Are we born with original sin? I do not think so. Correct me if I am wrong.
We have the Council of Nicea. We have Augustine and we have Paul. Some claim Adam and Eve sealed the sin deal for every wonderful beautiful baby born. If you wanted to you could show some interesting notions regarding abortion.
I think I get the idea and I could maybe accept it. But it fails the love test. How can a man look at a premature infant struggling to thrive and say "that child is sinful"?
Of course not... it's just religious claptrap to control the masses and the idea isn't even biblical..Everyone is responsible for their own actions whether they are religious or not. Everyone has free will to decide whether to be sinful or not so sin isn't inherited from Adam and Eve.
ED, God is ever-transcending, not static. Even His earthly prototype is. We are not where the Wright brothers were and each moment is new, yet alone years. The Soul carries past experiences. Sin is that which binds us.Nothing heavy. Part of growth.
Eric to remind many that it was King James of England in 1600's who decided to translate the bible himself very political .He also decided to remove the personal name YHWH tetregraminton of the Heavenly Father name.
Replaced with Lord .
Jesus is lo
Two questions here. In a 'loose'sense, the child is not sinful, but again we have fallen short of the glory of God. Of course the baby is heavily reliant and in a state of complete surrender. Still, the physical is simply a vessel of an inner spark which is immortal and deathless, which some call Soul.
One girl, I believe, asked you: 'If you are perfect, then why are you here?' Essentially, it is really because we are in isolation from Love and the journey is necessary, with all its trials, to find our way Home.
What is sin? They are impediments or obstacles; shadows or ignorance, or 'Nafs' which is really a very natural part of our struggle and should be embraced. Both Light and darkness, are the dance of Love.
Now the baby or Soul, comes with this, through the process of transmigration and re-incarnation, if we believe that this is not the first or last life. That is why we have child prodigy's or the chosen few remembering their past lives. In this Light, the child becomes like you and I.
As regards abortion, It is so important to walk in the other man or woman's shadows! There are myriad things that can inspire or motivate our intentions and the inner Pilot knows best.
Conscience is none other than the voice off God and purity of intention becomes paramount. So 'thou shall not kill' may not necessarily apply in self-defense, or in dying for one's country, if the cause is worthy or noble to the Heart. Much Love.
An intellectual reply, my Bro. If you believe in transmigration or reincarnation. The soul takes many births to purify and perfect itself. But, I do not consider it to be as taking birth as sinful beings. It is only carrying forward of your balances.
Help me out Manatita. This notion of a journey gets far to much credit. I am where I was 40 years ago and where I will be in 40 more. It is only our perspective that changes. Not our heart. So am I sinful or not? -- my nature does not change. Or?
Yes, V.M. For you and I it is straightforward. I do not even use the word 'sin.' It is a religious concept, but important nevertheless. We speak of 'ignorance' or 'impediments.' The Soul always carry the essence of experiences past and past. (Karma)
This acceptance of a rotation until "I get it right" is not acceptable. I must get it right, right now. Seconds and over does it like a Mulligan playing golf is not good enough - you do not just get to play - next time I will get it right.
I Agree, we are on a journey to comprehend earth and all of its parts by incarnating as every attribute found on earth. That isn't sin defined as "missing the mark" but sin only to everyone who judges things good and evil.
Eric what happened you stop our conversation. I didn't see the part here that you wanted certain issues. I only answered the one question. Didn't know you wanted non scriptural answers or opinions. Did you see my comment?
Terrie I think we are close in our understanding. The difference seems to me to be that I believe sin must be a choice. No free will no sin. How can being born be sinful? Without the tradition there is not scripture to back up original sin.
I like 'inner Pilot' - more expressive than 'inner being'. I don't agree that our reincarnations carry forward balances. Every incarnation is NEW & former life experience HELPS affect us. Its why we don't remember them. We're NEW creations!
Reaping whatsoever man do is done via reincarnation: I rape a girl so I'm raped as her by reincarnation. The girl raped I incarnate as to imbed the raped & raping emotions into my spirit for all 360 degrees of the experienced is how karma works.
That ISN'T how karma works. Join the revolution! Karma is spirit-based, not sin-based. Its the mystery variable. Christianity isn't the only religion that has things twisted. Karma explained well about halfway thru: https://youtu.be/V6xCjY39_t0
In an altercation my opponent tripped my was almost knocked out, I left, later in another the reverse happened. We rekindled our friendship after karma allowed us both to experienced the 180 degrees of its emotions. That's karma & reaping & s
Yes original sin is true. Not the kind man creates now, that dilberate sin. The choices we make and the things that transgress against god and Christ. We are born into sin, that's why we needed christs sacrifice to atone for our sin. The scriptures say a perfect life, for a perfect life. Because of him our sins can be forgiven. I remember a scripture that also says, no man is without sin. Many people now don't even use the word sin, for some reason won't acknowledge it even exists. I had to acknowledge my sin in order to be forgiven that sin. The comparison that can help is the example of a bread pan that is damaged and dented. Every loaf will show those imperfections, no loaf can be made to form the perfect one it was. But no the same type of sin as those made by choices and deliberate acts done by humans. We are that far from the perfect being god intended us to be.
Sorry Terrie I am not buying it. "no man is without sin" applies to the child who is born to a Christian mother in Somalia and dies 2 days later for no water? A dent in a pan? Two types of sin? Like big and little?
Eric, maybe I didn't explain it right. Scripture shows our imperfection because of adams sin is why christ died for our sins. That is inherited sin. The only reason for the pan is because it helps people see you can't make perfect from I'mperfect.
