. The flesh has wants and desires and when that flesh influences the person, the person then has to choose between what the flesh wants; sex, donuts. When it comes time to pray how long before the flesh wants to get up and play that video game. Or how about lounging in the sun instead of mowing the lawn.
The christian is very aware that the flesh is alive because the flesh fights against the spirit and this battle is constant.
Kids make a lot of mistakes while growing up and have to be taught that its wrong to lie or steal. Everybody has stolen something at some point. Then as they grow up they modify these childhood rules to suit their own existence. Anger is of the flesh, while love is of the spirit.
The stomach sends a message to the brain when it requires food, while nerve endings send messages to the brain when they experience pain.
From strongly wanting someone else's position, advantages or possessions.
Yes, we have our own thoughts and we use are brains to have these thoughts because that is the function of the brain. The brain is not made of flesh, but instead of various tissue materials.
I have no idea what you're talking about. Do you have awful thoughts? If so, what are they and where do they come from? You tell me.
Dreaming is the brain functioning while we are asleep.
The person can decide whatever they want, whether it's sex or donuts or basketball. Do you have a point to make here?
I have no idea, you tell me how long it takes for you to get bored of praying and start playing video games or whatever? Then, you can tell me how much your praying has got you to stop thinking awful thoughts, too? Then, you can tell me if Christians have sex and eat donuts and play basketball and whether or not that is okay with your god?
Here's where the injection of wishful and magical thinking disintegrate your argument in childish drivel. In other words, it is only a belief in biblical scripture that supports your position. Facts and evidence do not enter the playing field in any way.
Funny, how that would imply kids are not inherently evil and their parents are not inherently evil.
Well, like you just said, kids make mistakes.
Where is the problem in that?
Pointless drivel, supported from only one source; biblical scriptures.
Your quotes from Romans do not support the doctrine of Original Sin.
From v 12, Adam was the first to sin and was barred from the Tree of life, so death came to him. As the tree was no off limits to all men, then all men die. This says nothing about an inherited sinful nature.
From v19, After his disobedience many followed his example, and it just happens to be so that all men do choose at some point to sin. If you are going to interpret the 'many made sinners' as meaning 'each and every person' then logic dictates that 'many made righteous' means each and every person' too. But the Church refuses to accept the idea that each and every person is made righteous. You can't have you cake and eat it.
Original sin is contradicted by:
Psalm 139:13-14 'For you [God] created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.'
So God has created each and everyone of us; our fleshly bodies, the beginnings of a soul, and His spirit of life breathed into us. So where does the sin come in? If created by God, then how can that which comes from God be sinful in its nature? All that comes from God is whole, and right, and good.
Of course it does. By one man sin entered the world. We are all born into this world. Even David who wrote the Psalm you quoted was born into the world.
We are wonderfully made in the spirit as the spirit of God infiltrates our being. David would not have written that without the spirit of God manifesting Himself in David.
David is the only man to have been spoken of by God Himself to be the "apple of His eye."
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
One must separate the flesh from the spirit. Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
There are many who do not walk in the spirit but walk in the flesh. The flesh has lusts and desires and it is by these lusts and desires that we are tempted.
There is nothing in what you said above to justify original sin, a Catholic Church construct.
Walking in the flesh is a reference to doing as one pleases, walking in the spirit refers to submission to God. However in the flesh I might decide to have cornflakes for breakfast, but that is no sin.
Now if we are created by God in the womb then we are perfect and there is no original sin. However, not many years of exposure to the world when sin is present, we begin to copy the sinful things around us, consciously or unconsciously.
Man is not inherently evil or sinful at all.
It is in your flesh that you lust.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
I agree with this. We must realize that we are drawn into sin by our own lusts.
I disgree with this part of your comment. Men are inherently evil. They serve their own desires and lusts.
And yet, no matter how many times you keep repeating that mantra, you are completely unable to explain it, scientific studies to the contrary and the fact that men show on many occasions and under a many different scenarios that men are not inherently evil.
Did science ask those same men how many times they have told a lie? Did science ask them if they ever felt violent toward another before?
Men are violent creatures. Look back through history and you will find out.
What if they did and what if they didn't? So what?
If what you believe were true and ALL men were inherent liars and inherently evil, then ALL men would never do good things, ever. Our species would have become extinct long ago as we would only be self-serving animals with no desire to do any good, to never cooperate or work with others for a greater benefit to all.
