Dem Says Better to Be Dismembered in the Womb Than to Eat Ramen
Cool beans, KFC!
But I'm afraid you may be in the minority from your party of choice!
Is it good? No, Abortions are not good. However, rights is precisely what you're talking about and the argument for the elimination of abortion fails, because of individual rights. As my hub on Rights vs Morals explains.
And, that's where you're wrong, unless you bring religion into the mix.
Again, are you bringing in religion?
Actually, wrong. And, my hub explains why.
Not to mention too much religious tripe to go along with it.
I guess this boils down to "where" or "how" rights are to come into play.
Some say rights are "god" given. And, then the "religious" argument ensues.
However, Rights are equally applied to all people who are born. Thus, no rights are to be applied to unborn. Giving or applying rights to an unborn negates the individual already granted rights for being born. Which, cannot happen.
If the argument goes on to those who want to complain about "how" government spends taxpayer's tax revenue, then I want the government to give back to the taxpayer all the money they have spent on wars, which I don't want my tax dollars spent on.
Enough said.Actually, your argument has been refuted by my hub on Rights VS Morals.
Goes to show you lack any understanding on your own role in this world. What a damn shame.
Not quite. But, since you seem to think I think that highly of myself, would be something else you wrong about. But, don't let that stop you from attempting to insult.
I agree humans are not perfect, but they need not be perfect to be able to protect the life of innocent unborn humans. If I am called "pushing the highest morality standard" to suggest people stop defending the killing of this human life (its not dead), that doesn't make sense really. Its just pushing a core base standard of morality. Its not being crazy religious or anything, its just human to defend what I am defending. Perfection isn't necessary, and I know its not what we are.
You can't just apply terms like they are fact, like "its just a human organism, vs a human life" and hope that makes all of this a 'tidy thing". Its incredibly untidy. You are really sharing your own personal views above, which I can totally appreciate, but know that we all have our own personal views just like you do. I think there is life all around us, and you don't have to kill something that isn't alive. LIfe needs to be stopped, growing life, beating heart etc. That is why I think the way I do.
All that while leaving religious views at the door.
I would be defending you at your preemie stage too. No need to hate me for my thoughts here. Not even sure exactly what you are disagreeing with me about.
And, where to you think that society as a whole would be right now, if it wasn't done? Just curious?
No it's not as you are thinking. I just want someone to pay attention. I'm not advocating abortion is good, please understand that. As I have already said in this thread, which apparently everyone has overlooked.
I'm advocating the rights of the individual.They are not individuals until viable on their own. It's my term- it's science.
Viability is what matters.
And until you do, the argument continues.
Unfortunately, until the father is able to give birth to a child, the father's rights are always going to be limited, because of the mother's rights.
But, limited, as I stated above.You're missing the point. They breath on their own, which is what makes them viable.
Breathing on their own is the only requirement for viability.
You're using a screwed up understanding of viability.
It should be understood, but has a lot of other influences distorting the actual facts.
I understand where you are coming from, but society cannot ever be perfect and what you're asking for isn't achievable. Can you see that?
Give it up, Cags.
There is only one authority, and that is the Bible.
If you didn't write the Bible, you have no authority.
Sorry. Don't shoot the messengerI think an unborn human person is just that. Its ok that we disagree, it won't be the first time.
You can call it an organism, if that makes you feel better. I know it makes many feel better. Its the same person though. We all know this. To all that stick up for the life of the human, at whatever the stage of life, I am proud to stand with YOU!You're right it's not the first time, but you're failing to understand science if that's what you think though. I'm going to make that clear.
It's not what I call it- it's what science makes the distinction of Life.
Same page is the problem...no one on the same page.
It comes out as a person, yes. This much is known as fact.
Agreed, Life should be protected, but make the proper distinction first, so everyone can be on the same page and moving forward to a good solution can be made. Otherwise, it's just the same arguments.I am not being unscientific to say that its human life, and that the location and stage makes a human life any less human or not. You are joining forces it seems with those that use semantics as a good excuse to take the life of innocents.
I simply disagree with that. You don't get to say that that life should be protected, except when......... (flll in the blank). The reasons that are beign given are stage of life, and location of that life. I disagree with that reasoning is all. Not just with you, but with all that hold that. In the mean time, we aren't "erring on the side of caution" when in doubt. We are goign ahead and taking the innocent life.
(not me, but my hard earned tax dollars are beign used for it, ugh!)
If you aren't advocating abortion, I applaud you. You sound like you have been taking the side of pro "choice" all this time. How is my view skewed exactly? You are lucky, because you got to live! I don't like that you suggest that the dead don't have to worry because they cant contemplate their "deadness", so to speak. That misses my point. I would have been there defending you, see!? Let me explain... Just because a dead person can't miss being alive, it doesn't mean that the fact that their life was taken from them isn't something that is wrong. So I disagree, that my statement is meaningly.
I sense your frustration, but my guess is that you are struggling because I am actually making fair points that are hard to refute. I am not assuming ANYTHING more about you than what you have shared here. You shared that you were premature, etc. It was NO put down to say you are lucky, for I think everyone on this board right now is lucky in the same way! I think that you are on the wrong side perhaps, because you take a stand on one side of things, but as we dig deeper, are finding you seem to actually agree with me more than you first thought. Then you act like "dealing with me is so awful?" No one is forcing you to answer me, and I am here just defending the idea that innocent human life should be defended. You keep coming up against that, but not necessarily disagreeing. So its hard for me to follow exactly where you stand.
