Do you believe that making this world a better place by the life they live is something that could be considered a worthwhile pursuit by atheists and theists alike? How do these two groups differ in the practice of that pursuit? Is the difference if any explainable by their belief or non-belief?
Most Atheists that I know or have met, are very good people and would probably agree that making the world a better place through how they live their lives, is a good idea.
I don't think your belief or non-belief in a higher power makes any difference. It's a personal thing.
I am confused on what parties are believers and non Believers. I need to address to my pastor !
Living a good life is something people of all walks of life are concerned about. Why you even have to ask whether or not atheists can agree to this is beyond me.
Religions are a way of approaching the divine and the moral, but that doesn't mean they are the only way. If the only reason a person follows a faith or a god is to have someone tell them how to be good, then they aren't actually good themselves, are they? There has to be something more - the love of God, for instance - that draws people to faith.
If theists stopped worrying about God so much and helped out the Earth. If the atheists quit ridiculing the believers then something might actually get accomplished.
One would obviously follow the other, however it most likely won't happen due to the believers religious convictions of hating mankind due to sin and obedience to invisible gods. As long as those convictions stay true, mankind will always be on the precipice of extinction.
Ah Beezeldad, being quite the pessimist, eh? Don't you think it's far more probable that humanity outgrows its own ignorance? My all embracing optimism only allows me to see a future where we all get along and sing campfire songs. Now I'm not deluded in the fact that the current picture of the Earth is a far sadder and more tragic story. The passage of time will create a species with more of our good qualities and less of our faults.
Quite the contrary, actually.
Not if religions stay the same as they are today.
And yet, after centuries and centuries, mankind is still being lead around by religious doctrines of fantasy and delusion. Not much has changed.
AND improving their neighborhoods ,communities ,towns,and cities with compassion, service of loving help-often making huge differences for families and individuals.
Many do not seek recognition,and I wish you could see them faithfully helping out fellow human beings.
I remember years ago working in this cafe ,that shared the same building of this church and over time I got to know many of the church people involved in ministries - Christian workers,single mums, ex drug/alcoholics, mental health etc.
They all drank coffee together ,ate lunch then listened to one another.
That picture was like many all over the world ,that is the real truth Beezle
Real people helping real people and not pointing fingers at one another ,mocking or causing discord.
None of that has anything to do with your faith. You see mankind as evil and sinful while I see it as compassionate and altruistic. Your examples are hogwash in light of your beliefs.
The cemeteries are filled with the truth of your religion.
Exactly, people, not religions.
You dont need faith to be a good person, there are many good people in our world.
For me serving others is a result of my faith.
The cemetaries are filled with 'dead' people
True, but faith will make good people commit evil acts, as history has shown.
That's very unfortunate that you needed a religion to show you how to help others. Why couldn't you figure that out on your own?
I did both ,but the difference now is I know why it all makes sense
We were created to serve (and worship ,and love ,and live life in all its entirety!)...
Faith will not make you commit evil !! but a deluded mind will.
Faith in oneself won't make you commit evil. Faith in a delusion? Does in fact make people commit evil.
Therefore its a delusion that creates the problem.
Not Faith in itself
Denial is always the first defense. Not totally shocking.
So denial (to you) is now disagreement?
Cags your answer is predictable ,though not correct.
The sky is blue
The sky is green
Guess what the sky is still a sky
Come Now, Ray, don't be so presumptuous, given your expressions regarding the self and the applications of 'batteries not included' (err, no gods-required), that you would have rights on explaining what real faith is, with or without a theological hardhat!
Sigh. Apathy is just as equally engulfed in denial and certainly anarchy drowning in it.
What self-ists and others deem as faith is not faith at all. My proof? Look around.
James, faith has many different definitions. That's the problem. The only real faith is oneself. No other faith actually required.
Self pride is selfish.
Self comes first and must be served according to self.
Faith is 'things hoped for-unseen!
So having faith is ones self is a nice way of saying
I care about ME.
Lets talk about ME
I am ME
Everything must matter and make sense to ME
Since you are talking to me, I must take your insinuation that I quit learning? And, you obviously, lack understanding of me. Again, nothing new.
Look Cags you play tit for tat ,then get all indignant!
Not very mature now is it.
