I've been told that Christians of at least one sect believe it is OK to lie to people outside of their sect. They dub it 'spiritual warfare'.
Does anyone know, is this a standard Christian belief? Is it OK to lie to, and about, others who aren't Christian? Are there levels of what is labeled sin, depending on who the Christian is dealing with?
But as for the cowards and the ignoble and the contemptible and the cravenly lacking in courage and the cowardly submissive, and as for the unbelieving and faithless, and as for the depraved and defiled with abominations, and as for murderers and the lewd and adulterous and the practicers of magic arts and the idolaters (those who give supreme devotion to anyone or anything other than God) and all liars (those who knowingly convey untruth by word or deed)—[all of these shall have] their part in the lake that blazes with fire and brimstone. This is the second death.
It is not OK to lie. I know of no Christian sect that believes it is OK to lie but I do not know them all either.
Agua gave a good answer.
Read all about it @ http://www.mormonwiki.org/Lying_for_the_Lord
That would be true if you consider the LDS as Christian - which I do not. What I find strange is the Mitt Romney is the ONLY Mormon in his family. Which is a fitting cult for a lying sociopath that he is.
Please vote in on my poll @ http://ptosis.hubpages.com/hub/Book-of-Mitt on the question of:
"Does being a devout Mormon require an ethos of systematic lying because LDS is a sociopathic theosophy?"
It's no wonder people get so disgusted with Christians sometimes. This is appalling. It is never okay to lie, period, especially - ESPECIALLY - under the guise of leading someone to the Lord. It is most definitely NOT a standard Christian belief (along mainline Christians, that is - those who believe that Christ was the Messiah and Son of God, that after his crucifixion, he was indeed resurrected, and that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, thus establishing a trinitarian God). If indeed the sect of which you speak is the Mormons - their core beliefs do not include those stated above, so they may call themselves Christians, they do not fall under mainline Christian belief.
Spiritual warfare happens outside of our sight in the 'spiritual' realm. It happens between angels and demons who battle for influence over the souls of humanity. In general, Christians believe that our fervent and sincere prayer can strengthen those fighting for good in the spiritual realm, lying is most certainly not one of the ways to do so.
Now, Cags. You know they are in my belief structure. And you and I disagree on that quite respectfully.
I just have to clarify the mainline understanding of my faith when it's so poorly communicated as it has been to Emile.
Hey, just because I'm younger than you doesn't make you an OLD man!
uhhhh... I am not sure that the fact that some people believe Christians lie should make you disgusted with Christianity. Christianity (and most religions for that matter) condemn lying in any form. If we get disgusted every time someone accuses Christianity for believing something the it doesn't actually believe, we are always going to be disgusted. Maybe I missed what you are saying.
I am not appalled that someone would accuse us of something as that isn't what I believe Emile was doing. It is appalling to me that there are indeed people who call themselves Christians, but believe that lying to people who are not is okay.
I am never, under any circumstances, disgusted with God or Jesus. But occasionally Christians do appalling things, and it is those individuals with whom I get frustrated.
I've been walking with the Lord far too long to have any illusions about His church.
You are right. It is easy to equate the disappointing behavior of a zealot to all of Christianity. And it isn't fair, however; Christians, as a group, send confusing and mixed signals that allow the behavior to be questioned.
Christians have no problem speaking out in favor of enacting laws that inhibit our freedoms as individuals. Because of their 'faith'. They have no problem making it clear that those they judge outside of their faith structure will suffer eternally.
Christians go out of their way on this site to be their unbelieving brother's keepers.. But rarely does a Christian speak out against any outlandishly antisocial and delusional behavior pattern of anyone who labels themself a Christian.
A Christian can make any claim they want in the name of Christianity and almost every other Christian on this site will bow to their right to claim it.
So, if Christians speak out against anyone who isn't Christian; but defend other Christians by either giving them an occasional'Amen' or stand back and not argue in defense of reason. What is the non believer to think? Christians appear to support the lies.
Silence implies consent. Especially on a site where no one minds speaking in defense of their beliefs.
Since Christianity is present here in an attempt to be their brother's keeper (by insisting Christianity is the way) why does it not also speak out against those in its ranks who have clearly lost their way?
In Exodus 2, the Hebrew midwives lied to protect the lives of newborn infants. Although lying is always condemned in the Bible, these midwives did not come under any criticism for what they did. If I could save someone's life by lying, I would probably do it (in the same way that people lied to the Nazis during World War II to protect Jews from the death camps. This means that there is a general principle at work where we need to use wisdom in the face of terribly difficult situations.
Telling someone about the gospel can certainly be viewed as a "life and death" situation, but it is not the same as having Nazis with guns knocking on the door and asking if you are hiding Jews in your house. In the case of sharing the gospel of Jesus, there is never a time where lying is either condoned by the Christian religion or useful in terms of helping a person to understand. This is especially true since it is not our words but the work of the Holy Spirit that will open the eyes of a person who does not see. The Holy Spirit just uses our words as a tool.
Our Father God "Hates" all sin. Lying no matter who it is to or about is still lying. "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor." Christian or not.