So Terrrie are equating lack of perfection with sin?
Hi Eric. Nothing to buy , iam not selling. Read Romans 5:12 . Or all of romans 5. I found a lot of info there.
Thanks Terrie, a very good reading for today. Romans 5 is understandable about grace. So I will read it a few more times and pray for discernment on the notion of original sin. Why I wonder does Paul use "many" 17 and on.Too much for a comment.
Yes Eric, lots to read. I read all of it too. Hope you have a great day. Why say fetus. Is your baby not born yet? I have 2 disabled children. Love with all my heart. What about Paul? Many from where.
Terrie my four children are all healthy but I have two premies and one breach birth. So I question this notion of sin in the womb. It does not make sense to me. Paul seems equivical to me. He certainly does not state "original sin". Maybe later.
Hi Eric. It could be just our difference in terms of how we say something. Sometimes I think it's like how a person talks or where they are brought up. Maybe I wouldn't call it original sin either. Natural or inherited sin, and yes our imperfection.
Terrie, it is seeming to me that the translators kind of missed the mark here and got lazy with the word "sin". I do believe you and I are on the same page. (although not HP - not going to comment is killing things in Answers)
The reference for your previous question is Romans 5:19.
"We are born into sin, that's why we needed Christ's sacrifice to atone for our sin."
Amen, some may see it as a crutch but it's a crutch we all need.
Which Christ, WBA, will atone for everyone after Jesus? Isa 11:1 gives us a Rod & Branch. 11:10-12 say the Branch comes to the gentiles when Israel is restored, when will our atoner come?
Elijah A Alexander Jr - Jesus is the atoner now and forever Hebrews 7:17 "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek."
WBA, then what is the purpose of the Branch's arrival, why did Christ say the son of man would spend 3 night & 3 days in the earth Mat.12:39-40 when he didn't, why must the Branch from David' root be revealed by death & resurrection Rev 5:5&a
There is a difference between inherent sin nature and a developed sin habit. Children are innocent in the sense that they have not had the time or opportunity to actualize their sin nature, let alone turn it into habits. It's possible to have a sin nature (predisposition to building a "kingdom of self") and yet be innocent of actual sinful acts because of inexperience.
Our sin nature manifests itself more and more the older we get. As G.K. Chesterton said, "Children are innocent and so love justice. Adults are guilty and so love mercy."
But if we didn't have a sin nature as babies, where does it come from? Does it pop into being when we turn 2 ... or 13?
To say that someone is a sinner, or has a sin nature, is NOT the same thing as to say that we have a right or duty to judge or punish that person for their sin nature. We don't. That is not our job.
Even in cases where we know someone has already done something wrong, it is usually not our place to mete out punishment, unless the wrong thing is a crime under the laws of our land and we happen to be a judge or policeman. If you could travel back in time and find the child Adolf Hitler, would it be wrong to kill him? Yes, it absolutely would. If you could take the adult Hitler and put him on trial and sentence him to death for his crimes, would it be wrong? No, it would be your duty. See the difference?
So, if we look at a preemie struggling to survive, our response is, "Poor kid. She is suffering from ill health because she was born into this lousy fallen world. Let's help her. Unfortunately she is ALSO suffering from a sin nature, and if she survives this health battle, that also will become a battle for her some day. And if we are her parents, we'll need to help her with that too."
Yes you said this very well. My answer missed the question on a premies and abortion completely. Everything a have read tells me there is a difference. Sometimes I don't explain verywell.
In looking at this again I notice that you change "original" sin to "sin nature". I think that is a huge leap. Because it is in our nature does not convict us of sin. I also do not see Christ's Passion for our nature but rather for sin committed.
Original sin is a synonym for sin nature. I think the term sin nature is clearer.
One catechism says, "We are sinful because of Adam and because of what we have done." Give us long enough, and we do it.
Very well explained, you are absolutely correct!
I keep working on this and read your comment again. I like "sin nature" verbiage.I am looking at 50+ folk and noticing a dearth of sin. A change in nature perhaps? A release from bondage while in this body? There is much to learn.
Misfit where I coming from is what you can not provide my spiritual future to keep living. You are promoting your own opinion and ideas that do nothing for anyone but argue your point.
Jesus has purchased human lives to keep us living.That matters.
Hi, Remember, David said "I" was born in sin...was he speaking of himself? That takes some study. Jesus spoke about a child's innocence to His disciples in Mark 9:36-42; He was direct on their position in the Kingdom. Taught to choose right/wrong.
I personally do not believe an newborn infant is capable of sin.
However it's my understanding that "sin" is hereditary in mankind. It's in the blood.
Therefore by default sinners give birth to sinners.
(According to religious teachings).
Nevertheless most people don't lose sleep over it.
Wow! I have been wandering and pondering trying to understand all that I read seeking to reconcile everything the past 2 days. There was a lot available to read and I am still trying to reconcile it all. I have a few or more pages I have written with questions to resolve. Thanks Eric.
When I first read the question, my thought was ‘yes’. Why? What popped into my head was the penalty of sin is death. In other words if not original sin, there would not be death. From my own thinking rose many questions I sought to answer. One was the provisions (Plural) for salvation, which is a study in and of its self. As stated I am trying to reconcile all that I read. To go into all that I touched on would be lengthy. But, the result is I question original sin today and retract my earlier answer. Perhaps I am in the same boat as you?
Tim, thank you for this. It is really an interesting area of thought and prayer. I am a bit amazed at the leap that goes from Adam to my newborn. Clearly we all sin. But just as clearly a 30 week old fetus does not. So when he first breathes?