Perhaps if you just would state your comments without being a smartass ,( you know the lil digs at the end) then I will show manners,likewise) thankyou.
Manners? I have manners, for those who I respect and deserve that respect. Apparently, if you see that I have no manners, then you now have your answer on why you see that I have no manners with regards to you.
Tit for tat? It's the only game you know how to play. Too bad, you see life as a game.
If the only 'real' faith is oneself humanity has definitely come to its end. Again, the proof is everywhere, in nearly every corner of the planet...
For the sake of humanity, I hope you are very wrong...
But, of this I am certain: The faith you believe is real is going to be the final 'fig leaf', the undoing of everything humanity has striven for over the last x-thousand years, because it is the only faith people understand. Thanks to religion screwing it up and science the same.
I'll agree, both science and religion have done their own share of damage. But, it will not cost human civilization, destruction of the species. Even with that said, it might result in a huge de-population of the world, but not extinction.
Well, if science and religion -the leaders of this new found faith are in control of human destiny, for any much longer, there will be an extinction and not just a reduction.
Heck, they won't even have to wipe out other humans to make it happen, just keep killing the environment; sucking the petrol pockets out of the planet. With that cushion gone, the plates will keep making massive shifts, causing hundreds of catastrophes. but, if that doesn't work, be certain over-the-top hedonism and big pharma will finish off the rest. All this by faith in the self ???
Not true. It comes from a false faith in science and religion. A balance that is not yet found and cannot be found. Therefore, chasing an illusion comes to mind.
Faith in oneself, to discern truth from knowledge and experiences learned, is the wisdom of life.
knowledge and experience are the by-products, certainly, of the same exact illusion. The same rootstock, the self as individual or the self as collective. Either way, self loses in the end --either by death or by Life (note capital L).
Created to serve gods, yes, I know. For the weak and simple minded who are unable to think for themselves, that would be their reason for living.
They are one and the same.
I'll agree, both science and religion have done their own share of damage. But, it will not cost human civilization, destruction of the species. Even with that said, it might result in a huge de-population of the world, but not extinction
I much more perfer your veiw than our World ending in 2012.
Do you really think that all religious people are hateful and intolerant? Do I strike you being like that? I kind of admire your passion and gall. But is what you say real or are you playing devil's advocate?
I am despised and considered evil and sinful, running with the devil, so to speak. Not a moral bone in my body, no purpose in life whatsoever other than to commit atrocities. I will burn for an eternity while underworld ghouls snap and growl at my nether regions.
That would pass as hateful and intolerant, don't you think?
You've already attacked me personally several times and have put words in my mouth, too. Your religion teaches you to despise non-believers and those who don't share your faith.
Shouldn't you be following your gods word?
I don't despise you. How could I?
You've got this all wrong. 'Love thy neighbour as thyself' is what I've been taught. I love to dive into a lively debate. You're no different from anyone else as far as I am concerned. We're all in this world together, muddling though, looking for answers.
Us Catholics are far too busy beating ourselves up to be worrying who else is getting it wrong. Now you've made me feel guilty that I've attacked you.
I don't know if you’re asking the cat or the brains or me above this post this question.
I find myself no better or worse than everyone else, I already know I have not harmed and love the whole world as my family. Is it possible for Christians to share middle grounds with me when they are overly righteousness and over power other groups and people? Do Christian Lack the respect for other ways of thinking or do not live for today rather than live for that Extreme happiness place in heaven..
From an overly jealous God, how can he respect others equally.based his only narrow path. I wonder how much hateful and intolerant Christian must have towards me without all the over rewarding or overly punished on earth if I don't follow.
You said we should stop worrying about God? Really? That means stop trying to live a life that honors God. That's the first wrong move humans have done and look at all the chaos because of the lack of honoring and reverential fear of towards God has brought us to.
So are we to love sin more than God to our own demise? We as a whole don't honor our parents anymore either and look at the broken families and rebellious kids sining against there parents- and what to there own demise because a lot of them die in disobedience from there bad choices! I am relating this to dishonoring your heavenly father- God.
How miserable do we have to become to realize we actually need God and to call on Him and repent-turn from our wicked ways that have and are continuing to cause are own problems.
Duet 28 tells us what is going to happen to those who honor God and those that don't-sowing and reaping my dear is what it is called. Honor and serve God and he will bless your life, don't than don't complain when it gets so hard because you refused to let God help you!