I know it can be frustrating, but sometimes the path to the truth of things is filled with such angst. Its like we don't want what turns out to be true and right be just that. Don't be mad at me for that, be happy someone gives a rat's a** enough to go on about what seems to just make good sense with people like you.I am pro choice, but apparently not in your way of thinking. If you cannot keep up with the thread, I suggest you bow out.
You consider "Life" sacred in some manner? I got to live because my gave birth, it was her choice, not mine.
The dead are dead, anything else is religious tripe.
That's part of the problem. You cause more problems than solve, yet fail to realize it.
They cannot miss something they never had. DUH!
Actually, you're not, because you're not working with all the facts available, not to mention, you're religious bias is part of the problem.
I only agree with you that abortion is not good. Otherwise, we part company.
Where I stand? Mind your business. Plain and simple.
The path to truth? If you knew what that was, we wouldn't be having this conversation to begin with.
Again, we only agree that abortion is not good. Otherwise, we part company.
Seems like your understanding of viability needs adjustment.
Do you not read the threads you participate in or just things responded to you? Just curious.It breathes on it's own.
Yes it is, so what is your point.
Yes it does, but up to a point. If there was not host, then there is no child.
It is a distinctive organism until fully developed, reaching the point of viability.
It will be a human when it's done cooking, is that better.
Asking the same question twice within the same post isn't going to change the answer.
uncorrectedvision: "And I looked everywhere. I found modus ponens and modus tollens. I found inductive and deductive. I found argumentum ad nauseum: argumentum ad populum. I even found your favorite argumentum verbosium. I found Al Gore's favorite - ad hoc ergo propter hoc.
But I didn't find the logical argument or logical fallacy of "oh please.""
Should be set to music and belted on Broadway!
So you were just uttering someone's twisted interpretation of what was said. Good to know.
Ha! I knew YOU would laugh, Cags!
Like it is impossible to sneeze without closing your eyes, it is likewise impossible to laugh and be self-righteous at the same time.
Anyone else noticed that?- jerrylposted 13 years ago
0 I love George Carlin!
Yes, this thread is absurd, and I agree with every word of your rant.
Thank you, PP, for pointing out that I am ranting.
Proof once again, of the emotionality and utter futiity of this debate.
If I had my way we would reframe the "sides" of this argument.
One one side we would have "Pro-Birth"
(which is really what they are advocating).
On the other side we would have "Pro-Life"
(which is really what we are advocating -- a positive LIFE for all).
But since "Pro-Life" is already imprinted in our minds,
perhaps we should call ourselves "Pro-People" or "Pro-Community" or something that captures the widespread benefits to the woman and the community at large....Incredible. Okay, let's go with it. Let's take away cars from people who can't stop themselves from driving 10 miles over the speed limit. Let's require that all of our citizens carry computer chips so we can monitor those who are incapable of self-control: alcohol abusers can't buy alcohol, overweight people can't buy Twinkies, and compulsive gamblers can't use the ATM within 50 miles of a casino. Oh, and let's not stop there. Men who have fathered children but don't pay child support should not be allowed to procreate. Forced sterilization sounds good to me!
YEAH! This is the country of individual rights! YEAH! Go USA!
PP -- Lawdy, lawdy! Who's on a lucid, righteous rant now?
Well reasoned and very well stated! You go, PP!!
Evan -- I think you are attempting to add some levity, but this is one thread where levity will get you nowhere. Maybe you should stick with anarchy instead.Have we ever once solved any social issue on these forum pages?
If the pigs are flying, I have yet to see them-
What kind of utopian fantasy world do you inhabit, Brenda?
Have you ever had to try to enforce child support payments from an ex who is years behind?
Have you ever had your husband walk out on you and four toddler kids?
Or perhaps you know what it's like to have the fathers of your kids (the plural is intentional) doing time and thus unable to participate in the joys of parenthood?
The blatant sexism against women astounds me. Absolutely astounds me. If you want to have this argument- then it would be nice to figure out what argument are you really having?
Medical science says that life begins at fertilization. It's the basic beginning of life. Thus, a human organism is created. The destruction of a human organism is considered evil or bad, according to the highest morality standard. This level of morality according to many is the standard at which should be commonplace in a civilized society.
Who believes this is how it should be? Doesn't understand their own position. They claim to be fighting for "right to life", but fail to realize that under "right to life" is the right of choice, right to choose, right to decide how they live their life.
It is their right to do so, and it isn't anyone's right to get in their way of doing so. In case you haven't been paying attention lately, my posts have been increasing, due to many different topics. And, when the common person fails to understand their own rights, then their view about life becomes skewed. The view is skewed, because for the self-absorbed, self-centered religious debate. Where a god's will is to be done. However, these same people fail to recognize other people's rights, and begin to oppress them.
It's ridiculous. You want a specific moral standard, fine, it can be done, however, it will take three things to do it- (a)You keep your religious beliefs out of other people's life, (b) Increase access to proper care, guidance and education, and (c) Do it without infringing upon the rights of other people.
Therefore, the highest moral standard you want, you cannot have it, because individual rights retain power. You can argue all you want about semantics. The argument- it's a baby, fetus, child- are futile, because you lack to understand, each word describes a stage in the birthing process. It begins as an organism, develops into a fetus, then a baby, and produces a child. Only ignorance(lack of understanding science) would not know this.
The procedure offered by the medical establishment is a legal service, only because of individual rights. To outlaw it, oppresses individual rights of women. There can never be a perfect society with the highest moral standard- Humans are flawed people, accept it and move on.
UCV,
Your thought process is not as straightforward as it may seem from inside your head.
Skipping from PP being unconstitutional to pissing off the Europeans by sponsoring an F-1 team in conjunction with Red Bull... okay then!
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