Dealing With Contstructive Criticism/Advice
Well said! Want me to look at your story? I'm not always the nicest. (hence this forum) but I am truthful.
Will do very soon, gotta get offline right now. (baby is crying) but will check it out!
TY for that Cagsil! Wasn't really trying to promote my hubs as I currently don't really have anything hooked up to them to better my financial situation. Mostly using this as more of a social network and as a cure for boredom. Actually have had problems with people getting upset about my polite critiques and want those people to know they're welcome to critique my work in return. Terribly sorry I offended the rules of self promotion and it won't happen again.
Cags, I think the only faux pas here was that northweststarr put her post in makeover instead of maybe, hangout or knowledge exchange. Dealing with constructive criticism/advice is a great topic.
oopsy, I think this is my first forum and I just put it in the wrong spot... sorry guys... will do better next time....
No this is the perfect place for this topic, because when someone posts to extreme makeover, they can expect constructive criticism.
When I was new I put one hub here and only one person responded. What she said made me delete that hub lol.
It takes time to build up a protective shield around you. But we have to have one as writers. What I think is good, someone else might think is crap and vice-versa.
Everyone is different.
I see Lisa HW posted that she doesn't like someone emailing her to point out a missing comma, or a comma in a place it shouldn't be, where I would welcome that advice.
Not that I didn't know where the comma should be, rather that I suffer from a kind of blindness, in that I read a hub over as how I intended to write it, not how I actually wrote it.
Website Examiner did a series of hub critiques for those of us brave enough to submit a hub.
I send him (or her) one of my better hubs and I got a critique saying that I should spend more time checking spelling and grammatical errors before I hit the publish button.
I had read and re-read this hub several times, and simply did not see the errors until they were pointed out.
So yes if anyone reads any of my hubs and sees a glaring error, please tell me. Either on the comments (which I will delete afterwards) or by email.
Thanks guysSome authors would welcome that advice, especially new authors who have not yet built up a confidence in what they do.
Again, if they don't post something in this forum, Extreme Hub Makeover, they shouldn't be subjected to it, because they didn't ask for it.
But some of us still like our obvious typos to be pointed out.
Maybe I should post more hubs here, so that everyone can point out my mistakes to me, seeing as I keep missing them.
Edit: and gaining a nice backlink in the process"Again, if they don't post something in this forum, Extreme Hub Makeover, they shouldn't be subjected to it, because they didn't ask for it."
Yes that is exactly my point.. I was referring to this type of critique on someone's hub they published for their fans to read. If, however they published something and THEN asked for a critique- that's completely different.
and backlinks are smart
I'm pretty much in the "wait-until-someone-asks" for critique school-of-thought.
My own "thing", as a Hubber, is that I have no problem whatsoever with someone's disagreeing with something I've said, or with asking me to back up or clarify something I've said.
As a writer, and as someone who is used to handing in writing to editors or someone else who may want to make changes, I have no problem with any of that either. As far as I'm concerned, if someone is paying me to write something for them they have every right to do whatever they want to do with whatever I give them.
As a writer-and-Hubber, I don't mind if someone feels like being bothered pointing out a typo (although it's beyond me why anyone would take the time to send an e.mail about something like a comma he didn't think ought to be there
), I'm not interested in someone else's ideas about how I approached a piece of writing. I figure, everybody writes what he wants to write, how he wants to write it. If he's interested in getting suggestions on how it might be better he can ask.
There's no piece of writing that everyone is going to like, and much of the time what one person would have done is something the writer specifically didn't do for his own reasons.
I left another writing site because it went from calling itself, "a writing site", to calling itself, "a writers' collaborative" and expected people to see their own writing as part of a "team effort". For good, for ill - my writing is mine and something I do myself. It'll either succeed or fail. If someone likes it, great. If not, he can vote it down. One reason I shut off most of my comment boxes on Hubs was that I don't want to keep going back and re-visiting writing I consider "done and in the past".
