Does anyone really believe in god?
Nice reply.
No trap.
I will respond a little later if you don't mind, as I am hoping to receive more thoughtful responses like this one.This is what creates the deep seated belief, and demonstrates that there is not actually a god - it is all in your mind. You can use the same techniques to help you believe almost anything. Look in the mirror every morning and spend 20 minutes telling your self what a good looking devil you are and I guarantee your self confidence will be massively boosted.
You are contradicting yourself here and now claiming an external God - the "real God," - which is it? The subconscious mind is not god power.
I know this and can prove it, because I can access a large aspect of my subconcious mind and control a good portion of it.
I can direct my dreams, set a mental alarm clock that never fails, slow my heart rate and all sorts of other things that the subconcious mind and sympathetic nervous system are in control of.
God said no such thing, but - of course these work together. Much of the aim of Yoga and the martial arts is concerned with taking control of the parts of your mind and body that you are not necessarily aware of. Spend 2 hours a day, 7 days a week blocking a punch and you will block it without thinking when the time comes.
Repetition is a vital part of almost any training system. This is why religion has you repeat the same actions over and over.
It is very comforting - and as I think you are starting to see - is what teaches you to believe there is an invisible super being there at a visceral level.
I personally choose to ue this in a different way and have learned to sense intent and do a number of other things instead. There is a place you can put yourself in a myriad of ways involving repetition. Do some Buddhist chanting for a while and you will go to exactly the same place as the Catholics go when burning incense and chanting prayers or the Aikido master goes to when defending against several people attacking him. There is a lot of untapped power there that you can tap on a day to day basis if you wish. You. No god involved.
A large part of what you are doing is allowing the parasympathetic nervous system to take control and becoming relaxed at a very deep level. It is good for you to exercise both nervous systems.
This is what causes a large part of the stress of daily life - allowing our fight or flight response to get confused and not using it as is natural.
Spend enough time using it to worry about whether you are going to make enough money to pay the mortgage and eventually you get ill. Run a 100 yard sprint every now and then will help with that.
The fight or flight response is part of us - our self awareness and religious and cultural training is clashing with that.
There you go.
Wrong. You can use this same technique to heighten the fight or flight mechanism and improve it. Or to relax yourself to the point where you are no longer afraid. But - the mechanism is still there.
This is why I do not agree with most religions - it teaches people to go against their natural way of being. Which doesn't make any sense to me at all.
Nothing separates us from animals. This is just another example of wrong thinking being pounded out by religious propaganda. We are part and parcel of the earth and nothing separates us from them. If we do not understand this and some how get rid of this idea - we are destined to destroy ourselves - Just like The Nonsense tells us we will.
Animals have a subconscious mind as well as a joint mind in some cases.
Our world is survival of the fittest. We are starting to get away from this also I admit, but it is no different. Fight, flight and kill instinct is there for all animals - including us. You need to be very well trained in order to over ride it and I have known very few people capable of doing so. Seriously - try holding your breath until you die.
He does not do any such thing, because there is no external god. You can choose to be as you are naturally or invent magical super beings that prevent you from understanding your self and your real relationship with the rest of the world. We are getting further away from it all the time - with the aid of religion and a belief in a god.I guess my question here is; If we are as basic as animal functioning, and we well could be, I do see your points. They are valid and reasonable.
Then how does one explain Conscience. I do not think animals have that. I do not feel I was contradicting myself in that the Inner mind is the power mind, the God mind or Spirit mind if you will, and I believe that the link to the outer mind is Conscience. If you will allow me here, for a picture, inner layer (Spirit Power inside you), outer shell(your mind)and an interfacing layer in-between them (Conscience)
people reason what is right and wrong, yet they still ignore the reasoning and do it anyway...lol
but they honestly know the differences even without reading the words of God. By this I mean they function through sight and sense, they follow. Stop at a stop sign, do not steal, they see police, etc.... thats not living in God it is exhistance in the law. I am speaking of much deeper here. Man in spirit and cell, both.
The Conscience (our ability to reason). I believe is the thread between the sub-concious mind and the mind itself. One inside the other so to speak. and Conscience being that Spirit to Chemical reaction interfacing layer, that ties them togeather, to produce a thought, and or action.