The goal to be accomplished is to spread the love of Jesus, the gospel of Jesus to a dying world not to help the earth but the people on earth which in turn will effect the earth. Sin and lack of the love and respect for God is how and why this earth is in it's state of getting worse and worse.
God is the one that we go to for change and Jesus died so we all can have the same right & so we can approach God without our sins getting in the way.
With God all things are possible and without God all evil is possible and it would run it's course leaving us all without hope, evil upon, evil. God is the one that saves us from self destruction and leads us into the truth that will set us free. God answers us when we refuse to give up and bow down to sin- without faith it is impossible to please God. we have to believe and expect that he will help us and that God does reward us for trusting him & and consistently seeking His will and plan! What God promises he does!
Now here's something that would be helpful to agree on and that would truly change us!
God bless you
yes, I think both groups should follow bettering life for everyone, indeed many people from every religion/non-religion do try to make life better for others.
Religion both helps and interferes with this.
oh ya baby21um .... eh....uhg.....oh..yes...yes...yes
I feel that every person on the planet would agree to doing what they can to make the earth, especially where they live a better place to live. One would have to be totally radically nuts not to want that.
For humanity to achieve this, they must abandon everything they have ever come to believe or disbelieve; abandon the concepts of good and evil; the knowledge of what is good versus what is not. If one agrees with the text, humanism IS the root of the entire problem...
I am a believer and I think there is good and bad in everyone
I have no problem working alongside someone who doesnt think like me ( most of do anyway) and Im sure we all come from families that have pursued other interests
Yes, I understand.
What I was getting at was this: knowledge and/or action of what is good~bad, is where the whole problem began. It is that knowledge keeping humans in this crazy game of cat~mouse. A true and undeniable solution to it all is: altruism. I believe (and stand corrected) Immanu El said this: ...love another as yourself, in this you fulfill all the law and all the prophets...
It would end all theology, all sciences, all beliefs or disbelief, IMO.
Ok I understand now thankyou.
I was just meaning in my clumsy way ,that we are all the same in so much as we have the same needs.
To love someone,to be loved and to be understood.
(Two outta three aint bad)
So in line with the original question of this post.
I suggest 'being loving; would seem a goal we all could aspire too -
Some ways to show this are?
Never evangelize your religion. Keep it behind closed doors and out of society.
Beezle be proactive.
Dont be negative ,instead tell me how you would show love ,another words dont preach it......do it
You are the one doing the preaching, which is not showing love by any stretch of the imagination.
Being proactive would help you understand that.
Yes, lock it up and throw away the key, imprison it, suppress it, gag it! People should be forbidden to practice faith, nay, forbidden to even believe. People found believing in even so much as the tooth fairy should be locked up without trial. BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU
Ways to show this love -really the possibilities are endless.
I might be repeating myself, so forgive me.
We all share the common sense. We all know --and as I am stating emphatically (and weird, but also in another thread simultaneously) we all understand. We were designed to understand. Humanity just seems to be suffering from a bad case of [self imposed] Amnesia. I was just reiterating this to Merlin Fraser. It is like some kind of acute Dementia, a type of Alzheimer's.
I believe the altruistic approach is the starting line. It pretty much encompasses not only the theistic view but believe it or not the original humanistic --now atheistic view. Simply abandon self above another, and provide whatever you are able to another human being without considering what or why, without self interest, compensation, sarcasm (one of my weaknesses) etc.
I agree the possibilties are indeed endless.
Not sure that I would agree that humanism or atheism (nor Christianity) can take credit for the whole slice on humility though.
I am inclined to believe that love ,and its many branches are often found in the most humble and self sacrificing heart.
Difficult to see in its fullness here,but not impossible lol
I love the way you think ,not to be confused with agreeing ,just love the process or grace I see.
And that is probably the best approach --a selfless heart.
No doubt, not one system can take credit or even provide credence, which is, to me, the undertone of them all. Each wants to claim rights to something no one really has rights to, but possesses (if that actually made any sense). Each is trying to dog pile the other and volley for the Prize : a power, position that any child can do --and in many cases do better-- than the collective "Borg Humanity".
