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Abortion is wrong and immoral.

  1. psycheskinner profile image84
    psycheskinnerposted 6 years ago

    Perhaps you should write a hub about it.  This is *hub*pages.

    1. dutchman1951 profile image60
      dutchman1951posted 6 years agoin reply to this

      yes, in a Hub. Your opinion is immoral, others may not feel so. If anything it is Personal Choice, not for others to make for that person.

      assuming you are a believer, then hate the sin,  love the sinner, and as the song says; ?   "Let it be"   

      we do not step in to Judge for God, he said so, remember??????

  2. MelissaBarrett profile image60
    MelissaBarrettposted 6 years ago

    Trolling is wrong and immoral and should be punished by a rain of dead trout that spring automatically from the USB ports of any person engaging in such an activity.

    1. KyleBear profile image59
      KyleBearposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      How on earth is this trolling?

      1. TMMason profile image69
        TMMasonposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        Because they do not like Conservative opinions on Abortion spouted on this site. Looking at the reality of what you do when you slaughter the innocent is alot for anyone to take and still feel good about themselves.

        Hope that helps.

        1. profile image0
          Emile Rposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          So, if I started a thread suggesting conservatives should be sterilized you'd probably think that was a bad idea.

      2. psycheskinner profile image84
        psycheskinnerposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        Trolling is coming to a site without planning to use it for its core purpose, and starting inflammatory threads.

        The little score on your avatar is a rough measure of how much Hubpages thinks you are doing what you are meant to on their site.

        1. KyleBear profile image59
          KyleBearposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          This is a forum, where people share thoughts, not a hub. I'm sorry I pissed you off then, I didn't expect you to be so narrow minded. I just wanted to know what other people thought. And yes, I'm new.

          1. TMMason profile image69
            TMMasonposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            I am not. And my score has been high and low and low and high... so do not worry about the biters Kyle. If your Conservative in your views I would suggest you get used to it. On this site no Conservative statement goes un-abused.

            You are correct. This is a forum and you have a right to post any topic you wish to discuss.

  3. psycheskinner profile image84
    psycheskinnerposted 6 years ago

    If you had been here longer you would realize that users with no hub who start a lot of hot threads generally turn out to be spammers or trolls.

    This is a forum for hubpages, a site for hubbers (people who make hubs).  Being here just to create a stir in the forums would put you in the latter (troll) category (i.e. mainly here for the lulz).

    I am not pissed off, it just gets a little dull to see the same thing happen over and over.

  4. profile image0
    Emile Rposted 6 years ago

    Kyle, until you can bear a child, this is none of your  business.  You don't deserve to have an opinion on the matter.

    1. TMMason profile image69
      TMMasonposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      That is absurd, Emile. Men have as much right to their child as any woman.

      1. profile image0
        Emile Rposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        No. Not until it is born. Prior to that, it is inside her and a part of her. Would you argue that you have part ownership of her liver?

        Anyway. That's the last I'm going to say to you on this topic. It is, truly, none of your business.

        1. TMMason profile image69
          TMMasonposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          Wrong... from the moment of conception a father's Right to his child exists. It took two to create that child, and that child is 50% his DNA.  And you want a man to have no right to any part of it... except to give you money when you give birth. That speaks volumes about Leftist women in this day and age. Money money money... gimmme gimmie gimmie... they love materialism, but hate children. What a sad world.

          1. profile image0
            Emile Rposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            You are a funny guy.  Let me horrify you with my philosophy here.

            Men have no rights.  Period.  The laws of our land give men freedom to do as they please, when they please, when it comes to children.  So, you have no rights.

            As to women.  I abhor women who use children as an albatross around men's necks.  If you are not in a relationship and you have sex and get pregnant.  My theory is; what was free stays free.  Men should not be forced to pay child support period.  If the law was changed, so that men had a say in whether to carry a child full term in a situation like this, women would stop attempting to use this to trap a man. If he chose to divorce himself from the process, then the woman would have to bear the full brunt of the responsibility for her actions.  You'd see a whole lot less unplanned, unwed pregnancies.

            I would never, in a million years, have considered an abortion if I found myself in an unexpected predicament, but every woman has the right to make her own decisions for her own body, without the pathetic and disgusting bs attached to it that the religious insist on. 

            Your God never said put a ring through someone's nose and drag them down the path you think is right.  If you took half a second to read your Bible without a pair of holier than thou assinine and pathetically egotistical blinders, you would see that, at every turn, God says chose, but please chose me.

            Oh, and I believe it also says judgement is His and His alone.  But, i've noticed here that most of the religious think they are on the same footing with God himself, so that might explain your attitude.

            1. TMMason profile image69
              TMMasonposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              "Men have no rights.  Period.  The laws of our land give men freedom to do as they please, when they please, when it comes to children.  So, you have no rights."

              What?... that has to be a mis-statement. It doesn't make sense, we either have Rights, or not.

              And the law of this land does not give the man a Right to do as he pleases regarding children.

              And no-where have I said women are property and should have a nose ring... that is just your assinine hyperbolic illogical thought process there.