I am saying or am trying to say that God in spirit comes to man through that sub-concious mind, and that Conscience layer filters the contact and allows us to reason with him.
I guess as ludicriouis as it sounds to you, I am suggesting there is a real spirit power in the universe (God) and we touch him through the sub-concious mind. And pass it through conscience to the mind, which results in some rationalization and thus thoughts afirmed or denied with reading (hearing-not spoken word) the words. And with Faith we accept the reasoning. But.....we test itI
we ask and verify that the words are right. Did the result of following them come out right?
are they correct for us? We test God. The words of God written say for us to do this. Thats how we stay in the Faith and want to go back to affirm more words. We prove his Truth.
(Do the words prove true?) To me they do.
If we affirm Gods words and prove them to ourselves, then we continue to touch his power, his spirit in sub-concious, and continue to reason with him. Thus through that sub-concious contact, that constant process of hearing, testing and returning to re-affirm- we keep unity with God.
I think that is really our one True purpose in life, fellowship with God. I think that was what was really laid down to Moses in the Torra, he explained how to do this process, to keep him and not seperate from him.
I think the Translations have totaly taken this and turned it into something so far from Gods original intention, and humanised it so that now when we need direction it can be mis-concived as un-believable. So many self serving versions, and twists not there originaly.
So.....LOL....... yes, I am doing as you say I am, re-affirming over and over, conditioning-exercising the inner mind, then testing His words and trying to keep a touch to the Spirit Power of God. Manipulating myself until it is an automatic in response to do that.
I realise I am making A clear Choice, choosing to do this. My beliefe is he is a real living spirit. As nutty as that sounds ( I do know both sides) But, I am finding truth in that process.
and.... I also know you are not wrong for your choices. I can see why now, in your reasoning and I think you have valid points. and I do respect that you do not agree with this, We are both making a free choice, which is our right to do so.
Thank you for a discussion which I am enjoying.Yes - you are making a clear choice. You are not testing anyone's Word,not are you testing god or proving anything to anyone - not even yourself d - you are deliberately brain washing yourself. That is what most of you do. It is the only way to get yourself to accept this as anything other than an irrational need.
Sadly it is leading you away from your potential because you are filling your head with white noise as a distraction. If you genuinely explored the actual possibilities and understood yourself a little more - you would not need to do this.
I would find the discussion much more interesting if you actually addressed what I said to you instead of repeating what you already said.
I already know that you have decided there is an invisible super being and all you really want is validation of that belief. This is why you spend so much time reinforcing it. And this is your choice because it makes you feel better. Honestly - if it didn't come with so many bad, terrible things attached to it - I probably wouldn't have an opinion on it.
I cannot validate that belief for you because you have absolutely nothing to back it up. Nothing at all - other than you have decided to believe this - and if your brethren are anything to go by - will fight for it.
Conscience? Explain conscience? Do you really need me to explain why it is necessary to force the members of our society to follow certain cultural norms in order to maintain a harmonious existence within the community?
You think it was given by an invisible super being I suppose? And are quite happy to ignore the murder, mayhem and unconscionable acts perpetrated by most of the humans on the planet every day.
And are quite happy to ignore the upcoming war between two different cultures - both of whom think an invisible super being tells them what to do?
Hey - your choice - believe what you want - just remember where it belongs - in your head - not telling people what the imaginary super being said.
I wish I could tell you back that you have made some valid and reasonable points, but all you have really done is repeated the "I can't believe there is not a god because I don't understand where XYZ comes from," argument - in your case "Conscience" and admitted that you merely reinforce this to yourself regularly. I do not understand the then leap that this invisible super being then proceeded to write a book for you which happens to be a completely different book from the other big political religion.
There is much written about the way we reason and your faith is completely different to what we actually know.
In any case - if I was going to worship some invisible super being - I would want one with the foresight to at least write it the same for everyone and know what language I would be speaking.
The fact that I understand where the words in your book really came from - and you could too if you wanted - means I cannot accept anything you say other than note that the only reason you seem to believe there is a god is to make yourself feel better. The rest unfortunately makes absolutely no sense at all.