Everything dies not just humans so death could not have come to us as a penalty for sin. Even the stars in heaven and everything in the physical world dies. As I said in a previous comment, the concept of original sin is not even Bible based.
SK, the death from eating "the knowledge of good and evil" was man or "minds able to understand all things" becoming woman/human as "minds unable to understand all things" and not man's physical discarnation although it led to it.
Stella I was listening to some string theory type stuff and I walked away thinking nothing dies it only transforms.
I call it discarnation as every physical form returns at the same time of it's appearance in a civilization with another section of its own timeline being it because of karma. A raped man was/is it's own raper before or after in another cycle.
I don't believe that Elijah. But I can see the spiritual logic. Your description leaves us in the same form, just elsewhere. Why would there be more than one mankind?
There's 700 million timelines, we live 1 with minor karma with all. We experience every personality in different ways,1's a nation's president, 1's corporation's all sexual orientations and the like to experience 360 degrees of every experience.
According to the Judeo-Christian teaching "We are Born with the Stain Of Original Sin. A good question is what does this mean.
John. Are you sure that is not Catholic-Christian teachings? Even the Paul writing to Romans is vague.
But I think your question is actually more to the point. It seems it is just a concept of having a sinful nature - not born condemned.
ED, That makes sense to me since god made us minds unable to comprehend all things we are by the Flood. Sin only means "missing the mark" and being unable to comprehend all things, as man means, god intended most man of this world to be sinners.
E, it does seem in this case of original that it is like a baseline. More like a balancing of the Grace that we receive so that it is not like an auto thing but requiring an acknowledgment. Faith?
Original sin, as a biblical concept, refers to the introduction of moral and natural (gratuitous) evil into humanity as follows:
1. Humans initially had good-only (non-evil ) free will — and nature’s negatives for human life were sequestered — under God’s loving control. One necessary exception: the choice to scuttle God’s control and have evil options as well; mutual love can't be forced.
2. The first humans chose the scuttle-God’s-control option — the “I’ll-do-it-my-way-thank-you” option — and we’ve been living with moral and natural evil ever since. (God’s control over both kinds of evil was a package deal.)
.......... Though much goodness remains, and God has not totally relinquished control, evil now corrupts every human life and institution in varying degrees.
.......... Infants may not *manifest* moral evil initially, but any intellectually-honest person who’s had ‘terrible-twos’ toddlers knows that it’s implicit, not learned.
I suggest that this model fits the ‘data’ of observed moral and natural behavior.
Very interesting. Your use of the term "evil" as opposed to sin brings me to question what you think is the difference. Is evil the propensity and sin the act?
Eric, online attempts to distinguish the difference between sin and evil vary. But I'm inclined to answer your question (regarding human moral evil), "Is evil the propensity and sin the act?" in the affirmative.
Yes - I am leaning toward a concept of concupiscence. Rather Catholic, but the notion seems to ring true. This seemingly universal desire to wrest control from our God which is good and take it upon ourselves. Not really sin at all but we call it tha
There is NOTHING 'evil' about ANY of us, especially during the 'terrible-twos'. Its NATURAL for a human baby growing up to experience early ranges of contrast - just like adults do. Sin has a purpose, and it isn't evil. Wish I had more room.
Of course. "There is NOTHING 'evil' about ANY of us," not in ISIS, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, the 'Kims', common rapists, murderers, thieves, hackers, the John Gacys who torture their victims for fun, etc. They just "experience...ranges of contrast."
Thanks Joel your comments illustrate very well the difference between sin and evil. So now I think your answer exemplified evil not sin. Kind of a murky delineation. Subtle but there.
If we can't find the "good/evil" tree how can we justify the existence of either? ED, the difference is "sin" means "missing the mark" while "evil" is a judgment based on "sense perceptions" that only recognize half of the equation.
Just look around, Elijah. Do you see good and evil or not?
(Incidentally, I suspect that the "Tree" is an easily-recalled metaphor to transmit the evil/no- evil event in a dominantly oral culture — though strong literalists may disagree.)
No JL, I see man living the various emotions providing as an avenue for every life-force to experience them to become minds comprehending everything on earth, man's definition, before going to another plane to experience other things for that purpose
Yes we are born into sin:
Psalm 51:5 “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.”
Ephesians 2:3 we are all “by nature children of wrath.”
Genesis 8:21 “. . . the intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth.”
" But it fails the love test. How can a man look at a premature infant struggling to thrive and say "that child is sinful"?
We look at the weaknesses of our own children and would no doubt die for them, wouldn't we? Our understanding of love may not always line up with God's but we have to look at scripture as God's word or not, especially if the main body of scripture confirms a certain truth.
Born "into" is not "with" sin. The Bible reveals god do all things [in present tense] in Isaiah 45:7 meaning nothing is "missing the mark" except to carnal judging man. Spiritual man recognizes there's purpose for everything and seek them.
Amen! Like I keep saying, sin has a PURPOSE in our lives. Read my 1st spotlight article if you want the details of how/what/why. Nutshell: 'Bad' things INSPIRE DESIRE for good things & it is a tool 4 CREATING the Kingdom of God on Earth.
I am sorry but there is no rational mind that can leap from those 3 verses to orginal sin. Without Church doctrine - it does not stem from this. The words above say nothing of a 2 wk old child. And how about NT?
Sherrie all humans have errors some kind of way .we are not perfect .if that was true no man ,woman or child would die.people would not make mistakes, lose memory, grow old .perfection is the very opposite.
We all as humans are born with some error
Thank God you came up with scripture to convince the questioner.Because he needed the correct scripture portions.