"Love thy neighbor"I do that allot James...but I always leave before her husband gets home from work...sometimes it's a real close call cause I Really really"Love"my neighbor.It's all in how we interpret it huh bro?
Nicely said - and fabulous new profile pic, btw.
acceptance of who you are so that you have the ability to accept others.! great question!
I agree,I like that.
I always try to look for the positives in people too
I used to work with this guy who wasnt very popular (with anyone) he was loud ,obnixious,sometimes abrupt and rude BUT I discovered he had this delightful sense of humor ...AND he made great coffee.
Most people I find have other good qualities if we look
Did you say COFFEEEE
If you did brought all the major Religion together , they would agree on one thing!!!.
Drum roll please,,,drrrr drrr drrr
Each Religion will agree, they are the right Religion
Hell on earth is still alive
I still, love you all anyways
Cappuccino or Latte ?
I guess we all could agree to take care of the planet better( no matter who we think created ,or how it came about).
We all live here ,will leave it, and pass it on to the next generation.
I agree, as a species ,mankind tends to fight and be in a lot of conflict.
There are some for example who feel the need to control,and then others who boast of 'higher knowledge' but me, I can follow and lead, depends on the task or goal
Making the world a better place is definitely a noble pursuit even if you don't follow a religion. However, the conflict on basic beliefs still eventually puts us at odds--Christians (just broadly for example) have a founding belief that God put man as a ruler over the earth, though our instructions were still to keep it with care. It compares at odds with treehuggers who won't let us drill for oil because it's "killing life," (sorry, don't believe plants have a consciousness), and with animal rights activists who refuse to let us test new medicines on animals (which I do feel sorry in some ways, but the scientists surely try their best to keep it at "pain" and not "suffering"- there is a difference- and I am thankful to those animals because they are standing like a shield before humans and helping us search for cures).
Now, that was a very long-winded example, but it's true. T_T; Sometimes I begin to wonder if animal rights activists are even going to protest synthetic fur, saying it'll give some animal mental trauma if they see it. (have they started that one yet? I'm not sure.)
But coming down to it, yeah; if we put aside ALL the difference, we can even get along (just don't bring up theology, on purpose or otherwise. 8D ) Charities, etc. are great ways to get together and work for the betterment of mankind, and everyone can agree that such-and-such place is need of "blank", and cooperating long enough to accomplish said feat should be doable.
(Afternote: *Should be*. Then you have people like Beelzedad that like to pick fights over nothing. T_T; You have to be careful of those.)
Religious charities are only in it for the conversions, that is entirely their motive for doing good acts, so that the believers get in good with their gods, they don't really care anything for mankind.
Felt compelled to lie about me? Terrible behavior. Typical for believers, though.
No, you just kept dragging around the conversation until it got completely away from the original topic because you love to argue and put down. I'm not going to be your partner for it this time, either, but I had to answer your original paragraph.
I don't HAVE to please my God, because I believe that once God saves someone they never become "un-saved." We can raise hell and water on earth after we're saved and still go to heaven, but that doesn't mean we will be rewarded for it. Christians do good because when God saves them, it changes something inside their hearts, and they WANT to do good. They want to obey God's commands and please him. We don't have to "get in good" with him, because to God we are all equal regardless of money, fame, jobs, friends, or anything else of this world.
I do what I do because I love God, and I want others to see and understand why, because then they'll love him too. ^^ And even if you try to argue with me, I'm not going to answer, because I'm taking the email option off this post. You just like to make a tick out of yourself, so have fun with it BY yourself. ^^
I understand your need to be compelled to lie about that.
You don't know if anyone has been saved.
Utter nonsense. Christians are doing what they do to get in good with their gods. If that weren't true, then they wouldn't also believe mankind is sinful by nature. Sorry, but you're contradicting yourself again.
Some more equal than others, obviously. What about the tens of thousands of starving children in the world each day?
Exactly my point, thank you for confirming it.
You aren't arguing because you're posts are full of contradictions and fallacies. And, you're left with attacking me personally as a result. Typical believer behavior.
You tell him girl!!
Be encouraged 2/3rds of the remaining angels cheer you on
Have you ever heard the cries of screaming lettuce? Neither have I, yet I would not be so one-sided or off balance to worry about. Not like the be all and end all of Jesus who is under the Sun of God. Humans are only one out of a million species on earth ,why don’t cut open a human to help the other million species, seem fair, it’ respectful to other life forms.