My thinking is, if someone else thinks he can do a better job than I've done on a Hub, he should write his own. If I've hit "publish" it pretty much means I've through with pondering how the Hub has been written and calling it "done and over". 
Maybe that sounds obnoxious and unfriendly for me to say (I may be obnoxious at times, but I'm generally never unfriendly); but when it comes to most things I do in life, I'm not usually interested in anyone else's input on it. I didn't get rid of the comment boxes to avoid criticism of the content. I really just had to stop getting e.mails about comments (as much as I appreciated them) on ancient Hubs, to the point where it was getting to be a part-time job. That aside, though, I appreciate people's input on a discussion (and don't even mind the occasional nasty comment) - just not input on my writing, itself. I figure, at this stage in the game, it is what it is.
(I don't mean to make this sound like "reading the riot act" (because I know lots of people enjoy critiquing one another's actual writing. I know it's just that different people like different stuff, and only wanted to speak for myself (and anyone like me).
BUT, having said that (and I know I may be completely weird), but I write because I enjoy writing. I do want to (and do) earn from it. Other than that, though, I don't really care who reads, or likes, what I write. I just write, and then I'm done with it. (That's one reason I don't want to keep re-visiting it because of comments.)
One of the reasons I've been able to earn has been thanks to people who have commented on my Hubs. I know that and appreciate it and anyone's thoughtful (or mean) comments. In any case, I've been writing online for years now, so some things are going to either get too be too time-consuming, or just get "old". I've been writing offline since the early 1980's, so there's a point where one thinks, "If I haven't learned to be better by now, it isn't going to happen." Even so, though, there's a difference between "critique" of writing and "criticism" of the what the writing says.
People are different, though, and think differently. I figure those differences make for good discussions.
What a refreshing voice. Glad you popped in.
Is there some smiley face that says "being sweetly sardonic"?>is always happy to welcome the sarcastic<
I'd agree on the thing about "privately", but I still maintain that the only people who should be presuming to offer "constructive criticism" (which is a very different thing from offering feedback or kicking in on a the discussion) should be people in the "official capacity" of it (as with teachers, coaches, etc.) or people who have been asked.
People do have to be particularly careful with kids too, I think. My sister (now 60) still tells her "famous" story about how her kindergarten teacher told the class to draw a picture of the sun. She - in all conscientiousness and artistic ability - decided that the sun at sunset/sunrise (not sure) was the most beautiful. So she drew an orange sun. Her teach actually scorned her for choosing orange, and made a big, public, deal about how "everyone knows the sun is yellow".
Every so often my sister brings up that story again (usually when we're admiring an orange sun)
The point is (besides it being "nice" to be sensitive toward children/teens), sometimes the person doing the "constructive criticism" doesn't have a clue about what the artist/writer had in mind.It was devastating to her. She was four years old and "all happy" about school - and then this clown (who was like that anyway) did that.
My sister laughs about it now, but she'll usually add that she always wished she could go back as a grown up and point out to the woman that the sun is sometimes orange.
As for me, I just have the "bad attitude" of a fourteen-year-old because I've lived my whole life as a small person with an unintimidating face and voice; so I pretty much attract any number of people who presume to appoint themselves either mother, father, teacher, owner, or boss of me; and presume to believe they must know better about me, what I do, and my life than I do (even though I've been a capable adult now for - what - 35-plus years. So my thing is that if I want to learn something, want a critique, or want a teacher of one kind of another - I'll find someone whose judgment and abilities in their area I trust, and I'll listen to them.
Other than that, I have a real thing about ever presuming I have anything to teach anyone else about whatever it is they've created/done, and even an even bigger thing about someone else thinking I'm interested in their "teaching"/critiquing. (Again, unless everyone signed on for a group-critiquing kind of thing and everyone's interested in participating.) Either way, "critiquing" and "criticizing" are real button-pushers for me, as you can see. I can't possibly be alone in having lived a life fending off self-appointed teachers and "bosses of me", I don't think....
