Athiest soup kitchen

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   Captain Redbeardposted 12 years ago

   So I was down at the mission last night with my wife hanging out with the pastor there and it occurred to me. I have never seen nor heard of an atheistic mission house. If the scientific community is so much more enlightened than the believers in the Abrahamic religions, then why have they yet to figure out that there are people in need of a hot meal in 12 degree weather?

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      Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Saints and sinners -all get hungry

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      Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      You aren't likely to hear about any hanging out at the mission, no more than you'll hear a sermon about how evolution is true.

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      autumn18posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Why would they need to open a separate soup kitchen or community service? I bet there are atheists working at some of the Christian ones. I know a lot of people like to think that atheists are anti religion but that's not necessarily the case.

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         Captain Redbeardposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         I'm just saying for a certain goups within the atheist group that are desperatly trying to shut down religion in all functions I would think that they would come up with a mission to help their fellow man. If faith is so flawed why is it that there arnt non religious groups out there trying to better the sociaty in which they live? Why does it take the delusional to feed the hungry and clothe the naked? Where are the scientific mission trips to bring water and education to the impoverned areas of the world?

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            cdub77posted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Captain, consider Doctors Without Borders, Greenpeace, Amnesty International, UNICEF, Freedom From Hunger, Mercy Corps etc.  These charities do not always share the same goal or methods, and each should be researched on its on merits, just like religious organizations, though I'm not sure I'd call these organizations or their diverse aims delusional.
            
            Typically, in the secular world, scientists concentrate on science instead of meeting the physical needs of the poor, while specialists in social work, medicine, political science, etc. serve the basic, yet important, needs your post seems preoccupied with. 
            
            Another example of non-Christian group of people trying to better the society in which they live are Humanitarians.  I'm sure you're familiar with the term Humanitarianism and are aware of its distinctly secular grounds for its Christ-like position towards our fellow men.
            
            Hopefully I've given you some places to start your search into what is  going on in the secular world.  Your desire to know is a good thing, remember all ideas are acceptable to those who live by truth, what's the harm in finding out what's really happening out there?
            
            As always, you don't need to end your journey before it's over.  There is an underlying anger in your post that undermines the objectivity of your questions.  I'm sure someone as thoughtful as yourself knows the path to resolving this if you ever want to.  Go with love, brother!

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               Captain Redbeardposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Hey thanks so much for getting at me with the respect and information!
               
               I never meant for there to be any underlying anger anything in the post. It was something that I didn't have straight in my head when asking the question.
               
               Of course there are non christian organizations that do plenty of good work, they just don't go around with a cross on their  "flags" proclaiming to do it all in the interest of a non God so to speak. My post wasn't very well thought out as psycheskinner pointed out to me. Thanks for the response tho!!

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      Cranfordjsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Christians have a lot to make up from the cruel inhumanities conducted throughout its history. Not the other way around.

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         MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Christians don't have to make up for anything except what they, as individuals, have done to others. It is nonsense to think that a modern Christian should be made to pay for the Spanish Inquisition (or whatnot) just the same as it is nonsense to believe that every Muslim should pay because of the WTC.

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            Cranfordjsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I was being sarcastic.

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               Kyle Payneposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               You should learn to better monitor your sarcasm, or just not use it at all. The truth is this, the Spanish inquisition is not as bad as you may think. Granted, it was bad, but in most cases torture never occurred. Torture was only used 1% of the time.

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                  Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Oh, then that's fine.  It was probably a great thing then - what with all the conversions and all. 
                  
                  I wonder what percentage of our prisoners were tortured?  Probably even less than 1% - bully for us!

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                     Cranfordjsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     @kyle
                     
                     Who are you to tell me to "monitor" myself? If I wasn't worried about getting suspended from Hubpages, I would tell you what you could 'monitor'.
                     
                     The "Spanish inquisition" wasn't that bad? Were you there? (rhetorical)

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                        Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        
                        
                        Cool a hubber with fire in his belly,you will go far

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                           Cranfordjsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                           But a timid hubber will, or a hubber who drops off comments that are irrelevant? Maybe a hubber who doesn't mind his or her business? What are the keys to success on hubpages? (Rhetorical, I don't care.)