              I said men have as much Right to their child as women, and that is a fact. And my issue is not with being able to tell women what to do... it is with the fact that no-one has the Right to commit murder and Life begins at conception. Period... so do not assume you know what i think, or how I treat women. Also, If you do not want to raise the child, then it is up to the father, or grandparents. but murder is NOT an option for anyone.

              And I do not judge people. But I do not lie to someone either, I state what I think and believe, period, no PC here.

              "As to women.  I abhor women who use children as an albatross around men's necks.  If you are not in a relationship and you have sex and get pregnant.  My theory is; what was free stays free.  Men should not be forced to pay child support period.  If the law was changed, so that men had a say in whether to carry a child full term in a situation like this, women would stop attempting to use this to trap a man. If he chose to divorce himself from the process, then the woman would have to bear the full brunt of the responsibility for her actions.  You'd see a whole lot less unplanned, unwed pregnancies."

              And we agree totally there. And I am glad to hear that you would never consider Abortion... you are a very good women and person for that.

              1. profile image0
                Emile Rposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                Don't be a twit.  You knew exactly what I meant when I said men have no rights.  They have no rights when it comes to unborn children.

                And yes, the laws do give men the right to do as they please.  If you choose to be a dad, then you are.  If you chose not to, that  is perfectly legal too.  Money does not raise a child.  Even if child support is paid, it doesn't mean anything to the child.

                I wasn't talking about nose rings in women's noses.  I was talking about nose rings in general.  You have no right to decide what is right for another person, male or female, on any level. When you start imposing your morals on someone else, that is a nose ring.

                You have no way of knowing when that fetus becomes a separate human being.  Imposing your personal opinion through terror and intimidation is abhorrent. Women who are faced with that decision do not need hateful and spiteful things thrown at them.  They are emotionally distraught already.  Your lack of consideration for that human life is appalling. 

                If you were concerned, i would think you would be willing to adopt the children you are hell bent on forcing women to have, but I would bet you haven't.  As do no Chrisitians. It would take away all the time you need to sit in judgement of everyone else.

                You have no idea who or what I am; but judging by what little interaction we have had you do not, in my opinion, know what good is.  So your attempt to pay me a compliment is of no value to me.

                1. TMMason profile image69
                  TMMasonposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  No one has the Right to commit MURDER.

                  And yes, Society does have a Right to outlaw MURDER, and we will. Roe Vs Wade will be over-turned soon. I hope that make you happy. It does me.

                  End of story. All your hyperbolic BS ranting doesn't change that.

                  And you have no Idea how many children I have or have adopted... so get a life. And talk about hateful... listen to yourself.

                  1. profile image0
                    Emile Rposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                    Well, I certainly agree that murder is wrong. Abortion is not murder in the eyes of anyone with the ability to see the truth. Those blinded by a hateful religion will never see the truth.

                    I'm not being hateful, it's simple honesty. And it's obvious from your statement that the only thing you have done on the topic of unplanned pregnancies is condemn and harrass poor women who are already emotionally fragile. That is so sad.

                    But Roe Vs. Wade will never be over turned. That fact probably eats at you, but it's a fact. You should learn to live with it.

            2. lizzieBoo profile image68
              lizzieBooposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              Emile, We have alimony laws to protect vulnerable women from predatory men who would otherwise take what they wanted and get away with it. Saying you abhor women who get pregnant to trap a man  sounds horribly misogynist. Surely those type of women are a tiny minority. How many more women are out there who have found they've been duped by men taking what they want and leaving them alone?
              "...the woman should bear the full brunt of responsibility for her actions... "
              what, go back to the good old days where women were judged for being pregnant out of wed-lock, but men could get away scott free? Is this what feminists fought for?
              Leaving the responsibility solely in the hands of women and not demanding the equal responsibility of men, you would not only be causing the abortion rate to rise, (since women could not guarantee being taken care of), you would also be widening the gap back up between men and women. It would be disastrous.

              1. profile image0
                Emile Rposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                lizzieboo, I completely disagree with you on so many levels. 

                First, women are not children.  I am sick of them being treated as such.  It is not difficult to take responsibility for your own body, and your own life. Birth control is not rocket science. I think it is obvious that there are still plenty of women who use pregnancies to push a relationship along.

                I have no idea what any feminist expects out of life.  I do believe though, that women consistently use children as weapons against men.  I've seen it enough to know. The children are the victims. Every time.  You can't force someone to be part of a child's life.  A woman making a choice to become pregnant and forcing a man to become a part of something she decided to allow to happen is just as unfair to the man.

                Taking responsibilty does not mean the abortion rate rises.  It would fall, if people were forced to take responsibilty for their own actions at every level.

                Edit.  I didn't see your statement about women being taken care of. I can't relate to that. I've never needed to be up taken care of, or wanted to be taken care of. I would think less of myself if that is what I saw in a man. That is not what I want in a relationship, so I would say, again, women need to grow up. How can you expect equality if you are expecting to be taken care of?

                1. aguasilver profile image81
                  aguasilverposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  " It would fall, if people were forced to take responsibilty for their own actions at every level."

                  Agreed

        2. aguasilver profile image81
          aguasilverposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          errrr... not being to pedantic, but surely half of that child is bearing the father signature DNA and, if left unobstructed, will be half his child, and as for saying ONLY when it's born, that just proves that you believe basic rights supposedly star with the first breath, which is nonsense.