There is a generally consensus that religious works hand and hand with world politics and tooled by militarily complexities. Is it a central belief amongst the main religions that nature was created by God? The Bible presents human dominance over nature as we are crippling ourselves by outrageous War budgets, where a small fraction of their budget could eliminate our poverty. Maybe we can agree on this,
Can all religion agree on which religion is the one and only way to god, How many Christian members would there be, if the afterlife had no existence of hell? Fear and insecurity has overpowered our love and our true ethics in developing a friendlier World.
The greatest threat to mankind is a nuclear war and natural man made environment crises. Thank God, excuse my expression; we still can express ourselves and not separate our love for most people on earth, Global public opinion is the only alternative super power and still the true leader of change for the better. Will all Environmental organisms on earth be a distance second priority to your one and only God? If our planet turns into a one big ball of burning crap by our own human hands, what good are your one and only God anyways?
Because when the world collapses in on itself (and actually, the Bible does say it will "pass away"), God will be the one we'll be facing. Because if we were to die when the earth collapses, we'll either be seeing the literal Heaven or literal Hell. If we don't accept a saving hand after God gives it to us, it's our own fault. And if you didn't notice, I said it earlier: God gave us dominion over this planet and all that resides thereon. He told us to take care of it. The rest of mankind hasn't exactly listened to anything ELSE he's said, has it? Why act like you're God's agent when it only suits you? (I'm not directing those towards you, they're rhetoric, obviously.)
As for religion and politics mixing, there are two parts of that: America was founded on the Christian morals that nearly all of the original writers of the Declaration had. In that manner, yes, religion may mix with politics. However, I absolutely DESPISE when countries make official religions that everyone has to follow. It's useless, counter-productive, and worst of all, the exact OPPOSITE of what God wanted.
I understand your concern with the -current- world, but what Christians have to do is look at the -afterlife- more than the present one. Souls are eternal; whether the world crumbles and dissipates into space or not, our souls are eternal and there is a place they will go after we die. If Hell didn't exist, it would be because Satan never fell away from God, and in that case would never have tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden, and PERHAPS a sin nature would never have been born in mankind. Then we would have lived close to God from birth until death and never even been aware of the existence of sin.
Even you know when things are right and wrong. "Wrong" is the nice word people have given "sin" so that it doesn't sting as much.
Well, the rest of it's a lovely rabbit trail that I'm not going to follow. I'm sorry that you don't agree with me, but before jumping down my throat come to terms with me believing something different. I'm taking the notification off on this post, so I won't even know if you respond.
Have a blessed day, Mr. Sir. =^^=
No, he didn't. Dominion means dominance; to rule, which was the correct referral.
That is the exact type of delusional fantasy that allows Christians to not care about this world or what happens to mankind. They are shooting themselves in their righteous foot.
Since you say they are shooting themselves in their righteous foot, what would be your solution?
There would need to be serious changes in religious doctrine regarding humans.
The kind of changes that put mankind in the forefront instead of gods.
That change alone is enough to change things here for the better. What more were you looking for?
s p e c i f i c s, if you please. Change alone doesn't change anything. I think it wins elections --like the American Junior Senator did- or debates by changing the subject-- but that's it.
can you speak a bit louder Sir, I can't quite hear you, thanks
i had no idea that when you were so extrememly rude to me on my hubpage, that you were a die hard christian. This explains alot Y. Kajitaka
I can agree with people about 95% of the time, it's that 5% that we disagree on, that can be a bi#?*xxxch
Sorry, I just can't give all of my soul to Allah (all of me) or to a that white bearded jealous God who wants to take my soul just like all of the other Religion want to also.
That’s just too greedy, I prefer to keep my soul and share it better for everyone sake, so nobody or one single group gets to hogs the whole thing and turn it into a fight club, in which you can't talk about the fight club,
Dose everyone agree?
Toss my soul into the air and have them fight for it, and have business as usual.
It's really sad commentary on mankind, isn't it? TT_TT But I'm glad you like!
Indeed it is and the remarkable thing is despite an education etc intelligent minds many still fail to see pride affecting their attitudes.