The one thing that separates us from most (not all) animals seems to be an awareness of our own mortality. We know we exist, we know we are alive and we know we are going to die.
And you are really missing out by not exploring some of the possibilities and capabilities I mentioned in my last post, because I have grown as a person by experiencing some of these things and learned a lot about myself and human nature - and you could also. But - your choice.Ok, Adult discussion time here;
I know what you are saying Mark, and I honestly test myself. That’s why I think I get looks from other Believers who do not.
I do ask myself why am I doing this?
Like this Koran burning crap and all of this Mosque hype, it destroys us, eats us up. I honestly agree.
I ask God to prove it, prayer, and in truth I do not get real answers, and so I read and I guess...that’s why I think it’s an answer, its subliminal through the re-enforcement of the words that come out of the page.
The Conscience is there, I do discern your meaning, and no not a fairy tail.
and I am not blind I do see the animals and some behavior that I ask myself is that basic, or more like a human. Elephants like Earnest pointed out, sometimes in my own Terrier. But the behavior appears not Human like to me, similar but not thought like human thought, but it may well be I have no way to know, or see it.
The Darwin theory though I just cannot get my head around it. To say you are here so it happened? There just has to me more than that, I agree watching animals you see the basics. And as we talk I am beginning to re-recognize those in humans to, especially around here, neighbors and such.
The People at the church I used to go to told me I was luke warm? Pastor told me I was way too deep I just have to accept it, that’s all.. I believe something is holding this all together, I just do not know how, so I search.
and In truth as I study more on this, and other subjects I am finding there is no found tie to bring it together, no real visible link. I choose because of my conditioning, yes. And it has been strong conditioning, very now that I look on it.
I have many interests and I have here in Nashville joined an Eastern class working on yoga and conditioning, and what you are saying is true, I have found some self controls, that’s why I got into this discussion, where normally I would not have. The Tai-Chi (spelling sorry) is excellent and an example of what you are saying. But again, just starting.
I do not hold it well, and loose the control, it is off and on. But I have noticed when I am painting, (my art work) I can go to that relaxed position, involved in the story on that canvas...I can control that well. So yes, I have internal controls and I can exercise them and use them. I am not strong at it. But I have never consciously practiced it.
I am semi-retired, classes, my Art work, my interests, writing, my hang-over from world travel along with other folks have opened me up much. I have been fortunate to have the funds to retire early.
and in truth Adult to Adult...the Older I am getting the more I do see the un-answered questions, some hard to admit to.
I am not closing down to anything, your making me think here, a lot actually.
But that process of re-affirmation does happen.Thanks for the honest response. I am glad you are looking, because there are some very interesting things to learn - both about yourself and human nature.
Your argument is basically the same though. You "cannot get your head around," proven scientific facts and the theories that rationally explain those facts because you already have the easy answer pounded into your head which contradicts it.
And you were the one that pounded it in - under the guidance of the self perpetuating belief system you were indoctrinated into at young age by the culture you were born into.
It takes work to remove this indoctrination and it means actually facing a number of deep rooted fears and taking a close look at yourself, which is what the monotheistic religions teach you not to do.
Good luck.
Once you release yourself from the notion that "there must be more than that..." you'll get your head around a great many more theories than just the origin of species. It is this notion of purpose and higher levels of existence that drives the religious mindset to seek those divine answers rather than just entertain what's going on in the world around them.
Thank you!
Bibles are just books and churches are just buildings, all man made. No proof at all.
Not a likely place to find truth in my view.
Just false belief. No, not afraid, I have been to church before, I even have a few friends who are clergymen.
They all admit to giving up believing years ago!
Lots of church leaders seem to be there for other reasons than belief.That sound about right. According to my friends they have many members in their churches like that. Many unemployable anywhere else.
My friends are there for good reasons (otherwise they would not still be friends.)
One runs a kids home that looks after a lot of kids which he donates his love to.
Another "Father John" runs an inner city church for street kids. He is getting old now, but he still has the respect of all the kids.
He can out cuss em for starters!
We have quite a few good church people in my city I reckon.I thought your long post was very sensible and straightforward. It contributed to the conversation well.
I guess you may have read my hub on god, I only have one.