I find it interesting that most people want to differentiate between original sin and 'really sinning' since both are supposed to lead you into hell. What difference does it make?
The truth is, we aren't born 'sinners' - we're born human. Sin, hell, death & resurrection were all ancient pagan concepts that were collected into the unifying pagan state-religion of Christianity.
Spirit of Spirit, if it be your will,
give me over to immortal birth so that I may
be born again - and the sacred
spirit may breathe in me.
Sound familiar? Its a prayer to Mithras, another 'savior' who was worshipped around the same time Christianity was being twisted with paganism. It was also very twisted with the Imperial Cult. Roman leaders basically created a religion that most every pagan across the empire could believe in - all they needed was proper instruction from popes & priests who preached from the newly-updated holy book, The Bible - or be executed, their choice.
'Sin' has a completely different purpose in our lives than most of us realize. But, the most harmful thing is how so many people embrace the ideal of being an 'unworthy sinner saved by grace' because it does two things:
1) It removes all forms of responsibility. People don't have to worry about 'sinning' because they can just ask for forgiveness as many times as they need to; and
2) Many people develop really low self-esteem issues with the whole 'unworthy sinner from day one' concept. That doesn't exactly give a kid much confidence; and it isn't great headspace to start babies off in life.
Jesus was not talking about himself as a personality when he said, "I am the way, the truth and the life" etc... He was talking about his 'Christ Consciousness'; and he was trying to teach people beyond the pagan dogmas they already knew: that they were REAL children of God just like him & how to navigate this existence.
Jesus came to 'fulfill the law'... the same law that is contained within the Torah of both Judaism & Kabbalah & both religions originating from Moses - a DIFFERENT Jewish 'law' that Rome's pagan leaders were probably not aware of to interpret Jesus' original messages correctly. Kabbalah teaches what Jesus taught: the Kingdom of God is within. There is also much controversy among Christians surrounding Paul's teachings - both of these things are something every Christian should be researching & shaking out for themseves, cuz fake news didn't just start last year.
I always find your "origination" of Christianity concept very fascinating. You make very good points regarding the whole arena of sin here. But I just feel a little off with no concept of faith and love. Justifying by intellect alone???
CM, That I give you a thumbs up for, I said something similar in https://hubpages.com/religion-philosoph … d-and-Evil & https://hubpages.com/religion-philosoph … e-Of-Jesus hubs.
Not at all, ALL religions re-connect us with our spiritual world in order to eventually lead us to the Treasure. There is an over-abundance of faith & love, just not enough room here to explain, ha!
When U reconnect with your 'Christ Consciousness' U find you're PERFECT while your soul continues to expand thru life experiences. Has anything you ever loved ever FELT 'imperfect'? Emotions R our DIRECT connection to God but most don't know it.
I recommend that readers review an article titled "Exploding the Mithras Myth." http://strangenotions.com/exploding-mithras-myth/
You would have to explode the myths of many other saviors beyond Mithras. Its a continuing denial: similar means nothing. Perhaps MLK Jr. can help: https://kinginstitute.stanford.edu/king … ristianity
Eric if he believed they where sinful and proof of that is baptizing babies then something is wrong here .he endorese the bible you read .
Well said, Catherine Mostly. Specifically like your view that each of us should be "researching & shaking out for ourselves." When enough people do that a lot of this 'original sin' rubbish will fall away.
To me God's love is unconditional. His love for each and every person doesn't change, no matter their condition. Still, if we sin in some way, and we all do, it blocks us from being able to receive God's love in proportion to the severity of what we do.
That the tendency to sin seems to leave no one untouched, and its manifestation often can be seen early in life, seems to point to us having a propensity to sin from birth, maybe one name for which could be "original sin". But if that propensity is something that God created us with, then it would be difficult to really call it sin, as God's essential nature is good. This would tend to support the idea that the "original sin" is not part of the original human nature, pointing to something going wrong at the root of human history.
Talking about the afterlife though, I don't believe that a young innocent child who died would ever be condemned to hell. While Christianity has often had a very polarized heaven or hell view of life after death, the reality is more nuanced and has to deal a lot with the heart of each person. Without going into the reasons here, I am one that believes that God's love is so eternal and unchanging that eventually all people, even those who committed the gravest crimes will be restored to the fullness of his love and grace in the afterlife.
Understand we're living on earth to experience every conceivable earthen experience in order to comprehend it eliminates any religion's notion of original sin, it is all ordained from eternity to eternity.
There is no scripture for Original sin. So if you are a Bible following Christian there is no such thing as original sin.
I cannot even remember where I got the idea? Can you?
It is dogma not scriptural. I choose to kick that dogma to the curb.
The TERM isn't in the Bible, but my first post effectively summarizes what's there: available choices (a metaphorical 'tree' of the knowledge of good and evil and the'first lobbyist's'suggestion to choose evil), the choice, and the consequences.
The TERM isn't in the Bible but the BASES are, as summarized in my original post (in non-theo language): 1. The choices (metaphorical Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and "1st lobbyist's" urgings to pick evil), 2. the decision, 3. the consequences.
Sorry friend but it effectively shows us there is not scripture to back up the notion of Original sin. It is dogma not scripture.
The scriptural PRINCIPLES are clear. Many New Testament references to the CONDITION (not called 'Original sin"; call it 'googah' if you want).
Critical. UNREALISTIC utopian, 'implicitly good' philosophies (such as in communism) lead to bad outcomes.
Joe, https://hubpages.com/religion-philosoph … d-and-Evil explains how there in no original sin but a birthing of today's civilization necessary to allow every life-force to experience every earthly life experience.