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                              mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                              Being honest with yourself and others. That is the only true key to success on the HP. But don't go to far with the honesty, some people don't like it.

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                              Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                              A combination of all the above and then some ( I do care)
                              
                              But not as much as scientists discovering a cure for cancer.

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         debleveyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         As a Christian, I am not personally responsible for the wrongdoings of other Christians, thankfully I am only accountable (first to Christ, then to my fellow man) for my OWN wrongdoings!  Which is already a plateful of crap.... but hear me  loud and clear when I tell you that Christians do not do good works  in order to make up for anybody's short comings.  We do good works because our Lord and Master has asked us to do good works.  We obey Him because He has elevated us from 'slavehood' to 'kinship' status by what He has done to make up for all all that we have done, are doing, or ever will do that is wrong! We do not obey Him well, for if we did, the world would be in a much better state of being, and many grievous acts  by Christians who supposed they were acting in His name could have been avoided. But we try our best, and pray for His pardon when we see that we are gone astray. Captain Redbeard makes an exellent point. One may argue that the world's poor downtrodden are the responsibility of ALL humanity, regardless of our individual status as believers or otherwise.  the A&A crowd doesn't seem too interested in helping any one, just controlling those who do not think and feel according to the A&A agenda.

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            MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Wow, you are really excited about this eh?
            
            You know, making blanket statements about atheists and agnostics is kinda judgmental right?  Especially given that you have been given evidence contrary to your opinion in this thread.
            
            It really is easy to villianize those who disagree with you, but it's not very Christian.  Many people don't need a religion to be good and a lot of Christians would help out even if they weren't Christians.
            
            The reason you dont see a lot of "atheist" charities is because, on the whole, atheists don't gather around forming churches to discuss their atheism.  There fore there aren't really aren't "atheist" ran charities.  There are secular charities and plenty of atheists that volunteer at other organizations.  After all, I volunteer for several catholic charities and I'm not catholic... they never asked me on the forms what religion I was at all.

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               debleveyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Figuratively speaking, of course...i certainly do think atheists have an agenda, as I have yet to meet one who didn't cry long and hard for the immediate cessation and criminalization of worship for and to any being higher the the collective human self (ish scoundrels that we may be, regardless) I will concede that I should not lump the poor agnostic in with the dastardly atheist. Agnostics are at least humble enough to admit there is something they don't know.... so to all you agnostics out there, i apologize.

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                  wildernessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  You must run with a very strange crowd; I've never met an atheist that wanted "immediate cessation and criminalization of worship".  Except, of course in those instances when the worshippers demand that everyone around them be forced to join in the fantasy against their will.
                  
                  Or are you one of those fundies that declare everyone in the world MUST be of the same mind as you are and follow your particular interpretation of your holy book?  Whereupon I actually could see atheists (along with anyone of a different religious sect) taking that stand.

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                     Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     Wow!  Those atheists in Nebraska must have to put up with some funky fundies to feel this way.  And I though they were some aggravating believers here in the bible belt! 

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                     debleveyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     As a member of the LCMS in the US, I do admit a penchance for a select few 'fundie' characteristics, but by and large I'm willing to live and let live.  I am NOT WILLING to hide my faith behind closed doors, especially when my constitutional rights guarantee me the right to worship openly, as I so choose. If you don't like it, don't watch and don't listen.  In other words, go away (from where I am worshiping.)

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                  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  And, it has nothing to do with evangelizing, or spreading hatred to homosexuals, or deciding if a pregnant woman should have an abortion, or... the list goes on and on.
                  
                  No one could care less if you worshiped bowling balls, just as long as you keep it behind closed doors where it belongs and not in the public profile.
                  
                  Scoundrels, indeed.

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            Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            
            
            The A & A agenda?  What's that? I'm agnostic. Nobody told me about an agenda. I feel like such a mushroom.