I spent many recent years associated with a church where my son was a chorister working for his scholarship.
Fabulous people, they never spoke of religion to me or my son, they worked as an organisation getting people involved in helping others, so I have nothing but praise for their efforts to support the poor.
Individual churches do a lot of good, as do good corporations, clubs and organisations everywhere.
I see no reason to attribute good works to anything other than people in general.
Religious belief to me is just plain silly.
Nonsense. Fear of death is the reason for a belief in god; Controlling the sheeple is the reason for religion.
LOL at you evidence from NPR. 4.5 billion years to get here and 10,000 years of irrational beliefs is the reason they survive?
Not understanding your argument about half the planet thinking there is a god.
This some how means that Mcdonalds serve the best food because a lot of peopel eat it?So did I when I was 7.
Sadly so do some of mine habee!
I also like the salad.I think McDonnalds is a plot put here by Insurance companies to insure we can not qualify for long term life and all have pre-exhisting conditions!...
-
The advertising still works.
Advertising seems to follow the idea's of Cecil B who said "You will never go broke underestimating the taste of the general public!
I don't know where you live but McDonalds where I live has almost nothing in it except fat and sugar.
It's bad alright!You call that bread?
There is fat and sugar in a lot of food, it's just that with Mc Donalds it is ALL fat and sugar with little other food value. It makes me ill just thinking about it.
No it's not!
It's a testament to advertising and promotion of a franchise.Ya reckon? Tell that to a crooked car salesman! There's one born every minute works for them!
earnest I believe YGM
ps hows the flu? Did you get a flu shot before? So don't believe in thse
out
with a friends kiss
I am interested. Whenever someone has learnt how to learn it interests me.
It's all explainable without resorting to invisible entities.Exactly. Science knows a massive amount about life, the human mind, evolution, the universe, medicine and insanity.
Insanity is thinking fantasy is reality and science doesn't understand anything.Well I will laugh! Actually or jokingly blaming me for passing on a virtual flu is a bit suspect psychologically doncha think?
I am now virtually well, if you are enquiring as to my health.
I hope you feel better soon.I learnt an amazing thing about the flu. Like the common cold, it lasts about the same amount of time no matter what you do. Waiting is the only cure.
How then would you explain away all the information and empirical evidence accumulated since the first successful use of the galvanic probe.
Carl Jung alone covers acres of it.
You would suggest that the old guy who killed himself through his son dunnit story works? Good for you.lol...No bias there Earnest? I liked your honest and respectful post Golden
Would you like fries with that?
I believe !
But, off topic for a moment, it's a girl. Came 9 days late, and she is gorgeous!
It's a weird feeling. Kinda like when my girls were born, only not quite the same.
One day before my birthday, and 2 days after father's day.
Did I say
LOL.Congratulations! That's wonderful aka.
Thank you for your thoughts on this kulonuwun.
I agree how we treat people is very important.
It is best if we treat people well habitually as a part of our daily lives I believe.
Thanks. And..
Thank God (to use the phrase) for the internet and other technology.
I can get updates daily. Sydney's a bit far to just drop in for a quick visit.
Oh, and Thank God (to use the phrase, again) for Virgin for low airfares, too.- markbennisposted 13 years ago
0The rites of highly intelligent animals such as elephants adds nothing to this discussion that I can see.
Your beliefs about what you saw are a normal emotional response to the recognition by you that Elephants do grieve. As does all sentient life.
Well that is pretty certain.
And what do you say about my certainty?
Care to discuss where this certainty lives and what supports it?
Absolutely Wonderful! Its the word of God he is talking...The love Jesus Christ taught him
OK Jerami.
I hope we can have some more discussion here rather than goddunnit.
