1. God told Moses to sacrifice the first born of humans and animals to him.
1The Lord said to Moses:
2Consecrate to me all the firstborn; whatever is the first to open the womb among the Israelites, of human beings and animals, is mine. (Gen. 13:1-2)
The association of humans with animals makes it clear that these firstborn humans are not being baptized or inducted into the priesthood.
2. To commemorate their liberation from Egypt, Moses told the people to remember this day. -This was the motive behind the sacrificial killings.
3And Moses said to the people, "Remember this day, in which you came out from Egypt, out of the house of bondage, for by strength of hand the LORD brought you out from this place; no leavened bread shall be eaten. (Gen. 13:3)
3. Set apart to the Lord, the firstborn of livestock and your firstborn sons for redemption. When your child asks, what does it mean? You tell them it was because of Pharaoh's stubbornness, God killed the firstborn in Egypt. Therefore I sacrifice to the Lord my firstborn son for redemption.
Some of us also eat shrimp and get tattoos. What's your point?
And you are comparing getting a tattoo to killing your first born, how?
Well, there's a commandment that says "Don't get tattooed," and oanother that says "Don't eat shrimp," and you just posted a commandment that you interpret as "God says you have to kill your firstborn."
I thought you knew that we were talking about biblical commandments. You started the discussion, after all.
I think his point is - no Christians actually follow the bible. Which makes it rather hard to stomach the constant barrage of "righteousness."
I suppose you are right. One sin will get you into hell as well as another. A tattoo is obviously as sinful as not killing your own kids. I can see how you might believe that.
So when did Jesus tell you you could get tattoos and stop sacrificing your first born? You are after all just a sect of Jews.
"A tattoo is obviously as sinful as not killing your own kids. I can see how you might believe that."
Well, someone might believe that, but I don't. There's also a commandment that says that when two guys have sex we're supposed to stone them both to death. I'm not going to do that any more than I'm going to forgo eating delicious delicious shrimp or kill my firstborn son.
"So when did Jesus tell you you could get tattoos and stop sacrificing your first born?"
He didn't. But he did tell us that we'd be forgiven for not being able to follow all the commandments (and most people can't, whether they want to or not). The forgiveness is what's key.
You seem to think that Christianity is ridiculous. That's cool. Certain Christians sometimes make the rest of us look like jerks by association. But what can you do? Me, I try to oppose the jerks who try to hurt others using Jesus as the excuse for their sadism. Much the same way a lot of Christians, members of other faiths, and non-theists do.
Or were you hoping that I'd get all angry at you for pointing out inconsistencies in the Bible? Dude, I know they're there. I'm not one of the "inerrant literal word of God" crowd. But since none of them seem to be around, if you want, I can get all indignant and holier-than-thou, and tell you you're going to Hell unless you see the light, but I still love you. Would that be a better fit for the vision you have of Christians?
Interesting isn't it? People like to choose what to believe and what to ignore in the bible. I think Abraham was supposed to sacrifice Jacob to god and he was about to kill the boy until god said it was all a test to see if Abraham really loved god. There are a few problems with this story. First why would god need a sacrifice? Secondly if god is all knowing why would he need to test someone? Seems like god has some insecurity issues if he has to test people by making them kill their sons. Third, imagine how scarring that would be to a child when his own father tried to kill him. Think about it.
I have thought about it. A surefire cure for Theism is to read the bible. None of these guys bother. They call themselves "Christian," ignore the bits they don't like and do as they please, secure in the knowledge that every one else is the sinner.
This is why it causes so many conflicts.
Ignorance causes conflicts, and you have the understanding of a nit.
isaac, not jacob. it seems you are very familiar of the scriptures.
God traded Moses the Firstborn for the Levites and some cash in Numbers 3:44-48. The money, 5 sheckels for each of the 273 that was left over went to Aaron and his sons.
Christians have never sacrificed their firstborn. Your question is ludicrous, besides being worded badly. What about NEW testament don't you understand. The event you are fixating on was even before the foundation of Israel, before Moses. You look back too much, you might suffer the same fate as Lot's wife.
How can it be before Moses when it is directed to him? Are you sure you read the script?
Aren't you referring to Abraham? Before Moses.
No. I wasn't. Read the first post in the thread.
When did Jesus tell us to stop sacrificing our kids? I can't find that passage in the NT.