          Abortion is the number one cause of death in the USA, and as a result of abortion laws you now have a native resident population which is rapidly sinking below the level of replacement, and where your culture and traditions will be lost forever, replaced by whoever can gain entry and will breed quickly.

          1. Beelzedad profile image55
            Beelzedadposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            When you make claims like that, which are patently false, you can't expect anyone to take you seriously. Your credibility shrinks to zero and anything you say is highly questionable and most likely a silly fabrication.

            Seriously, you may want to take another stab at that one. smile

            1. aguasilver profile image81
              aguasilverposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              In 2008, approximately 1.21 million abortions took place in the U.S., down from an estimated 1.29 million in 2002, 1.31 million in 2000 and 1.36 million in 1996. From 1973 through 2005, more than 45 million legal abortions have occurred in the U.S. (AGI).

              http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html

              Deaths and Mortality
              (Data are for the U.S. and are final 2007 data; For the most recent preliminary data see Deaths: Preliminary Data for 2009  [PDF - 674 KB])

              Number of deaths: 2,423,712
              Death rate: 803.6 deaths per 100,000 population
              Life expectancy: 77.9 years
              Infant Mortality rate: 6.75 deaths per 1,000 live births
              Number of deaths for leading causes of death:
              Heart disease: 616,067
              Cancer: 562,875
              Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 135,952
              Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 127,924
              Accidents (unintentional injuries): 123,706
              Alzheimer's disease: 74,632
              Diabetes: 71,382
              Influenza and Pneumonia: 52,717
              Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 46,448
              Septicemia: 34,828

              http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm

              So I will stand with my statement.

              1. Beelzedad profile image55
                Beelzedadposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                Yes, I'm sure you will, no matter how patently false the statements. smile

                1. aguasilver profile image81
                  aguasilverposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  Obviously you missed the 1.21 million abortions that took place in the U.S in 2008, way more than deaths by heart attack, the main LISTED cause of death.

                  Of course they like to keep the killing of unborn children off the radar, it's probably too contentious.

                  1. TMMason profile image69
                    TMMasonposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                    Puts the lie to the left and their, safe legal and rare, argument. Abortion is no more than another immorallity pushed on us and on our children as acceptable and good.

                    And the issue of Abortion is the bussiness of all Americans. That is the Social contract we live under here emile. You don't like it, to bad.

                  2. Beelzedad profile image55
                    Beelzedadposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                    Or, more precisely, they understand a whole lot better than others who make patently false statements based on their religious beliefs. smile

                2. lizzieBoo profile image68
                  lizzieBooposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  Both anti-religion and anti-life: what a surprise!

                  1. profile image0
                    Emile Rposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                    I don't want to argue with another woman on this issue, but it isn't anti life. It's pro choice. And that is the only stand a man should have on the subject. imo.

          2. profile image0
            Emile Rposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            Interesting response. So we should breed out of fear of other ethnic groups taking over?

            Sorry. I notice your avatar is a guy. The issue of abortion is none of your business, unless you are discussing it with a wife or daughter. Unless you want me to start taking an interest in your body parts and telling you what to do with them. Or, you could grow a womb. That would give you the right to an opinion on women's issues too.

            1. aguasilver profile image81
              aguasilverposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              Think it's been clearly covered that the rights of the unborn child is equally the right of the father.

              If you chose to decide that the father of your child has no rights, so be it, best thing to do is never have any sexual relationship that could lead to an innocent life being taken to suit your wishes.

              If a man 'assists' in creating life, it's his responsibility as much of the mothers, and look at my post above, the parents lose their mutual rights to self will when they conceive a child, and the child gain the important right to protection.

              It's how humanity got this far.

              1. profile image0
                Emile Rposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                By the laws in the United States you are wrong. You are welcome to vote your conscience. It has been my observation that those who agree with me are in the majority.

                What decisions I might make are not the question here. The question is, who do you think has the right to force another human being to bow to your personal opinion of what they should do with their body? It is male arrogance to think this is any man's right to voice an opinion other than a husband to his wife.

                1. aguasilver profile image81
                  aguasilverposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  "who do you think has the right to force another human being to bow to your personal opinion of what they should do with their body? It is male arrogance to think this is any man's right to voice an opinion other than a husband to his wife."

                  So the percentile chance of creating life from a random sexual encounter between two irresponsible people deprives the unborn child of all rights?

                  Whereas when the parents happen to be married, the child gains the right to protection by the father, if he can persuade his wife to not kill the child.

                  OK, think I see how your mind works.

                  1. profile image0
                    Emile Rposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                    No. you don't see how my mind works. This belief in  a separate human life and soul at conception is your belief. It does not make it fact. If you want to pretend that it is fact with your wife, you are free to do so. You do not have the right to involve others in your fantasy, against their will.

  5. KyleBear profile image59
    KyleBearposted 6 years ago

    Deleted. Accidentally posted an inappropriate topic for the community here. Sorry.

  6. MelissaBarrett profile image60
    MelissaBarrettposted 6 years ago

    LMAO, two minutes difference in threads where I am being accused of being too liberal and too conservative.