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               Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Sheesh - I sent you the talking points!
               
               This week the agenda is "New and creative ways to worship the Dark Lord while presenting a public face of atheism/agnosticism"
               
               You didn't get that?

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            A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Yes, you believe your "special" and the rest of us are just fodder. Yeah, we get that.
            
            
            
            Hilarious, Christians believe they have not done enough damage to our world and humanity, but should do more.
            
            
            
            Yes, ALL humanity, not Christians.

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            wordscribe43posted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Wow, now THAT'S a sweeping, blanket statement if I've ever heard one!  Be careful with that, would you?  I'm an atheist, also have my MSW and have dedicated many, many years of my life helping people.  I had to take a sabbatical from my career after my twins were born, but I continue to volunteer many hours of my time helping the people in our community...  I DO help out in a soup kitchen, in the Oregon Food Bank.  I am "interested in helping", fyi!  However, I choose to do so without all the proselytizing baggage of an organized church.  By the way, there are atheist groups popping up everywhere that do community outreach. 
            
            What "agenda" are you talking about?  I have no interest in controlling believers, not at all.  I don't like to be preached to or chastised for my lack of belief, however. 
            
            Your statement represents a lot of dichotomous thinking.  Therefore, it's a far cry from the truth.

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               autumn18posted 12 years agoin reply to this

               I agree. It just shows ignorance that people think Atheists and Agnostics do not help the needy.

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               debleveyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               I'm glad you're doing something to help.  I don't claim to be right about everything. I don't expect you to take my words for concrete truth.  they represent my personal perspective and experiences. I haven't met you so my words still seem true to me. I have yet to meet an atheist without an 'agenda' regarding we of faith.

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                  psycheskinnerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  You've just met one,  hello.

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                     debleveyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     wow...kewl...psycheskinner, what's your sign?

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      A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Wow, the superiority of it all.
      
      Did you know that your mission doesn't pay taxes on its revenues? That kind of makes it pretty easy to open a soup kitchen when free money is coming in the door every week and the pastor works half a day a week.
      
      That, amongst the many non-Christian charity institutions in the world didn't seem to stop you from creating this thread.

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         Captain Redbeardposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         How do you know how long or hard the pastor works? lol Besides, I already conceeded to the point made by Psycheskinner just below here......But you probably over looked at as you do most things just to cause trouble.
         T
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         debleveyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         In the US, no charity with  501C certification pays taxes on revenues, Troubled Man, and free money does not flow in through the doors of any charity I've ever worked with; faith-based or otherwise.  the point, the reason why they don't pay taxes? because they are providing community services and social services at little or no cost to the government...and in doing so, carrying part of the load that social service demands create for federal state and local budgets...wow imagine that!!!

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            A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I can't imagine, but it would appear you have.
            
            We aren't talking about charities, we're talking about the free money churches receive from their flock.

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               debleveyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               and i am talking about all charities, including churches.Churches would be a subset of the set ----> charities.  That's because churches do good works. It's kinda their 'thing.' makes em feel all happy and worthwhile. Of course there are exceptions to every rule, but most churches I know have 501c certification. They have to if their members want to claim a tax deduction based on money donated to charity.

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                  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  But, they aren't, churches are places of worship and indoctrination.
                  
                  
                  
                  No, they don't, they propagate and evangelize lies and reaffirm brainwashing .
                  
                  
                  
                  That's because they are not worthwhile.
                  
                  
                  
                  Yes, charities, not churches.

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                     debleveyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     i see you are one of those people who doesn't think it is possible for a thing to fit into two cagagories, but the truth is this...a church can be a place of worship and a charity. My church uses the moneys donated for the administration of services, wages of church worrkers, care of the grounds and building....everything above and beyond that goes to missions local and abroad. Some are administrated by us...others by others. Beyond being a place of worship, my church has a mission to feed the poor, visit the sick, comfort the dying and those they leave behind, etc. etc. So as you can plainly see we do have a sense of purpose beyond worship and...as you say...indoctrination.  Why don't you come visit us?  You may find a spiritual home here...