Lying is definitely OK if it would save a person's life. If a genocidal crowd was at your door demanding if you're harboring any unwanted outcasts then it would be morally right to hide a defenseless would be victim. Or to save your own life, it could be possible to say, "No! I killed them yesterday and had them for breakfast this morning. I love to join you in your killing rampage but I'm a bit full right now." (liarliar)
"Over the course of three months, over 100,000 people were slaughtered. Women were raped and murdered and people were being cut down right and left. Everyone who didn't go into hiding was hacked to pieces. Immaculee took refuge in a Hutu pastor's bathroom with seven other women and spent three months living there with very little food, and almost no talking for fear of being found out and killed." - http://youthvoices.net/discussion/left- … -ilibagiza
Maybe that's what Hell is for.
To seperate those who refuse [meaning "I'll never change"] to do anything except destroy and bring pain, from those who love God and do good, which is all His law consists of.
Now that type of Lying... to Save the Life of someone from injustice... is quite another matter... But.. the funny thing about it is that God has the power to make it possible for you to "Tell the Truth" and still conceal... Like the missionary who was smuggling Bibles into Romania and was stopped and asked whats in the trunk "Ha ha... Its full of Christian Literature" to which the guard laughed and said... "get out here you.... ha ha everyone a joker tonight"
I've never been taught that lying is okay in my Christian background, ever, or for any reason. In fact, they (we) rather frown on it.
I was always told that spiritual warfare was standing about with other Christians and "binding and silencing" demons and fallen angels that "have strongholds" over cities, towns, districts, and suburbs. By ranting and raving and speaking in tongues, one could force these dark forces to leave an area to enable the Holy Spirit to come in and convict souls.
However I understand that the Quran permits lying in three circumstances: to bring reconciliation between Muslim brothers, a man and a wife, and when waging Jihad against the infidels.
That's the tourist version!
The reality is that sometimes we come up against spiritual forces of the enemy, and we need to exert and explain Christ's authority to them before they leave the situation we proclaim over.
Ranters and ravers are more a spectacle than an effective force.
My spiritual warfare is only done when needed, and normally quite silently or at least discreetly.
The enemy is not deaf, just persistent and deceptive.
No.. Christians do have any such rule like that.. you are referring to something Muslim related... Christians follow the Bible and the Bible says:
John 8: 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
Revelations 21: 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Not only christians, but all people of other religions lie on a regular basis. Little lies are usually hidden in religious text.
Lying is part of human nature and no one is immune form it. People lie to protect what they own, likewise government officials lie to protect the citizens from knowing the real truth about events.
O.K., it's not 72 virgins, it's only 71. Does anyone get how materialistic that is? How male oriented, how boot on the neck of the world, that really sounds? How about "Drink my blood and eat my body!" Ritualistic cannibalism. Bathing in the blood of the lamb? Sounds pretty blatant to me....no lies there. But, boy, what ablockbuster horror flick that would make!
It's not about killing Druid.. lol - It's about saving. When doctors inject most medicines.. Where do they put it bud? LOL - THE BLOOD.
Christ is the Spiritual healer, and life giver. "The power's in the blood.." ya know?
I can tell you people with watered down Christianity have much more faith than me, God bless them for it. I had to put some of those pieces together before I was assured so well.
It's the replacement blood, in effect, the "life" blood - like when someone needs a transfusion because of contamination or similar.
And why do you think vampires drink blood? Where'd that idea come from?
They are stealing life from innocent people. That's why they're evil.
Christ is the opposite. A lot of things you see relating to evil, if looked at correctly cause the Holy Bible to make perfect sense.
It amazes me the insights little demons throw on a massive screen that people overlook not just day to day, but year after year of watching horrer films.
"Look, vector said demons are real! Delusional Christian!"
lol, yep I did. III knowww somethinggg youuu don't knowww..
Actually most meds are injected IM or taken orally... but please continue...
Lol.. Thats what i was thinking but i wasnt sure. The only time ive had anything injected into my bloodstream was through iv.
That's because the IV is already there and there is no additional risk of infection. Otherwise IV injections are mainly used for narcotics because the CNS is hit quickly that way... which is why illegal drug users use it so much. I guess the absolute quickest way would be the spinal cord... So the true path of power likely lies in spinal fluid... technically.
I was finished. Thanks for trolling, but I'll bite anyway.
Where would all that medication go once those actions you mentioned took place?
As does everything that travels through your body.
If we wanted to troll, we'd be making fun of the fact that you believe in vampires.
I don't believe in vampires..
And that trolling comment was for who I replied to and was a compliment to boot thank you very much.. lol...
She got me to bite. [at an expense though]
Its not my lack of focus. Youre nonsense is difficult to sift through most of the time.
*Shrugs* I might have been trolling... However in honesty is was more like a mini thread-hijack. I got bored with the original topic but found a point further in on which I wanted to debate.
If it was injected into spinal fluid it would go straight to the brain without ever entering the blood system. Blood and spinal fluid are a really bad mix.
Some drugs taken orally stay within the digestive tract because they are intended to treat digestive problems... same with IMs... they stay withing the muscle because they are supposed to.
