A christian: Bible is the god's word.
Q: Who said?
C: Bible says so.
Q: How do you know Bible is truth?
C: Because it is god's word.
A Muslim: Quran is the god's word.
Q: Who said?
M: Quran says so.
Q: How do you know Quran is truth?
M: Because it is god's word.
A Hindu: Bhagavad Gita is the god's word.
Q: Who said?
H: Bhagavad Gita says so.
Q: How do you know Bhagavad Gita is truth?
H: Because it is god's word.
Me: Warthog is the god's word.
Q: Who said?
Me: Warthog says so.
Q: How do you know Warthog is truth?
Me: Because it is god's word.
So which is the TRUTH?
Truth is that which authors all existence so therefore what soever. you make out to be truth is truth unto you.
Now if what you considered to be Truth infact is false it does not change Truth it just means that you have made Truth false because you yourself is such.
And whatsoever you are as person, whether you be truth or false, your god along with his word is also the same.
A christian: Bible is the god's word.
Q: Who said?
C: Bible says so.
Q: How do you know Bible is truth?
C: Because someone said it is!
The first one.
The Word declares and defends itself, is proof of itself, and yet is confirmed both naturally and Spiritually.
The same cannot be said about the other religions, no matter how much you or anyone else may try to lump them all together.
Well the way I see it, all their fairies are mythical so there is no truth in any of them.
In spite of clearly showing their circular logic, and in spite of a using a non existent book called "warthog", to catch the attention, there is still one person who got here, to use the same circular logic to support her believes and denounce all others.
World is tragicomic!!
Personally, I lean toward Pastaferianism. A steaming plate of spaghetti is TRUTH enough for me.
The atheists say they have facts and truth.
The atheists are just a bunch of idiots like you.
The Atheists are not men of Word; they don't have anything of their own they could reference to as authentic.
Actually, atheists have their honesty and integrity, something far more authentic than any "Word"
Who says that atheists have more honesty and intergrity than the theists?
Honesty and intergrity are not prerequisitesof being an theist. Are they?
Be a good discussion (if we could have one)
Why do we believe in being honest for example?
Why do we not murder?
Its wrong -why?
To be dishonest is negative and not pro-life; while being honest is pro-life.
If everybody is dishonest it will be distrustful and would create chaos in the world.
And we already have disorder-right? corruption, crime ,wars etc
That is why we need truthful religion even more in the present times.
Well I know why I respect truth ,for the reasons you gave ,but I was curious about morals etc and why (not 'do they'?) excercise good values..
Please elaborate more for me; I don't get you clearly
Well why should people (example)
"Do unto others as they would have done unto them "
Curious from a non -Christian point of view, where and how morals are developed I guess.
Morals predate Christianity.
I believe morals to be a natural progression.
I'm sure a caveman soon learnt that it was a bad idea to steal from his neighbour as soon as he got belted over the head with a club.
These days hopefully we have more evolved and better reasons for not stealing, but the basis is still the same....... what brings the best long term results for the individual.
You know every animal that live in group obey some "morals"!
In humans case, you know the morals change over time??
It developed when man started living together in village and interacted with one another socially; religion supported the morals as these were pro-life.
You do, each and every time you dishonestly and without integrity post your religious beliefs.
They're not prerequisites of anything. They're characteristics you will never comprehend or be able to integrate into your life as a Muslim.
Here's some of what The Beatles said about the word,
Say the word and you'll be free
Say the word and be like me
Say the word I'm thinking of
Have you heard the word is love?
...I thought you heard,
if you don't know
bird is the word
bird bird bird
bird is the word....
I think the answer is - whatever a person deems to be the 'truth' is just that. It's time we all just agreed to differ. There are soooo many posts on here about who believes what, and people ramming their own beliefs on everyone else - me included, but at the end of the day, we will all believe what we want. 'Truth' doesn't come into it, and no-one can -or should try and change someone's personal views.