The only reason I bring it up is to point out to someone like the OP that if someone else doesn't receive unsolicited "critique" well, it might be that the other person thinks similarly to the way I do.@Lisa.. that is very interesting, yet sad. It makes sense that people would "assume' they should be your teacher, boss etc. based soley on your size and demeanor. I'm glad you pointed that out and it has given me ideas for character development in one of my novels
I've actually got a book on the back burner, but it's non-fiction and about the hidden ways The Women Movement hasn't particularly even noticed how far women haven't come in day-to-day dealings with people I hope your character wouldn't be a sad one, though, because it's actually kind of funny (although infuriating). It has, though, been a gift in many ways; because I see what I look like, and how I come across; and I know what a capable adult I am; and so I don't do what a lot of other people do (which is to assume that anyone smaller, less intimidating, or younger than I am is a child (ESPECIALLY IF THEY'RE - LIKE - 45!
) Oh well... It keeps me young at heart.
(Oh well. Don't mean to hijack the thread. It's a problem for a whole lot of women, though - some, more than others).
I do happen to being paying attention, and my next "real" project isn't starting until after the holiday - so I'm bored enough to enjoy a "debate"/discussion too.
I may not come across as a "barrel of laughs" on here (particularly this thread), but I'm always laughing at myself, and I don't take myself very seriously at all. I'm absolutely fine with something like someone I'm working for criticizing. And, believe it or not (although from some of my long forum posts someone would believe it), I've tend to have more to say about a lot of things than a lot of people. So it isn't that I'm some sullen, unfriendly, introvert who doesn't have a sense of humor. One of my friends is the younger of several siblings, all of whom tend to be freer with their opinions about what she does than she prefers. She'll always say how she looks around as if she's lost something and says, "Oh. I'm looking for that sign I had around my neck that said, "I'm interested in what you think." Point is, I'm not alone.
BUT, you're right. If you made a commented on someone's Hub, and they didn't like it, they could have just not approved it. Then again, I have to say that I've had the occasional comment (not critique of my writing, but critique of me, personally - and based on something the commenter only imagined about me), and I've kind of enjoyed posting their comment and "nicely putting them in their place" on the Hub. (There's where my sadistic side comes in, I guess.) I guess that's a case of "If you insult me, then I'll be back to address your insult - and guess which one of us is going to come away feeling satisfied..." (Not one of my proudest traits, I'll admit, but I justify it by telling myself I don't go around insulting people personally, or their work; but if they insult me "thems pretty much fightin' words". Ooo, I do like you...
I'm going to have to remember the "sign around the neck" comment as I'm the baby of 6 siblings. (see, I'm loud cause I had to be.) You are definitely free to open up a can on me if I ever criticize you. (Though I wouldn't, only how you wrote something, and then, probably only if I actually kind of liked it...) People who can't take an honest critique and opinion however, need to be poked at once in a while, though. Kinda like a campfire. If you don't challenge them, the flame might die down to low and then there would be entirely too many boring/uninspired hubs lying about. - (The sign-around-the-neck thing is one I've borrowed from my friend on occasion, but she's funnier in her enactment of the whole thing.) I suspect - in view of your willingness to debate - I like you too, except for that little issue you seem to have about needing to criticize people. (;lol).