Other medications enter the plasma (which is the clear stuff that carries red blood cells) and are transported that way. Red blood cells mostly just carry oxygen.
Thanks for all that.
The life is still dependant upon the blood. Lots of other things can kill us, but vampires, [depiction of evil] don't suck spinal fluid, they suck BLOOD. lol
Then technically it's lack of oxygen you die from... not blood loss... Not a doc... just know a frack of a lot about blood. Wrote a hub about it... worked for Red Cross Biomed for five years.
Fair is not the question.
Well, in the case of Christianity it's not the question.
Was what Christ suffered for us fair for Him???
Christ would not have lied to save someone I don't believe, because if they tell the truth then who can hurt them?
Is Christ not standing at the door to greet those who do "good" and flee from all sin, including lying?
Isn't lying the attribute Christ said was of the Devil and his children, not of God's children?
Yes, God forgives His children, but I don't think lying is saying anything more than, "Christ can't save my soul." or "I'm afraid of death." or even "God doesn't have the final say."
We can justify anything we like with our little excuses, but God still sees every deed done, and still has power over the end result, so why change His rules? Because we think we can fix things?
Just for the record. I hope no God fearing Christian ever lies to save my life here on earth. I'd rather be with the Lord, and would rather not be the cause for another sin that needs to be forgiven.
Christ my King suffered on the cross to forgive. Not to allow me to lie when I see fit. Forgiveness is for those who are learning, not for those who defy knowingly.
God can weed out the good intentions and who doesn't mean bad, but I don't think we should sin under any circumstance. God rewards those who suffer well. Matthew 5 is a strong reason to keep in the way of righteousness if one follows Christ.
Jesus didn't say He came to make life easy here. He came to save us from taking part in what sin ultimately causes...
Complete seperation from God the Father. The source of all things good.
There is no need to be so melodramatic. If God exists, I find it hard to believe he is.
A lie, told to thwart evil, doesn't sound like a sin to me. Does this Christian God seriously insist that those who follow it leave reason at the door?
I'd lie to save your life Vector; if your existence was in danger because of someone such as Hitler.. And I'd feel good about myself for doing it.
The shell game, distraction, illusion, misdirection, slieght(?) of hand, veiled truth. All are fine weapons for a spiritual warrior.
It's called deceit, which is opposite of truth.
I don't need your lie, I have God.
I appreciate your concern, sincerely.. but my fear of death didn't disappear because I got brave. It's because I truthfully know God exists and Christ came to pay for my sins and show me my Father in Heaven.
No, reasoning is essential. If you know God is real and whoever dies is taken care of by Him correctly [some people think God's dumb, which I think speaks plenty about what they know about Him] then why lie?
Did Christ lie to save Himself? Did the prophets lie to save themselves? Is the account of a few sins, when so many sins are recorded in the Bible, the standard for what we should do? Or should we go with the hundreds and hundreds of times Godly men told the truth even when it didn't mean a fun ride?
I think the problem is too many people think they should "change" this or "smudge" that to "help" God out. If the people needed saving, God would certainly save them if it was in His will.
In fact, He came to save everyone already, and at that from our sins, including deceit. Lies.
Now of course, the difference is if one truly believes in Christ and that He is God and that God is author and all powerful, as He is indeed.
If they don't, well then law, shmaw, who cares when they can't understand how things really work? They think we live as a ripple and vanish unseen.
But not even a ripple vanishes. The energy is just converting as the law of conservation of energy states.
People are so wrapped up in the petty details they miss the big picture and who is important.
And what He wants, if we believe in Him and follow Him, is to not sin under any circumstance. To give Him due credit and glory in doing so. To trust Him. And if we can't trust God, knowing He is truly there...
Who can we trust?
I don't care what you say vector. I'd lie to save you. Even if you wouldn't try to argue my case in front of your god.
That's OK. I would do the right thing, because it's the right thing. No matter the consequences.
Well, that's because you fall into the alternative category I mentioned.
"...law, shmaw..." lol
I know you can't live without me. I loves you too Emiles.
And me argue with God???
What are you smokin'? He can do whatever He wants, I'm sidin' with Him.
He loves you more than me anyway.
Abraham stood up to God, in defense of another. God apparently had no problem with it.
That's why Abraham is Abraham..
He also said Sarah was his sister more than once out of fear of being killed. lol
I'm Daniel - It means "God is my judge."
And I don't question Him. Because I know God is good, and will do better for people than I can hope for.
I would still pray for you, if I didn't know what His stance was already.
And He requested, not stood up to.. lol
Nice wording there though. Cute.
It wasn't a request vector. Of course the text wouldn't say he demanded anything; but he was clearly questioning the fairness of God's plan. Pointing out that the plan was ill thought out. It is pretty black and white in the text. Had he not pushed on, Lot and his daughters would never have made it out to the hills to have their incestuous relationship.
But, you wouldn't even bring it up. I'm not sure you like me.
Yeah, that's what I like about those OT men, they ere deeply flawed and yet STILL God could use them, there's hope for me yet!
God has no problem with us tussling with Him over things, and thank God (literally) that he can listen to our case and make the best decision for us, and Him.