I would love to see the points of the original post properly addressed, thanks everyone.Prove it.
objective proof isn't going to change anyone's opinion on such a deep and controversial topic. reality is a subjective experience. i have had experiential proof for myself to bring me to the conclusion i am at. that, and it just makes the most sense to me. god is not a separate entity that created all of this. he is all of this, experiencing all of this. in order for the Light to be able to share it's diving beauty it formed a vessel meant to receive. the first cause and effect. they aren't two separate things, just different parts of the same thing. the initial building blocks for duality, which is what our whole physical reality is based upon.
quantum physics has led to the conclusion that we are all indeed connected through a universal life energy composed of pure potential. although string theory is indeed still a theory, it is the only conept that really logically explains reality. evolution is indeed a theory, but one would be denying the obvious to say it is false.
but quantum physicist have proven that subatomic particles react differently when being observed as compared to not. our intention effects their outcome. therefore by staring at the world so objectively you are severely limiting yourself. i hope i explained myself clearly. thank you for listening and thank you for the smiley face! i like those."in order for the Light to be able to share it's diving beauty it formed a vessel meant to receive"
I liked this thought very much.The mind is magnificent!
Your point about particles behaving differently when being observed seems valid. Good points.
Neither point leads me to believe in the crazed psychopath of formal religion as the source of life though.I'm pleased to know you overcame and gained strength from your past. That makes you what psychiatrists are fond of calling a survivor. Not everyone survives though do they?
As for death.
I think death is the loss of consciousness. My consciousness and everyone else's as well.
If I were to use the same approach to truth as religionists I would say it is already a certainty that we can halt death within 10 years.
In truth it could take 20 years. Two Australian scientists completed a 9 year project culminating in opening that door 2 years ago.
They described their discovery as like opening the door of a dark room and turning on the light.
They can now see what's inside, and it is one massive task to take this new knowledge to the next step.
The thing is, it is heaps of number crunching and computers are becoming extraordinarily fast, pulling research and development times back by years.
I'm sorry you had that experience unfortunately there are many others who have suffered the same.
During my time in business I hired two kids who had been abused by priests. Both were on the streets at night getting into trouble. Very angry kids!
With a lot of help from their friends and workmates eventually they both did very well I am pleased to say. I hope you did too!
Hi mate! I have a Greek friend in Melbourne with the same psychological profile as you!
He does a crap job on the suppression side though.You sound a little like my son, Homer. He married a whip-snap, sharp, beautiful, and wonderful woman. He is much better off for his decision, and is a much better person.
Glad you are so fortunate as to have found someone as wonderful as your wife. But the stallion still misses roaming through the herd, as we can tell....This stallion is too busy vacuuming, mowing the lawn, washing the dishes, and looking for his testicles to worry about the other mares.
But I have to give myself credit for 'marrying beautiful'Yep! That sounds like normal married life to me!
I used to collect beautiful wives.I hope you have twins then Greek One. They harness up well.
I use a whip on these two smaller ones, but I was easy on em till they turned 3.
I know!
I always was too easy going with kids!
Wives are sooo good at that!
Yes I have James and many others. Been reading psychology for many years.
The thing about religion is that it is a state of mind that is fear based.
Take away the fear and you take away the need for the religion.
This can be done with a small change in brain chemistry, so no intervention by an impossible omni-everything entity is required to make it all work out as a reasonable theory.
With the understanding we can already obtain the mind can recognise it's own religiosity, interpret it correctly and deal with the issues around it's fear.
It takes many years to deal with the issues, it hurts with every tiny bit of internal growth as the ego is dismantled from it's perch, and the few who try to deal with it have a long and difficult path.
It is so so much easier to do goddunnit, stop reading and growing and play the simple mind game of "devil in the corner"
Real.
He did say it was unanswerable.
You need to read more Jung. People do good things in and outside of religious organisations Libby.
What I am discussing is the evidence that we already have about the sub-conscious solution to an unconscious process.
We don't need more god fantasy, we need more awareness of self through the process of individuation. Mark Knowles offers some good paths to begin with above.
Thank you for the straight answer.
- AMBASSADOR BUTLERposted 13 years ago0
You know god? Care to elaborate?
An interesting mental exercise is to imagine you were born in the desert tribes in Afghanistan to a strict Muslim family instead of being born in a Christian country to a strict christian family.
Would you be able to see that you would possibly be cutting the limbs off people who "sinned"
Or do you want us to believe that you would be a devout christian in your devout muslim family still, in which case you would be a terrorist and probably killed in the war against christians if not by your own family.
See it gets very silly once you attempt to bring any form of thinking to the matter.I am not thankful to a god for being born in the right place. Why should there be a wrong place if that is the case!