You are talking about the term original sin in scripture.The term Trinity is not mentioned n Bible.But its indirectly written the father,the son and the holy spirit. Likewise its nowhere mentioned original sin.
You said your son hasn't sinned.Answer
We do not speak 1600 King James dialects nore is the word meanings the same. Example helling potatoes has a different meaning in his time. Potatage is called red stew. Also his translation is bias to his own religion even though used global. Errors
Bible clearly says that we are all sinners by birth.No doubt in that.
I see a 4 years child,brought up by a very good christian parents.All parents teach their children good things but not bad.But still if that child wants something it cries for it.It wont stop its cry until and unless what it expects is given to it.Where did this attitude come to that child?And eve while quarreling children show the attitude of jealousy.Where did it come from?Did their parents teach them?No.Its by blood.The curse transfers from generations to generations.So is the sin.Hence all are born as sinners by birth.
So nice to hear from you and get your thoughts. Show me one verse in the Bible that can in anyway say there is original sin, please. Especially anything John of Jesus said. My son has never sinned. Period. At 7 he is sinless. That is fact.
Okay I will provide.Before that let me know what sin is according to you.
1 john 1:8
Romans 3:23 can also be referred.
Carefully read https://hubpages.com/religion-philosoph … d-and-Evil to understand every life-force has to experience ever potential life experience on earth that explains it isn't.
Pra I see absolutely no reference there to a child being born in sin. Where do you get that? And that is Paul referring to his own birth in Christ not a baby birth. Come on, please get real not dogmatic.
In genesis 18 we see about the destruction of Sodom.God says that He wants to destroy Sodom as there are no righteous.If what you are saying that children are not sinners is correct then God would have not said that Sodom has no righteous one.He woul
That is what you have? OK, you convinced me - no original sin in scripture - totally interpretation for the church or other reasons.
And why would someone stretch scripture to suggest OS - crazy.
Semi-proof that The Bible & Christianity are tainted by paganism; and that we were told the WRONG 'salvation' story about Jesus Christ: http://www.wnd.com/2016/07/proof-that-m … -paganism/
Adam & Eve began cultivating man the flood completed earth over, religions cultivate man into a certain mindset that evil, sin & the like are the tools for it. Objective observing, participation & reasoning the outcomes purposes eliminate
Well,i don't think a child just born should be considered as sinful..This is totally false
Friend you are correct in my humble understanding. I just attended church with my 7 year old. We did the confession of sins part. He just said the prayer but looked confused. My 7 year old does not sin.
Eric - You are correct. There is no such thing as original sin. All children are born innocent and pure.
Are you sure? I recommend that readers watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRvVFW85IcU
Babies wouldn't make the 'punish' choice if the option wasn't given to them & stats R not 100%. Choice exists. We aren't 'innocent' we are OLD spiritual beings born with a NEW human ego to help accomplish our intentions for this round of life.
Joel - Yes, I am quite sure! Born with the potential to commit sin is not the same as being born "with original sin".
See my A-to-Q. Biblical "Original sin" was the choice eons ago to reject God's anti-sin control. That irreversible decision affects us all. Sin *capability* was arguably there from the git-go, but was originally sequestered by God's control. No more.
we are not born technically with sin but we were born into it.says the lord are God
We are all born sinners by virtue of the sin committed by our great great grandparents, Adam and Eve.
Pretty bold statement of belief yet stated as fact. Interesting.
Adam and Eve committed no sin, they fulfilled their destiny and began this civilization too cause the metamorphosis of dividing man into multiple personalities so every life-force can experience every attribute of man before it's reversed.
There is no 'reversed' - the Kingdom of God is eternal and always moves forward as his Universe expands - even if he has to 'destroy' to do it. God neither looks back nor punishes - both are manmade concepts.
I don't think you're wrong at all.
All these times and people you quote were living and interacting in the earlier history of the Universal Church and religion.
However, if we step into our post-world-war time zone and look at the revolution that occurred in the Roman Church with the Second Vatican Council in the 1960's the concept of "original sin", "hell & damnation" are all played down to be replaced by a gentle "all-loving" God...with whom the concept of sin-before-any-knowledge-of-anything-else is really excluded from the limelight.
Sadly, the great ideas brought forth at this Council have struggled to become the day-to-day reality of some churches across the globe, some of whom have held on to the fear, guilt and damnation portrayed as being "god-like"!
I think the world would be a much happier place, less ridden with guilt and angst if we could all love a little more...and judge a little less.
I enjoyed being challenged to think by your question. Thanks for asking it!
Good point. I really don't think most Christians realize that they have so many different people within their ranks who believe so many different ways. When they realize that, I think they will be able to love more & judge less, easier.
I think you get right to the heart of it that most "other denominations", protestants cannot see. Original Sin is not scriptural it is Catholic.
Eric that is a very good question and I appreciate your expression for the love of children .
To answer your question it is simply in the words of God.
Ro 5:12 That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned—.
No human can be a man or woman first before he is a baby or infant.
But it is infant into a grown man or woman.
This scripture is definitely speaking in genetically terms of damage from Adam and Eve passed on to us all after they severed their lifeline with the Heavenly Father.
Heres how !
Gen 3:4 -5 At this the serpent said to the woman: “You certainly will not die. 5 For God knows that in the very day you eat from it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and bad.
The thought that they could be like God and not die is the lie that all effects us today.
People die even babies .
So we see the Heavenly Father did not lie .satan did.