First, these guys were not Christians (yet)so they were under no such obligation to tell the truth.
Secondly God gave Abe a number to find, to SPARE THE CITY not Lot, the number they negotiated down to was 10 men of God, which coincidently is a 'mizvar' the number required before you can start a synagogue (body of believers).
If there had been just 10 men in that city who belonged to God, He would NOT have taken the place down, as it was there were NOT even 10 men of God in town, and those men who were there were evil of intent.
Like I said, I love these OT guys, they were the pits and would never have been allowed to preach to the modern churches audiences, they do not fit the job description, but they were obedient to God WHEN IT MATTERED and that is what sets them apart as great men of faith, and it still does today.
Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed because they had turned their back on God and started doing evil, but the people who were Gods were saved.
There is a parable about our times in that story as well.
PS: Lots wife was lost when she turned back and looked at where she had come from (and never really left) she LIKED Sodom, and so she was 'cast' (as a pillar of salt) there for eternity with all the others who turned their back on God.
There is another comparison to folk today.
Well, the reason I said Lot and his daughters made it to the hills was because I think everyone in the free world knows the story says she was turned into a pillar of salt.
But, here you sit in judgment of the patriarchs of the Old Testament. Aren't you special. You have determined them not qualified to teach in your church. According to the text, your God thought they were special. Maybe you didn't learn the lessons you were meant to learn.
Twisting words again, what I said was:
"Like I said, I love these OT guys, they were the pits and would never have been allowed to preach to the modern churches audiences, they do not fit the job description, but they were obedient to God WHEN IT MATTERED and that is what sets them apart as great men of faith, and it still does today."
I do not attend those churches, they would be welcome any time in my church, if I had one.
Quoting out of context is not a good thing Emile, folk could get confused into thinking you were trying to pull a flanker, or that I had said what you intimated.
Not attempting to pull a flanker. Just reading your posts. Had you not begun by calling them the pits, I might not have thought you also deemed them unworthy to teach.
So, you think someone you label the pits should teach? I'm confused.
I label them the pits because they were faulty men WHEN THEY STARTED and before God had done His thing with them.
God uses the foolish things to confound the wise.
Smart folk are not much use to God, who seems to pick the folk who are not equipped for the task in hand, but will be obedient to Gods commands.
The obedience is required not because God is needing it, but because if we obey His commands, we will not get hurt, whereas whenever we help God out with our own thinking, things tend to go wrong.
You get the hang of it after a while, but at first it's a whole faith trip just to start TRUSTING God.
My children know my voice, and when I tell them to stop or go, they understand to do it without question, because I have shown them that I could see dangers they may miss, and obedience to my command may save their lives, and it has stopped potential accidents whilst crossing roads etc.
We can have that same Father relationship with God, if we are willing to come to Him like little children. i.e. simply, not wanting every single thing analysed and measured before we will ask Him for help or even accept that God exists.
I guess it needs us to recognise that God does know better than us, and will explain it to us when we have accepted that fact.
Faulty men? I guess no rationale was used to reach that assessment.
Foolishness doesn't confound the wise because the wise see through the deceit and it's usage.
Like a soldier is to listen to commands from it's leaders. Yet, these same people will be tried and convicted for disobedience, when they do something which is morally right and they protect the innocent against it a morally wrong action happening.
Prime example: A few good men. Two soldier were ordered to give someone a code red. It went to far and the man died. They were convicted on conduct unbecoming of a marine because they didn't follow what was right, to protect the other marine from having to deal with the code red in the first place.
So blindness with regards to own thoughts are damaging? Interesting and stupid at the same time.
You continue to show your true weakness, and that's a lack of awareness. Good for you.
I'm sure into adulthood children do stop listening to their parents, just like common sense and reasoning eliminate the notion a G/god exists in the first place.
To not question things is against human nature. Therefore, your train of though with regards to your own religious beliefs are a direct violation of human nature. How sad you don't realize it.
I'm just going to address this statement. Have you actually read the Old Testament? Where do you come up with this? There isn't one patriarch, or biblical figure, that I can think of who was molded into anything different that what they began as. They all, throughout their lives, conduct themselves in a questionable manner at times.
Are you sure you don't have them mixed up with someone else?
No, no confusion, but thanks for backing my assumption about their character, better than accusing me of being judgemental... these guys "all, throughout their lives, conduct themselves in a questionable manner at times." just like you confirmed, but maybe put more eloquently!
The difference about all of them was that when God commanded them to do something, they did, they were obedient when it mattered.
I admit that Moses got taken down when he tried the same action twice rather than asking God, but the take down was for disobedience.
The change God makes in a man's heart may not improve his table manners or make him into a metro-male, what it does is remove the rebellion against God and make him usable by God and that is the difference.
Before God a men who conduct themselves in a questionable manner at times, after God men who will do Gods bidding when the call comes.
No confusion, just understanding of how God works.
I disagree again. Simply because of how you have decided this lesson pans out in real life. No change. No lessons learned. They appear to be no different from any human being. If a God spoke to anyone, at any time, in a manner consistent with what a God should be......anyone would listen.
