White lies: necessary evils or just as unacceptable as 'black' lies?

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   kate12402posted 12 years ago

   We all know that every once in a while we tell a little white lie, and sometimes (okay we'll be honest, a lot of the time), those 'little' white lies snowball into giant monsters we no longer have control over.  But there are certain instances, I'm sure you can think of a few examples, where you've told a white lie with the pure intent of protecting someone else's feelings, or avoiding a confrontation.  Is that really so bad??  How do you reconcile those little white lies with a spiritual calling that tells you to be impeccable with your word?

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      mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      By being mindful of yourself and how you affect others... If I am only mindful of myself though, I may miss the rest. One must be aware of lifes consequences and be prepared, though it's easier said than done.

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      couturepopcafeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      You may think you're protecting someone with a white lie but you may be keeping them from growing. Give everyone the opportunity to grow from the truth.

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      kate12402posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I think i agree as well, although like micheviousme said, it's a lot easier said than done.

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         noenhulkposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Amen. That's right!

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      Mankmanposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      It's not always necessary to lie, but many do for a good reason.
      
      It's okay to sugarcoat things, occasionally.

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   Cagsilposted 12 years ago

   I always find it interesting when people bring up this topic.
   
   Actions are tied to morals. Morals are either immoral or moral. Thus, black and white.
   
   To think there's a grey area of acceptance is dishonest. Integrity is to lead our individual character and to not up hold it, is dishonest.
   
   Aside from that, telling people little "white" lies are not giving people the truth, just to give them a sense of self esteem or self confidence, doesn't work because it works in reverse in other things.
   
   Boosting a person's confidence can give them a false sense of themselves, if you lie to them. Which can result in later harm.

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   kate12402posted 12 years ago

   I think the grey area comes when some people consider one action to be moral, and others consider it to be immoral.  The grey comes from the disagreement.  There are plenty of things that people disagree about when it comes to morality.  So for individual people there is no grey area because you either think something is moral or you think it isn't.  But for groups of people, where the opinions join to form collective opinion, then there is grey.

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   Emile Rposted 12 years ago

   I think any white lie told with a pure heart is not a lie as much as it is a kindness.
   
   But, that is only if it is told out of love and concern. Not to cover your butt because you are late for work or something.
   
   I think people get so caught up in defining the parameters of right and wrong that they don't think about what it means.  What do you expect to accomplish with 'right'? Is it kind to be honest with a cancer patient and tell them they look like death warmed over?

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   kate12402posted 12 years ago

   Interesting point.  You're right, I would never say that.  In that situation I would lie, and wouldn't bat an eyelash at lying.  Although where do you draw the line?

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      Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I think you draw the line at the expected end result for the person. A lie for yourself is a lie, no way around that. And the lie can not be seen as doing potential damage. Telling someone they look great may seem expedient at the moment, but if they don't and being honest would save them future embarrassment...truth is the kindness. Not a white lie.

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         kate12402posted 12 years agoin reply to this

         I like that answer.  Thank you!

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      mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      When one's actions do direct harm to the self, it's probably better to find a different way. I would lie to protect a friend, but only to an extent... I won't harbor a fugitive and that kind of lie does damage.

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         kate12402posted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Haha have you been asked to harbor a fugitive in the past??

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            mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            No... Just using an example, even if by proxy.

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               kate12402posted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Either way, I do agree with you.  It kind of goes with what Emile R said above about how you would never tell a cancer patient that they look crappy.  You just wouldn't because telling them the truth would do more harm than good, and lying to them would lift their spirits possibly.

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                  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  they would also know were lying, even with fake humility.

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                     kate12402posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     depends on what you say? i mean obviously if you say "hey you look amazing where'd you get your haircut?" they're gonna see through you.  But I think maybe if you say something like "you look like you could some rest" instead of "you look anorexic and bald doesn't look good on you" you might get a better response.

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                        mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        How about talking to them like their human beings and not patronizing them with false sentiments...

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                           kate12402posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                           i don't think what i suggested was false sentiment.  have you ever had someone close to you die from cancer?  I have - one of my closest friends.  I agree with you about talking to people like they are human beings, but there's no reason to be mean or say things you know would do more harm than good.  And most people with cancer aren't just fighting the disease, but also the fact that they (and others around them) begin to define themselves by the cancer.  They need breaks from constantly being reminded that they're sick.  They are people too, not just cancer patients.