Anyway, my question about that poking the campfire thing: But why? Why not just leave people alone? (I need you to know that at this point I'm actually laughing in person - not just on the screen. )
I have to say that I know I have tons and tons of really boring/uninspired Hubs on here. (I'm not being funny or exaggerating. I hate a whole lot of my Hubs - but the ones I hate are are that way because I've always tried to straddle some line between making them useful/informative but also writing what I want to write. For my purposes on here, it's how my writing on here has seemed to have built up. I do professional writing elsewhere, so I only have so much energy for my spare-time writing. It's mediocre - or nothing for me. For someone like me (and this isn't particularly about me, but I'm just an example), I'm here on that low flame after (or alongside) a day of more heavy-duty writing (or, if I write for myself but not for immediate money, then the flame is high again; but I"m not earning money for it). So, in all my exhaustion (but also enthusiasm for writing for any number of reasons), I've had to settle for a lot of the stuff I've got on here. It isn't going to get me a Pulitzer Prize, but I won't be the only Hubber in that boat. BUT - I mean - stuff in newspapers and magazines can be pretty uninspired and boring to a lot of people too. Some writing is OK if it's boring. (Or at least it has to be OK as far as I'm concerned. ) (By the way, I'm a middle child - hence the trollish personality and attitude problem, I guess. )
fetty, I should probably not post more here (just because I've already had so much to say), but I can understand what you're saying about having been a teacher. Also, these days there's the big push on for increasing quality on the site, and that's not lost on me either.
The only thing (and other side of that) is that there are people like me, who (besides any "issues" I've already expressed) have been away from school for close to 40 years and who (respectfully, and I do mean that) just aren't interested in having someone else appoint himself my teacher. :
My thing is that if I'm working in some settings I do aim for perfection in what I produce. On here, I take my writing seriously and aim for decent quality; but I don't aim for perfection, considering my own writing purposes/needs when it comes to this particular writing. I wish you could tell that I'm saying this in a friendly, understanding, tone; but I've had teachers comment on some minor thing or another in my stuff. I always think, "I got my A's in English decades ago. I know how to write. I do take a few liberties (mostly in the interest of trying to keep my writing less formal at times), and I'm sure I mess up with some punctuation here or there. Unless it's a typo, when I commit a grammar infraction it's often by choice or just not stopping to double-check on the correct use of something. It's my choice to be a little more relaxed in this particular setting (and since it's neither school nor "real" work). Right or wrong, the point is that I've had people assume I'm a "budding writer" just because I write on a site like this - and I'm not. I'm in my 50's and have been writing (offline) since the early 1980's.
So, as someone who has been on the receiving of well intentioned teachers (and you're far from the only teacher or retired teacher who has those urges you do ( ) any number of times, I do have to politely (and, again, respectfully) say that it does irk the heck out me. I don't think I know absolutely every last, little, thing about grammar, and I'm not someone who thinks I write with perfection. My thing, though, is that at this point in my life (and especially after some pretty difficult things in that life), I just don't care about achieving perfection on here. Also, (and here's where middle-aged people can get obnoxious, I know) I just figure if there are some things I haven't perfected by now it isn't going to happen.
I don't think it's right for people to respond to your well intentioned suggestions in a fresh or scornful way. It's just that I, personally, am not interested in any remarks beyond, maybe, the pointing out of a typing error or else questioning some point I've made. I don't want to seem melodramatic; but with some of the stuff I've had in my life, I kind of think it's a little bit of a miracle that I can whip up 5000 words in a couple of hours, and then another 7000 words a few hours later. I don't expect a well intentioned "critic" to know my business, but that doesn't change the fact that I get irked if someone makes an issue over something like punctuation. That's why I think it's better when people wait to be asked before volunteering grammar or writing critique/tips. (Based only on what's on some Hubs or forum threads on this site, I know I'm far from alone in having enough stuff in life to make some grammar errors seem pretty unimportant.)
@northwestern Maybe you should work on the delivery of your critique. Telling someone, - unsolicited- "this is good, this is good- dump everything else because it's archaic" is not only just your opinion but is unnecessary and unwarranted if it wasn't at first asked for. If we were in a writing workshop where critiques were expected then it would be appropriate. Moreover, writing on your own posts that my work "inspired you but that my poem was 'vague'" is once again, crossing the line. I'm not sure why you would feel you have earned the right to publicly insult someone else's poetry. Someone by the way whom is a very accomplished poet and writer and knows a thing or two about creative writing. And standing behind the idea that "if it's published then you want critiques" is wrong. As I said before, if I wanted someone's critique/opinion then I would ask for it, and I usually only ask people that have illustrated work that I believe is better than mine.