Um, jomine. I feel compelled to ask if you've found an answer to
What is "god"? Is god an object or a concept? If it is an object it exist, if it is a concept, it does not. If it is an object, what are it attributes/properties? How do you identify it?
I mean, seriously. How can you ask what you are asking, when you were asking what god was a couple of hours ago?
I was asking the same ..whether god is an object or concept.
First one has to decide whether it is an object or concept.
Here I was just stating what is told by most religious folks, not me.. I was just mimicking the circular logic THEY use. I put the warthog part, to see whether anybody will understand it.. I have never heard a book called warthog.
science is proving what is written in the Quran things written in the scriptures are being proved today. over 1400 years later with all this technology. how come it was all written so early? .. do you think it was just a guess (its not just one thing but many)... and the Quran is written in a poetic style too if you read or hear it in arabic you'll understand. the great poets of the time believed it could not have been Muhammad's words (an illiterate person)
Do you think interpreting and reinterpreting ancient books to suit new finds is "evidence"?
I would like to know the great knowledge predicted in those book, that the earth is the center of the universe? Or is it that devils cause seizure and other diseases? Or is it about computers and internet? Or is it treatment for tuberculosis and cancer? Or is it space travel? Or is it underwater travel?
the steps in child birth... will this work for you?
Chapter 23 verses 12-14
Translation : yusuf ali
Man We did create from a quintessence (of clay); (12) Then We placed him as (a drop of) sperm in a place of rest firmly fixed; (13) Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then We made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then We developed out of it another creature: so blessed be Allah, the Best to create! (14)
Does he find your car keys like the christian god does?
countless miracles all around us ... they're miracles for us ... not for God.
Well, there are hundreds of gods I don't believe in, in fact I don't believe in any of them, so that doesn't answer the question really does it?
I knew you didn't believe in any God which is why i said that... it does apply to you... and does answer the question. doesn't it?
Here is another
I. A. Ibrahim,
“We created man from an extract of clay. Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed. Then We made the drop into an Alaqah* (leech, suspended thing, blood clot), then We made the Alaqah into a Mudghah** (chewed, lump)” The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 23,Verse 12-14
The sperm word is later introduction, the word and context indicate that what he meant was semen. Again it missed the ovum part. Secondly uterus is not firmly fixed, its partly mobile.
It is not sperm mixed with blood, but sperm joining with ovum that creates a fetus. There is no bones or flesh then only group of cells. Flesh develops later and bone much much later. The version is just a collection of worthless pile by the people of that time with no knowledge of embryology. And if you care this is the version that was thought and still being thought as true by majority of people even though they have never heard about Quran.
Try something worthwhile.
I agree the word sperm came much later than during that time. but has been translated in a way easier for us to understand.
and the uterus being partially mobile, is not an argument at all ... there is slight mobilitiy in almost every part of your body ... but the position or area is fixed. zoom out a little... on this one.
its' not talking about development. it talks about the order of creation, obviousely in development the bones would be developed further later, and they keep developing till we're about 20 years old, some less some more.
I do not see it as worthless at all. i'll post another soon to discuss with you.
That is a knowledge everybody knew even before quran and even without quran. There is no Nobel price for guessing flesh and bone arise from semen that is passed into uterus.
It is not a little movement, the uterus is mobile just like a joint. we can turn it anteriorly, posteriorly or side ways. In fact it has more movement than spine.
Where is the order? Bones are one of the organs that develop later, I didn't say fully mature.
I think you're still missing the point on this one ... maybe i'm not explaining it well enough. anyways ... will be back with another.
I didn't know the uterus moves like a joint. interesting stuff ... will look it up.
May be I'm.
You can, or you can ask any surgeon/gynecologist. I too am a surgeon, when we do lap appendicectomy we routinely lift it and look under it.
surgeon wow... good stuff... i have great respect for your profession.
if you don't mind me asking ... were you always a non-believer or did your profession make you think this way? I've noticed a trend with surgeons who deal with life and death situations all the time to loose faith/interest in God, which is why i ask. (i hope you're not offended, not my intention to offend)
will still look up the uterus though ... i always try to check 2-3 sources to make sure there is some consistency.
back in a day or two with other examples.
but one thing i would like you to consider with the next ones i post is to try and put your shoes in a person when there was very little knowledge about everything. before einstein and all the guru's of science... basically when people didn't know much.