Where in the world are you reading ? Name the passage chap and verse.
Read the first post in this thread.
Gen 13:1-2 says this: "And ABRAM (Abraham) went up out of Egypt, and his wife, and all that he had and Lot went with him into the south
And ABRAM was very rich with cattle, silver, and gold." That's it NOT Moses, Abram(Abraham) This doesn't say anything like what you are claiming. You better toss out the book you are reading, because it is obviously NOT the bible.
Exodus is about Moses.
Exodus 13 sorry. my mistake
1And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2Sanctify unto me all the firstborn, whatsoever openeth the womb among the children of Israel, both of man and of beast: it is mine.
3And Moses said unto the people, Remember this day, in which ye came out from Egypt, out of the house of bondage; for by strength of hand the LORD brought you out from this place: there shall no leavened bread be eaten.
because they'd end up in jail! take andrea yates - she 'sacrificed' all her children because she thought they had the devil in them
She was deceived from within her own psyche. Son Of Sam Complex "My neighbor's dog told me to do it." Christians call it Lying Spirits. Exactly what I've been talking about all along.
that's why I don't believe in all the demon possession stuff - I reakon it's their own head
It is the internal armageddon. Darkness or evil comes from the human mind. So does light and goodness. We are our own demons, and we are our own messiah. We can heal ourselves. It is all locked in the sub-conscious. It is a personal battle that she lost miserably. Modern culture knows very little about this. They're so hung up on Freud and Jung that they can't see that this is our nature, and we need to understand what is going on in our own brains. This is the path to our future.
So Abraham was a schizo child murderer?
Sure. So what are you saying?
Its nice to see you conversing instead of spamming the page with bible verses for a change.
It does mean sacrifice. What were they going to do with the animals? Same as the first born kids. It means kill them. Why are you so shocked?
Why do you twist what is written to mean something other than what it says? Consecrate means to set aside for service or dedicate to God.
I think SirDent is right; as Jesus' grandmother set aside Mary for the service of the Creator-God or dedicated her for the service of the Creator-God; this seem to be reasonable.
Actually I think a couple of people have been right. In the Hebrew Torah it says sanctify, not consecrate. However, having now read it in the Hebrew Torah rather than the Christian bible it is a little clearer to me.
God does tell Moses that the first born sons were his and were to be sacrificed. But Moses says he redeemed his sons. So that seems to mean that he substituted something for his son or payed something so his son would not be killed.
However it never says god tells them to do that, though I suppose it is assumed. What god is said to have told Moses is very clear. He killed the first born of the Egyptians and the price for that was the first born of the Jews.
It is again the scribes; the Creator-God never tells his prophets messenger to kill any person of any nation
Well of course I agree with you, Paar. I don't think god told anyone anything. I think Moses said he did so he would have control over his tribe. In fact I think everything said in the bible attributed to what god said is just the thoughts of the people who were telling, and then later on, writing the stories.
I don't think Moses ever wanted to rule over his tribe; he just wanted that they escape persecution at hands of Pharaoh.
[20:18] ‘And what is that in thy right hand, O Moses?’
[20:19] He replied, ‘This is my rod, I lean on it, and beat down therewith leaves for my sheep, and I have also other uses for it.’
[20:20] He said, ‘Cast it down, O Moses.’
[20:21] So he cast it down, and behold! it was a serpent running.
[20:22] God said, ‘Catch hold of it, and fear not. We shall restore it to its former condition.
[20:23] ‘And draw thy hand close under thy armpit. It shall come forth white, without any disease — another Sign,
[20:24] ‘That We may show thee some of Our greater Signs.
[20:25] ‘Go thou to Pharaoh; he has indeed exceeded all bounds.’
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … p;verse=24
sacrifice don't always mean killing, brian. it could mean other faith and love-driven efforts. some kings of israel didn't even receive god's favor when they acted like the other nations, bowing down to idols, sacrificing children, doing sex in front of idols as part of religious rituals, etc.
haven't you done any sacrifice for your loved ones mark? that love-driven thing is what i mean.
Sacrificing my loved ones is not something I would do unless there was some benefit to another loved one that I valued more. Fortunately - I have never been faced with that choice.