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                        A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        Yeah, I get that. There are about 28 categories of non-profit organizations under the 501C, but it is only religions that have an underlying agenda, that of conversions. The churches use the 501C as a way to do that as their agenda is a command from Jesus which outranks everything else.
                        
                        
                        
                        Yes, while other organizations must pay taxes before they pay wages and operational costs.
                        
                        
                        
                        Not really, the purpose is conversions of the sick, they dying and those they leave behind.   
                        
                        
                        
                        What is a spiritual home? Is that where spirits live? Spirits have never been shown to exist, fyi.

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                           debleveyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                           You are just so uninformed...let me tell you a little about my own personal story.  I happen to be a recovering addict with 5 years recovery from active addiction to methamphetamines. At the beginning of my recovery, I spent 6 months in rehab at a facility owned and operated by Cathoilc Charities under the Omaha, NE archdioses. A.  I am not a Catholic. B. I was never approached or preached to about becoming a Catholic, or a Christian for that matter.  C. The services I received included room, board, medical, pschiatric and psychological care, community social services,and my medications were paid for. D. Those services cost me NOTHING.  They cost the state of Nebraska NOTHING. They cost the US government NOTHING. The same services saved my life, repaired the fabric of my family, my community of friends, my sense of well being and purpose.  I was a (backsliding) Christian before addiction took my life hostage,  I am reinvested in my faith not because of indoctrination of any kind, but because I saw God work in my life, I felt God work in my life, I met God once again on the road to hell, and on the road back. Do not tell me its all about conversion...its about saving the lost so they can decide for themselves. They know we are Christians by our LOVE, by what we do...not what we say. You know nothing.  I pray for you.

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                              A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                              
                              
                              
                              
                              That is pure baloney and you know it. Everything that brought you back from addiction had everything to do with science and people and nothing to do with your imaginary god.
                              
                              You met God?
                              
                              
                              
                              

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                                 debleveyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                 I pray that some day should you find yourself flat on your back with nowhere to look but up your will meet Him too.  For your sake.  And His.  Because He wants nothing more than your salvation.  I however wh deserves  think you are a pathetic cretin who deserves...much less. i pray His forgiveness. I still have a long way to go.
                                 You know nothing about addiction recovery.  Even science says it is a spiritual process. Science has proven this...the first best treatment for addiction is a spiritual awakening. All the pills and psychotherapy and nutrition and behavior modification mean nothing without a spiritual awakening, an inward change in the way the addict thinks and feels and acts. Science can't touch that, it only points the way. Einstein stated, "religion without science is blind. science without religion is lame." Let me rephrase..."science without faith is folly, a pathetic joke, meaningless, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing,"

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                                    MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                    Honestly, had you just told your story and left it at that, I would have actually came to your defense with ATM.  I believe that the definition of "witnessing" is basically a humble recount of what Christ has done in your life.
                                    
                                    HOWEVER, the second you said "I'll pray for you" whether you know it or not you used your belief to insult someone else.
                                    
                                    If you don't understand why that is then imagine how you would feel if a satanist said that he'd put a good word for you with the dark lord.
                                    
                                    So you deserve what he does to you.  Good luck.

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                                       debleveyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                       This is a public forum.  i have a voice and a right to state what  i think and feel and say and do, as do you. My faith requires my witness. Go ahead and pray to your gods for me...your devils as well pray to satan, go ahead.  He'll tell you he's given up on me, I'm a lost cause to him and he doesn't want me because he's afraid I'll take over. The Lord did not give me a spirit of fear, and I stand up to the dark lardass and say 'bless you...God bless you and all that you are and say and do...bless you all eternity, bless you!!!!! Bless all you atheists whether you like it or not.GOD BLESS ALL OF  YOU!!!!! In Jesus name and by virtue of His precious Blood, BLESS EVERYONE! Amen.   (Am i foaming at the mouth yet/  nothing like a little spiritual escasty (sic) in  the morning to pick you right up...where's my coffee...i'm just getting started!!!!!