Most surgeons I have seen are firm believers, well it depends on where you look for. I am not a "non-believer" because of the profession. In fact I rarely take my profession home. I became a non believer by studying and thinking about religion (and god) and what they taught. I'm not offended, unless somebody deliberately tries to insult me and I usually like discussions and that is why I'm still in the forums.
Its easy, look for the pictures in net. you will find that the uterus is attached to the sides only at the bottom and the top part is free. The attachments are with ligaments(something like a plastic rope), so not rigid. Try this, relax any muscle(the bigger, the better) in your body and try to move it side ways, it will move, and it is attached on either ends. Uterus is a muscle(a different type, though) and is attached only at one end.
Einstein's relativity is something which I've no respect for(If you don't find it boring, I have written two hubs about that). To think about god and what the word stands for, we don't need to know everything, just a little logic and reason is enough(god won't stand reason and logic). I'm not belittling you, but I'm stating why I don't consider a god.
How can you have no respect for relativity when you don't even understand it or even the fundamental basics of physics?
Ok, here are some fundamentals of PHYSICS
1. A travelling twin is younger than his sedentary counterpart.
2. Simultaneous events occur at different times.
3. Momentum-less/motionless motion is possible.
4. Condense a concept(may be it is the relativist brain they are condensing) you get matter.
5. Self creation is the rule(OK, god cannot do that, everything else can).
6. "Nothing" can expand
7. Reality is not what you imagine, it is what the priests oops! scientist say it is.
ok i'm back... here we go.
chapter 24 verses 43-45
Seest thou not that Allah makes the clouds move gently, then joins them together, then makes them into a heap?― then wilt thou see rain issue forth from their midst. And He sends down from the sky mountain masses (of clouds) wherein is hail: He strikes therewith whom He pleases and He turns it away fro whom He pleases. The vivid flash of its lightning well-nigh blinds the sight. (43) It is Allah Who alternates the Night and the Day: verily in these things is an instructive example for those who have vision! (44) And Allah has created every animal from water: of them there are some that creep on their bellies; some that walk on two legs; and some that walk on four. Allah creates what He wills: for verily Allah has power over all things. (45)
keep in mind ... this message was given 1400 years ago which science has proved in the past 200-300 hunderd years.
1. cloud formations
2. every animal made from water
I also wanted to add to the uterus discussion we were having earlier. you said it moves... i have not had a chance to verify it but ... even if it does move like any other joint ... is it not fixed in its position with the joint? like the knee having the ability to move but fixed in its location... i hope you get what i'm trying to say...
It doesn't matter when it was given, it only matter whether the same view was prevailing before it, and same or better ideas are there, with people, who do not have science or Quran.
If you go to remote villages in India were there is no quran or science, you will find that even those people know rain comes from clouds. In fact depending on the season and the direction of the clouds they can predict whether it will rain or not.
Now science has so advanced, human beings can decide whether it should rain or not, Allah's will do not always prevail. This was written at a time when people had no idea that a time will arise where human being will be able to control weather.
Here again is a reinterpretation based on new theories. Its just like the hindus or christains reading big bang and interpret some passages to make it as if it says about big bang. Now again there was a connection with India and Arabs, ideas were freely taken from India(remember 0). According to hindu mythology world start from water. So probably this are a mixture of all these ideas.
When I said quran and science, I meant something that might never have foreseen at that time of age, yet was specifically told in quran(an idea bought forward in quran, not before) and only the scientific discoveries of the last 400 years discovered, Is there anything like that? Not some vague ideas that can be turned this way or that way!