Have you even read this book? You have twisted "sacrificing children" into "sacrificing yourself for them."
you're not getting the point. love-driven sacrifice can be small things such as giving up the remote control of the television so your kid can watch disney channel, and other greater sacrifices... not killing someone or getting yourself killed for the sake of someone. sacrificing children or killing them as sacrificial offering to any god is hard for me to even think.
Then you have not read this book? As I thought. It is full of God murdering children and telling people to murder their own children. I suggest you go read it so you know what you are talking about.
haven't read that book. i don't even watch dreadful stories of men killing men; i don't even wanna see their trailers. they are too disgusting.
Odd you have an opinion on what the book means to say then. Why do you feel qualified to express an opinion on something you have not read?
because i haven't read sacrificing children as approved by god in the bible. maybe the bible you were reading is different from what i'm reading.
No - there is plenty of sacrificing in the bible. Didn't god sacrifice His only son? Dear me.
Guess you just read the Cliff notes same as all the other Christians.
This is why your religion causes so many conflicts.
"This is why your religion causes so many conflicts."
no. my religion doesn't go to war. many of us are imprisoned, brought before the judges, and even put to death because we refuse to join the military, get armed, and go to war. those religious leaders even raise their arms against us during our peaceful gatherings. we suffer the same things also for not supporting the perverted league of governments and politicians. despite all that, we don't fight back with arms, but take our sentiments and arguments before the courts.
blame all those conflicts to religious leaders who preach hatred and war, not the once who uphold peace. those priests who pray to their god that their country's army win the war, while another priest from the same religious group in a different country pray to their god to also win the war... sending their own religious members to fight and kill each other.
because i haven't read sacrificing children as approved by god in the bible. maybe the bible you were reading is different from what i'm reading.
-- No - there is plenty of sacrificing in the bible. Didn't god sacrifice His only son? Dear me.
you just answered this question with this statement of yours..
--- Sacrificing my loved ones is not something I would do unless there was some benefit to another loved one that I valued more.
"Guess you just read the Cliff notes same as all the other Christians."
no. i spent 10 years studying the bible before even deciding to join a religion. after years in that religion, i still continue to read and study the bible.
i accept the fact that i don't fully understand the deep things of god, that is why i will keep digging those things to continuously prove to myself that believing in god is rational, or until i prove myself wrong.
i respect your reasoning mark, and it's nice exchanging arguments with you.
That is pretty much the same process cranks and crackpots use when they embrace their pet theories. It is essentially working the scientific process in reverse.
Come to an extraordinary conclusion and then pick and choose that which will prop up the conclusion.
You haven't read the whole book have you.
Though the first born children were belonged to God this did not mean they were to be sacrificed. God tells Israel that they were to be redeemed by substitution of an animal sacrifice. Surely you can't be so stupid to believe God expected Israel to kill their first born children in sacrifice or is this some innate post designed to wind people up?
When God told Abram to sacrifice his son Jacob, God had no intention that Abram should carry it through, hence He provide a substitute ram. What was it all about? It was prophetic. By the terns if the covenant between God and Abram God was binding Himself to sacrifice His son for mankind. If Abram was prepared to sacrifice Jacob for God then God was bound to sacrifice His son for Abram's descendants.
I've read the whole book in several different versions at one time or another. I now try to read the Jewish Torah instead to get some clarification of the sloppy job the English Christian translators have done.
But you are right, as I said in a previous post. While it is clear that god tells Moses that the first born of Israel are to be sacrificed, Moses tells us they were redeemed, probably meaning a lamb or what ever was sacrificed in their place.
But I do not see where god tells them to do that, only where Moses says that's what they are doing.
However, god doesn't seem to mind human sacrifice as is shown in several verses: Ezek. 20
25Moreover I gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not have life;
26and I defiled them through their very gifts in making them offer by fire all their first-born, that I might horrify them; I did it that they might know that I am the LORD.
Nice god you have.
You must be deliberately not understanding this. Read the whole of Ezekiel 20 and you will see that God is speaking about Israel's following after pagan practices for generation after generation which included child sacrifice to these pagan God's, a total abomination to Him. By the time He gets to 25 & 26 He has had enough and let's them get on with it, leaving them in their depravity that they might wake up to the horrors of it all. These child sacrifices were not to God but to pagan idols.
Look up 2 Chronicles 28 & 33 and you will see that God's anger was against those who practice child sacrifice.