I would not call it pride, I would prefer to call it desire
First Desire.: or call it dreams, self relience, spirit, self serve and etc
Second. Attitude: how you, we and I get along with people and rest of the world
Third, Focus: yes, a lot of work, work is love made visual
Fourth, Talent:: God made me to say that
How how would you line up a successful life?
Pride as in 'Preoccupation with ones acheivements ,abilities,talents etc'
I think people measure success differently.
I tend to measure it by evidence of integrity,then all the other good traits like honesty ,love and kindness will fall in behind.
I think the World need more kindness and love rather than more Religion and Politics.
Would you agree?
What integrity is there in Religious wars, when nine times out of 10, it is murder in a uniform? Killing is Worst sin, game over.
Most Christians would rather be killed than to lie about being Christian, if he or she were capture by a terrorist Muslim group that happen to be murdering or killing Christians that day. Is it true integrity to die than to lie about being Christian and live another day?
I f I were a hard core Christians, I don’t think I would have survive the freedom of traveling to 94 countries. Luckily, I do not take sides and would do not have to lie or die either way to save my life.
Do you think you can freely travel everywhere on earth and share full honesty with all your soul with all other souls of religion and be fearless?
I think the World need more kindness and love rather than more Religion and Politics.
Would you agree?
I agree 100% and I have done both. That is shown love and kindness and never mentioned anything religious....
(I like people, and if I have a talent or something they need,I am happy to share)
Other times I been part of a church group on an outreach type activity so was kinda evident whose name we came under.
I agree that evil has been committed (and still being committed under the so called name of god)...It is very very sad, when gutless evil people blame someone else over their crimes.
If I am ever faced with having to choose or deny Jesus Christ , truthfully,I hope I would show courage and remain loyal to the one who has been faithful to me -God
That means, more likely, your like most Christians who would tell the terrorist your Christian and die.
It's self serve to stay alive, not selfish.
If you’re selfish God prefer you to die than to lie a less evil of the two.
Then your God would not be the all loving God, I sense that connects us all and all earthling and all within the Universe.
Castle-your answer reminds me of story I heard a long time ago.
Hitler and his army entered this home,demanding all Jews and all Christians to stand before him and his soldiers.
On the floor lay a portrait of Jesus Christ.
They were all commanded to denounce their faith ,and spit on the face of Christ.
One by one they came forward,slowly ,reluctantly denounced their faith and spat on the portrait.
Finally the last one left was a young 16 yr old girl ,who was pushed forward to complete the process.
She raised her arms to heaven and said I can not deny my Christ and my Savior ,then she knelt to clean off the spittle off the picture of Christ.
Hitler instantly commanded the rest be shot and this girl be saved ,announcing 'Loyalty such as this' is what I seek !!
A warm and fuzzy Story.
Did Hitler go to Heaven for it?
What do you think?
Really wasn't the moral of the story.
Still my favorite bible story is about the bald headed that shredded the children to death for mocking his bald head. A lot of Christian are embarrass about that one in church. My Sunday school teacher never explain that one to any of us kids, since every word in the bible is true and to question God may cost you a lightning bolt from heaven.
'she' is the mother cat!
Really and coming from you too,usually your insults are grammar free
Goes to show you are human -hehe.
OK ,I meant bald headed Priest . Mmmm, I must be a spiritual being having a human being experience, because no lightning bolt has come'th down and struck me dead.
In the Old and New Testament of the King James Bible and there are many verses that were strikingly sick, even more bizarre. In this list of 10 verses that are never preached on, Don’t you find these verses extremely odd.
10. 2 Kings 2:23-24
Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up the road, some youths came from the city and mocked him, and said to him, “Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!” So he turned around and looked at them, and pronounced a curse on them in the name of the LORD. And two female bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.
It seems to me that we all want a better world than what we have, but we want it better according to what our own personal wants are, without much meeting in the middle, or agreeing to disagree. Until egos and insecurities take a back seat and are substantially tamed, it's not likely to happen.
However, if there is enough cataclysmic destruction and mankind is threatened with extinction, I think we may consider seeing more eye-to-eye.
agreed - everyone wants a better world.
It does seem the world needs a huge event to shake it out of lethargy.
Yes, my guess a 100 million deaths at one time, should scare the hell out of our abuse on earth and to change us again for the better.
Pleaseeee! get rid of that red button, Lord Satan.
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