  7. MelissaBarrett profile image60
    MelissaBarrettposted 6 years ago

    I'm dead serious, if the O.P. in this thread does not immediately make a hub about this topic, I shall pray (or hope fervently depending on his religious affiliation)that every public bathroom he visits for the rest of his life is out of toilet paper.

    1. Mighty Mom profile image85
      Mighty Momposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      Melissa -- You have a gift for threats. I'm serious!

      1. MelissaBarrett profile image60
        MelissaBarrettposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        Keeps the kids and hubby in line... they never know when I might actively participate in my curses smile

  8. earnestshub profile image88
    earnestshubposted 6 years ago

    Abortion is not the business of fairies or their reps. smile

    1. TMMason profile image69
      TMMasonposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      Your right, it is the bussiness of all Society.

      1. profile image0
        Emile Rposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        Stop it Mr. Mason. I have already explained this once. Do not make me repeat myself. It isn't any man's business. smile

        1. TMMason profile image69
          TMMasonposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          Yo do not get to tell me what to do... Your own logic. smile. And yes it is Societies Right to determine the legality of such issues as Abortion. As it is other Social issues also.

          1. profile image0
            Emile Rposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            Ok..ok. We'll continue this battle in the voting booth of we have too.

            1. TMMason profile image69
              TMMasonposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              How about we agree to dis-agree, Emile. I have no personal animosity against you, we simply do not agree. And that is not so bad a thing... is it?

              1. earnestshub profile image88
                earnestshubposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                Your mother wears army boots TM!

                There that feels better!

                I see you have strong beliefs on abortion TM. smile

                1. TMMason profile image69
                  TMMasonposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  I am passionate about many things E. You know that.smile

                  And don't pick on my mom's boots... they look a lil stupid, but she is old ad has a right to indulge. smile

                  1. earnestshub profile image88
                    earnestshubposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                    Happy to hear you still have your mom. I miss mine. smile

              2. profile image0
                Emile Rposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                Not a bad thing at all. Spirited debate and a handshake when it's over. My kind of disagreement.

                1. TMMason profile image69
                  TMMasonposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  Excellent. I will say with that, that it is nice to meet you, Emile. Regardless of our dis-agreements and spirited debates. And I look forward to the next one. Have a good evening... I am signing off in a minute.

  9. Mighty Mom profile image85
    Mighty Momposted 6 years ago

    So is there any support from the OP on his argument that abortion is wrong and immoral? Or has he pulled an Elvis and left the building? Or maybe gone to write a hub on the subject.

    If you think abortion is wrong and immoral, don't have one.
    End of debate.

    1. KyleBear profile image59
      KyleBearposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      As I said, this topic didn't work out quite well as many people didn't think I should post it here, so I deleted it. I'd gladly make a hub soon though if you all want me too. And thanks Mason for sharing my views smile If only they were more people that are as open minded as you.

      1. MelissaBarrett profile image60
        MelissaBarrettposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        I think you should, obviously you feel strongly about the topic and that is usually the best place to start. smile



        Yes.  If only.

        Well, I'm off to write my hub on the invention of the "sarcasm" font.

      2. profile image0
        Emile Rposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        Hey Kyle. This looks like an excellent idea for a hub. You are bound to get tons of traffic. Even if you are wrong, wrong, wrong. smile

        Just kidding. You have your right to your opinion.

    2. Paul Wingert profile image77
      Paul Wingertposted 6 years ago

      Abortion is something shared between the mother, her family and her doctor. No room for government or clergy.

      1. earnestshub profile image88
        earnestshubposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        Well said Paul, I have the same view. smile

      2. aguasilver profile image81
        aguasilverposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        ...and the unborn child.... or do they have no rights?

        1. profile image0
          jomineposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          If YOU can look after the fetus, bear the discomfort, bear labour pain and bring the child up, at least with the comfort you enjoy, yes the future might be born child have right

          1. aguasilver profile image81
            aguasilverposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            Did that, my sons mother abandoned him and I raised him alone for 8 years until I met my wife, so I know a little bit about single parenthood and responsibility, indeed it was raising my son that matured me greatly.

            Being a single parent meant I was unable to work full time, which meant we were poor most of the time, and that was OK, because I knew I wanted to be the father I wished I could have had for myself, and got to share the life that I wanted to have lived with my father.

            My son is 22 now, and works with underprivileged kids in NYC for the last three years, I am immensely proud of him.

            His mother would have aborted him, I hung out for him to be born.

            Unborn children have rights from the moment they are conceived, and paradoxically we (the parents) surrender our rights at the moment of conception, when our progeny become paramount.

            Yes killing unborn children is considered legal, and it is, in the present climate, a woman's right, but it's still killing an innocent human being, however we dress it up.

    3. profile image0
      klarawieckposted 6 years ago

      For those that are open to the idea of reincarnation...
      The soul chooses who the parents will be before conception. At the time of conception it links itself to the woman and over the next nine months it will attach itself to the fetus slowly. If, for whatever reason, the mother decides to end the pregnancy, the soul understands the situation and either waits for death, or leaves on his own accord (miscarriage). That same soul might wait until the opportunity arises to come back to the same parents, or might look for new parents altogether.