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                              mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                              I have lost more people in my life than you probably know, many of which appreciated my attitude. They knew they were failing, but I never brought that up. They knew they weren't pretty, all yellow and sickly. I just hung out with them until my calling changed or there was no need for my presence.

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                                 kate12402posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                 I wasn't suggesting any previous knowledge about you, nor attacking you in anyway.  I don't judge you or question your intent, morals, or intelligence.  You're comment the number of friends I have was both uncalled for, and completely unnecessary.  What you did sounds like what I did, so I won't argue with that.  I think you and I are more or less saying the same thing so your anger is puzzling to me.

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                                    mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                    I wasn't angry, I was pointing out that patronage is, often times, uncalled for. I would prefer to hang out with the sick and dying, they know what the worlds really about... enjoying the moment. Pain does not curb laughter nor laughter pain, though it's nice to have company.

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                           Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                           That sounds somewhat rigid. Everything is relative. Someone who is sick  may not look like they could win a beauty pageant; but truth can be found other than stating that.
                           
                           Maybe white lies could be better defined as finding the elusive positive and leaving the glaring negatives unspoken.

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                              mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                              There is nothing negative about lending one's time to the ill, but save the lies and man up. If a cancer patient asked me if they looked horrible, I'd say "yes but give it a minute, the swelling will go down". Redirection with humor, though I tend to avoid the subject entirely by being genuinely concerned for their feelings and being mindful of how I may offend or worsen the situation. Look forward to consequence for every action, but don't blame it on karma. If I lie to make someone feel better, I'm still lying. The only difference to a cancer patient, is that by the time their actually dying, they don't really care about that... Their clinging to the moment and such sentiment is no longer necessary, just company and someone to talk to.

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                                 Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                 Maybe it's time to see if your theory is true. Just tell me where to mail the hammer.

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                                    Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                    

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                                    mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                    Yeah I got ya... You think I'm being stupid? I'm just looking at the world without rosey colored glasses, but I don't hate on haters... Your perception of me is your choice, I didn't make you read my garbage. That was all you sweetheart.

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                                       Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                       It's amazing how your idea of Joke loses its humor....depending on who it's directed at.

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                                          mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                          I was just ripping on myself there, but again, that's written language... No inflection.

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                                             Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                             Back on topic now. Why would you think searching for the positive was wearing colored glasses?

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                                                mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                                I pay compliment just by being there and they pay me compliment by accepting my presence, there is no need for even words. The point is, I love them enough to see them. I even hung out with the patients I didn't know, the one's that had no visitors, just patronizing and condisending staff members. Maybe the occasional chaplain, for the most part nothing. Did I humor them? Yes. Did I have to? no. They were happy I was just there.

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                                                   Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                                   Oh. I didn't realize having you in one's presence was such a compliment. I stand corrected.

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                                                      mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                                      Read the first part of the paragragh only? I don't see the need to go down this road. Troll someone else if you're unhappy, though I do appreciate the attention. Thanks.

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                                                         Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                                         I read the whole thing. I know it's easier to call someone a troll then think before you post, but if the post is drivel it doesn't take a troll to see it.

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                                                            Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                                            

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                                                            mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                                            At least I know I'm full of it. What's your excuse?

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                                                               Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                                               Back to the topic. Is being full of it a 'black' lie, or 'white' one?

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                                                                  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                                                  It's human nature.

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                                                                     Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                                                     That doesn't actually answer the question.

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                                                                        mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                                                        Sure it does, you're just not applying it to your own humaninty. As if you're any different from the rest of us, we're all trapped in our skin bags too. It's easy to say "I'm not like that", but we all are.