There is nothing special about me, I am one more person.
I would gladly settle for much less to see an end to the suffering.
What gives you or I more right to life than the poor and desolate in the eyes of anyone? A god?
That would be a psychotic god then wouldn't it?
I don't attribute my good fortune to a god.
Too much world hunger for me to believe that. I am lucky because of where I was born and I know it.Thank you Randy.
I did nothing to be born in Australia. I guess if I was born in Afghanistan I would not be as "worthy."
No morals, no empathy and no understanding.
Just self aggrandisement and megalomania.
I still want to know how the christian born into a Muslim family idea works out, but I guess it's too hard to answer eh?
- AMBASSADOR BUTLERposted 13 years ago0
What Jung knows from his empirical evidence is that there is NO GOD.
Sure, your imagination and the beliefs you hold are within your mind, science studies that too.
Yet, here you are with a computer and internet connection, not to mention the many other things science has provided you which you fully take advantage of every day of your life.
Ignorance is the cost.
Yes, it can. That has already been accomplished. You should do your homework before making these types of comments.
Science does not admit miracles. Again, do your homework.
Provide documented examples and compare them to probabilities of guesswork and you'll have your answer.
But, science does more for you than anything else. If you hate science so much, why aren't living in a cave?
How is anyone supposed to know that answer?It is somewhat wrong. Science doesn't prove anything, it is only a method of understanding how our world works. It didn't replace religion either as religion is still here.
Faith based ideologies have not proven anything and unlikely ever will.
No, science did not state those things at all. Science is a method, not an arbiter of absolutes.
Perhaps, but that is what science is all about, the capacity to falsify any theory. That's how we learn things.
I see no reason to entertain the myths and superstitions of the Bronze Age, scientifically or otherwise.
The fact that belief in a God can't be falsified indicates it's fantasy enough to satisfy my mind.
That and the craziness of the story itself!
A sky fairy dunnit doesn't seem very scientific.Hey I just noticed!
Religious zealots can jump in and give me a free kickin!
I have posted 1 666 0 times!
That can't be an accident!
goddunnit!
♫♪♫ doodeedoodee doodeedoodee doodeedoodee doodeedoodee♫♪♫
♫♪♫ doodeedoodee doodeedoodee doodeedoodee doodeedoodee♫♪♫Promise it won't happen again. Just don't bite. I promise.
-
I done gone an git meself marked by god's little helper!!!!!!Heeelloo Earnie! What's Up My Man??!!!
Wed 10 am. conversed with twins. Very logical conversation, given my orders.
10.10 am. conversed with several insane people who believe the fairies run their lives and mine to.
10.11am Elicited some humour from a few of the regulars. It's all good mate!Oh, you are causing HAVOC in these forums! I feel bad for them! Give them a break Earnie! Let the dreamers dream, and the psychics foretell the future!
Oh I really don't mind what people believe, there is nothing to be done about belief besides education.
I object strongly to them flogging it as truth though!
Dangerous to all of mankind.Is that why we get along? Because I don't try to change people's minds?
No, I enjoy having my mind changed daily!
You are a funny person who does not try to sell fairies as facts and then suggest that I am off to the hot place.
Any proof and I am ok with changing my mind.
That is what is different about religionists. No capacity to change their mind. It's against their beliefs to be wrong! I'm waiting... if the economy continues this bad, I might end up selling fairies!
I may be making em and trying to flog them to you wholesale!
- ralwusposted 13 years ago0
Randy, I am confused... I thought you had no legs, no arms, no shoulders.
- ralwusposted 13 years ago0
Hahaha... For years I used to play out with bands - rock, blues bands - The first set would always go very well, but once the alcohol kicked we had a sudden urge to improvise! By the fourth set Steve Ray sounded like John Coltrane!
- ralwusposted 13 years ago0
I had my days of glory! Now, I sit in front of a screen and play a different kind of keyboard.
- ralwusposted 13 years ago0
I told you that Klara Wieck was just a pen-name.
Crush?! She's got you wrapped around her finger!
We will miss you. Take it easy Klara.
- ralwusposted 13 years ago0
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