Look at a few statistics of birth defects
Many birth defects are diagnosed even before a baby is born through prenatal tests. ... Defects that may be detected through prenatal screening include: neural tube defects (spina bifida, anencephaly) Down syndrome and other chromosome abnormalities.
Another report :
Every 4 ½ minutes, a baby is born with a birth defect in the United States. That means nearly 120,000 babies are affected by birth defects each year. Birth defects are structural changes present at birth that can affect almost any part or parts of the body (e.g., heart, brain, foot).Sep 21, 2015
This is proof its not what humans can help to do but are born into even cute babies.
It looks like you are saying birth defects are 'proof' of sin. That isn't true. The reason BOTH 'good' & 'bad' things happen to us is for the PURPOSE of 'soul expansion'. This erroneous perspective is SO harmful! READ my spolight hub, peeps!
Misfit the point that humans die period including cute adorable babies prove this is truth as written. We are all genetically born flawed.and your human refrences you have listed have no advantage over the the Heavenly Father who has always been.
The fact that we die doesn't prove anything other than we are HUMAN. We were never created to live eternal lives in a physical form. Its WHY we have a physically-based ego & eternal soul - BOTH.
Also misfit what kind of soul expantion of good and bad can an infant or fetus come to mental grisp with.
They have no mental capabilities to act on good or bad. They are genetically flawed not hard to understand.
K&T I think your NT verse does not mean that we are born with sin. Obviously that is the verse used normally. Paul or Jesus could have easily said that when we are born we are sinful.
Eric with all do respect you are comparing a 1600 translation KJV to a translation formed from Hebrew and Greek original translation. It is new based on that we speak English. If you lived in another country it would be in their language.
We are always faced with the theologian, Lexicographer, translator and publisher. And you know I do not just read one version or just one verse. I do not agree that Romans shows original sin.
Eric I rushed out the house for appointment posting comment.just realized I had the right person wrong title subject. Sorry for my error.
But I am addressing that Augustine a Catholic church father baptized babies for sin.If not he believed damn
Misfit there is no evidence that pagan was attached to Jesus in anyway. His own relative John the baptist was approved by the Heavenly Father .He baptised Jesus as the anoited of Jehovah with holy spirit.
I don't think we are born with original l sin. 'That child is sinful.' This notion is derived from the Bible.Thank you.
Eric based on these two scriptures it very clear and my last post to you.
5 Look! I was born guilty of error,
And my mother conceived me in sin.
Job 14:4 Who can produce someone clean from someone unclean? No one can!
K&T any good Jew will tell you David was born out of an adulterous relationship. Otherwise why hide him from Samuel?
God Created us by his own Image, Yes were born with the original Sin, because we human being are curious about everything, and explore our imaginations, to commit the sin itself. all of us are born to be sinner, but we have a choice, to choose the path in life, If we start a life that we can be proud of, a life that people will remember, we could cover the sin the were born with.
as human being we need to see the light, Feel the Light, follow the Light and be the light for the other who walks on the darkness.
Well done Junaid. I like to think that I run. Run toward light and away from dark. Kind of an inherent pleasure pain instinct.
That curiosity is because we are learners and not reactors. Man means mind able to understand all things which is why. As Human/woman who can't comprehend all things use are designed toms the mark to experience every man characteristic.
It is true God created us in his image. "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." WHY do BOTH us & God create evil? To INSPIRE GOOD which is the only thing that actually EXISTS.
I am looking at this from the outside, as a non-believer. If you take two children, one born to believers and one born to non-believers, the two babies are the same. Neither child has any concept of any religion or lack of a belief in a god. Children are taught any type of belief system, they are not born with any of that knowledge. So, let's hypothetically say there is a higher power, an innocent baby is born into the world already deemed a sinner? No child is a sinner, regardless of who they are born to, or under any other circumstance. There is an innocence that we quickly lose which encompasses that. Religion and children is nothing more than indoctrination. They are pushed into something they didn't get to choose. Please don't get me wrong, I believe everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, I just find it difficult to accept the fact that anyone would say a newborn is already guilty of sin.
You have spoken the truth in children are taught a belief. But we are talking deeper. An infant can not willfully sin .but as he matures the gene to error is already genectic genetically there.
It is evident in birth defects. No child did nothing
Birth defects and any sin aren't even close to being in the same ballpark. It's times like these, I'm thankful that neither myself nor my child have to worry about it.
Thank you for this thoughtful answer. But it made me think. I think a child may be born with a guilt gene.My four children all seemed early on to feel bad if they did bad.And I am not a rod guy. It just is.
I don't think it's a guilt gene per se, rather an empathetic response to disappointing a parent, sibling, friend, etc.
It seems to me more geared toward the disappointment of self. It happens too often why the parent does not care.
I agree, SW, and wrote https://hubpages.com/education/What-Is- … ristianity because of it.
Sherrie a perfect person does not age or get sick.
Childen get sick with colds and need immunizations. The law of the land even reconizes in genetically all have and error.
We all as human have a mark in our genes no getting around it.
Like so many others, K&T has been taught that 'sin' causes bad stuff to happen. It doesn't. Sin is meant to INSPIRE good via the UNIVERSAL LAW of ATTRACTION. Look it up or read my spotlight article. Its how Jesus HEALED & we can, too.
Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him. Proverbs 22:15
Man Children are born to learn, conditioning by parents, government, schools and religion indoctrinate into b believing in right and wrong that religion calls sin -missing the mark- which is required for reasoning the various outcomes for wisdom.
@ Elijah, that's true. And it teaches us to learn to be careful of the company we keep. If a person wants to remain righteous and resist sin, surround yourself with people that are a good influence, according to the ways of God (Elohim).