      I personally, don't like the idea of abortion, and I suffered a lot four years ago when I had a miscarriage, after having several dreams with the soul that was reincarnating. It was a traumatizing experience and we haven't tried having kids up to this day.

      I also believe that the decision of abortion should be made by both parents, of course, as long as the father is in the picture and willing to stick around if he wants the baby.

    4. MelissaBarrett profile image60
      MelissaBarrettposted 6 years ago

      Without stating my personal views on the issue, quicksilver that number seems a little high.  Is that including medically necessary inductions (I.E. tubal pregnancies, etc) where the baby/embryo/fetus/human being/sack of cells would not be viable but continuing the pregnancy would harm the mother?

      And does it also include the pill that is given to rape/incest victims that prevents the implantation of the fertilized egg?

      1. TMMason profile image69
        TMMasonposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        Actually there has been at least a million abortions a year for at least the last decadde. I don't know where he quick got his #s but the sound about right to me.

        1. TMMason profile image69
          TMMasonposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          How many abortions per year in the US?

          In: Abortion, Statistical Information and Demographics.

          In the USA; 1,3 million a year

          Worldwide: 43 million.

          Source: Finer LB and Henshaw SK, Estimates of U.S. Abortion Incidence in 2001 and 2002, Alan Guttmacher Institute, 2005 accessed May 17, 2005.

          Read more:

          http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_abor … z1PSNiqYcx

          And I am sure it has gone up since then.

          1. TMMason profile image69
            TMMasonposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            Even the NAF, National Abortion federation agrees...

            Unintended Pregnancy

            Each year, almost half of all pregnancies among American women are unintended.1 About half of these unplanned pregnancies, 1.3 million each year, are ended by abortion.1,2

            There are many myths and misconceptions about who gets abortions, and why. The fact is that the women who have abortions come from all racial, ethnic, socioeconomic, and religious backgrounds. If current rates continue, it is estimated that 35% of all women of reproductive age in America today will have had an abortion by the time they reach the age of 45.

            That is a pathetic and shameful thing to have in this country.

      2. aguasilver profile image81
        aguasilverposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        Melissa, than number came from The Guttmacher Institute, who describe themselves as:

        The Guttmacher Institute is a leading authority on sexual and reproductive health and rights in the United States and worldwide.

        The CDC have similar figures listed for differing years.

        Since Roe v Wade America has killed 45 million unborn children.

        If that alone does not make people think, I really do not know what will.

    5. MelissaBarrett profile image60
      MelissaBarrettposted 6 years ago

      Thank you TM, but that doesn't really answer my question about the definition of abortions for the statistics. There has, historically, been a difference between the statistics of prolifers and prochoicers.

      1. TMMason profile image69
        TMMasonposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        Those are straight abortions from clinics... not emergency tubals or the pill. That would only chalk the number up, Mellissa. I will look for #s on the other two for you... give me a minute though, I am in the middle of another hub regarding Sen McCarhty..

    6. MelissaBarrett profile image60
      MelissaBarrettposted 6 years ago

      *smiles* I'm really not trying to be argumentative, but that still doesn't tell me whether medically necessary terminations and the preventative pill are included.

      1. TMMason profile image69
        TMMasonposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        Niether am I Melissa, sorry if I am writing with attitudde. smile

    7. MelissaBarrett profile image60
      MelissaBarrettposted 6 years ago

      Thank you TM, I tried a cursory look up and didn't find anything.  I'm doing a hub as well... coincidentally its related to pregnancy

      and I didn't see attitude (on those posts at least smile
      .

    8. profile image0
      klarawieckposted 6 years ago

      Can we all agree, at least, that some people should not breed. PERIOD!

      http://noquarters.blogspot.com/2009/08/ … ed-to.html

      1. TMMason profile image69
        TMMasonposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        He is a poster child for parental licensure thats for sure.

    9. crankalicious profile image93
      crankaliciousposted 6 years ago

      Fun hub.

      I've written on the issue (and removed the links as was suggested)

      To summarize: anybody who thinks the abortion debate is about murder doesn't understand the issue, at all. The issue is about who gets access to safe health care. IMHO, this isn't some subjective thing, it's defined by the logic of the situation.

      If you believe abortion is murder, then you must, logically, believe that all women who seek abortions should be put in jail for life. That should be interesting.

      Look, most reasonable people believe abortion is a last resort. Nobody wants an abortion. However, the question eventually comes down to providing safe health care for all rather than condemning the financially disadvantaged to unsafe health care. Regardless of legality, abortion will always be an option for the middle-class on up.

      1. TMMason profile image69
        TMMasonposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        Actually I believe they are deluded by the Leftist immorallity that has been propagated by the Left in this nation for more than 90 years, and therefore they just do not know better. Like the white racists Dems in the South who were raised to believe blacks were inferior and that they could kill them because it ws their right.

        Same logic, different targets.

        And I do believe in access to Abortion for medical neccessity, rape (though I do not see how it is the childs fault and why the child should die, but)... and for incest, but with the same qualifier, and certain birth defects.
        So...