The God of the Old Testament was a God who mirrored the behavior patterns, at times, of the gods of the surrounding nations. Vengeful, fickle and callous. Better than some. Only once did he request a human sacrifice and he was apparently only kidding. But, that request was in line with what Abraham believed a god to be.
However, when God overstepped the bounds of reason, Abraham stepped up to the plate. To question. To reason with God. He could use his mind. Even as an ancient. Jesus appealed to man's reason. Not their ability to bend their knees.
So, the way I see it; people who don't question. Who don't use reason during the course of their journey probably wouldn't be deemed safe to call upon for anything.
I suggest you read Hebrew 11 and reconsider your remarks.
That is one of the problems I experience when conversing with you. Your comments come from left field at times. What does Hebrews 11 have to do with my comments. Did I question the faith of the patriarchs? No.
What I questioned was your claim that they began as 'the pits' and were somehow magically transformed.
OH I see, well in that case you should read most of the old testament BEFORE you read Hebrews 11, which tells us that they were heroes of faith, after they obeyed God, whereas if you read their personal histories in the OT, it's plain to see that they were incapable on their own of doing what they did.
Gideon was one example, this guy pulls down the local Baal worship centre, roughly akin to burning a Quoran in the mosque by the standards of the time, and survives, he then tests God twice before he starts against the enemies of Israel with 22,000 men to fight behind him, and gets told to whittle them down to 300, whereupon with 300 men he defeats a massive army.
God gets ordinary insignificant men to do His great deeds, but they start off insignificant, and do great things, but still give God the Glory for the victories, they know that on their own they were incapable, but with God they are able to defeat even the mightiest enemy.
We still are.
You still haven't addressed the question. Is this a shell game?
Let's just stick to Abraham. That might be easier. Was Abraham changed by his relationship with God.....as you claimed? I see his faith no less strong from the moment he left the land of the Chaldeans to the day he died. I see no change in behavior patterns either.
So, how did God mold him into a figure that wasn't 'the pits' as you put it?
Genesis 12 10-19
Now there was a famine in the land, and Abram [b]went down into Egypt to live temporarily, for the famine in the land was oppressive (intense and grievous).
And when he was about to enter into Egypt, he said to Sarai his wife, I know that you are beautiful to behold.
So when the Egyptians see you, they will say, This is his wife; and they will kill me, but they will let you live.
Say, I beg of you, that you are [c]my sister, so that it may go well with me for your sake and my life will be spared because of you.
And when Abram came into Egypt, the Egyptians saw that the woman was very beautiful.
The princes of Pharaoh also saw her and commended her to Pharaoh, and she was taken into Pharaoh’s house [harem].
And he treated Abram well for her sake; he acquired sheep, oxen, he-donkeys, menservants, maidservants, she-donkeys, and [d]camels.
But the Lord scourged Pharaoh and his household with serious plagues because of Sarai, Abram’s wife.
And Pharaoh called Abram and said, What is this that you have done to me? Why did you not tell me that she was your wife?
Why did you say, She is my sister, so that I took her to be my wife? Now then, here is your wife; take her and get away [from here]!
Yep real hero in this instance.
You may be purposely obtuse here. But, what the heck. Right?
I didn't claim the guy didn't conduct himself in a manner outside of the bounds of what is right. Neither did you.
What you did claim was the he was 'the pits' until after God had molded him. I am asking how his behavior pattern was changed by God?
You have yet to back up your statement.
Isn't it simple? His 'holy spirit' "experience" told him so. Something like reverse clairvoyance, he can clearly see the past, the spirit is showing him.
Of course. I like the idea of the holy spirit. I wish I could buy into it since you don't have to make sense, you get to turn the text upside down to suit your agenda, you get forgiven of every transgression and you get to turn your nose up at everyone else and point out anything you deem questionable. Since the only reason you aren't walking on water is because you chose not to. You are perfect because you are somehow justified in turning a blind eye to your own imperfections; but everyone else is hell bound because you sure as heck aren't going to turn a blind eye to any imperfections in others.
Shame on you and me for questioning this holy spirit.
You really think that what Abram did was not "outside of the bounds of what is right"?
You seem focussed on the word 'pits' and maybe I now see why, you cannot recognise that what these guys did was the 'pits' to God, your concept of what does make someone the 'pits' is obviously different to mine.
Tell me what does it take to be the 'pits' in your thinking?
Yes I was amongst those who were the 'pits' BEFORE I met with Christ and God, and accepted THEIR standards of what is correct rather than mine.
Never the less YOUR will Lord, not mine comes to mind.
You will defend a man who tells lies in order to save his own skin, lies which put his own wife at extreme risk from a powerful King, and puts the King in a position that he had no right or need to be in, all because Abram thought it was OK and did not (at that time) trust God to guard him as he moved into the position God had told him to go to.
OK, now I see where the problem is, it's that old world view versus Kingdom view that has obscured the relevance of Abram's actions here, and possibly just a contentious spirit.
Yet the great god found it necessary to impregnate another man's espoused and commit adultery. That is not pits anyway.