Ann, It's not up to us to not sin, it's destiny & where we are in our journey through earth's plain to decree what we do. 5 incarnations are required to experience the 2 sides & middle of all things as both gender before our new birth to beco
Its really amazing how effed-up so many people have the concept of 'sin'. Very few seem to realize its purpose & if you've got peeps like Elijah insisting on his erroneous interpretation of it - its no wonder why people can't understand.
CM, what authority do you have to determine what anyone say is erroneous? Unless you have the authority you should stick with the topic and not discuss your own opinion about others.
LoL! Talk about the pot calling the kettle black! Get your crap straight and up-to-date; then you'll be saying something worth reading. Talk more about dimensions & incarnations, that should help!!
In Genesis 6:5 God says" Man's thoughts are always evil" it means all human beings are born with the inbuilt tendency of committing sins. we always inherit genetically that characteristic of sins. absolutely the infants have no idea about evil or good,but it will show up when the infant step into adolescence.
Sin means only "missing the mark" which is required for reasoning to comprehend the subject matter, that's different from evil which has no concrete means of recognizing it's existence.
Elijah, I am pretty sure that there are ten words for sin in the Bible and with derivatives about 30."Missing the Mark" is one. And even that concept is vague at best.
Misfit I am not taught by human opinions but by our Heavenly Father and Jesus.
You are the one that list your own opinions and human ideas of men.
That is why you don't believe in Heaven.
Actually, I do believe in God, Heaven & Jesus - just not the same way you do. If you actually read my spotlight hub instead of assuming you know it all, you'd know that.
If we based on the bible, it will truly tells us that we are born with original sin and the only way for it to go away is to have ourselves baptized. But for me, it does matter at all, what is important is what we believe is right.
A very interesting way to look at it. Original sin goes away with Baptism?
'Baptism' was a very pagan concept when Jesus was walking this earth. Research it. All religions are stepping stones but none are 'the way' for good reason: the minds of man get in 'the way'.
God is an eternal being who cannot and will not exist in the presence of sin. God created Adam and Eve and a place for them to thrive with one and only one condition. They broke this trust and thus plunged every man, woman and child into a legacy of sin. The curse of sin and death. God was so saddened by this that he sent his only Son to redeem his creation by suffering a death considered to be the most hideous of that time.He then raised him from the dead to be the one true living savior of mankind. Now people are redeemed of their sin nature but still cannot expect to be present with God in eternity unless they first believe God did this for them and secondly to acknowledge they are a sinner and repent of their sins. Then they must accept the gift of grace and live as sin free as they can. This is the best way I can explain the answer to your question:
A child, from the womb to an age of being able to understand the plan of salvation set forth by God, is not accountable to the sin and death curse. However, when they reach the age or mental capacity where they could accept or reject this gift from God, they then are subject to the curse. So, yes, a baby is born into this world a sinner but is not subject to the curse of sin and death until he/she can understand what it is he/she needs to do to be right with God. I also believe children born with severe learning or brain defects are safe from the curse. If a person can't understand the plan of salvation, God will not hold them accountable.
I hope this answers your question.
So no original sin?
The man has sinned or the man is a sinner?
Rod, that's church's concept, you should read the Bible with understanding and that concept would change. Read my hub "understanding the knowledge of good and evil" for a starter.
Elijah, you have some OLD concepts correct, but you are not caught up with what is going on in Spirituality today. Catch up, please. You need to incorporate the Universal Law of Attraction into your theories.
Romans 5:17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift...in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
It's a big con handed down by those who wished to retain power over others. Of course no one is born in sin. "As innocent as a newborn baby," is a saying which definitely rings true to me.
For eons there have been certain people who have claimed that they "have the ear of God," so to speak, and that they are 'authorized' in some way to interpret messages from God and no one else is - under pain of punishment.
If you read the forward to George Bernard Shaw's play, 'Joan of Arc' you will read how Joan's big sin (as far as the Church was concerned) was that she had the temerity to say that she "heard God telling her what to do." That, of course, was very naughty. Only priests and such were able to do that. She committed a sin for even saying it.
The result. She was called a heretic, and burned at the stake. Then that same religion had turned around and called her a saint some six hundred years later...makes you wonder, huh?
Tom that is very wise. I am working on sermons along this line. Brutal work trying to tell a 65 year old lady that she is not a sinner. She was done with that 40 years ago. Could guilt and sin be in our DNA;-)? My son just does not sin.
This is so true. I keep saying that people don't know the purpose of 'sin' - 'they know not what they do'. That isn't what Christ's death was about; but it WAS what the pagan religions he was trying to set people free from was about. Think!
Catherine you might just find my last two sermons on sin interesting. https://hubpages.com/religion-philosoph … t-17055155
When we get conditioned to "need" sin we miss the mark.
I read about 3/4 of the way through before realizing where you're coming from: you're one of many who are grappling with the obvious conundrums of Christianity. I've been there. You really should read my entire spotlight hub instead of skimming.
yes, we need to find out what is a sin and what is not a sin. And be careful with the cons. Thank you
nobody is born with sin. in Childhood no one knows what is right and what is wrong and in this stage parents and family members play a vital role. they gave the child a right direction according to the religion. In next stage child himself analyse and act accordingly. i think the moral values from family builds the child and his activities in future.
Thank you. I worry for the child who is not surrounded by love.
That is called cultivating -disallowing some thing to have being and allowing others to be uninhibited- and is why Gen 1:24 reads "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh."