        1. profile image0
          Emile Rposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          Deleted

          1. TMMason profile image69
            TMMasonposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            Where do you see that.

            I stated clearly I believe that it should be an option for rape, incest, and birth defects or life of the mother. Then I added that in my opinion I cannot see why the child should die for rape or incest he/she did not commit, and I do know that a doctors duty is to both his patients, mother and child, in the case of the mothers life, but it is her choice untimately if she wants to try to give birth or not.

            I think you just want to argue with me...

            1. profile image0
              Emile Rposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              By adding that opinion, you imply that you think that is how it should be. But, I actually thought better of that post and deleted it. You caught it before that happened.

              I don't want to argue with you. I don't want to argue about this at all. It is simply that I find myself flabbergasted by your opinions on the subject.

              1. TMMason profile image69
                TMMasonposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                But I have the Right to my opinions. As you do to yours, Emile. I am sorry, truely sorry, if they offend you, even though I know you won't believe it, but I have the Right to offend with my opinions also.

                That is what the first amendment is all about.

                And I do not want to argue either... but I have my opinions and I won't be cowed down, or beat back by anyone on here because they do not like them. I will defend YOUR right to say what you want, though I may hate it, with my life. Or anyone else on heres right to speak freely.That is what makes this nation great. You said it yourself yesterday.

                1. profile image0
                  Emile Rposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  Right back at you, right wing man. I have the right to voice an opposing opinion. It is simply sometimes I feel like we're on that movie Frequency.You are a voice from the very distant past. I thought that our society had risen above that type of mentality.

                  You are a living testament to my spyrograph multiiverse theory.

                  1. TMMason profile image69
                    TMMasonposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                    Ahh the good ole days. Yes we had our problems, but that doesn't mean it was all bad.

                    1. profile image0
                      Emile Rposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                      Tell that to women, minorities and the poor. They might not call them the good old days.

      2. KyleBear profile image59
        KyleBearposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        Are you sure promoting your hubs here is a good idea? It is against the rules as far as I know. Anyway will be creating a hub soon, not sure whether I'll pick this topic or not though.

    10. crankalicious profile image93
      crankaliciousposted 6 years ago

      TMMason,

      If you believe that abortion is murder, please illuminate us and tell us what we should do with the following:

      1. Women who seek abortions
      2. Women who have abortions
      3. Doctors who perform abortions
      4. Men who leave pregnant women

      I assume that you must believe that they should be tried and prosecuted as murderers?

      FYI, I'm not trying to be bombastic or anything, but anti-abortionists NEVER seem to address this issue.

      1. aguasilver profile image81
        aguasilverposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        1. Women who seek abortions
        Should be correctly counselled about the other options from killing your child


        2. Women who have abortions
        Well as the laws stand, they do no wrong legally, but they need counselling to deal with the real fact, which is that sooner or later they WILL come to understand they killed a child of their own, and will need some help then. Of course the abortionist will not be there to assist, neither will the pro choice folk.


        3. Doctors who perform abortions
        If they do them now, they are legal, so it's only their own consciousness, that is in any case seared so hard it cannot feel anything, which could stop them killing women's children.

        If it were illegal, and a doctor killed a child, yes they should be r\tried for murder then.


        4. Men who leave pregnant women
        Should be charged with an offence of abandoning responsibility and dealt with however the law decided.

        But there is an issue, where the man had a random sex encounter with a previously unknown woman (i.e. the one night stand)who then claims parenthood. For both are equally to blame but the mother may not even know the fathers name.


        Nice questions designed to ensnare folk, but once again focussing on the word murder.

        Abortion is legal in the USA, that's a fact, so it's not murder, its infanticide, or if one were taking the overall figures into account, you could call it self inspired genocide, either way its killing innocent children who deserve to be protected, not ripped from the womb by suction or force, and disposed of in the trashcan.

        That's why pro choice folk react so badly, they hate the reality of things, especially if it may stop one child being killed by their mother when she understands what she is about to do, and what it will mean to her later, when the shock has turned to horror.

      2. TMMason profile image69
        TMMasonposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        I addressed it earlier in this thread. But I will repeat myself and address your other points also.

        As to women...

        Actually, I believe they, our daughters and women, are deluded by the Leftist immorallity that has been propagated by the Left and Progressive Right in this nation for more than 90 years, and therefore they just do not know better, even though they SHOULD.

        Like the white racists in the South who were raised to believe blacks were inferior and non-human, and that they could kill them because it was their Right. How do we condemn someone for doing what they were raised to believe was right... they do not know it is wrong, because their ideas of right and wrong had and have been so sickly twisted.

        I would not imprison any woman who had an abortion before it was out-lawed again. So as far as for while it is legal... I would do nothing, it is their "legal right" to go and have the service while it is legal.

        After it is illegal, if you went out and had an illegal Abortion within the borders of this nation, then you break the law and there are criminal penalties, fines or jail, that would have to be decided by the legistlatures and the American people.

        As to women who seek Abortions... they are legal right now, and so my answer above stands.