Abraham bad, why couldn't he simply kill some first born children or at least gave god some foreskin?
A contentious spirit.
Sure. That's my problem with your inability to make your case.
You know, he did this more than once...
In Genesis Chapter 20...He told Abimelech king of Gerar the same thing...except the rest of the story comes out...
In verses 11 and 12 we read:
11 Abraham replied, “I said to myself, ‘There is surely no fear of God in this place, and they will kill me because of my wife.’
12 Besides, she really is my sister, the daughter of my father though not of my mother; and she became my wife.
So he didn't really lie about her being his sister...he just neglected to say they were also married.
Good point, but he still did not trust God at that point, which is what I am trying to illustrate, and Abram, who, when he did trust in God, became Abraham, THE Patriarch of all believers, was still a flawed man when he met God.
I agree with the trust issue...
Humans are only humans after all...
So, was God lying when he first promised to make Abram the father of a great nation? Was it faith in God that made him Abraham, to be the father of many nations? He laughed at God at that point. Didn't he? That doesn't sound like faith.
He laughed because he was human and did not believe God, it takes time for a man to believe God, and stop doubting what God can do, and does do.
That's why it's called faith, because until you have faith, you cannot get anywhere with God, but from faith comes belief and from belief comes trust, and from trust comes fellowship and relationship.
As we progress with God, we begin to see the evidence of His hand over our lives, and those we minster, fellowship and deal with, and the trust builds slowly.
God seems to have this ability to spot those who are His friends and who will be His friends, and recognise those who are not going to be His friend.
That's a disgusting post aqua. I can't say much more than that.
Read Motown's post. She summed it up nicely, to a point. Since I don't believe many of the religious are the friend of any god. Especially the religious who make statements such as the one aqua made.
Agua made a good statement actually To further what he said, "God knows who his enemies are."
As far as what Motwon said, she is right in that God loves everyone but that did not explain how or why what Agua said was disgusting.
I'll type this very slowly. So every religious bigot who reads this can follow. God has no enemies. Not on this earth. There isn't a living soul who wouldn't rejoice at proof of life. Unless, of course, that God were as bigoted as the religious. Which I highly doubt.
However, even if every unkind thing you believe were proven to be truth. God would still have no enemies. He'd be God. It's tantamount to saying ticks have declared war on man. It's ludicrous. They may be aware of our existence. They may wish they could suck every ounce of blood from us. But it isn't war and they don't endanger our existence.
Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't you one who does not believe God is even real? How can you know if God has enemies or not when you don't believe in Him?
Exactly, non-existent things cannot have enemies.
Because it's impossible to hate something which doesn't exist.
Not to be argumentative
Just because I never belonged to Elvis Presley’s fan club does not mean that I didn't like his singing a lot.
There are too many variances in religion for any of us to say that we agree with religion as a whole.
It is a Love/Hate thingie. Kinda sort a ??
I believe in God and yet I do not believe in every description of God that we are exposed to.
Religion is kinda like that. I think?
Do you know if Elvis had enemies or not?
How would you know?
I was just saying that just because a person doesn't join a particular fan club or don't like a particular member of it doesn't mean they are enemy’s of it. Not all, but some Christians feel as though if someone doesn't agree with their views, that person is an enemy of God.
Maybe adversary is a better word than enemy?
I have had many adversaries to my opinions. And I have been blessed from them.
Unless we have adversaries to our opinions, our opinions will forever remain the same, stagnate and cease growing.
SOoo I don't think that our adversaries are necessarily GOD's enemy.
As I stated, before you edited my comments; anyone would be thrilled at proof of life.
But calling those who disagree with you enemies of God is silly. And jerami calling them adversaries is also ill thought out.
Seriously. If God exists can you be his adversary or his enemy? How, exactly, could man thwart a God's plans, or fight a god? You wouldn't be as irritating as a fly in ointment.
No; the religious go out of their way to make enemies of themselves. Apparently there is no god required for that.
I used only the part of your quote that I thought necessary.
Not once did I say those who disagree with me are the enemies of God.
You said, "God cannot have any enemies." Then you say, "No one can thwart God's plan."
Can you hate someone without actually doing them any harm?
It doesn't really matter, in the context of my argument.
But, those who don't believe God exists don't hate God. They are not God's enemies. They may find your concept of God abhorrent, but that is not the same as hating God.
Edit; It occurred to me I never really answered your first question. Aqua said God seems to have this ability to spot those who are His friends and who will be His friends, and recognise those who are not going to be His friend.
I find that abhorrent. Because of its arrogance. God loves aqua. God wants aqua to be his friend. God doesn't want to be friends with those who don't see God the way aqua does. I thought it was childish and mean spirited for an adult to make a statment like that.
Only just now saw your edit. I didn't reply earlier because I didn't see any point in it.
All I'm going to say is this, God is attempting every day to speak to people who do not know Him. Some hear Him and reject Him while others hear nothing. Some hear Him and accept Him. That is how it is. I can't say that you have heard Him or have not heard Him, but I do know He calls out.
He know who hears Him and who doesn't. He is God, nothing is hidden from Him. He knows the intent of your heart and my heart.