I can't believe I'm even responding here. You post must be a wind up surely as nobody could be so wilfully blind.
Come on. This book is one of the most obscure books ever written. You guys have been fighting about it since it was written. You are still fighting over what your Invisible Super Being was supposed to have said today - even though no one can see or hear it.
Talk about willfully blind.
Sorry. But he claims responsibility for it. Are you calling your god a liar?
Did Moses or Aaron kill their firstborn son or daughter?
They never did.
Did Jesus kill his first born son or daughter?
Christians believe Jesus never married.
Do you mean God's instruction were not for Moses, Aaron and Jesus?
Hey, you said it.
Following is the definition of the word consecrated, the Hebrew word Qadash, used in Genesis 13:
to consecrate, sanctify, prepare, dedicate, be hallowed, be holy, be sanctified, be separate
to be set apart, be consecrated
to be hallowed
to show oneself sacred or majestic
to be honoured, be treated as sacred
to be holy
to set apart as sacred, consecrate, dedicate
to observe as holy, keep sacred
to honour as sacred, hallow
to be consecrated
to set apart, devote, consecrate
to regard or treat as sacred or hallow
to keep oneself apart or separate
to cause Himself to be hallowed (of God)
to be observed as holy
to consecrate oneself
Check out these links to the Interlinear Bible. One is for the chapter of Exodus 13 and the other is the definition of the word Qadash, you find above. Hope this helps clarify your confusion on this matter.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/interlin … &t=kjv
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons … adash.html
God, don't remind some of the fundies on here, they might just do it to get closer to heaven!
This has depth, many spiritual context cannot be taken literary.
I would say it means that as long as one has any attachment then they cannot have god.The first born is very often the most precious for the parents,the biggest attachment.
One needs to drop all attachments for God, as long as you desire something he will not stop you.
[3:93] Never shall you attain to righteousness unless you spend out of that which you love; and whatever you spend, Allah surely knows it well.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … p;verse=92
Read it Paarsurrey, too many passages of praise with few of wisdom.
I met someone in Pune who says the copy of the Quran his ancestors left behind is different from the present one, has been altered a lot. Something I have been saying all along.
Wow. Hate your kid so you can love god. Sounds a bit sick
First of all man never sacrificed the children ever to God. God requested the first born of animals like sheep or goat or cattle but never human. Secondly you didn't read the Bible correctly and you quoted it wrongly.
If Christians sacrificied their firstborn then I wouldn't be here to write my opinion. lolololo !
This is what happens when someone takes someone else's word for what is written. Read it, then you'll know what's in it.
so when did god tell them they could stop killing the first born?
After kiling Pharaoh's firstborn. I often wonder why all of us have these discussions when the information is on the Internet. Aahhhh that's right debate!
It is a well known fact that human sacrifice was practiced in different cultures at different times in history. As near as I know, Abraham was stopped by God from sacrificing his son. END of story. Abraham lived several generations before Moses. Pharoah's firstborn was killed by the hand of God to convince Pharoah to let the Israelites go free. That concludes this service on this subject. Next Sunday, we'll discuss when it was that we started wearing fig leaves and why we're not doing it anymore.
Well, if you're on that topic, aboriginal tribes dont seem to be ashamed of being naked. Neither do many people from third world countries.
Dont you think it a little odd that the bible, from the very beginning, contains a very western concept of wearing clothes?
I take it from your little pic that you are female. You were safe. Only males got sacrificed. God didn't want girls.
Why don't Christians still sacrifice their first born?
I think it is the scribes; the Creator-God never said to anybody to kill first born or even second or third etc born humans.
Moses, Aaron, Mary and Jesus did not kill their any-number of human born. Did they?
To put it more simply, Samsons mother sacriiced him unto the Lord. sacriice doesn't necessarily imply death. Does it?
Consecrate means 'to make sacred'
I think he would have preferred a nice mince pie and a glass of sherry, just like Santa!
or my Pedro Martinez (neighborhood illegal immigrant whom I pay $5 to cut my 3 acre field)
What does the poor buggar have to cut it with?
I'm not a micro manager... i give him the task and let him figure it out and do it while i work on my hubs
The bible is fun to read, I read new and old testaments again at my last stint in hospital.
Any Christian who denies picking and choosing is in deep denial.