Th most mobile joint in our body is the shoulder joint. You cannot get a better movement than that. There is no free movement like a ball in a container anywhere in the body.
i replied to this one ... it didn't save... crap.
well the gist of it was that we have had 124,000 prophets sent to mankind. and we believe that the Quran was the last book, therefore you will find bits of it in every part of the globe even if the person is not a muslim. i'm not talkin about scientific or literate people but the totally illiterate people who have had sayings or traditions passed down through generations.
Traditions are the "know hows" people incorporated over centuries. Religion was just a way of life which incorporated the other aspects of life as well. Person/s jotted in down over centuries or in a short time. So it will contain some truths and some falsehoods. Say for example, we know it is good to take bath and we(especially, those in hot climates) know it for centuries though we didn't know exactly what all ways it help. At the minimum most persons know it refresh. The only surviving pagan religion, Hinduism, incorporated bath into its religion. Now when new and new finds that support bath is coming, the apologetics says the ancients foreseen it all, but that is just a way of interpreting old scriptures to incorporate new finds.
Quran also did the same, it just compiled some knowledge available at that time and added something additional(a little help from judaism and christian versions) to differentiate it.If you can get something regarding cult formation, you will find that all religions shared the same route.
I can understand where you are coming from ... and it makes sense to an extent.
but i think it has to be done that way in order for humans to understand if you know what i mean.
as an example i can say if you look at the education system... they way it works... the childs mind is growing with time and the child gets a better understanding of things as they develop... there is a time when the child is mature and can think on their own and are left in the world to be creative and do wonders with their knowledge, they have learnt the right from the wrong etc etc....
now similarly you can take mankind as the kid and God as the teacher ... mankind learnt things over time ... it takes time for a group of people to learn and then act accordingly. the way i see it ... this is why we've had so many messengers ... and once mankind matured as a whole the final words were repeated in the Quran.
Hindu scriptures also contain messages about prophets to come yet they chose not to follow. the one i remember is 'kalki avatar' ... i think that's what the name is. Dr.Zakir Nayak has a lot of speaches on youtube talking to Hindu's as well regarding their faith and it's message.
I will definitely look up to the cult formation to further understand your view, even though i do not believe in it.
one thing i wanted to also clear and ask you... if you remember the formation of the baby verses where it talks about the clot. you mentioned it did not say ovum anywhere... i read further and the clot it talks about was actually the starting phase of a baby being born when the sperm has gone into the ovum and the chemical reaction starts... so my question to you is - In the absolute start of pregnancy would the baby look like a blood clot?
I'll start with the question, does the zygote look like blood clot.
Ans: Most probably no. Most probably because nobody has seen a zygote and it need electron microscopes to see the initial stages of embryo and it does not show color. No, because no cells in the body has red color except RBC and muscle. Blood is red because of the hemoglobin the RBC contain. Other than that only muscle contain red pigment(myoglobulin). The zygote/embryo do not contain such pigment cells till later in development.
Now I can also guess why the blood clot thing came. Menstrual flow is blood. Also there are a number of spontaneous abortions which is passed along with blood and clots. Even an experienced hand may miss the fetus in that, so people naturally will think that it is blood of female and semen from male that makes a baby. Also whenever we make a cut in our body blood comes and we are bound to think that our inside tissues have more red color.
Now about god!
God for most people is an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient creator with emotions like love, anger, jealousy....
Omnipotent is a contradiction. The question is can god make a stone, he is unable to lift. Or can he create a similar god, or square circle? Either way it is not omnipotent, but most powerful may be(that is there are limitations to his power)
Omnipresent- Only an object can be omnipresent and to be truly omnipresent it has to occupy all space, then the whole universe will be one solid state, not what we observe today.
Omniscient will be OK, but it contradict with omnipotence and free will.
So god is the most powerful creator??
Creator- Space and matter are eternal, cannot be created. So what did he create?
Again creation can be assumed only if we can conceive all that we see today at sometime vanished. But time is a human construct. To assume "beginning" we need to assume "time", but there is nothing called time. For nature/world there is eternal present, different locations of course, but nothing called a past or future. It need a sentient being with memory to conceive time.