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                                          A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                          I wouldn't call that "spiritual ecstasy" but instead something else that resembles foaming at the mouth.

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                                          MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                          I'll be damned, I never thought I would see someone TYPE in tongues.  Good luck with all that.
                                          
                                          And I'm sure that Jesus loves being used as an insult, but whatever.  I leave you Christians to all that.  I'm just a follower of Christ afterall.

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                                    wordscribe43posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                    Please provide a valid scientific reference/link for the above statement.  Links to studies would be great.
                                    
                                    What do you think the TRUE numbers of success in NA and AA are?  What is the percent of remission for people involved in these programs?

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                                       mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                       AA and NA have about a 3o% success ratio, for it realy only helps if the individual realy wants help.

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                                          wordscribe43posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                          Where do you get that statistic?

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                                             mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                             When my mother died I went on a search for suffring greater than mine, then I decided to see it through the eyes of pure desire and suffering. I saw that ego was the only reason anyone truly does anything and that the succesful participants were able to set aside their ego and confront their desires head on. This is based on information gathered in their own statistical averages, as is written about in AA and NA litterature.

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                                                wordscribe43posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                                Some studies and results for you... there are many more.
                                                
                                                "In 1996, The National Longitudinal Alcoholism Epidemiological Survey was designed by the NIAAA and conducted by the US Bureau of the Census. The survey was large, both in terms of people, tens of thousands, and in terms of time, 20 years. Deborah A. Dawson, of the NIAAA, filtered out 4585 subjects who had displayed standard DSM-IV Alcohol Abuse and Dependency symptoms, and analyzed those people. There were populations of people who had not received any treatment, and those who had. The commonest treatment modality by far was the A.A. Twelve-Step "spiritual therapy." The treatments were a cross section of all of the standard treatments used in the USA, which means that at least 85% — probably 93%11 — of the treatment programs were based on the A.A. Twelve-Step program. The results were: 20 years after the onset of alcoholism symptoms, 80% of those who had undergone treatment were either abstinent, or "drinking without abuse or dependence." But, of those who had never received any treatment, 90% were either abstinent or drinking non-problematically.
                                                
                                                When we flip those numbers around, expressing them as failure rates rather than as success rates, we get: After 20 years, 10% of the untreated people still had drinking problems, while 20% of the treated people still had drinking problems. It would appear that the treatment programs actually had a negative effect, with twice as many treated people as untreated people still having drinking problems after 20 years."
                                                
                                                And
                                                
                                                The two randomized studies in which AA treatment was assigned found AA to yield worse outcomes than other forms of treatment — or no treatment at all.
                                                
                                                (See Brandsma et al., The Outpatient Treatment of Alcoholism: A Review and Comparative Study, Baltimore: University Park Press, 1980;
                                                Ditman et al., "A controlled study on the use of court probation for drunk arrests," American Journal of Psychiatry, 124:160-163, 1967.)
                                                
                                                But Walsh et al. ("A randomized trial of treatment options for alcohol-abusing workers", The New England Journal of Medicine, 325:775-782, 1991) allowed alcoholics limited choices, and those who chose AA still did worst (about as bad as those assigned to AA).
                                                AA's role in society — more negative than positive?
                                                http://www.peele.net/faq/aarole.html
                                                
                                                A.A. and N.A. have at least 90% failure rates. And the real numbers are more like 95% or 98% or 100% failure rates. It depends on who is doing the counting, how they are counting, and what they are counting or measuring.
                                                
                                                A 5% success rate is nothing more than the rate of spontaneous remission in alcoholics and drug addicts. That is, out of any given group of alcoholics or drug addicts, approximately 5% per year will just wise up, and quit killing themselves.6 They just get sick and tired of being sick and tired, and of watching their friends die. (And something between 1% and 3% of their friends do die annually, so that is a big incentive.) They often quit with little or no official treatment or help. Some actually detox themselves on their own couches, or in their own beds, or locked in their own closets. Often, they don't go to a lot of meetings. They just quit, all on their own, or with the help of a couple of good friends who keep them locked up for a few days while they go through withdrawal. A.A. and N.A. true believers insist that addicts can't successfully quit that way, but they do, every day. 
                                                
                                                PS:  I've been sober since 1995, I'm a CADC and an MSW.
                                                
                                                PPS:  Bill Wilson is an Enron-style accountant.  His stats were horrifically skewed.