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                                                                           Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                                                           The pure and simple fact that you claim to be "Full of it"- Is this claim a "black" lie or is it a "white" lie?
                                                                           
                                                                           Human nature isn't an answer to that question, because the only two answers it can be is "black" or "white"? Either way, you're lying and apparently crave the attention anyone gives you.
                                                                           
                                                                           This is a good thing to learn about you. I figured that much when we met. The manner in which you began your particular posting on HubPages has been watched. I know, I am a people watcher and I've paid attention to plenty of the people who are on the forums.
                                                                           
                                                                           You speak in riddles at times. You're fleeting at best in logic. You don't come across as rational. Half your actions speak of little to no character. You've been pounding the religious forums since you arrived.
                                                                           
                                                                           It's a real shame that you don't see your own actions as ego driven? Because, if you had and still continued, you wouldn't only be known as a liar, but of being heartless too?
                                                                           
                                                                           Now, this is just my generalization of what I've witnessed about your actions. And, almost always you deflect away from the topics of the threads.
                                                                           
                                                                           So, with that said. This conversation between you and I is now over. Don't bother to respond. It's not important and would only work against you.

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                                                                              mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                                                              It's just a sign that I'm comfrotable with myself, no truth or untruth needed.

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                                                                                 kate12402posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                                                                 That is the most ridiculous thing you've said yet.

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                                                                                    mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                                                                    To you... Why does it have to be any more complicated?

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                                                                                       kate12402posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                                                                       More complicated?? How about less complicated?? It should be a lot less complicated.  Riddles have no place in academic conversation.

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                                                                                          mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                                                                          Who said anything of academics... Unless you haven't noticed, this is a forum, not a school. I am not a scholar of any kind, I don't care about semantics and opinions are far from a social thing... As if it's some kind of disease to be comfortable with yourself. I commend you on the attempt to rattle me though, very cunning indeed.

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                                                                                             kate12402posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                                                                             I couldn't care less about your state of mind.  However I am curious, if you're not participating in a forum to learn, express your opinion, and/or develop an opinion(all of which constitute an academic setting), then why on Earth are you here??

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                                                                                                mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                                                                                To figure you out, as a species. You talking monkeys are so interesting and entertaining, especialy with the off color opinions about a singular personality. If I bother you that much, why are you responding to me? Unless you find the debate (or whatever you want to call it), interesting?

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                                                                                                   kate12402posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                                                                                   Are you saying you aren't a human being??  Seriously??

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                                                                                                      mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                                                                                      I know I'm human, though I have questions about my parents. My father's a computer and my mother a television. Where do I fit in?

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                                                                     Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                                                     Only for those who lack courage of conviction.

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   Cagsilposted 12 years ago

   People can be polite without having to resort to lying.
   
   You don't have to tell a Cancer patient that they look crappy. But, you can tell them that they don't look so good. They expect it.

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      kate12402posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I would agree.  Although you could also just avoid telling them anything about their appearance at all and talk about other things going on in your lives as well.

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         Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         When you are asked a question it is polite to answer said question if you can do so. Detracting away from the subject is dishonest, just because you feel uneasy about answering said question.

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            kate12402posted 12 years agoin reply to this

            you're assuming they asked you in the first place.  as you had not mentioned this stipulation at the beginning of the conversation, it can't apply to anything I said before you invoked it.

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   SandyMcCollumposted 12 years ago

   I agree with Kate, I have taken care of people in a hospice situation, and once I was unfortunate enough to be a patient in a hospice. They were so sure I was dying, but even so, I appreciated the ones who bothered to notice if I looked good. Telling someone they look better than last time you saw them isn't building false hopes, but a positive in an otherwise bleak situation, and if they know you're lying, so what, they know you care enough to try and make them feel better.  I have and likely will tell this lie again, too. But dishonesty isn't the ticket, if a lie MUST be told let it be from love. Otherwise, a lie has no size or color, it's just a lie, any lie is a lie. Just mho.

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      kate12402posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Thank you for commenting!  It's one thing for me, having never been in the place of such a patient, to express my opinion, but it speaks volumes to hear your opinion.  Thank you

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      noenhulkposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      It means white lies is building positive hopes while black lies to false hopes. Is that so?

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         kate12402posted 12 years agoin reply to this

         That's a pretty good way of looking at it I think.

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   kate12402posted 12 years ago

   Okayy I'm going with that is sarcasm, in which case I would say this: the pursuit of understanding humanity (anthropology) is my passion.  You insult it and me by purposefully working to confuse others, and inhibit intellectual discourse.

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      mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      No... I drop logic pills, you just don't see beyond the words and infer your own meanings. As far as I'm concerned, I'm absolutely right. Which brings me to my point... It's all personal nonsense.