Again by logic, a complex being like god has to evolve, cannot suddenly pop off from no where. But again by same logic, simple things has to come first, before complex beings, so man has to come before god.
Now even if we grant all these attributes to god, why such a god need to be emotional and imperfect. A perfect god does not need anything, so why should he create human beings in the first place? Even if he did, being perfect and just, why should he select his one creation over another?(Say I've a dog and cat. Even though I'm not perfect I treat them equally).
This god who can create anything, why should he want human beings to be eternally tortured?(If he is omniscient, he can foresee which of his creation is going to be bad, and he can simply stop creating it. To a great extent, criminality is a manufacturing defect, and to another extent a problem of circumstances).
i got the zygote part - (learnt a new thing thanks to you). but as you said it's still cannot be seen ... i would like to believe that it will look like a clot when technology will allow man to identify the zygote.
Omnipotent - I can see where you are coming from but i would like to add that there is a hadith (saying of the Prophet Mohammad) describing God in which it clearly says that God is behind a veil of light/fire and " If he withdraws it (the veil), the splendour of His countenance would consume His creation so far as His sight reaches."
from this i can say that He has unlimited power and can create anything, using a veil or other powers he may have which we do not know.
Omnipresent ... now you would say this is a contradiction to what i've just said above. In the Quran there are many places where you will see the word "We" ... meaning the angels and God. God is everywhere because every person is born with an angel by his/her side and also a jinn... only God knows the exact count of how many angels He has. we know that there are 70,000 angels who visit Mecca everyday and they only get a chance to visit once from the day Mecca was established till the day of judgement, and there are many more.
It is also known that God comes closer to earth during the night time.
Omniscient - yep with the help of the angels.
you think space and matter cannot be created ... but it can... science can still not bring anyone back to life but God will at the end. It's an open challenge from God ... not to create another being from scratch but to kill a person then bring them back to life... there is an entitiy called Dajjal who will enter the world and will be able to do that once but cannot bring life to the person for a second time.
very true about time ... we would not know time if God did not create the sun and the moon to allow us to compute time.
time is much slower on this earth than it is in the heavens. the last time i calculated with a friend it was something like 50,000 years on earth equals 1minute in the heavens. i'll have to recalculate to be more accurate.
simple things before God - firstly God does not need to evolve. we are one of Gods best creations (i've heard this but haven't found a reference to prove it yet) ... the best also meaning the most complex. but you also have to note that God is doing the creation therefore his most complex would humans... right?
God is not imperfect ... Emotions yes, God loves all humans 70 times more than a mother can love their child. and if you think of it this way then the emotions i think makes sense.
the dog and cat and equality business is wrong in my opinion coz God created mankind .. then for mankind God supplied animals in the form of food and vegetables too. all the things have a purpose, some animals we don't know their purpose but i know even cats and dogs are on this earth for a purpose. maybe all the creations serve humans in one way or another.
to your last question why not simply stop. there is a time it will stop... and the whole world is like 10 minutes worth in Gods time zone. just seems longer for us.
quite a lot of mind-bending questions you have ...if i missed anything let me know.
Zygote is a single cell with no color, while a blood clot is many cells got in a cobweb like structure. They are not similar. I was thinking only of the color at that time, I forgot to mention the structure. Even after the single cell stage the zygote is an orderly formation while a clot is haphazard.
I'm not interested in argument from authority. I'll not take a word of the scientist, if what he is says irrational, then why should I consider somebody who lived eons back, who didn't even know half as much as I do(In warfare and farming, they may be better, but that is not our discussion).
I'll elaborate the first example. Can god create a stone he can't lift. If he can create such a stone, that means his power is limited because he can't lift the stone. If can't create such a stone, again his power is limited, see the world itself is an oxymoron. He may the most powerful, but his power has limitations.