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                                                   mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                                   I quit doing many things based soley by will. I read a paper done by a recovering alchoholic that averaged the statistics, he came up with a 30% success rate. If the organization is producing higher numbers, it's probably looking for more members. If I told you my business had an average success rate of 95%, I'm sure you'd buy into it to. But that's how businesses operate.
                                                   http://youtu.be/rm2J7GF44Io

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                                    A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                    No, you've been brainwashed to believe that. You haven't met any sky daddies and neither has anyone else, and anyone would be lying if they said they did.
                                    
                                     
                                    
                                    Thank you so much, I really appreciate that. Was that the "good Christian" talking there?
                                    
                                    
                                    
                                    That is a blatant lie, science says no such thing.
                                    
                                    
                                    
                                    Pure baloney.
                                    
                                    
                                    
                                    Gibberish.
                                    
                                    
                                    
                                    No, that's not what Einstein meant at all. Too bad believers must dishonestly change the meaning of that statement to support their irrational beliefs. Sad indeed.

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                                    Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                    Wow. I think you showed the value of the spirit you possess when you called the person in disagreement with you a pathetic cretin.

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                                       debleveyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                       that wasn't even an insult, that was a comparison. Do you even know what it alludes to?
                                       
                                       pathetic: causing or invoking pity
                                       cretin:Origin:
                                       1770–80;  < French; Franco-Provençal creitin, crestin  human being, literally, Christian  (hence one who is human despite deformities)
                                       
                                       oh I'm so sorry I called him a Christian despite the fact that he invokes my pity and is obviously (to me) deformed in his thoughts. The science is good...ask the top ten leading experts (world wide) on the treatment of substance abuse and addiction whether spirituality (i.e. faith in a higher power) is an essential component of recovery and I'll bet you 7 out of ten 9regardless of spiritual disposition, will say that it is.  I never mentioned a religion or any specific fellowship when I said spirituality is the answer to addiction.  i said a spiritual awakening is required, That is my opinion, based on what I have observed and experienced in my own recovery from addition. Again, the science is good...troubled man, you are the one who is lying to yourself. Emile...whatever...go read a dictionary...

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                                          wordscribe43posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                          According to whom?  What science?  AA's success rates are pitiful, do your research.  Their very own questionnaires will show you that!
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          Hmmm... Again, where's your proof?  The ones who say spirituality is necessary ARE inclined to be spiritual, after all.  I care way more about statistics, success rates, recidivism rates, how many people are dropping out of these programs (AA has a very high drop-out rate).  Pretty sure many pioneers in the field of addiction would beg to differ.  Jerry Jaffe, Brodsky, Peele, Ellis, Jack Trimpey most certainly would... just to name a few.  I'm also pretty convinced the members of non-12 step groups like Rational Recovery, SMART Recovery and Women for Sobriety would have a thing or two to say about that.  Myself being one of them....
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          Exactly, that is your opinion based on nothing but your own observations.  Have you been to any alternative recovery groups?  Guess what, I attended AA for over 5 years.  What I saw was nothing short of shocking- people dropping out left and right, relapsing, dying, etc...  I worked all the steps many, many times.  I don't think opinions and observations hold a lot of weight here, though.  If they did, I'd tell you how I see WAY more recovery in non-12 step groups. Guess what?  A spiritual awakening isn't required for long-term recovery.
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          Na, the science isn't good at all.  Sorry.  And as for troubled man lying to himself, now you see that's where it all went wrong for me in AA.  Why are you judging him?  You don't know him and whether or not he's lying to himself.  Can you see how that's just a bit condescending?  You're judging him merely because he's a non-believer.