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         kate12402posted 12 years agoin reply to this

         You are purposefully blocking intelligent conversation for your own entertainment.  Frankly, it's disgusting.

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            mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            And your still reacting with emotion, that's all you. I didn't tell you to give into your frustration, it's all how you choose to react. Being mindful of how I'm affecting you is your own business, telling me how to conduct myself in an open forum isn't.

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               kate12402posted 12 years agoin reply to this

               It is considering the open forum was started by me, and I take responsibility for the conduct of the people within this forum.  I take responsibility because I genuinely care about others, and about the noble goal of genuinely pursing knowledge.

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                  kate12402posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  However you're right.  Clearly you want the last word, so go ahead.  Take it.  I'm done.

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                  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  I do to, but like all other people, it's my process. You care one way, I care in another. I will never see it exactly your way nor will I ever feel your pains. It's an individual experience, we conduct ourselve's as life comes at us. We handle it as we were conditioned to, by our elders. Don't blame me or yourself, blame my parents.

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                     Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     You do understand that your posts haven't fooled even the most casual of observers? If you didn't understand what the word lie meant you should have asked. We wouldn't have laughed.

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                        mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        I don't tell lies, I don't feel I have to. There's no need for it... Maybe for you scumbags, I got other $#!% to do. Like being honest... You're all dirt, if you think it's cool to lie to any degree, should actually be ashamed of yourselve's...

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                           Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                           
                           
                           Now I am laughing at you. You first claim lying is beneath you, then you claim you are full of lies...now your last post.
                           
                           Make up your mind little guy. Or not. I think what you are is obvious.

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                              mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                              Being full of it and being a liar, are two different things. I can bs with you, it doesn't mean I'm lying. It's called banter for a reason...

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                                 Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                 Using words and terms you don't understand must be very confusing for you.
                                 
                                 Definition of bs
                                 1. Foolish, deceitful, or boastful language. 2. Something worthless, deceptive, or insincere. 3. Insolent talk or behavior.
                                 
                                 Definition of banter
                                 1.    light teasing remarks: lighthearted teasing or amusing remarks that are exchanged between people
                                 
                                 Study them. Learn the difference and come back when you can effectively use them in a sentence. 

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                                    mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                    You've obviously never been a salesman... None of those literal definitions apply, accept maybe the banter part. Pardon the reference, but shooting the shit is not lying. When I sit and bs with you, I'm not lying, just talking about nothing important... Just like we do in this forum. Is Jesus really that important? Is my point of view important to me? No to both questions, as far I'm concerned.

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                                       Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                       Nice attempt to divert the conversation. So, you've lied repeatedly, by your own admission and now you claim bs isn't lying; but is akin to being a salesman.
                                       
                                       What are you selling mm? Bs?

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                                          mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                          Nothing, just pointing out semantics. What you believe to be right and true, may be lies or bs to me... No matter how truthful I'm trying to be, someone's going to see it as bs anyway. So why not give them nothing to bite into?

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                                             Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                             So, you are saying the fact that someone will invariably misunderstand you at some point prohibits you from attempting to be truthful at any point?
                                             
                                             That's just odd. Or defeatist.

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                                                kate12402posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                                Honestly, I wouldn't waste your time arguing with him.  He's just trying to bait you.  He finds this amusing.  And frankly, you're time is too valuable to waste on this conversation.

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                                                   Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                                   You are right. My time is too valuable to be wasting it on this conversation. But, I'm afraid he isn't baiting. He honestly doesn't get it.

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                                                      kate12402posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                                      *Imagine me shaking my head here* Ah well.

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   stclairjackposted 12 years ago

   I always approached the truth vs. honesty conundrum with not just morals but also expediency in mind. It may be Machiavellian of me, but I tend to ask myself,.. “what best serves the purpose of the moment?”
   
   I guess it’s a judgment call following an examination of conscience,… am I telling the truth because it will aid the situation or because I get some perverse glee out of it,…. It comes down to motive.
   
   and i must admit,... if your dumb enough to ask me,... your liable to get the unvarnished truth,.. if i think you need it.

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      kate12402posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      That's an extremely interesting way to view it, and actually I think that's the best answer yet!  I'm not sure how Machiavellian it is lol, but I think you're right about the need to question the motive behind the honesty.

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         stclairjackposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         thank you!

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