It means present everywhere. There will not be any space. With out any space the whole world is one solid block, we won't be able to move around. [Again an infinite object loose a precious quality that make it an object, shape. Without shape an object cannot exist(that we may leave out for the time being)]. The fact that we can move around itself negates omnipresence
Nobody has seen or knows this "god" stuff, then how can anybody know whether it is closer at day or night? Again day at one hemisphere is night at another, so why god choose only one side?
God need help? Then he cannot be omniscient, that is able to see future.
Space is our conceptualization of "nothing" Nothing need not be created, it is always there. If god exist, he should be an object/matter. That means, matter has to predate god, so it again is in no need of creation.
Time is a concept. It need no sun or moon. Any object that can be set as a standard by humans will do.
As time is a concept, you cannot slow it. The maximum you can slow down is your watch, not time.
No, we are the animals with a well developed brain. In all other aspects we are inferior to a good number of animals.
If god does not evolve, how did god popped off suddenly?
My question is, the why god, the most just, select his one creation over other? why he is partial? Partiality and justice will not go together.
i'll be honest ... you have questions that make sense to me yet i do not have the answer to those questions the moment...
It will take time for me to be able to understand everything though, and if i do get answers then will definitely let you know
Yes just like the bible.......poetic.
Qur’an 9:123 “murder them and treat them harshly”
Qur’an 3.28 Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming.
NOTE: By ‘guarding carefully’, a Muslim should deceive the infidel. Acting as a friend is fine as long as it is to benefit the Muslim and protect Islam.
Qur’an 3:56 “As for those disbelieving infidels, I will punish them with a terrible agony in this world and the next. They have no one to help or save them.”
Qur’an 4.89 They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
Qur’an 5:51 “Muslims, do not make friends with any but your own people.”
So much love!
When you begin making claims like that, no one is going to take you seriously.
Credibility = zero.
There is no difference between his and yours claim- fairytale..
One of my favourite things to ask questions about and explore is religion. I myself have put my faith in Christianity and believe that Jesus is the son of God and came to earth to die for my sins. Your asking which word is true and it comes down to a faith matter, my faith is in Christianity and I am constantly shown signs and miracles from God which only strengthens my faith. The bible is the story of Jesus and the things he did as well as his followers, I believe that the bible is the one and only word.
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
On threat of death people will believe anything, even without reading all of it, or understanding what it means.
So this is all true?
Qur’an 8:7 “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels (non-Muslims) out to the last.’”
Qur’an 8:39 “So, fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam.”
Qur’an 8:59 “The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them. They are your enemy and Allah’s enemy.”
yes all true if its from the Quran.
its talking about when muslims were going to war.
i'm sure when americans were preparing for the "war on terror" they got similar orders. i'm sure they were not told to go and hug everyone there.
some facts - 3000 people killed in twin towers
so far over 1 million killed in war on terror most of them would be innocent people i'm sure. like the drones that aim to kill a people in a meeting so say 12 people ... but kills dozens of people around it who are just walking by.
definitely not an eye for an eye...
So the same argument as the bible bashers then, goddunnit, and so it must be OK, and anything horrible is talking about some past event where the omniscient god had to resort to the lowest human denominator.
That is the most amusing thing about religionists, they only see the bits they like as in context.
In reality it does not matter who he was talking to, these statements are clearly neurotic and spoken by a fool.
God is the creator of all written word. Whatever book God declares is "His Holy Book" containing His "Holy Words" That is the book.
the problem here is some have the right to believe in fairies, nothing you say will change there mind ! because their purpose is to make you feel like you are foolish to believe in what you believe! ! have expiernced this for days .for some a play ground to poke fun and and get a reaction from you! some people just get a kick from it. its up to you! as the old saying go fight or switch! whats comes out of is a lot of disrespect and name bashing! people who will never repect your view , and will attack you for expressing it!you will see they are not hard to pick out , they do not believe in God but they will make a lot of comments on invisable fairies! and the bible .Just letting you know !
You said the choice is to fight or switch. You do realize there are other options?
@kiss and tales - i agree with you, but questioning faith is also good to strengthen your own faith ... you also learn more about your own faith by discussing it with them ... they think of things believers would not think of ... so in a way they are doing people a favour.
but some (not all) are hypocrites too ... asking where is the love and respect, yet they show none themselves.