The fact is that the bible is simply outdated in todays world, it is impossible to live sin-free.
As to the new testament superceeding the old testament.. All Jesus talks about is how you should worship God, not him. He even talks about worshiping false idols, if you worship Jesus rather than God you are automatically worshiping a false idol, commiting the worst sin possible.
Least thats how it seems to me. (As to Jesus and God being one and the same, I have no idea how anyone who has read the bible can take that one seriously).
"For God loved the world so much that he gave his onlybegotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life." John 3:16
When you question Christians sacrificing their first-born, you're talking about the Mosaic Law. When Jesus Christ came to earth that ended and it became the Messianic Law. He was sacrificed for mankind, there isn't a need to sacrifice first borns.
Why is there a need to sacrifice ANYONE?
I can forgive people that I dont love without them sacrificing someone for me. Why can't an ALL LOVING god do that?
In order for him to forgive you, someone that he loves has to die for you?
No offence but that is such baloney it is laughable.
No he is giving you the freedom of desires, the god within you creates desires, these thoughts manifest in this existence.
Its a game you are playing with yourself .You are god and being one with the light is pure ecstasy , supreme bliss but as long as you desire it will manifest.
So it basically means ability to detach and not kill.
Your understanding is rather limited to the physical plane Mo.
One day you may understand - but - not yet, not yet.
What are you talking about? I adressed that post to a christian. Clearly you are not one so my post is as totally irrelevant to you as your answer is to me.
I love the philosophy of Jesus, totally agree with him, giving you an answer.
Maybe if you understood it you wouldn't say it's baloney or find it laughable.
In order to right a wrong something has to be done. Adam who was perfect sinned; they felt it was better for to act INDEPENDENTLY instead of obeying Jehovah God who was and is the Sovereign Ruler. How would you feel if your children did that to you?
Since they were sentenced to old age, illness and death Jehovah sent Jesus Christ to die for mankind; Jesus was perfect like Adam and he obeyed his Father; Adam could've done the same thing but he chose not to.
"That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned." Romans 5:12
All of us benefit from his sacrifice even those that think it's baloney and laugh and those that take it to heart and understand the meaning behind it.
I understand the concept of sacrifice thank you very much, it is not rocket science.
Well, If they didnt know what right or wrong was (like adam and eve before they ate from the tree of KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL) then it wouldnt bother me atall since they dont know any better.
Are you actually going to answer the question how someone dying for SOMEONE ELSES wrong doing can make anything right? Would you set a murderer free if the most righteous person in the country sacrificed his life to set him free? What a ridiculous concept.
What a load of archaic crap. Death does not make anything ok.
How do I benefit? I dont have eternal life now do I? I still have the same punishment of death and illness because of what ADAM did.
This is the biggest load of ridiculous nonsense that ever spread the planet and I am embarassed to be of the same species as someone who believes that someone dying makes wrongs, right
even though the death of jesus did NOTHING.
We still die.
First of all you don't have to get so defensive and angry. You're embarrassed to be of the same species? Excuse me I didn't mean to make you so angry to the point that you actually have to insult someone with your words.
You still die because you're imperfect, that's why. Apparently you didn't read the scripture right or choose to retaliate like you're doing.
You don't have eternal life now but you will because of the sacrifice, you have the same punishment like Adam because everyone after him received the same thing, and if you want to blame anyone blame Satan; he's the God of this system of things and that's why we age, get sick and die.
Right, right, because punishing ME for something that someone ELSE did is perfectly acceptable.
You cant even see how sick and unjust the whole concept is.
As for you impying that I cant understand the simple notion of sacrifice, thats pretty much an insult to my intelligence.
Did you forget everything you said? Why don't you go back and read what you wrote; you insulted me without evening knowing me.
It's very easy to offend a person behind a computer, but people forget that a computer doesn't give them the right to say whatever they want to another human being.
I'm sorry you feel the way you do, however I will not do this back and forth knowing how you feel; I have stated my case and wish you well.
I insulted you? So? What did you infer when you said I dont understand the simple concept of sacrifice?
Of course you will focus on this rather then the topic at hand which is why the hell should I be punished for what adam did and how the hell is that just?
Dont worry, I dont expect you understand.....
Hey Slarty...there are Christians on the planet...Get over it!
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