        If they were illegal, and a women sought an Abortion, then there is always Canada, or giving birth, and giving the child to the father, or grand-parents, or up for adoption. As far as the Social Economic costs of Adoption, we give out alot of money in foriegn aide to countries that hate us, and that would be better spent suppporting American children who have nothing and no-one.

        As far as Doctors who perform Abortion. They would be out of bussiness once it was illegal. And if they illegally Aborted a child, they would be prosecuted for unlawful termination of a Life. Again the penalty would be set by the Legistlature and the American people.

        And I do believe in access to Abortion for medical neccessity, rape (though I do not see how it is the childs fault and why the child should die, but)... and for incest, but with the same qualifier, and certain birth defects, and life of the mother, and I know that it is the Drs responsibillity to save both his patients, mother and child. But in the end on that one, it is the mothers and fathers responsibillty and choice.

        Men who leave prgnant women. That does not neccessarilly mean the man does not want his child. I know alot of men who would have raised their own child had the woman simply carried that child full term, and i believe most women, once they behold their child in the flesh, would be loathe to surrender that child to anyone and would choose to raise him/her themselves.

        If the man doesn't want the child, but the woman keeps the baby, then child support and all the other obligations of a father apply and the laws are there to have it enforced.

        And I believe Abortion to be murder, I do not believe women to be "murderers", because as i said, they have been twisted in thier morals and understanding of the value of human life. That would be like imprisoning every white man in the South because of what they did, even when we know they were raised to believe it was right.

        I think that answers your questions, Crank. If not let me know and I will expound upon the subject and attempt to be more specific and clearify my positions in some fuller capacity.

        1. earnestshub profile image88
          earnestshubposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          TM you should expand on what you believe more often. This is no where near as radical as I first thought. smile

          1. aguasilver profile image81
            aguasilverposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            Afternoon Earnest, see we radicals can have sane views as well! wink

            1. earnestshub profile image88
              earnestshubposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              Hello aqua, I liked the exceptions. smile

        2. profile image0
          Texasbetaposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          So if a man raises his child to rape women, then when the kid grows up and rapes women, he shouldn't be held accountable? That is what you are saying. You are excusing slave owners because "they didn't know any better." They didn't know that enslaving a human being was not a good thing? Really? You are saying it is cool to be a racist as long as you were raised to be a racist. Yeah...a great human being you are.

          1. aguasilver profile image81
            aguasilverposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            Not really, some folk are raised to be ignorant, TM was illustrating a point, my son works in the Brooklyn projects, trying to stop children being abused,they get abused because seeing folk sell drugs for a 'living' seems normal, taking drugs seems normal, getting pregnant early is normal, and killing or being killed is normal.

            That is YOUR countries reality in the heart of NYC, so what IS normal?

            In fifty years hopefully someone will recognise that killing our children is NOT NORMAL, but for now, it's a civil rights, personal choice issue, not an ethics one.

            Cowardice asks the question - is it safe?
            Expediency asks the question - is it politic?
            Vanity asks the question - is it popular?
            But conscience asks the question - is it right?
            And there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular; but one must take it because it is right.
            Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

            1. Beelzedad profile image55
              Beelzedadposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              Really? It isn't your Christian nation? How much would you bet the vast majority of those folks are believers, hence being raised with ignorance? smile

    11. crankalicious profile image93
      crankaliciousposted 6 years ago

      Good for you for answering, but you both kind of missed the point.

      Both of you want abortion outlawed as it is murder, so let's say tomorrow abortion is made illegal in this country.

      History proves that women who feel they need abortions will continue to seek them. Women who can afford them will go outside this country. Women who cannot afford them will pursue options in back alleys and through other unsafe means. You can argue with this assessment if you like, but this is historical fact and likely to be repeated. So, how would you (not the American people) choose to prosecute the following:

      1. Women who obtain an abortion through illegal means in this country. That would be first degree murder, wouldn't it?
      2. Women who go outside the country to get an abortion. They live here but are violating our laws. Do we treat them the same as women who get abortions in our country? Again, first degree murder right?
      3. Anybody who performs an abortion.
      4. A women who attempts an abortion but is unsuccessful. That's attempted murder, right?
      5. A man who fathers a child, whose act of leaving the woman, contributes to her seeking and getting an abortion.

      I think you're side-stepping these issues. You want this ideal world where abortion doesn't take place. I'm curious how you would choose to enforce the law.

      1. aguasilver profile image81
        aguasilverposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        Actually I would like a world where:

        We accepted that killing children was immoral and extremely short-sighted as a 'tribe'

        Where we recognised that much of the pro abortion lobby were either willing or unwitting tools of the eugenics lobby.

        Where it was ONLY legal to kill a child when it was the lesser of two evils, i.e. the mother would probably die (and possibly both) were the pregnancy be allowed to go full term).

        Where all potential abortion situations were treated with the gravity such a decision requires, and the mother was given EQUAL access to all aspects of the issue.

        Where as a 'tribe' we took care of unwanted babies, rather than killed them. There are countless families seeking to adopt.

        Where men and women were educated to think through their actions rather than be encouraged to do as they please and danm the consequences.

        There are consequences for wrong decisions.

        As to people who break the law, well that is what we have juries for, and no jury is required to find anyone guilty JUST because they broke a law, the onus is on them to decide to do so.