@emile R - there are other options but doesn't seem like it most of the time.
Sorry, but I hope you're not suggesting that believing in fairies to the point of ever changing your mind deserves a command of respect?
@troubled man - having respect for one another leads to meaningful discussions where various people are allowed to have different opinions. if i think and tell you that you are nothing but trash, how do you think that conversation will end? don't respect the person for their beliefs, respect them for being humans equal to you in this world.
That's a personal attack on me, I will simply ignore you for making that attack as it says a whole lot more about you than me. Easy.
I do respect humans, but I need have to respect their irrational beliefs.
I didn't know you were so old that you witnessed god declaring his holy book.
Mighty event, it might have been. Lucky you!
Was there any rock concert there during the declaration ceremony or only hallelujahs?
you're going in the totally wrong direction. you're going against science too... seems like you trust no one.
how do you really know the world is a sphere? did you go out in space and see it for yourself? you might not even believe the nuclear bomb exists because you were never there to witness it... I can give you a thousand examples like that ... Do you have to carry out all the experiments in the world yourself to believe in them? You're limiting youself by not believing in any of it...
No rock concert no hallelujahs...
No. Dave is using the same circular logic that is the topic of this forum. Most religious books written says it is the written word of god. If asked why it is so, everybody says it is written in the book, and if asked why the book is true, they say it is the written word of god. People belonging to the particular sect take only that particular book and reject all others. If you take Dave's case, he accept only bible, while reject all others, even though all other books make the same claim and he has no valid reason for that acceptance or rejection.
Science is a rational explanation of the universe. If it is irrational, it ought to be rejected. Suppose I say there is square circles or married bachelors, will you accept?
Circles by definition can never be square and bachelors by definition cannot be married. So is with everything. It only matters whether the reasoning is right or not.
arksys, are you saying that allah is gonna take aim at me (a definite non believer) with hailstones???
"wherein is hail: He strikes therewith whom He pleases and He turns it away fro whom He pleases."
Funny that. I have logical scientific understanding of how hail forms.
Should I ignore that and say Goddunnit?
Jesus Christ is known as 'The Word'
(In the beginning was 'the word' ) Jesus, and the word (Jesus) was with Him (God)
You meant anti-toxin/anti oxidant?
More in the line of contradiction.
Oh you knew what I meant-never said I was perfect
The soup however is
It is not. May be, it is tasty for you. More like a nauseating thing.
What is The Word?
It was a stunningly bad "youth TV" programme in the 1990s which aired on the UK's Channel 4 and was hosted by Terry Christian (yes, that really was his name).
I like the story of the elephant and the four blind men. Each man was located in various locations around the elephant. The first said, An elephant is like a snake. It has a long, tubular breathing mechanism. The second said, An elephant is like a whip. It thrashes its bush of hair. The third said, No,No! An elephant is a wall of wrinkles. It has little movement and many, many textured ridges. The fourth said, You are all wrong. I have wrapped my arms around the elephant. It is round like a post and has toenails.
To me, this is what all the religions have done- taken a position beside the elephant (God) and claimed they know what others do not. In truth, the elephant has a trunk and a tail and a belly and legs. It is all these things, even as God is all these things.
How can it be different, if God is All?
Uh, the elephant actually exists. fyi.
How about this story, it should be great, it's god's word.
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
The omniscient god didn't know there was anything wrong with a spot of slavery apparently.
earnest ... in the elephant story i think you're standing too close to the elephant's bung hole.
just kiddin ...
slavery was very common in those days, yes ... I do not know the details though therefore cannot talk further on your comment.
The fact that it is a part of "the word of god" is all the clue anyone should need.
How would an omnipotent god be limited intellectually by "those days?"
Should an omniscient god be less aware than your average person who abhors the thought of enslaving another?
How stupid does it get around here? Not recognising the elephant in the room is wilful ignorance.