WOW, thanks, never had that response before, what did you find disgusting!
Yet He also Has the ability to love absolutely every single one of those folks without reservation - funny that we can't figure out a way to do the same thing.
...and did I say that God did not love them all?
No, simply that God can see who will be His friend and who will not.
2.20am Thursday for me where I am, so time to dust my sandals and get some sleep, up again in 5 hours.
The Sacrifice of Isaac is a much more profound lesson than you give it credit. There are things in that short story that tie in the entire rest of the Bible... particularly the Future plans that God had to Redeem Mankind. First revealed in Genesis 3... later more information is given in the Stories of Abraham and Isaac... These are much more in depth studies that you cannot so lightly dismiss... Isaac was the only son of Abraham... the entire episode was to show the future plans of God.. .that because Abraham had not withheld his only son from God... God who could not.. and would not be outdone by a mere man.. would one day Provide Himself a Lamb (RAM = Majestic King of the Mountain Sheep)... God would provide his Own Son as "The Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world" as an answer to Abraham's Faith.
Things of importance in this Passage include:
God will provide Himself a Lamb... A Ram was Provided.
How was the Ram Provided? The Rams Head was caught in a Thicket.
What is a Thicket? A Thicket is a tightly grown together copse of woody plant matter... Usually with Spines and Thorns. Picture the Ram caught in a Berry Bush which is quite possible since they love berries... and such vines in that area of the world both exist.. and have thorns.
Now.. Picture Jesus the Christ with his head being Crowned with Thorns taken from such a Bush...
The Pictures in the Genesis are completed and historical.
God is the author of all things. Good or evil. God is the author of lies, and God is the author of truth. Would you like to play a game?
Here's a lie from the Bible that's always bothered me: cannot remember names here...
But, a father was dying--he was blind and very sick, and as was custom--he could give his death-blessing onto his favorite son.
Well-the son who was his favorite had hairy arms.
But, the mother had a different favorite, and wanted HIM to get the blessing.
So--she tied an animal skin unto her favorite's arm, and the dying father gave him the blessing, instead of the one it was intended for.
The favorite was left out due to the mothers guile...(lie)
But---her favorite son got the blessing....so it seems like lying was rewarded here...like the race goes to the swift kind of thing...
Isn't that the lesson here: be deceitful, and you win?
Isaac was dying.
Jacob, and Esau were the sons.
Rebekah was the mother.
Here's a short read for you:
God judges the Hearts... God also knows future events as though they are current events.
God looked at both of those two kids... one was a typical liar.... the other was a hairy liar.
One wanted the Death Bed Blessing of his Father...
The other could not Care Less about his dad Blessing him or praying for him... and counted it worth less than a single meal of lentil soup.
One of those kids would go on to be a very base individual that was not hardly worth blessing at all...
The other kid however... ( the one who "Lied" to dad) Would later REPENT and go back and apologize to his brother and try to make things right.
Now.. when put in perspective... God knows the hearts... God Judges with standards and with knowledge of things that we do not have.
To God be the Glory.. He forgives sinners... even you and me if we will REPENT of our self willed lives that deny God and attempt to trust him.
this is not a Christian belief.... God considers it a sin to lie
Can you give an example of this? It is not acceptable to lie about Christianity or Jesus.
Honestly Claire? I don't think you'd understand where I was coming from. Since I do believe you have gone beyond the point of reason. I've read many of your posts.
In order for us to be on the same page in this discussion I would have to find a way to bring you back to reality. Better communicators than I am have tried. I consider you to be a prime example of a hubber who is first in serious need of a gentle guiding hand of a well grounded Christian. Once they get through to you how seriously you have deviated from the path of truth.....let's talk.
What the hell? All I asked was for an example of those who lie and justify it by saying it's spiritual warfare. I've never come across that before and you must know else you wouldn't have started this forum topic.
Religion is the refuge of those who don't know God. The key word being, KNOW GOD.
But calling those who disagree with "you" ...... enemies of God is silly.
= - = -
I didn't use the word silly yet was saying something similar as you just did.
When someone has an adverse opinion to my own, I would call them my adversary which is not to say they are my enemy.
I liked whay you said jerami. It's just that us compared to a god is like comparing an amoeba to a man. An amoeba can't affect us at all, not of its own volition. We can't be an enemy, or adversary, if we are that far beneath something that we can't even understand how it exists.
But, I agree with what you said as it applies to humans.
Sometimes when I disagree with a single issue, people act as if I am in disagreement with everything they said. Or that I disagree with them as a whole.
which is not the case.
That just means you need to be clearer when you respond.
OR there might be another alternative?
If I say that I do not like rasins ? Should I "HAVE" to elaborate that I do like brand without rasins and I wasn't talking about grapes or wine.
when it is simpler just to say exactly what I intended to say? I don't like rasins?
In your previous example, it couldn't be any other way. Thus, there's no alternative.
You stated that you were responding to something someone else said- You said that you agreed with a portion of it, but not completely.
Thus, concluding that in your response to said statement, you should be clearer about what it is that you don't agree with. What you agree with will be known when you post what you don't agree with.