With all that said, I'm sure your passive remarks have brought people to my hubs - so thanksGlad to help you out darling!
Your hub score is going up, up, up Great job! (As far as publicly insulting your poetry, I did originally put a disclaimer on the comment that you didn't need to approve it so you were actually the one who publicly insulted your poetry, not me.) You're absolutely right that my critique was unsolicited... (I think you're only whining because you half-@$$ed that one and you know I'm actually right, your poem was unspecific/vague without the imagery that would've taken it to the next level) NOW I'M PUBLICLY INSULTING YOUR POETRY. (Hope everyone else is entertained by this, I know I am )So I take it, you won't be following me? Remember, this was my opinion only. Didn't actually mean to insult anyone when I made the review. I could have been nicer, I suppose, but then we wouldn't be havig this wonderful discussion. Plus, he said he was a creative writing instructor. I was approaching his work in a manner that gave him the benefit of the doubt. If he'd been an unaccomplished every-day Joe. I would have been a whole lot easier on him. Also, once again, I told him he didn't need to display the comment as it was just MY OPINION.
The Pocahontas line was not on R. S. Hutchinson's poem. Thank you very much. That was actually another creative writing teacher who got a kick out of it and received it in the manner that it was meant to be received. I wasn't nearly as harsh to Hutchinson. Yes, I can be harsh to other people as well as to myself... Also agree that terminally rhyming poetry IS boring. Luckily, if you'd read further, not all my stuff is like that... Or maybe it is... I'll do a quick run through of what I've posted to check it out. That's a good criticism. Ouch. Were you reading the latest hub I posted on broad or general poetry? It was meant to be like that.
Showing off stuff I normally wouldn't publish. Or the humor hub? Be specific please, that was a parody and meant to be rhyming. I was harsh to Pocahontas Guy, but I'm not always like that. I do generally try to censor myself a little... and he gave me license to say what I really thought. In the broad poetry hub, I joked that I should work for Hallmark. Is this where the "greeting cards" slam comes in?
Agree that everyone having the same views WOULD be boring. In the end, I'm mostly regurgitating my own education and personal views. I believe the quote you're looking for is "Judge not lest you be judged."
On another note, I am likely insane. That's what happens when an introspective person leaves the workforce to be a full time mommy to three kids in an unfamiliar environment.
--(Just tired of the normal B.S. so decided to make my own.)
Thanks for reading whatever hub you did read and stay tuned! I'm a work in progress...
I think it depends on what someone defines as "a writing site". Some people figure all the usual stuff that's included in the "help" section is what they're signing up for. Others apparently expand the definition to include critiquing other people's actual writing (as opposed to commenting on the ideas presented). That's yet another case of nothing more than people thinking differently and expecting different things.
To be candid, I know that my own stuff is not perfect; but if you look at the loads of stuff on here that's absolutely awful, I just don't think the relatively minor thing, here or there, that shows up in my stuff is worth worrying about. Tidying up is always useful, but - really - some things are screaming for tidying up. Other stuff really isn't that big of a mess in the first place.
My own thing is that I don't get "upset" over it (because I plain, old, don't give enough of a rat's bottom about a lot of stuff that goes on here). It is that I do get irked (which is different from "upset"), but I also think if people want to feel free to critique then people who are irked by it ought to feel equally free to express their own views as well.
Sometimes what some people (writers) need is not a less demanding site, but a MORE demanding one - one with editors who address any flaws in writing, and one on which "everybody and his brother" doesn't see it as his job to edit everyone else's stuff. I'm not angry or being confrontational, or anything. It just may go back to whether someone views a site like this as "at least sort of professional" (and business) or as a social thing. In professional writing everybody and his brother doesn't kick in on editing. And if it's nothing but social - then why worry about grammar at all?
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