"In those days," slavery may well have prevailed, but did that mean a god could not see it was wrong because man didn't?
It's a pile of elephant poo...... THAT is what it is! :LOL:
Upstairs fro thinkin, downstairs for dancin.
Maybe there was more good in it than bad at the time. maybe people who were slaves could not make it on their own ... that was a different time, i don't know exactly what the story was with slaves. I know that slaves could arrange a contract to get freed from their owners, those were orders too from God. Just because the average person abhors it now, doesn't mean anything.
at that time people used to lower their heads in shame when a girl was born in their house... they used to even bury their new-born girls alive ... all that was also ordered to be stopped. You choose to miss all those details and concentrate on slavery...
you might not realize it but you choose to ignore things as well... so yeah i agree there is wilful ignorance, but its not limited to believers. do you?
You miss the elephant yet again.
Why would a superior being tolerate abuse in any age at any time regardless of the ignorance surrounding him.
This tiny god can't work out what decency and respect are because the humans around him can't? How is that related to "the times" for a timeless god?
How stupid is this god?
You want me to believe that it is OK that a god is as ignorant as the people around him in the bronze age?
you still didn't answer my question if you agree that you wilfully choose to ignore too?
once again I told you in the start that i don't know much about slavery and i did not want to comment on it untill I have better knowledge.
Does this help?
33:55 "It is no sin for them (thy wives) to converse freely) with their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or the sons of their sisters or of their own women, or their slaves."
Notice that women can talk freely with their slaves? That's what I call Islamic jurisprudence.
Which question do you want answered?
Do you support slavery condoned by a god?
No, slaves couldn't arrange anything, they were slaves, which were abhorred as much then as they are now, especially if you were a slave.
Do you actually know what a slave is?
You have chosen to miss all the details surrounding the fact that even though it may have been ordered stopped, those practices continue today.
I read it in the translation of the Quran and i'll try to find then give you a quote on it, to come to an agreement for release with the slave.
I did mention earlier that i do not know much about the slaves... I haven't chosen to miss it ... i'm not there yet.
you said ... "even though it may have been ordered stopped, those practices continue today."... there are a lot of things that were ordered in the Book yet the wrong practices continue today and probably will go on till the end of time. It's the people who are doing the practicing who are at fault.
And, there are lots of things ordered, condoned, promoted, accepted in the Book that are wrong practices that continue today. It would be much better if they did not go on till the end of time.
It's the Book that is telling people to practice, they are obeying the Book.
Who says slavery was condoned by God? This is the Word question? If something was written in a Holy Book centuries ago, does this make it the Word of God?
This is where the elephant comes in, to my mind! So many blind men attempting to interpret what is an elephant. To claim knowledge in words that describe what is not fully an elephant.
Might it be possible that our understanding of God has evolved and we understand that God is no longer a tyrant or located in one piece of property as in the Old Testament? That it was not God but man's interpretation of God in a social context that gave slavery power? Or the right to sell daughters?
Could it be that God wanted the Internet to connect people so that we begin to understand more what is this elephant versus hold tight to our beliefs as the only right way?
Mulling over things, thinking with my fingers...
The bible is the word, the word is with god according to religions that are bible based (damn near all of them)
The bible makes it clear to anyone who reads it that the god thing is a psychopathic killer.
There is no word dance that can make a god without the only book that supports it, (apart from the qioran) which is simply a copy with a few more threats and a different messenger.
(Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
"However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way."
According to one religion I studied, the Bible records man's spiritual journey through history- its evolution. To them, it is not literal, it is literary.
The "Word is God" is a symbolical way of describing Jesus. "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God." This isn't talking about an actual word. Jesus is the Word.
I wouldn't assume that everyone who reads and discovers God in books like the Bible takes it all literally. Some Religious right do. Many other versions don't. As to "making a God" without a book, well, dance is a way to express God without words at all, as is art and music. Anything creative points toward the Original Creator to those who believe.
Obviously this is my take on the whole question. bird bird bird... yes, love it.
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