The more specific you are, the better, so no confusion occurs. It doesn't harm anything to be clear as possible. This includes the words chosen.
It would be fine, but the example is different than what we were discussing.
They don't hate God, but they don't love God. They don't believe in God. They hate religion in general, but many seem to hate christians in particular. What the non-theists don't seem to grasp, is that the religionists perceive the actions of the non-theists to be proof of their sinful relationship with the son of perdition. They are, if you will, in the grip of Satan. I, on the other hand, do not share that perception.
I can't speak for any but myself; but I did know that they thought that. I still think it's ridiculous for anybody to think that those who disagree with them are in the grips of Satan.
Who owns the Italian clothes-maker 'Georgio Armani'?
My point is really very simple...
There are two sources of power and authority in our world, and we all will come under one of those two sources of authority in our world.
For simplicity, we can say good or evil, specifically I say God or the enemy (who many call Lucifer or Satan).
The 'fashionista' that sell you a 'Georgio Armani' suit probably has no idea he or she works for a chocolate manufacturer, who also sells babyfood that kills children in Africa.
They probably do not know and would not care.
That is why (in my simplistic way) I tell folk that they either belong to God or the enemy, because nobody is outside of those two sources of authority in our world.
But when you explore, and find that you are working for the wrong brand, you can change brands, or just keep selling the goods that your master owns.
Edit: And live all your life declaring that you had no part of what happened elsewhere in his kingdom.
But you would still be working for that master.
Dear me. What has this got to do with god or Stan?
Everyone knows the churches are wrapped up in big business and big business is bad.
Did you get use any fossil fuels to get where you are - or did you walk? If you used any fossil fuels you are supporting Stan.
Who is your Internet and computer provider? Stan?
So - once again you prove that you are actually working for your stated enemy.
Stop trying top polish an axe that was blunt ages ago, you are being deliberately obtuse.
No - I am pointing out your hypocrisy. You just accused anyone who interacts with and supports any of those corporations that "they either belong to God or the enemy."
When I then point out that you spend money and support those same corporations - that means you work for your stated enemy.
That makes you a hypocrite. Throw away your computer and stop paying your Internet bill.
Do as you say for a change.
I work in the 'enemies' territory, I accept that, but I do not work for the enemy, there is a difference.
I work against the enemy, and he would destroy me in seconds, if he could, but he cannot, for He that is in me is more powerful then he that opposes God, so all he can do is try to stop me exposing his plans and deceptions to those who are too blind to see the situation.
Are you trying to stop me posting?
Who do you work for?
No - just pointing out your hypocrisy. I already explained to you that by your actions - you are actually working for your stated enemy. You dismissed what I said out of hand.
I don't work for your enemy - despite your lies about me. This is why your religion causes so many wars and conflicts. As your stated enemy wants.
So if you are not under the authority of the enemy, then you are under the authority of Christ?
Which one Mark?
Who do you serve?
'cos like Dylan sang, "You gotta serve somebody"
Still ignoring everything I say. You are clearly working for your stated enemy, because this is guaranteed to cause ill will and hate. But - keep attacking me to disguise that fact. This is why your religion causes so many fights.
Still refusing to answer the same questions you ask others.
Still using the same inane remarks to try and bait the hook.
Still boring and ultimately ignorable.
LOL You know I reject your Imaginary Being. That doesn't make me a satanist.
But - you certainly ignore any points I make - as your stated enemy wants.
This is why your religion causes so many conflicts.
Never said you were a Satanist, but whether you reject God or not, you still serve either Him or the enemy in your own small way.
Of course religion causes conflict, you are being told things you do not wish to hear and refuse to accept, you must react to those things or your whole ethos for living becomes challenged.
Christ also brings conviction to those whose consciences have not been seared to such a degree that they are hardened and incapable of being reached.
You may have declared yourself a lost cause, but many read who are reached, and I see their letters to me confirming this.
This is not all about you Mark, you are just a minor annoyance that needs to be dealt with or ignored; as the reply you make warrants.
It is not a standard Christian belief and it is actually not a Christian belief. The Bible, which is the authority on these matters emphatically states that "But outside the city are the perverts and those who practice magic, the immoral and the murderers, those who worship idols and those who are liars both in words and deeds." Revelation 22:5
"Christian" is a profile nowadays. It is no longer a term that applies to true believers and followers of Christ. Those who have truly felt the redeeming grace of God through Jesus make every attempt to turn away from immoral behavior. Lying is an immoral behavior. True followers believe its their duty to lead people to Christ, not to lie about Him to others. There are many "Christians" who have never felt the redeeming grace of God. Christianity is a superficial demographic to them; or a social outlet. You should just look at them and say "liar liar pants on fire!" lol that bring said, what about true believers in horrible situations who have to lie to save the lives of those they love? Is this immoral too? The bible didn't specify.....
Religion is about as boring as a dry fanny......I'd rather have a wank over a Donkey wearing a pink wig and silky tights!
I'd like to see you getting a donkey to wear a pink wig and as for getting a donkey to put on tights!
You may not be up to much masturbation once the donkey had finished kicking you.
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