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                                          wordscribe43posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                          cre·tin
                                             [kreet-n or, especially Brit., kret-n] Show IPA
                                          noun
                                          1.
                                          a person suffering from cretinism.
                                          2.
                                          a stupid, obtuse, or mentally defective person.
                                          
                                          From Dictionary.com
                                          
                                          cre·tin  (krtn)
                                          n.
                                          1. A person afflicted with cretinism.
                                          2. Slang An idiot.
                                          
                                          From the Free Dictionary
                                          
                                          Definition of CRETIN
                                          1
                                          often offensive : one afflicted with cretinism
                                          2
                                          : a stupid, vulgar, or insensitive person : clod, lout
                                          — cre·tin·ous adjective
                                          See cretin defined for English-language learners »
                                          See cretin defined for kids »
                                          Examples of CRETIN
                                          
                                              <a cretin who's constantly forwarding e-mails filled with racist and sexist jokes>
                                              <in discussions anyone who disagrees with her is inevitably called a cretin>
                                          
                                          From Merriam-Webster
                                          
                                          
                                          The most accepted definition of this word has very negative connotations.  I'm thinking you're back-paddling just a tad.

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                                          Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                          Please, post more. You've simply driven my point home with your attempt at clarification. You can't sidestep what your intent was, without showing an inability to accept personal responsibility for your actions.

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                                             wordscribe43posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                             Her "definition" came from here:  http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cretin
                                             
                                             She just left out the main entry:  the actual definition.    You know, the part that says this:
                                             
                                             cre·tin
                                                [kreet-n or, especially Brit., kret-n]
                                             noun
                                             1.
                                             a person suffering from cretinism.
                                             2.
                                             a stupid, obtuse, or mentally defective person.
                                             
                                             Seemingly, she's forgotten this part of the 12 Steps: "when we were wrong, promptly admitted it." 

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                                                Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                                I don't know anything about the twelve steps, but I do know stubborn pride. I've found it easiest to simply admit when I was wrong and apologize. It's definitely easier than digging a bigger hole for myself.

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                                          A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                          I'll take that bet, what are the stakes?
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          But, what's good for the goose may not necessarily be good for the gander.
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          

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   psycheskinnerposted 12 years ago

   There are a lot of charities that are not overtly religious--some of them will be atheist but not rubbing it in your face.  I volunteer, but I don't tell anyone I help that I am an atheist.  Why would I?
   
   And I don't know where you get the idea that that many atheist or atheist groups are trying to shut down religion. there is nothing wring with religious charities so long as they don't use it as a basis to brow beat or discriminate.
   
   You seem to be equating religion directly with atheism and atheism directly with science.  that leads to false expectations.
   
   But as it happens there are huge scientifically-based charity works, for example in the area of agriculture teaching people how to prevent erosion an co-cop three perennials rather than one annual and so be much less likely to starve in drought

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      Captain Redbeardposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Point taken I am blurring lines here.

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         Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         I'm nor religious or atheist, the atheist are low in population or groups and prefer to support humanity by other means.
         
         From visiting a number of mission, most are too dangerous with diseases low in nutrition foods and thieves, so many homeless prefer the streets or hospital like in Canadian and it's winters. Mainly only if it's totally the last resort these people will take the chance with mission.
         
         My design for homeless survival is their own ownership of a mini home with green house which would save the Government $40,000 each person and each year before homeless become jailed and in Hospitals.
         That much cheaper than giving them gi

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            Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            To the last part
            That much cheaper than giving them gifts in which they rarely can give back to society in a healthier way.

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   Emile Rposted 12 years ago

   Maybe they took the words to heart about 'when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.'
   
   Maybe atheists do a lot of charitable things in secret.

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      psycheskinnerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Or maybe we just do a lot of charity work, full stop. How many shelter dog walkers, meals on wheels drivers, or tree planters have you personally vetted for religious affiliation or lack thereof?

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         Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Because unlike some Christians, we don't usually bring up our beliefs.. We don't wear crosses, either. 
         
         You wouldn't know we are atheists unless you asked.