        If someone killed their child and was put on trial, the circumstances would or at least should, prevail in the juries findings.

      2. TMMason profile image69
        TMMasonposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        Produce one rpeort, Police, Health Dept., or other-wise, (a valid report, not propaganda from PP or the Letists Progressive establishment, that shows the mass die off from back alley Abortions you all profess to have occurred.

        I have yet to find one. Did back alley Aborttions occur? Probrably, a relative few of them. Considering we have known of roots and alternative ways to induce an abortion for centuries, they aren't as common as the left would prortray them as.

      3. TMMason profile image69
        TMMasonposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        Give me a few to wake up and I will roll through your questions Crank.

        Cowardice asks the question - is it safe?
        Expediency asks the question - is it politic?
        Vanity asks the question - is it popular?
        But conscience asks the question - is it right?
        And there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular; but one must take it because it is right.
        Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

        Yup.

    12. Garrett Mickley profile image83
      Garrett Mickleyposted 6 years ago

      http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ljojnmUt201qgx7qoo1_500.jpg

    13. crankalicious profile image93
      crankaliciousposted 6 years ago

      TMMason,

      I find you very amusing. And I like how you and aguasilver are avoiding my questions as I presume you both support capital punishment for murderers.

      So, let me just make one point you both don't seem to get.

      Nobody wants an abortion. Nobody thinks abortion is a good solution to any problem. Everybody would be happy if there was never a circumstance that required one. I think we can all agree, yes?

      Here's what both of you don't get: the murder issue is irrelevant to the argument. It has nothing to do with why abortion is legal in this country. You can keep beating that drum and I'm sure others who don't understand the issue will answer, but it has nothing to do with it. I've already explained why.

      And TM, I don't know which Ann Coulter books you're getting your U.S. history from, but it's very funny. For the heck of it, let's review some popular progressive legislation of the 20th century:

      child labor laws, national parks, collective bargaining, women's right to vote, social security, integration of the armed forces, civil rights, medicare, women's rights, gay rights.

      Now let's review conservative social legislation of the 20th century:

      <crickets>

      See, your argument in opposition to Progressive social agendas is ridiculous because, as a conservative, you don't support ANY social legislation because a conservative, by definition, supports the STATUS QUO. In other words, conservatives were against eliminating child labor, giving women the right to vote, collective bargaining, social security; etc. You're against everything that changes the status quo.

      So, there you go.

      1. TMMason profile image69
        TMMasonposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        I answered your questions. You seem to think your just going to keep lining them up, and I will spend all my time on your ?s, as if I am taking an exam I must pass. Too bad...

        Everyone here can see I answered them. You just do not like my answers, or the fact that I won't jump up now and answer the next series of them.

        What a laugh you are, talk about amusing.

        Yes over a million women a year have that unwanted trouble because of the Liberal Leftists Progressive immorallity they have been raised to believe as true. Got pregnant, don't worry, go abort. That simple.

        Now you try to say, -oh you didn't understand what I asked-... yes I did. As far as the man leaving a woman pregnant. He should not go to jail if she goes and brakes the law by getting an illegal procedure. Simple.

        And I am doing other things, I don't fell like wasting all day playing liberal games like these today.

    14. crankalicious profile image93
      crankaliciousposted 6 years ago

      And one more thing, aguasilver:

      I agree with everything you said in your previous post. I would like that world too.

      We could get into another discussion entirely about what it's going to take to make people responsible or if that's even possible. History suggests it probably isn't.

    15. Jerami profile image72
      Jeramiposted 6 years ago

      Abortion is wrong and immoral    ?????

        There are no simple answers.
        Which is worst   A teenager receiving an abortion    OR
      Forcing that child to have the baby and then becoming abusive or neglectful towards their child because of the financial and social difficulties associated with being a single mother,
      The field of potential husbands, or life mates have been greatly reduced.
        In most cases, if she remains a single parent, she resigns herself to a life of poverty.
        She often thinks less of herself and of her child.
      Often, forcing a child to become a mother creates the situation for child abuse or neglect.
      Where are those people that shamed her into being a mother when she needs them the most?
      Most often they are still preventing other abortions, when they haven't finished the jobs they have already started.  Helping to turn a babywoman into a grown up mother.
       

        Is abortion wrong?  Of course it is.
        As is attempting to raise a child that you know you can't take care of.
        If abortion is a religious issue; it is an issue between the woman and her God if she has one. 

        Here is a scenario to consider.                          Excuse the language,  I am not expressing a belief or judgment. Just using terms that I have heard.
       
            Just suppose,
        A woman is a sinner of the worst kind.   As some people might say, she is already going to Hell.
        And now she becomes pregnant also.                                                             Who has the right to impose their morals upon this sinful woman by forcing her to carry this unwanted child to term.
      Would this not be a sin perpetrated upon the child, when we force that retched sinner (not my words) the opportunity to inflict misery upon an innocent child?
      I’m just saying that there are so simple answers, to this problem except, don’t get pregnant when you don’t want to. After that, there are no perfect resolutions.

      What are your thoughts?

        I'll check them out later if there any.
        Right now I gotta go take care of survival stuff.

     
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