Are you yourself inherently a liar? Are you an evil person at heart and maliciously wish the downfall and destruction of others, and the only thing keeping you from waving axes at everyone is a belief in a god?
Is that the real you?
We can look back through history and see violent times. And, we can look at what happened that caused the violence in the first place, whether it was mass murder, wars or despots.
But, what we are actually doing is picking a very small percentage of individuals out of the billions that have existed on the planet who caused that vast majority of carnage. It does not show at all that ALL men are inherently evil. What it does shows is that a small percentage of men were insane and did anything to gain power and control over others.
We can get into the reasons why these men did the things they did, whether it was over atheism or religion or politics or donuts, it really doesn't matter as it will not show in any way that ALL men are inherently evil.
you don't have to be evil to be separate from God. Evil is not a debated point here, separation from God is what wrongdoing does. God does not just want to change the mass murderer or civil protester but he wants to change the mild mannered clark kents of the world too, because all have come short (not reached the point) of the glory of God.
So whether a person has sinned or not is beside the point, its the relationship with God that is important. If theres a good relationship then sinning will be a non issue. But all people before knowing God have sinned in some fashion, some bigger and more than others and may indeed be verging on evil but God wants all people. Just for the record there are no bigger or littler sins, mark.
Pure nonsense. There is no evidence whatsoever that would suggest separation from YOUR god causes wrongdoing.
A complete lack of morals and ethics is fine and one can do whatever they want as long as they have a relationship with your god. It matters not what the sin is, whether murder or the stealing of a donut, all is well as long as one turns to god.
Completely selfish and malicious behavior in that there is no respect or thought for ones fellow man, and only that which is important is to make sure in ones mind they are on in the glory of their god. The aftermath of their actions is entirely irrelevant to the proceedings.
Is that the best you can muster? That is the extent of your intellectual capacity? An unhealthy obsession with buzzers?
Just because Paul had issues with his behaviour and desires, or internal conflicts about what to do or not to do, or found himself doing that which he should not do, etc, etc, what he called the flesh, this by no means can be offered up as the universal condition of man.
I for one have no internal conflicts or worries about what I say and do. I am perfectly at peace and harmony with myself. I occasionally want sex and at other times would rather have a donut. Battles with my flesh? No. I am at peace with God and I am not inherently evil.
It is at best an insult and degradation of all mankind, our compassionate nature, our hopes and dreams, our accomplishments and failures that bring us all together as humans.
I think it's a pre-condition, from original sin to start manipulating, instilling fear from the very beginning
The Bible teaches that every human being is imperfect, except for Jesus Christ
Actually, Jesus said" Why do you call me good? Only one is good and that is the one true god." So even Jesus wasn't perfect by his own admission.
Yes definitely Jesus did say that because it is true. But when Jesus was on Earth, the scriptures show that he was perfect in human organism. Hence he was able to buy back what Adam had lost - everlasting life.
Hmmm...He had to be baptised, Got mad and took a whip to some traders. Argued and "blasphemed" against his own religious leaders. Worked on the sabbath...just to name a few things...This is called leading by example???
You do know, that if you don't believe in the Flying Spagetti Monster, that you will never be able to experience the tomato goodness of the warm sauce that each believer is slowly simmered in.
Baptized because until his death the law was still in force.
Got angry and snapped warning shots over their heads (he didnt hit anyone) He chased them out of "his fathers house". They were inside the temple. If they were gonna sell these sacrificial artifacts, goats, doves etc.. then they should have been outside the temple.
Look at catholicism today, i say that religion has done more damage to christianity than any other. Jesus said the pharisees were the same way. This is not a wrong thing to do.
Worked on the sabbath... nope.. healing people is not really work now is it, especially to God. He said that if one of their sheep fall into a pit they would rescue it on the sabbath. The sabbath he kept and the festivals just as the law required, but he showed their hypocrisy despite all their added rules.
The love and forgiveness and the lack of self and his teachings are excellent examples.
If you do not believe in the God of the bible you won't have respect for what he does and if you don't believe in jesus you will not be able to be comforted in the warm goodness that each believer is simmered into.
have a nice day
What does this god do? Let millions of children starve every year?
I used to be a "Christian", I know how and why the belief is the way it is. Which is why I used the joke at the end of my comment. And I see you used the same one...If someone does not believe in something, it seems silly to them. I don't care to argue your personal beliefs with you. I have my beliefs, you have yours. But, I don't claim mine to be facts or truths for everyone. They are facts and truths to me only. So far, I have not stated my beliefs in this forum. I have only posted "facts" from the bible. So, arguing with my post is only arguing with your own bible.