Its called, 'believing lies & proliferating them'. If Christians really want answers to this question, they need to return to the earliest days of Christianity's start. But, why should they when there are these beautiful lies to believe?
The disobedience of Adam effected all of created nature because Adam was the rightful Prince & Steward of Creation. The tear in the fabric of his relationship with God rent all that Adam was responsible over. For generations thereafter both Man, Beasts & vegetation experiences corruption, suffering, sorrow and death. Only Adam & Eva are guilty of their own disobedience & distancing themselves from God. Yet it has had a cosmic result as already mentions; we Orthodox Christians call this The Ancestral Curse. The new born child is born in the flesh but its spirit is dormant as if dead to itself. Nowhere does such a child possess any guilt for any act whatsoever. Still the child is subject to the fallen human condition known as the Ancestral Curse. In order that all-Creation may be restored Adam or a Man must set back the Curse by restoring our authentic relationship with God. Who in all the generations of humanity was worthy of such a task? No one! For this reason and our of Love for His Creation the Divine Logos became the incarnate God/Man of the pure ever-Virgin who named her son, God's Son, Yeshua, Jesus (saviour). It was Jesus the Christ who --being the prototype of Adam-- defeated the negating spirits of evil and the power of nothingness that is death. Since it were the demons, the fallen spirits who in their pride and jealousy towards Adam sought Man's downfall.
One might ask, "Why then are we still under the Ancestral Curse?" As I said, the child's spirit is born "dead". This period in salvation history allows us all to Willing choose what kind of existence we want for ourselves. The limited pleasurable yet dead-end road of our own ways? Or the Way of God's Love through an ascetic self-denying life that leads us to immortality with God? Why the latter? Because it emulates most closely the Life of Christ so that we become co-workers with Christ in mending the world in hope of becoming partakers of divine nature and dwell among the Blessed. But first to choose The Way of Christ our "dead" spirit must be "born again" by water & holy Spirit through Holy Baptism & Chrismation. We can effect nothing without God's help. By this we enter into Christ & Christ into us enlivening our soul with the power of the Holy Spirit.
Throughout the history of the Church there have been many persons who have realized a true Life in Christ; such as Seraphim of Sarov and Symeon the New Theologian to name two out millions of saints in the Church's memory. It is however sad & unfortunate that too many others take their place within the Church for granted treating it like any other "membership" instead of being an integral part of the Mystical Body of Christ.
Monk Fr. Symeon
I really like this answer. I read it a few times.In doing so I notice a rather clear of the concept of the supernatural. Was this intentional? We focus on what man must do and leave out what God can do?
DH, Adam didn't disobey, he made the choice with a death penalty, not discarnate. His death, the inability to comprehend things, he didn't discarnate the day he ate it but he become ashamed and afraid caused by his ignorance and judging.
That makes sense. The judgment to disobey is nothing like our judgment of ourselves for disobeying. Huberus or not?
I will not disrespect you delusion. I encourage yo to visit the Russian Orthodox Cathedral of St John the Baptist there in DC
No! To me the word "sin" is meaningless. There is crime, there is dishonesty, , etc., but there is no sin.
Such a beautiful name. Hello Catherine. Bad is Bad. My friends do not commit sin. But the notion of missing the mark stands true. Let us try not to.
Actually, even 'missing the mark' is inaccurate. From our human perspective there is crime & sin; but God is beyond all-forgiving & all-knowing, he/she is all-understanding & knows why we do every little thing.
No sir. Children (infants) and those who are not aware of doing wrong (which is in teaching-right or wrong from someone), are innocent until they realize they must repent. Remember also Ezekiel 18:19-20. The son is not responsible for the father's sin and visa-versa....so even if the son is righteous, he cannot save the father who does not repent. God's love IS conditional - otherwise there would not have been a price paid.
Definitely. Which is why people who believe Christ's purpose was different; and don't believe he died for the imposed pagan purpose of 'washing away sins' don't have to worry about eternity. Kabbalah is the law J came to fulfil. Look it up.
SoS I have been thinking of this and the more I do the more I like it.
We are born in sin. Because of Adam and Eve we have the sin nature, but once you come to Christ, you are born anew. Behold the old is past and the new is here.
I don't believe people abort because they think the baby is sinful; those involved in the sinful act should as well follow the baby to the grave then.
So you are saying that a one year old child has a sin nature? Because he was born he is sinful?
Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
So that was our past, but once we come into Christ, we no longer have that sin nature, it was all wiped away by the every saving and ever pure blood of Jesus
You are suggesting that that verse means my infant child is a sinner after Christ came? Sorry but that verse does not say that, argue all you want it just does not. Who is the Psalm directed at?
HA,"The Mark" of sex is indulge for reproduction only, man's sex for pleasure is sin's "missing the mark" and the wisdom of that statement. The mark that brings understanding is missed by man's exalting themselves above ecological living.
That verse backs up that God is both 'the good' & 'the bad' in this world - there is no 'sin' aside from man's dogma. Pleasure in sex is as much of God as conception, & orgasm is a reminder of our connection to our Source.
What is sin in the first place? Sin is doing something God has forbidden to do. Being born is not in our hand so it can not be a sin. And no Adam and Eve did not seal a sin deal 'cause they didn't have to. With God your sins get wiped out when you repent with a true heart, so did they.
Per Gen. 3:17, Ex. 3:14 & Isa. 45:7, God never forbid but allowed. Sin means "miss the mark" and life is for learning so we can't learn if they don't err for the purpose of reasoning for understanding purposes. It's sin's purpose, provoke reasoni
"God has forbidden to do" Pretty straight forward.
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