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         Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         It really wasn't my question. I could care less what affiliation one has when it comes to religion. Or what philosophical leanings a person has when doing charity work..
         
         Although, sorry, I don't consider helping out walking dogs as charity work.

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   Pcunixposted 12 years ago

   Because unlike some, we have no need to convert anyone. 
   
   We just help. No strings. 
   
   For example: http://www.kiva.org/community
   
   Notice who is always on top.  Note that the people we help are usually religious.

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      Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Don't muddy up the thread with facts, PC! 

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      Captain Redbeardposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Thanks for the link Pcunix. Never heard of them before.

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   steveamyposted 12 years ago

   and ..by the way ...not all Christians spend time at the soup kitchen.

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      Captain Redbeardposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      By the way, I never said they did.

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   MelissaBarrettposted 12 years ago

   The members of my fellowship average around 15-20 hours per week in volunteer work.  Many of them are atheists. About 70 percent of our donations are actually ear-marked for the local soup kitchen too... the other 30 go to (mostly) animal shelters unless something special comes up.  I would go into depth about this but I already have in posts before.
   
   I personally aim for 20 hours of volunteer work a week but have fallen short a lot in the last three or four weeks.  Mainly because I can't work at the local cat rescue organization until Jr. gets here.

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      Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Jesus is coming?  Oh that's right...I forgot you were expecting a new child!  Whew, when you said Jr....!  How long? 

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         MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Estimated beginning of August.  I say estimate because the ultrasounds so far aren't clear enough to give an exact answer... or more precisely they've give two answers 3 weeks apart from the other and the traditional ways of establishing due date don't really work in my situation.
         
         So I guess when he/she gets here is my official answer

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            Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            A long way to go, huh!  They know what causes that now, you know!  Good luck! 

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               MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               I haven't heard a conclusive answer on what causes it.  Some say it is God.  I tend to agree with that because what the atheists say causes it is, quite frankly, quite a bit disturbing.  Still, just to be on the safe side I plan on removing the alleged offending bits on my hubby with a pair of scissors before it can happen again.
               
               Thank you for the well wishings though

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                  Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  A straight raor is easier.

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                  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Are you trained in doing home vasectomies too! 

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                     MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     *wickedevilgrin* Not at all.

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            Hollie Thomasposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Congratulations, Melissa! I had no idea.

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            MP50posted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I think anyone who does any charity work, from either side gets my vote, well done.

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      Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Of course most Christians don't know that UU's can be atheists..

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         MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Actually, I've ran into the other opinion more often.  They seem to think we all are.  The really ignorant seem to think we are Satan-worshipers at worst, heathens at best.

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            Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Well, you are Satan worshipers, right?  That's what atheists do.  I prefer to worship at home because your pentagrams get so crowded - you can't get near to the demons with so many people trying to get closer.
            
            The wife and  I just finished up our Black Mass.   Gotta love that old time religion!

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               MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                 The black robes get so itchy in hot rooms too...
               
               And thanks for the straight razor suggestion.  Usually I just use mine for animal sacrifices, but I guess it would save rust on my good sewing shears that way!  You are a wealth of information PC.

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                  Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  The big advantage is the "shaving" excuse.  It's hard to convince someone you just want to neaten the shrubbery when wielding scissors.

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   habeeposted 12 years ago

   I knew a fellow teacher who was an atheist, and he was one of the kindest, most compassionate, and most giving people I've ever known. Christians and Christian organizations do a lot of good work, but they certainly don't hold a monopoly on charity and good deeds.

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   Druid Dudeposted 12 years ago

   To feed those who have no food is illogical. (Not really, but I'm sure those who don't believe in god have some argument to back up my statement.) So concerned about what someone else believes. How touching.

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   icountthetimesposted 12 years ago

   I know a great many charitable people from all backgrounds. Just because some people don't grandstand about how charitable they are (e.g athiest soup kitchen) it doesn't mean that they aren't helping. We could have the "blue eyed soup kitchen" too, but what would be the point? It's about helping people not advertising a belief system or arbitray characteristic.

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