It doesn't matter how you call it, Jesus was a Jew. The Christian beliefs stated with S/Paul. Even the Apostles taught a "Jesus" version of Judeo Religion. ( Just my thoughts)
i appreciate facts especially those from the bible, they are the only important facts there are. But facts spewed out in poor context and used improperly do not do justice to the facts but deprecate them and turn them into lies.
Therefore did i respond
to make your facts more factual.
Lets see, who has the Degree in Biblical Studies? As I have said before, I post the bibical "facts" as is taught by todays education system. So, once again, not my "facts". What you are posting, is your version of the "facts" , as you understand the written words. So, if you would like to call those who teach the bible, and are considered the "experts" wrong, go for it.
Speaking of turning the biblical "facts" into lies, well, let's just say, why would there be a need for more than one translation of the bible? And where are the missing Gospels that the Accredited Colleges and Seminaries teach as part of the Biblical Studies degree program? How come they are not in the Bible that most of us read today?
EDIT: In one of the other threads, I posted a link for 2 free courses from Yale University. Introduction to the Old Testament and Introduction to the New Testament. If you are interested in seeing what schools are teaching today, I'll post the link for you. Let me know.
Moses, Jesus had no degrees to speak of; Truth needs no degrees.
I was refering to the fact that I hold a PHD in Biblical Studies.
It is OK; even then one has to prove one's point that it is truthful; the degrees don't add any credence to one's point.
Agreed. Which is why, I rarely present my own points. I can't prove them. However, I can post what is currently being taught about the bible in colleges today.
I would disagree on one point. Typically, one who holds a Doctorate in a given field, I tend to assume, they know and understand thier chosen field.
Missing gospels No such thing.
Might as well say the book of enoch was actually written by enoch or the lost book of adam and eve is scripture or the gospel of thomas is good for edification.
If thats what they are teaching, the course should be called apostasy 101.
I thought the holy spirit was supposed to lead us into all truth? But you say only a top group of mucky mucks has the insights.. this is not christianity
your mixture of pagan and bible confuses you
You are putting words in my mouth that I did not say. I said that I post what is being taught about the bible. And that the people who teach it are consider to be "experts" And yes the Gospel of Thomas is one of the books that is taught. And seeing as Christian beliefs are also based on pagan beliefs, then I guess we are in the same boat. As I have said, I don't post my "beliefs" on here. If I post my personal opinion, I label it as such.
I personally don't care how you believe. That is your choice. But, I worked hard to get the education that I have, I wouldn't downplay your formal education, and it would be appreciated if you didn't downplay mine. Just because we do not believe the same way, does not in anyway mean that I do not have knowledge of the Bible or of the christian doctrine. Does this mean I know how you believe...No, I don't know how you believe unless you tell me. But I do know the christian doctrine, the bible and associated texts and how they are being taught for todays new Pastors, Ministers, Priests or whatever title that is attached to those who "preach" or lead religious services.
I offered an insight to what is being taught. Yale has 2 free courses, covering the Old and the New Testaments. And it seems that those who talk the loudest about "knowing" the bible, are the ones not interested in learning what is being formally taught.
Have a blessed day!
EDIT: P.S. Thanks for reminding me to update my profile information.
Why don't you read the Bible yourself? What is the need of knowing it from the so called "experts"? Bible is available online; one has just to start reading it.
I have 12 different versions of the bible. I have read it cover to cover at least 20 times and I read the bible everyday. I also have an English copy of the Qu'ran, a copy of the Book of Mormon and a copy of the Torah. I also have other texts that are not in any bible, but are considered religious texts. I also have texts on Wicca, Asatru, Buddhism, and various other religions. I am always studying. I have a formal education in Biblical Studies. The reason I post what is taught in schools, instead of my own personal beliefs, is because what I believe and what someone else believes is not always the same things. But, what is being taught in schools should be something that can be debated, but of course, that is not the case here. For the most part, everyone wants to argue about who is right or wrong, instead of looking at both sides with an open mind and increasing thier knowledge as a whole, while keeping their personal beliefs intact.
BrotherO is not the least bit interested as he has already declared himself the ultimate arbiter of biblical interpretation, he's right and everyone else is wrong.
Imperfect is another thing but all human beings are born innocent.
but Allegorically to be born again means to live a new life thru the spirit of God in the believer.
Its just as good.
Every society and culture has phrases that represent something else.
when we say "all hell broke loose" or "bobs your uncle"... is bob really your uncle?.. yet the term has its applications. Did hell brake loose? but the people of the time understand what this means. "and their eyes were opened".. does that mean their eyes were previously shut or that they had no vision.
As Brenda said, Christians are cleansed of sin BY GRACE, but by nature, yes we are sinful beings. Catholics also believe, in contrast to Protestant Christian doctrine, that Mary was also sinless from conception. She is BY GRACE what Christ is BY NATURE. Interesting question.
Is it not a Christian doctrine that every human being is sinful except Jesus?
It shows disrespect to the humanity in general. Every human beings is born sinless and born innocent; when one attains adolescence then one only is responsible for one's actions, right or wrong.
Well, that's the purpose of religion, isn't it? To tell us we are not worthy, we are sinners, and cannot approach god without the church doing it for us. Obey the church or burn in hell.
Otherwise, if there is no religion, there is no concept that all people are sinners.
I choose the latter.
Don't think original sin does much to promote peace and harmony in the world. It is immediately the inferior and those that overcome it and become superior. And there is human history.
Original sin is not a doctrine which is taught in the bible. Efforts to insist that all of humanity is thereby tainted, all desires are corrupted, or all infants are damned without baptism are untrue. Because of temptation and the instinctive desires of physical bodies, human beings wrestle with the desire to sin (Matthew 26:41), but Adam's actions in the Garden of Eden have no bearing on this.
The premise of what some people call original sin is taken care of through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. The same thing goes for the sins that people commit throughout their lives if they continue to practice faith and obediance to the gospel principles of salvation.
In fact a large portion of the Christian world accepts the radical assertations of a man named Augustine who interperted a fraction of the scriptures (because he couldn't read Greek) and other early Christian writings as such when infact his ideology has no support from the bible.
The old testement taught that we were fallen from the garden of eden into sinful existence and thats all they told us. So people went around sacrificing lambs and kids and babies and everything trying to get back in the good books.
Then moses gave us some laws to live by, but we still couldn't and sinned anyway and still went around sacrificing and burning and warring with our neighbor.
The jesus came and told us hey, you know what, sins can be forgiven, just live in peace and love your neighbor. But we couldn't do that either and we killed him anyway and started some more wars and genocide.
if you believe in god, he has come down here a couple times and told us how to live and yet we still mess it up.
That is a misconception of the scribes; "fallen" does not mean physical fall; it only means man got indulged in sin and was gone astray; man could again come on the right path by asking forgiveness, repentance, resolution not to do the mistake again and by doing virtuous deeds.
How unfortunate it is for believers to be forced to do virtuous deeds just to gain acceptance from their gods. Quite selfish, actually.
What makes christianity, christianity is the fact that nobody can earn their salvation or nobody can work their way in. Gods acceptance is not earned and cannot be bought or bribed.
i'll let you figure the rest out
it will be worth the chuckle
What exactly is a virtuous deed you can do to gain the salvation of God?
Not every child is born evil - I know one of my sons was not. Only one of them it's true, but still.
Actually only one of my DIDN'T lean toward doing good things. So I have serious doubts about the whole idea that people are born that way. Many people seem evilly inclined from very, very young ages, no matter how they're raised but certainly not all.
Men are inherently evil. They serve their own desires and lusts.
I take refuge in God.
Jesus was son of man; was he also inherently evil?
I don't think so.
You should read all the posts that were made in reply to you.
Jesus is the one exception. He was not born of the seed of man.
"Men are violent creatures. Look back through history and you will find out." There are plenty of instances of non-violent peoples, like the California Indians for one. Violence arises with the advent of progressive profit.
"Anger is of the flesh, while love is of the spirit."
Anger is of the spirit (mind), while love is of the flesh (body).
Umm, wasn't man made by god? and if so, and we are flawed, then so is the creater, or he has chosen to make us this way. Perfect creator should be able to make a perfect creature and can banish evil from the universe in the snap of a finger.
"or he has chosen to make us this way."
One's choice, one's responsibility. It wasn't me, God made me do it.
"How do you respond to posts in part?"
Excellent. Where a single part is the essence and exemplifies the whole. The secret of speed reading. Identify or read only three words: subject, verb, and predicate of the whole paragraph. Its practice like Blitz chess learns the game faster.
Christian doctrine that every human beings is sinful is not from Jesus and is therefore unchristian.
The Christians should reform it to set their religion right.
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